If Apple's marketing says that the laptops support "Millions of colors" then they are stating that they have an 8 bpc display. a 6 pbc display will not support "Millions of colors" If no laptop in the world has an 8 bpc display then it is even worse because it shows their arrogance. They thought they could get away with stating something that is obviously false to a great many people.
I am not one of those people as I didn't know that laptop displays were 6 bit. Is this true of all LCDs or just laptops? Are the Cinema displays 6 bpc as well?
I'm not too sure of most laptop LCDs and I couldn't find any info easily online. 6-bit desktop LCDs are pretty common in the value purchases. Most of the 22" LCDs out today use 6-bit panels I believe. However there are 8-bit panels as well. Not sure on Apple, but Dell sells their 8-bit panels as their "Ultrasharp" brand.
I love hearing the legal opinions of someone who starts their post with "cept"! You're conveniently forgetting the punitive damages that a company faces, and the incentive it provides them to not f*** over consumers.
Informal communications -- do me a favor, look it up. On the other hand, If you were seriously expecting me to use the Queen's English in each post to the AI message board I have a reply for you. Bugger off.
"You're conveniently forgetting the punitive damages"
You are kidding right? Punitive damages... you mean like punishing a company (like Ford did in a town near me) for illegal dumping crap in the water & soil? Sure Ford will pay for the clean-up and some fines that go to the state EPA never to be seen again but do you really think it ends their? Hell no, Ford simply add $100 more bucks to the cost of the F150 for the next 5 years.
Here's a little tip for ya...
Shit always rolls down hill... Politicians are at the top of the hill, followed closely by corporations and perhaps the churches and finally at the bottom of the hill is the rest of us - "The great unwashed masses" that always foot the bill one way or the other.
The dithering is a sensible way to obtain millions of colours from a TN panel. Sure, it isn't an 8-bit panel, but on the other hand their batteries last 4+ hours and the laptop is under an inch thick.
This is the biggest problem for individuals who are looking at purchasing an LCD monitor. Most manufacturers do not list the color depth of their display. Even fewer will list the actual per-color depth. If the manufacturer lists the color as 16.7 million colors, it should be assumed that the display is 8-bit per-color. If the colors are listed as being 16.2 million or 16 million, consumers should assume that it uses a 6-bit per-color depth. If no color depths is listed, it should be assumed that monitors of 12ms or faster will be 6-bit and the 20ms and slower panels are 8-bit."
- If the manufacturer lists the color as 16.7 million colors, it should be assumed that the display is 8-bit per-color.
- If the colors are listed as being 16.2 million or 16 million, consumers should assume that it uses a 6-bit per-color depth.
Apple simply states 'millions' in the tech specs I've seen... Nowhere does it state "16.7 million colors" - if it did they would need to be using (slower) 8 bit displays instead of (faster) 6 bit displays.
I really don't think these folks have a leg to stand on unless they can produce something from Apple indicating the laptop displays are "8 bit color" **or** they indicate the displays are capable of displaying "16.7 million colors".
well, seems liek this has many factors which could cause a spanner in the works...
its strange but you sift through the complaint and the crux of it rests on a few very basic, but not minor, details. At first it reads like 'yet another' suit against Apple where a patent infringement has occured or some disgruntled prat is suing cause they feel hard done-by that they didn't think of the idea first...but looks like there's maybe more to it.
Apple state, not imply, that the screens on their MB and MBPs are capable of a much wider gamut than they can achieve. Its not great to be honest, and as a photographer I know that you shouldn't rely on a laptop for all your editing...its best done on a big screen where its easier (I won't go into specifics as its pretty obvious)
The next point implies Apple's customer care is sub-par with regards to it's marketing and approach in all other areas, defective parts do get replaced but failing to address issues without serious consideration and just dismissing them is not good. Especially if it is in fact true (with evidence).
The upshot of this could go a number of ways:
Apple change the wording of their adverts in as much as not state 'millions of colours'
Apple own up to mistreatment of customers in certain issues and devote themselves to correcting their mistakes
The proof? The usual parade of class-action wh*res is attacking it too. Oh, look, how we've grown! Note the jurisdiction, where the Hon. William Lerach and his followers hold sway. Watch out, enGadget, for causing all those stockholders distress and a one-day loss of more than a billion which recovered fully the next day.
As others have noted, this is a suit that is begging to be settled to end the bad publicity, after which all the people who sign on will get a free USB dongle or something, and the lawyers will make off with 60% or more of the award -- the standard one-third plus expenses for mailing out all those letters and paying out the $20 checks to 3,000 people.
Not that I'm for "lawsuit reform," because that's all structured to favor big business. I think some higher hurdles for allowing it to proceed might be in order, though.
Technically their displays do produce millions of colors, just through an analog function (dithering). In any case, the main complaint in the suit is about a band of light at the bottom of the display that radiates upward, distorting the color image. Apple will fix this with a firmware update.
Quote:
Originally Posted by laurence13
If Apple's marketing says that the laptops support "Millions of colors" then they are stating that they have an 8 bpc display. a 6 pbc display will not support "Millions of colors" If no laptop in the world has an 8 bpc display then it is even worse because it shows their arrogance. They thought they could get away with stating something that is obviously false to a great many people.
I am not one of those people as I didn't know that laptop displays were 6 bit. Is this true of all LCDs or just laptops? Are the Cinema displays 6 bpc as well?
If Apple's marketing says that the laptops support "Millions of colors" then they are stating that they have an 8 bpc display. a 6 pbc display will not support "Millions of colors" If no laptop in the world has an 8 bpc display then it is even worse because it shows their arrogance. They thought they could get away with stating something that is obviously false to a great many people.
Apple are stating the displays support millions of colours using a 6 bit per channel display in conjunction with dithering. This is how all budget LCD panels and laptop panels work. The dithering works pretty well, most people don't notice it. The graininess appears to be a graphics chip driver issue (someone above mentioned that rebooting into Windows fixed it) rather than a display issue, or it could be a problem with the Intel graphics hardware (there's enough problems there already, this wouldn't surprise me).
Imagine temporally dithering each component (R, G, in a 6-bit panel. Flickering between two adjectent values simulates the value midway between, effectively giving you a 7-bit panel. 2^21 = 2 million, which would meet Apple' definition. If you altered the timing you could simulate an 8-bit panel as well, which is probably what TN panels do to get 16m colours.
Quote:
I am not one of those people as I didn't know that laptop displays were 6 bit. Is this true of all LCDs or just laptops? Are the Cinema displays 6 bpc as well?
The Cinema displays are 8 bits per channel due to using a more power hungry type of LCD technology that is also more expensive. Cheaper panels use 6-bit TN panels however, e.g., Dell E225 (not 2207W, that's 8 bit I think).
10bpc LCDs are also starting to appear on the market.
The Cinema displays are 8 bits per channel due to using a more power hungry type of LCD technology that is also more expensive.
And slower... 8 bits per color impacts negatively on response time (it has to)... Which is why 'leet gamers' had always shied away from LCD panels (especially in the beginning) since they were noticeably slower especially when compared to the behemoth CRT they had sitting on their desk.
Though I sometimes find it hard to tell the difference, I still use my Sony CRT as the main monitor (I have a 21" LCD as 2nd monitor) to do my color correction. If it's true that Apple falsely stated somewhere that their LCDs can show more than 6-bit colors then they should either give out full refunds or offer some sort of rebate to customers? as much as I hate the idea that the @#$% lawyers will 200 million for this.
The human eye can distinguish between over 200,000 colors, but not millions. The average persons eyes change as they age, which is why older people have different color preferences than younger folks. Color is totaly perceptive, and also associative. If you were to start to edit a photograph in one location and then looked at it in different light, it might look awful. What you had for lunch can affect your color perception.
No serious professional would consider color work on a laptop. But lot's of other image work can certainly be done, and that's why portables outsell towers 10 to 1.
This suit is just another waste of money, time, ink.
Perhaps your age is more like your post count. Yes, one tests a product. No shit. What the suit is alleging is that displays get grainy and what not--in other words they DEGRADE after purchase. It is also alleging that Apple has engaged in false advertising and negligent customer service practices. Those are very serious concerns, and ones that seem well founded to me.
So glad you started that off with a gratuitous insult....
I have an MBP; if these "persons" actually *had* a case, mine would be subject to the same sub-standard screen they claim Apple is foisting off on their customers. It is not, ergo, no case - oh, what's that? they degrade? you mean, their performance suffers over time? you mean like everything else in the world? Sorry, Sparky: my MBP is nearing the 18-month mark, and I use it 8-10 hours a day, every day - my screen is, and has been ,crystal-clear, sharp and gorgeous.
In a true class-action situation, all or most MB/P screens would be subject to the claimed defect; not the case: just a couple monkeys fishing in deep pockets. *YAWN*
So remember. kids, jump on every bandwagon that goes by - who knows *where* you'll end up!
[QUOTE=alansky;1083500]"The matter is of particular concern to MacBook and MacBook Pro users who rely on the accuracy of the displays for graphic use, such as photography..."
What a bunch of bull crap! No self-respecting professional in his (or her) right mind would ever rely on a laptop screen for critical photo editing...
......
Since lugging a full sized display is somewhat impractical, Mac Book Pros are used by photographers and art directors on location all the time.
As to Apple's intimidation tactics with defect issues, I experienced that when I bought a MacBook G4. The track pad was defective but they claimed, rather strongly, that the reason it didn'y work was because I used hand lotion, and nearly every associate in the store was called upon to convince me that was true. Fortunately, I'd owned previous model Apple laptops that functioned just fine, with or without moisturized hands, so I didn't buy into that. I've also had posts deleted in their support section if I complained too strongly about an issue.
I've owned and loved Apple computers for 20 years, but their tactics are sometimes closer to the Church of Scientology than you might think.
It doesn't do Apple any good to be loyal to their products, no matter what. That kind fanatism only encourages any dishonest dealing.
I remember seeing some specs on the new Samsung LED LCD 15.4" display that could end up in the next MBP. I shuddered when it said it only supported 6-bits per channel or 262K colors. Here's the link: Samsung LED backlit display
Apple's tech specs for the 15.4" MBP reads: 15.4-inch (diagonal) TFT display, support for millions of colors;
If it's only capable of displaying 262,000 colors then I call that false advertising. Why should we have to parse the term "support for?" That's misleading.
What Apple needs to do is be honest or put the quality in that we expect. The goal of a class action suit like this is to get the company to do the right thing.
What the suit is alleging is that displays get grainy and what not--in other words they DEGRADE after purchase.
Yeah. :-) Everyone knows that LCD/TFT displays loose about 1 bit of color per year and become useless after 6 or 8 years...
Ok outside the joke, probably, everyone also knows that Apple uses LG Philips screens in (*at least some of*) its notebooks, and LG Philips guys just do not produce laptop screens with more than 6-bit color -- see http://www.lgphilips-lcd.com/homeCon...prd300_j_e.jsp for LG laptop screen details -- except for some 20-inch model (did anyone see 20-inch notebook already?)
So, this is all another ridiculous money-srewing suite. Just wonder, how Apple would come out of it... :-(
Since lugging a full sized display is somewhat impractical, Mac Book Pros are used by photographers and art directors on location all the time.
As to Apple's intimidation tactics with defect issues, I experienced that when I bought a MacBook G4. The track pad was defective but they claimed, rather strongly, that the reason it didn'y work was because I used hand lotion, and nearly every associate in the store was called upon to convince me that was true. Fortunately, I'd owned previous model Apple laptops that functioned just fine, with or without moisturized hands, so I didn't buy into that. I've also had posts deleted in their support section if I complained too strongly about an issue.
I've owned and loved Apple computers for 20 years, but their tactics are sometimes closer to the Church of Scientology than you might think.
It doesn't do Apple any good to be loyal to their products, no matter what. That kind fanatism only encourages any dishonest dealing.
Yeah, you sound very credible. Where did you say you bought a MacBook G4 again? I've never heard of it. You're not making all that stuff up are you?
If it's only capable of displaying 262,000 colors then I call that false advertising. Why should we have to parse the term "support for?" That's misleading.
Google search 16.2 million colors lcd
You'll find its common and there for accepted practice to have 16.2 million colors as a feature of 6 bit LCD panels. However if the feature is claimed as "16.7 million colors" then they must be talking about 8 bit.
Comments
If Apple's marketing says that the laptops support "Millions of colors" then they are stating that they have an 8 bpc display. a 6 pbc display will not support "Millions of colors" If no laptop in the world has an 8 bpc display then it is even worse because it shows their arrogance. They thought they could get away with stating something that is obviously false to a great many people.
I am not one of those people as I didn't know that laptop displays were 6 bit. Is this true of all LCDs or just laptops? Are the Cinema displays 6 bpc as well?
I'm not too sure of most laptop LCDs and I couldn't find any info easily online. 6-bit desktop LCDs are pretty common in the value purchases. Most of the 22" LCDs out today use 6-bit panels I believe. However there are 8-bit panels as well. Not sure on Apple, but Dell sells their 8-bit panels as their "Ultrasharp" brand.
I love hearing the legal opinions of someone who starts their post with "cept"! You're conveniently forgetting the punitive damages that a company faces, and the incentive it provides them to not f*** over consumers.
Informal communications -- do me a favor, look it up. On the other hand, If you were seriously expecting me to use the Queen's English in each post to the AI message board I have a reply for you. Bugger off.
"You're conveniently forgetting the punitive damages"
You are kidding right? Punitive damages... you mean like punishing a company (like Ford did in a town near me) for illegal dumping crap in the water & soil? Sure Ford will pay for the clean-up and some fines that go to the state EPA never to be seen again but do you really think it ends their? Hell no, Ford simply add $100 more bucks to the cost of the F150 for the next 5 years.
Here's a little tip for ya...
Shit always rolls down hill... Politicians are at the top of the hill, followed closely by corporations and perhaps the churches and finally at the bottom of the hill is the rest of us - "The great unwashed masses" that always foot the bill one way or the other.
Punitive damages.... that's a good one alright.
D
The dithering is a sensible way to obtain millions of colours from a TN panel. Sure, it isn't an 8-bit panel, but on the other hand their batteries last 4+ hours and the laptop is under an inch thick.
Found on the net:
"How to Tell if an LCD is 8-Bit or 6-Bit
This is the biggest problem for individuals who are looking at purchasing an LCD monitor. Most manufacturers do not list the color depth of their display. Even fewer will list the actual per-color depth. If the manufacturer lists the color as 16.7 million colors, it should be assumed that the display is 8-bit per-color. If the colors are listed as being 16.2 million or 16 million, consumers should assume that it uses a 6-bit per-color depth. If no color depths is listed, it should be assumed that monitors of 12ms or faster will be 6-bit and the 20ms and slower panels are 8-bit."
- If the manufacturer lists the color as 16.7 million colors, it should be assumed that the display is 8-bit per-color.
- If the colors are listed as being 16.2 million or 16 million, consumers should assume that it uses a 6-bit per-color depth.
Apple simply states 'millions' in the tech specs I've seen... Nowhere does it state "16.7 million colors" - if it did they would need to be using (slower) 8 bit displays instead of (faster) 6 bit displays.
I really don't think these folks have a leg to stand on unless they can produce something from Apple indicating the laptop displays are "8 bit color" **or** they indicate the displays are capable of displaying "16.7 million colors".
Dave
its strange but you sift through the complaint and the crux of it rests on a few very basic, but not minor, details. At first it reads like 'yet another' suit against Apple where a patent infringement has occured or some disgruntled prat is suing cause they feel hard done-by that they didn't think of the idea first...but looks like there's maybe more to it.
Apple state, not imply, that the screens on their MB and MBPs are capable of a much wider gamut than they can achieve. Its not great to be honest, and as a photographer I know that you shouldn't rely on a laptop for all your editing...its best done on a big screen where its easier (I won't go into specifics as its pretty obvious)
The next point implies Apple's customer care is sub-par with regards to it's marketing and approach in all other areas, defective parts do get replaced but failing to address issues without serious consideration and just dismissing them is not good. Especially if it is in fact true (with evidence).
The upshot of this could go a number of ways:
Apple change the wording of their adverts in as much as not state 'millions of colours'
Apple own up to mistreatment of customers in certain issues and devote themselves to correcting their mistakes
Apple does nothing.
...?
I love hearing the legal opinions of someone who starts their post with "cept"!
You're conveniently forgetting the punitive damages that a company faces, and the incentive it provides them to not f*** over consumers.
What's up with you trashing every poster who gives arm-chair legal analysis? It's a forum, and people chime in. You're pissing into the wind here.
As others have noted, this is a suit that is begging to be settled to end the bad publicity, after which all the people who sign on will get a free USB dongle or something, and the lawyers will make off with 60% or more of the award -- the standard one-third plus expenses for mailing out all those letters and paying out the $20 checks to 3,000 people.
Not that I'm for "lawsuit reform," because that's all structured to favor big business. I think some higher hurdles for allowing it to proceed might be in order, though.
If Apple's marketing says that the laptops support "Millions of colors" then they are stating that they have an 8 bpc display. a 6 pbc display will not support "Millions of colors" If no laptop in the world has an 8 bpc display then it is even worse because it shows their arrogance. They thought they could get away with stating something that is obviously false to a great many people.
I am not one of those people as I didn't know that laptop displays were 6 bit. Is this true of all LCDs or just laptops? Are the Cinema displays 6 bpc as well?
Or, even better, bought Apple shares before the Engadget news release, only to see it at a loss?
If Apple's marketing says that the laptops support "Millions of colors" then they are stating that they have an 8 bpc display. a 6 pbc display will not support "Millions of colors" If no laptop in the world has an 8 bpc display then it is even worse because it shows their arrogance. They thought they could get away with stating something that is obviously false to a great many people.
Apple are stating the displays support millions of colours using a 6 bit per channel display in conjunction with dithering. This is how all budget LCD panels and laptop panels work. The dithering works pretty well, most people don't notice it. The graininess appears to be a graphics chip driver issue (someone above mentioned that rebooting into Windows fixed it) rather than a display issue, or it could be a problem with the Intel graphics hardware (there's enough problems there already, this wouldn't surprise me).
Imagine temporally dithering each component (R, G,
I am not one of those people as I didn't know that laptop displays were 6 bit. Is this true of all LCDs or just laptops? Are the Cinema displays 6 bpc as well?
The Cinema displays are 8 bits per channel due to using a more power hungry type of LCD technology that is also more expensive. Cheaper panels use 6-bit TN panels however, e.g., Dell E225 (not 2207W, that's 8 bit I think).
10bpc LCDs are also starting to appear on the market.
The Cinema displays are 8 bits per channel due to using a more power hungry type of LCD technology that is also more expensive.
And slower... 8 bits per color impacts negatively on response time (it has to)... Which is why 'leet gamers' had always shied away from LCD panels (especially in the beginning) since they were noticeably slower especially when compared to the behemoth CRT they had sitting on their desk.
Dave
No serious professional would consider color work on a laptop. But lot's of other image work can certainly be done, and that's why portables outsell towers 10 to 1.
This suit is just another waste of money, time, ink.
You're kidding right...
Why don't you show me **any** product that doesn't degrade over time... Pet rocks and sand don't count.
D
Leave your pet rock out for a few thousand years and I guarantee it will degrade nicely over time..
Perhaps your age is more like your post count. Yes, one tests a product. No shit. What the suit is alleging is that displays get grainy and what not--in other words they DEGRADE after purchase. It is also alleging that Apple has engaged in false advertising and negligent customer service practices. Those are very serious concerns, and ones that seem well founded to me.
So glad you started that off with a gratuitous insult....
I have an MBP; if these "persons" actually *had* a case, mine would be subject to the same sub-standard screen they claim Apple is foisting off on their customers. It is not, ergo, no case - oh, what's that? they degrade? you mean, their performance suffers over time? you mean like everything else in the world? Sorry, Sparky: my MBP is nearing the 18-month mark, and I use it 8-10 hours a day, every day - my screen is, and has been ,crystal-clear, sharp and gorgeous.
In a true class-action situation, all or most MB/P screens would be subject to the claimed defect; not the case: just a couple monkeys fishing in deep pockets. *YAWN*
So remember. kids, jump on every bandwagon that goes by - who knows *where* you'll end up!
What a bunch of bull crap! No self-respecting professional in his (or her) right mind would ever rely on a laptop screen for critical photo editing...
......
Since lugging a full sized display is somewhat impractical,
As to Apple's intimidation tactics with defect issues, I experienced that when I bought a MacBook G4. The track pad was defective but they claimed, rather strongly, that the reason it didn'y work was because I used hand lotion, and nearly every associate in the store was called upon to convince me that was true. Fortunately, I'd owned previous model Apple laptops that functioned just fine, with or without moisturized hands, so I didn't buy into that. I've also had posts deleted in their support section if I complained too strongly about an issue.
I've owned and loved Apple computers for 20 years, but their tactics are sometimes closer to the Church of Scientology than you might think.
It doesn't do Apple any good to be loyal to their products, no matter what. That kind fanatism only encourages any dishonest dealing.
Apple's tech specs for the 15.4" MBP reads: 15.4-inch (diagonal) TFT display, support for millions of colors;
If it's only capable of displaying 262,000 colors then I call that false advertising. Why should we have to parse the term "support for?" That's misleading.
What Apple needs to do is be honest or put the quality in that we expect. The goal of a class action suit like this is to get the company to do the right thing.
What the suit is alleging is that displays get grainy and what not--in other words they DEGRADE after purchase.
Yeah. :-) Everyone knows that LCD/TFT displays loose about 1 bit of color per year and become useless after 6 or 8 years...
Ok outside the joke, probably, everyone also knows that Apple uses LG Philips screens in (*at least some of*) its notebooks, and LG Philips guys just do not produce laptop screens with more than 6-bit color -- see http://www.lgphilips-lcd.com/homeCon...prd300_j_e.jsp for LG laptop screen details -- except for some 20-inch model (did anyone see 20-inch notebook already?)
So, this is all another ridiculous money-srewing suite. Just wonder, how Apple would come out of it... :-(
(Pardon my English)
Since lugging a full sized display is somewhat impractical, Mac Book Pros are used by photographers and art directors on location all the time.
As to Apple's intimidation tactics with defect issues, I experienced that when I bought a MacBook G4. The track pad was defective but they claimed, rather strongly, that the reason it didn'y work was because I used hand lotion, and nearly every associate in the store was called upon to convince me that was true. Fortunately, I'd owned previous model Apple laptops that functioned just fine, with or without moisturized hands, so I didn't buy into that. I've also had posts deleted in their support section if I complained too strongly about an issue.
I've owned and loved Apple computers for 20 years, but their tactics are sometimes closer to the Church of Scientology than you might think.
It doesn't do Apple any good to be loyal to their products, no matter what. That kind fanatism only encourages any dishonest dealing.
Yeah, you sound very credible. Where did you say you bought a MacBook G4 again? I've never heard of it. You're not making all that stuff up are you?
If it's only capable of displaying 262,000 colors then I call that false advertising. Why should we have to parse the term "support for?" That's misleading.
Google search 16.2 million colors lcd
You'll find its common and there for accepted practice to have 16.2 million colors as a feature of 6 bit LCD panels. However if the feature is claimed as "16.7 million colors" then they must be talking about 8 bit.
Dave