Closing the book on Apple's Mac mini

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  • Reply 261 of 575
    abster2coreabster2core Posts: 2,501member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post


    Um, was what you posted meant to prove that putting third-party RAM into a Mac voids the warranty for that Mac? Because it didn't.



    It's really very simple. If you buy a Mac from Apple and RAM from someone else, and install the RAM in the Mac, the Mac - the RAM is under warranty from Apple, and the RAM is under warranty from whoever you bought it from.



    I am sure you didn't mean what you wrote.



    However, perhaps you can explain to all those that got the following or similar from Apple:



    "After extensive testing, we have determined that a failure in your PowerBook was caused by a non-Apple product (RAM)…The non-Apple product has been removed, placed in a sealed, static-shielded bad, and is being returned to you in this box with your Powerbook. We suggest that you take this product back to the place of purchase with this information and work out an appropriate resolution with the reseller. ...Please do not reinstall the non-Apple parts that we have removed. Doing so will cause another failure and possibly further damage your PowerBook. The subsequent repair will not be covered under warranty."



    Now you may say that this is bull but consider the following as well.



    From Apple

    Unauthorized Changes To Hardware Void Warranty

    This article explains Apple's warranty as it relates to hardware modifications. The information applies to all Apple products in all regions of the world.



    Changes made to Apple hardware that are not authorized by Apple may void the warranty. Accordingly, you can expect your service provider to charge you for service to that product if it requires service after the modification has been made. Further, if the modification alters a part so as to make it unfit and ineligible for parts exchange with Apple, a new part must be purchased. Note that pricing is typically significantly higher when parts cannot be sent to Apple for exchange.

    Adding DRAM, VRAM or other user-installable upgrade or expansion products to an Apple computer is not considered a modification to that Apple product.




    My take and experience: 1) Change your hardware without a preauthorization from Apple and you are toast. 2) Adding Apple approved memory is ok. 3) However, increasing memory by substituting the pre-installed Apple approved RAM and you are toast. Since matching RAM in pairs is highly recommended, you can't simply add a third-party non-Apple authorized stick.
  • Reply 262 of 575
    mr. hmr. h Posts: 4,822member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post


    I am sure you didn't mean what you wrote.



    I did mean what I wrote. In the case that you quoted, it was the third-party RAM that had failed. Why should Apple cover that? If you replace RAM in your Mac, it can be a good idea to hold on to said RAM, so that if anything goes wrong, you can swap the original RAM back in. If the problem then goes away, you know you need the third-party RAM replaced, and if the problem remains, it's something else and the machine can be returned to Apple.



    I find it odd that you are trying to prove that adding third party RAM voids your warranty, yet you quote information from Apple which categorically states that that is not the case ("Adding DRAM, VRAM or other user-installable upgrade or expansion products to an Apple computer is not considered a modification to that Apple product).
  • Reply 263 of 575
    mrtotesmrtotes Posts: 760member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post


    ("Adding DRAM, VRAM or other user-installable upgrade or expansion products to an Apple computer is not considered a modification to that Apple product).



    As I understand it unless there's a guide in the manual or on Apple's website it's not a user-installable part and so does affect the warranty. No issues though just reverse the process before sending it in if you have to.
  • Reply 264 of 575
    tbagginstbaggins Posts: 2,306member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post




    Now you may say that this is bull but consider the following as well.



    From Apple

    Unauthorized Changes To Hardware Void Warranty

    This article explains Apple's warranty as it relates to hardware modifications. The information applies to all Apple products in all regions of the world.



    Changes made to Apple hardware that are not authorized by Apple may void the warranty. Accordingly, you can expect your service provider to charge you for service to that product if it requires service after the modification has been made. Further, if the modification alters a part so as to make it unfit and ineligible for parts exchange with Apple, a new part must be purchased. Note that pricing is typically significantly higher when parts cannot be sent to Apple for exchange.

    Adding DRAM, VRAM or other user-installable upgrade or expansion products to an Apple computer is not considered a modification to that Apple product.




    That's interesting Abster, but I don't think you took the time to read the Apple doc I linked to:



    Apple Warranty: Installing Memory, Expansion Cards, User Installable Parts Does Not Void Warranty



    "You may install memory (RAM, VRAM), and other customer-installable parts without voiding your Apple warranty.



    Apple's warranty states:



    "This warranty does not apply...if the product has been modified without the written permission of Apple..."



    ***HOWEVER:*** [added for emphasis ]



    Adding memory (DRAM, VRAM) or other user-installable upgrade or expansion products to an Apple computer is NOT considered a modification to that Apple product.



    Therefore, it is NOT necessary to obtain Apple's written permission to upgrade or expand an Apple computer.



    While Apple strongly recommends that you retain the services of an Apple Authorized Service Provider to perform any product upgrades or expansions, you will not void your Apple warranty if you choose to upgrade or expand your computer yourself."



    -- end quote--



    http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=13946



    Even in the Apple policy that you quoted, Abster, it says the following:



    "Adding DRAM, VRAM or other user-installable upgrade or expansion products to an Apple computer is not considered a modification to that Apple product. "



    I think its pretty clear that adding RAM is NOT considered to be a modification of an Apple product by Apple (as Apple states this), does not require authorization (as Apple states this), and as such does NOT void your warranty, since an UNAUTHORIZED MODIFICATION of an Apple product is what actually voids your warranty. This is all explicitly and clearly stated by Apple.



    The sole exception is if you DAMAGE your computer in the process of installing RAM, in which case Apple is not liable. This is understandable and logical, but at the same time is also pretty hard to do... I've never managed to harm a comp in the process of installing RAM, nor have any friends or acquaintances. You'd have to be fairly incompetent. \



    In short, folks will continue to install their own RAM, without trouble, will save a lot of money, and will continue to not void their Apple warranties. Those who prefer to continue to be fleeced by Apple's (and others) ridiculously high RAM prices, may continue to do so. It's a win-win, and everyone gets what they want. Ain't life grand?



    .
  • Reply 265 of 575
    abster2coreabster2core Posts: 2,501member
    I think I read it better than you.



    If you want to add RAM the warranty stays as long as it Apple approved RAM. Carefull, too many cases where the warranty is voided.



    http://forums.macrumors.com/archive/.../t-271060.html



    http://www.macintouch.com/badram03.html



    http://www.ntu.edu.sg/CITS/Latest+De...gory/apple.htm



    http://innonate.com/2007/04/12/rotte...re-experience/
  • Reply 266 of 575
    cubitcubit Posts: 846member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mrtotes View Post


    Worryingly they seem to be letting the iPod stagnate too. Can't Apple work on multiple independant projects in parallel?



    iPod Stagnate? Hell, is it supposted to be "Update of the Month Club"? There is already considerable confusion in the stores. iPhone will soon be here...
  • Reply 267 of 575
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,951member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post


    Um, was what you posted meant to prove that putting third-party RAM into a Mac voids the warranty for that Mac? Because it didn't.



    It's really very simple. If you buy a Mac from Apple and RAM from someone else, and install the RAM in the Mac, the Mac minus the RAM is under warranty from Apple, and the RAM is under warranty from whoever you bought it from.



    I'm pretty sure you are right on this. This came up when the mini was originally released, Apple reps pretty much said that as long as you don't break anything, the mini (minus the third party parts) is covered. If you are worried about breaking, I've heard of several people saying that Apple techs would install third party memory for a fairly small fee. Now, if something goes bad and it turns out to be caused by a part that Apple didn't supply, then they can charge you for the repair.



    I'm pretty sure that the warranty terms regarding modifications is in respect to drilling, cutting, soldering and such, not swapping modular commodity parts.
  • Reply 268 of 575
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,951member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cubit View Post


    iPod Stagnate? Hell, is it supposted to be "Update of the Month Club"? There is already considerable confusion in the stores. iPhone will soon be here...



    Last year, I think there was average of one or more hardware product updated per month. I'm not really aware of any major confusion that resulted from this. This year, it was AppleTV, Airport Extreme and Mac Book, and Octo, which is down a little bit. I suppose there are the color shuffles and the (R)ed nanos, I'm not sure whether to call them product updates or not, the updates difference in the product itself was entirely superficial given that it's just a change in anodization color.



    The last main iPod update was relatively small compared to most previous iPod generation updates, the overall design was the same with some relatively slight bumps in features and capacity.
  • Reply 269 of 575
    tbagginstbaggins Posts: 2,306member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post


    I think I read it better than you.



    Apparently not, since the doc I quote is from Apple, and explicity says that installing RAM does NOT void your warranty on the Mac in question. Or maybe you finally did read it, since you don't seem to be arguing with that anymore, but rather are posting links to 'RAM horror stories', and are emphasizing that you should use good RAM... which I agree with.



    Quote:

    If you want to add RAM the warranty stays as long as it Apple approved RAM. Careful, too many cases where the warranty is voided.



    I'd agree that you should install only high-quality, warrantied RAM, such as Crucial (as I've already stated). So, let's see an Apple doc that says its okay to void the warranty on the ENTIRE MACHINE by the mere presence of non-Apple approved RAM in the machine.



    The only exception I'm aware of are cases in which the user DAMAGES THE MACHINE in the process of installing RAM, which is pretty darn rare... unless maybe you drop the Mac while installing RAM.





    A lot of heat but not much light in those links... in a lot of them, its a bunch of people arguing over what the interpretation of Apple policy is (and I've already quoted the docs in question). One comment was interesting:



    As unbiased as I possibly can, I can only recommend buying RAM from Crucial. It's not because we sell it -- it's because it's damn good memory. There is a near-zero DOA rate, and the failure rate is very low (for the rare times we do find bad modules, we are able to replace them on the spot for customers, assuming there is available stock). We used to sell RAM from a handful of companies, but dumped all the rest in favor of Crucial due to all the others having so many quality issues.



    Amen to that... Crucial is who I usually go with when I install my own RAM (as I've done on several machines, with no problems) and who I've recommended in this thread.



    The one thing that was brought up that was of concern was that Apple apparently sometimes blames repair issues on the presence of 3rd-party RAM, even in cases where this was very dubious. If true, this is very sleazy and of questionable legality, and folks commenting in your links state this also:



    I run an Apple Authorized service center... in many cases, [Apple] pulls the [3rd party] memory, sends the unit back to us, and the problem has not even been addressed. The most insane case was a PowerBook G4 that had a broken hinge. You guessed it, bad RAM caused the problem.



    This is the first time I've heard of Apple engaging in this dastardly practice, but its pretty easily defeated... if you ever have a warranty issue, simply pull the additional RAM you've installed and re-install the original RAM modules it came with. Then Apple doesn't have an excuse.



    And shame on Apple for looking for one. A broken hinge caused by BAD RAM? Uh, yeah.



    .
  • Reply 270 of 575
    tbagginstbaggins Posts: 2,306member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Mr. H


    Um, was what you posted meant to prove that putting third-party RAM into a Mac voids the warranty for that Mac? Because it didn't.



    It's really very simple. If you buy a Mac from Apple and RAM from someone else, and install the RAM in the Mac, the Mac minus the RAM is under warranty from Apple, and the RAM is under warranty from whoever you bought it from.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by posted by JeffDM


    I'm pretty sure you are right on this. This came up when the mini was originally released, Apple reps pretty much said that as long as you don't break anything, the mini (minus the third party parts) is covered. If you are worried about breaking, I've heard of several people saying that Apple techs would install third party memory for a fairly small fee. Now, if something goes bad and it turns out to be caused by a part that Apple didn't supply, then they can charge you for the repair.



    From what I've read of Apple policy, I would concur with both of you.



    .
  • Reply 271 of 575
    banalltvbanalltv Posts: 238member
    From The New York Times:



    March 24, 2005

    HOW IT WORKS



    With Mac Mini, Apple Builds a Smaller Box

    By IAN AUSTEN



    ...But Philip Schiller, senior vice president for worldwide product marketing at Apple, says that despite the decline in the costs of such components, many of them remain too expensive for a $500 computer...



    ...Another design compromise, in this case mostly brought about by cost concerns, is that the Mini does not offer an easy way for users to add memory chips. Mr. Schiller said that was driven in part by company research showing that most customers upgraded memory only when they purchased a computer and generally had it installed by the retailer.



    But he confirms that do-it-yourselfers who open the Mini's shell (a process that involves the careful manipulation of putty knives) will not violate their computer warranties provided they do not damage anything in the process.



    Copyright 2005*The New York Times Company





    I'm sad to see it go, I got a lot of work out of mine at a time when I couldn't make the price of something bigger.



    After a year though the HD crapped out on me, the mini had overheated a lot until I put more RAM into it and placed it on an inelegant but efficient bed of copper and aluminium offcuts to disperse heat.



    I had felt like a total sucker when I bought the extended warranty but boy was I glad in the end.



    However Apple's 3rd party official fixer uppers here did a ham fisted job of re-assembling it.



    RIP Mac Mini
  • Reply 272 of 575
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,117member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


    So the buyer goes to the memory maker or drive maker to get the drive replaced. I accept this. Even swapping back in the original components should something else break, I still accept it because the likelihood of failure should be low. I'm not sure if it's of enough value to the individual to pay Apple's prices.



    While that's more of a hassle than most people are willing to endure, esp. for the hard drive, it wasn't really the point.



    The point was that if you have a problem, what is causing it?



    Is it the machine? The memory? The Hd?



    It is some incompatible combination between them? Does the problem go away when you replace them? NO? Partly?



    It is intermittent? Is it crashes, freezes, or just some occasional blip?



    Is it a slowdown? Do you have enough memory left in the machine without the third party RAM to run a proper test for this?



    Is the Hd itself compatible with certain features of the OS? Some Seagate's, and other,s are not fully compatible. Do you know if the one you bought is? Could it be your problem? Can you tell with a smaller drive? Would it have the same compatibility problem, or not?



    Again, Jeff, while many of us here are prepared to deal with these problems, though I'll bet you that many here, if not most, are not, the general public is definitely not.



    For the average person, money is often less important than peace of mind.
  • Reply 273 of 575
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,117member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post


    By all means, go check out Apple's current RAM upgrade pricing. I think you'll be rather unpleasantly surprised.



    .



    I wasn't doubting you.
  • Reply 274 of 575
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,117member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mrtotes View Post


    I'd have probably bought a Mini buy now (pun intended) if it only had a 3.5" drive. A Slightly bigger case and a HDMI connector would rock, however I do agree it's dead.



    Apple Store in Cheltenham had none on display yesterday.



    Ah, but you see, then it wouldn't BE a Mini.
  • Reply 275 of 575
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,117member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mrtotes View Post


    Worryingly they seem to be letting the iPod stagnate too. Can't Apple work on multiple independant projects in parallel?



    The problem seems to be that Apple, or Jobs, at least, has ADD. Attention Deficit Disorder. My daughter has had that, so I'm familiar with it.



    It means that if someone dislikes a subject, they have difficulty dealing with it. If something disappoints them, them, they avoid it.



    Apple seems to do that.



    If a product, or line, isn't doing as well as they expected, instead of doing everything they can to improve it in the way the potential customer is telling them to, they allow it to die off, making only minor changes along the way.



    Instead, they concentrate on the next NEW thing, until they lose interest in that as well.



    Once something fails to excite them, they move on to another thing.



    Most large companies have hundreds, or even thousands of products, both large and small. They all must receive attention. Apple has to understand that every one of their products won't be a hit. That doesn't mean that its market isn't worth exploiting. Even if Apple only sells 100 thousand Mini's a quarter, that's still 400 thousand machines a year, plus OS upgrades, other software, possibly a monitor here or there. If they have ten different machines that sell 400 thousand a year, that's 4 million a year! A lot of sales for Apple, esp. considering the other stuff Apple has to offer along with it, and the sales it will generate as more people see Mac's in their friends, relatives, and colleague's hands.
  • Reply 276 of 575
    aegisdesignaegisdesign Posts: 2,914member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


    Exactly. They have already got Santa Rosa, Core 2 Duo, Blu Ray, 4GB Ram support, a TV Tuner, HDMI output, dual display output, TV output, USB ports on the front and a card slot.



    http://minipc.aopen.com/Global/spec.htm



    They even have a cube:



    http://xc.aopen.com.tw/taiwan/



    There's absolutely no reason why Apple couldn't have done this.



    Apple do this a lot though. They bring out a really nice innovative product and they let it stagnate until it's worthless. I can see them doing the same thing with the iphone.



    They're also about $1400. I priced one up a while back to match the Mac Mini spec and they were about $300 more expensive than the Mac Mini. Then you've got to add software.
  • Reply 277 of 575
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,117member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post


    No, I'm telling you that you can install high-quality RAM with a lifetime warranty yourself, in about 5 minutes with ease, and save yourself a great deal of money over what Apple charges. I'd file that in the 'obvious' category, right along with the sun rising in the east, and Dick Cheney having no soul.



    However, if you'd be happier inventing problems, you are welcome to screw up the simple process of installing your own RAM, can then sue yourself, and then post on Internet forums "not to use Abster, he's incompetent, and provided a terrible user experience." Whatever makes you happy.



    Oh, and as iDave stated, you don't void your warranty by installing your own RAM. According to Apple:



    "You may install memory (RAM, VRAM), and other customer-installable parts without voiding your Apple warranty."



    http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=13946



    Don't fear DIMMs, Abster. They don't bite.



    .



    How many people are prepared to open up a Mini to install something? Or a MacBook?



    Only those of us who feel comfortable to do so, a small percentage of buyers of these machines.



    Many other people don't want to send their machines out for some company to do it for them if they won't do it themselves.



    As far as buying third party memory, and having Apple install it, well, that may not be a bad compromise, but, again, most people won't think of it, or would be too embarrassed to ask.



    It's like many other things. It may be a good idea, but the average person won't think so.
  • Reply 278 of 575
    idaveidave Posts: 1,283member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    If a product, or line, isn't doing as well as they expected, instead of doing everything they can to improve it in the way the potential customer is telling them to, they allow it to die off, making only minor changes along the way.



    Even if a product is doing well, such as the iPod mini, they'll kill it in favor of something better (the iPod nano). I hope that's what will happen if the rumor about the death of the Mac mini is true.
  • Reply 279 of 575
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,117member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by drmoto View Post


    I think most will agree that installing RAM is no brain surgery, ...



    I disagree in that MOST people WILL think that installing RAM is akin to brain surgery.



    Those of us here (well, many of us here) refuse to think outside of our own capacity.



    What's the joke about people having their VCR's clock blinking 12 midnight?



    Some here are giving the average person FAR too much credit when it comes to performing upgrades, or even THINKING about performing upgrades.



    The vast majority of people never upgrade their machines, and that goes for PC people as well.
  • Reply 280 of 575
    aegisdesignaegisdesign Posts: 2,914member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mrtotes View Post


    I'd have probably bought a Mini buy now (pun intended) if it only had a 3.5" drive. A Slightly bigger case and a HDMI connector would rock, however I do agree it's dead.



    Apple Store in Cheltenham had none on display yesterday.



    Manchester had two on Saturday on display and no 8 core Mac Pro, ergo the Mac Pro 8 core is dead and the sky is falling in.



    Really! \
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