Closing the book on Apple's Mac mini

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  • Reply 301 of 570
    tbagginstbaggins Posts: 2,306member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    I wasn't doubting you.



    And you never should.



    But the point was not to reinforce my veracity, it was to get you to check on current Apple pricing, as you seem not to have in awhile.

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  • Reply 302 of 570
    tbagginstbaggins Posts: 2,306member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    How many people are prepared to open up a Mini to install something? Or a MacBook?



    Only those of us who feel comfortable to do so, a small percentage of buyers of these machines.



    Of course. How else is Apple able to get away with those upgrade prices?



    However, I would add that it is a bit of a generational thing. I notice that most folks middle-aged and up are loathe to crack open their machines and DIY it, even for easy tasks like adding RAM. But guys in their 20s and younger usually don't seem to have a problem with it most of the time, especially if they're into high-performance (gaming). Younger people in general seem less afraid of technology.



    I think as time goes on, more and more people will not have a problem messing with their machines, though people like that will still likely be in the minority. Doesn't mean that its not the way to go, though, considering the considerable savings for not much work.



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  • Reply 303 of 570
    tbagginstbaggins Posts: 2,306member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    As part of that, from Apple's warrantee:

    Quote:

    This warranty does not apply: (a) to damage caused by use with non-Apple products;

    Quote:

    (d) to damage caused by service (including upgrades and expansions) performed by anyone who is not a representative of Apple or an Apple Authorized Service Provider;

    Quote:

    EXCEPT AS PROVIDED IN THIS WARRANTY AND TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW, APPLE IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR DIRECT, SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES RESULTING FROM ANY BREACH OF WARRANTY OR CONDITION,

    This comes directly from this page on Aple's site



    Yeah, that seems to confirm what's been discussed already, which is that installing RAM yourself does not void the warranty on your Mac, UNLESS you damage your comp while installing RAM. And its common sense that if using 3rd party RAM causes damage, Apple is not liable for said damage.



    Both cases are quite rare, in my experience, though apparently some folks are complaining that Apple likes to blame issues on the presence of 3rd party RAM, even in cases where the link is dubious at best. The easy end-run around that, though, is that if you ever have to take your Mac in to be checked out, simply remove any 3rd party RAM and re-install the original RAM beforehand, so that Apple can't attempt to use that as an excuse. Sad that you'd have to, though. \



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  • Reply 304 of 570
    idaveidave Posts: 1,283member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post


    Younger people in general seem less afraid of technology.



    And younger people, in general, have less money.



    I'm more than middle-aged and don't have any problem installing memory in a computer. However, I don't change the oil in my own car. I know, what does that have to do with anything? Just demonstrates that certain things are worth paying for, depending on your values.
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  • Reply 305 of 570
    tbagginstbaggins Posts: 2,306member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iDave View Post


    When Jobs returned, Apple had recently lost a billion dollars in one year. Things had to be slashed and Apple needed to return to its core business, computer hardware, to return to profitability.



    Since then, with the success of the iMac and the iPod, Apple is a healthy company again. I see no reason now why Apple should not offer more variety in their line of computers as well as their consumer electronics products such as the iphone and the aTV.



    Amen.



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  • Reply 306 of 570
    tbagginstbaggins Posts: 2,306member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iDave View Post


    And younger people, in general, have less money.



    Yep, you're right. All the more reason for them to DIY it, when possible, than pay Apple's upgrade prices.



    .
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  • Reply 307 of 570
    gmsquiresgmsquires Posts: 14member
    To all of those who keep trying to say that the Mac mini is "under powered" or comparing it to other PCees I saw bs. Those that say it is under powered probably have never used one, or possibly at best one could say that the Mini would not suit them. I had an older Mac G4 500 MgHz that I had added larger hard drives to, had added a built in internal 3.5" drive bay memory card reader, attached via fire wire an external HP DVD writer, and added some other peripherals all of which worked fine. Then along came the Intel Macs and the newer QT HD movies with Tiger and Panther and the video card just couldn't keep up. It also didn't work with Apple's Core Graphics. I though long and hard about upgrading the processor and getting a new video card and decided for what I would be better off getting a new Intel Mac. The iMacs were a bit out of my price range at the time, plus I had an investment in the better mouse, keyboard, 18" LCD, and other external peripherals that were working just fine. I checked out the Mini's and found that I could get the 1.8Ghz with the Super Drive or hunt around for some specials with either the 1.6 or 1.8 Ghz models. I also checked out the pros and cons about the Intel graphics chip set and found that found that the "under powered" whiners where right if you were talking about using it for video intensive games etc. I don't play those games so that was a non issue, nut the graphics chip works fine, does support Core Graphics, and HD video clips in QT are also perfectly fine. I got the 1.;66 Ghz model at a special deal with the extra 512 kb memory for a total of 1Gb, got the Newer Tech enclosure that sits under the Mini with the USB and fire wire hub and an empty drive bay that I stuck my 300Gb drive from my old Mac into. I transfered my programs and data from the external drive to the new OSX setup in my Mini and then cloned that drive back to my external drive connected via firewire. I also connected up my peripherals including my external firewire DVD writer. Everything works fine and I can take advantage of all of the new video Core Graphics effects. I also found that if I do want to upgrade the Mini as far as processor to a true Core 2 Duo that is possible (although you will probably void your warranty). I just got two 1 Gb memory chips and will have my memory upgraded. Even with the extra hd/hub enclosure and now the extra memory I still am below $1000 and have spent less that a crappy PC. Which btw, I also got Parallels and have a copy of XP Pro on my internal 60 Gb hd in my mini and it runs faster and better than my 1.6 Ghz AMD processor older HP box with Win XP which I rarely use anyway.



    So, bottom line, I think it would probably be a mistake to eliminate the Mini as it definitely serves a purpose for either a "Switcher" or even us Mac users that have older machines with a adequate supply of peripherals and don't need them supplied in a new Mac.



    Oh, BTW, the supposed reliable sources (which are not ever named), are they the same reliable ones that Engadget relied upon for their ground breaking story on the delay for the iPhone and Leopard?
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  • Reply 308 of 570
    idaveidave Posts: 1,283member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by gmsquires View Post


    I also checked out the pros and cons about the Intel graphics chip set and found that found that the "under powered" whiners where right if you were talking about using it for video intensive games etc. I don't play those games so that was a non issue, nut the graphics chip works fine, does support Core Graphics, and HD video clips in QT are also perfectly fine.



    I'm glad to hear you say that. I think you're right, most of those who dislike Apple's GPU choices are gamers or video experts. I've never had a problem with any GPU in any Mac I've purchased and I've had nearly 20 of them over the years. Of course, I'm not a gamer either. It would be nice, however, if Apple had a heart and did a little bit more in that department for those to whom it matters.
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  • Reply 309 of 570
    dmberdmber Posts: 204member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bdj21ya View Post


    Sorry, thanks for pointing that out. It was confusing to have the sources cited so far down in the article. I'm used to the news convention of putting the more concrete stuff at the top of the article, with the opinion following.



    the sources were never cited.



    "Therefore, it comes as little surprise that sources, for whom AppleInsider holds the utmost respect, are now pointing towards the mini's impending demise."



    that is not citing sources. "source" is not a source.
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  • Reply 310 of 570
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,713member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post


    Canon Ions predated the Quicktake by about 4 years I think, even in the USA. Apple were late into the market and there was no way they were going to be taken seriously up against proper camera manufacturers.



    Maybe you don't remember much about those days, or weren't very involved, as I was. The cameras before the Apple were pretty poor. The only major manufacturer making a real effort was Kodak (they manufactured Apple's camera. Canon's wasn't called the Ion here, though I forget the name now.



    Quote:

    IMHO I think Jobs was right to get out of peripherals where other people were doing it much better or there was nothing Apple could bring to it that people cared about. A printer is a printer pretty much so there was no reason to buy an Apple printer over anyone else's.



    Except that Apple's were doing very well. They were very popular.
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  • Reply 311 of 570
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,713member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iDave View Post


    I agree that Apple is caught up with the phone which is one reason there isn't much news on Macs so far this year. Are you quoting something Steve Jobs said, because I don't remember any such statement. At MWSF, he spoke only briefly about Macs and said the usual "we'll have great products coming out later." What you're saying sounds pretty specific.



    Yes, he said that in an interveiw. He was asked if Apple would be coming out with new lines of products other than the iPhone and ATv soon. He said that they wouldn't be coming out with new lines soon, but that they would later. I don't have an actual quote.



    We had a discussion about that here at some point.
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  • Reply 312 of 570
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,713member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jwdawso View Post


    Mis-fire! It was the same memory as used in the G3s - 66Mhz.



    Apple specs memory in more ways than speed. That's been a problem for a while with Apple. Tighter specs don't mean higher speed. They mean tighter timings.



    You may have forgotten when Apple updated the firmware on the G4's, and much menory stopped working.



    Quote:

    We can look at history, and see that they became commondities. But you are okay with Apple having commodity product lines. I think that would destroy the culture.



    Explain what you mean by commodity. Apple can still make a product desirable without it becoming a commodity, and still not have that product as a "star" in their lineup.



    Quote:

    Whoa! What's HPs margins? (4.8%) What's Apple's? (30%+) HP is on the Dell side of the equation - cut costs and move merchandise. Low margin and high sales. Apple is about innovation. HP would kill to be in Apple's space.



    Hp's margins could be better if they, like most all other computer makers didn't make cheap trash computers as loss leaders. All of their other product lines do quite well. But the numbers you are quoting are not the same numbers. You are quoting Apple's margins, and Hp's profit. Apple's profit is about 12+%.



    As a company gets bigger, it becomes more difficult to maintain high margins. growth slows down as well.



    Quote:

    High margin products, where "Designed by Apple" means 25%+ margins. QED - new product lines mean innovative products, not the "me-too's" like HP is now doing to become a consumer products company.



    Apple doesn't have 25+% margins on their iPod line. It's more like 20%. But, margins are not profit.
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  • Reply 313 of 570
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,713member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post


    Not sure what you two are arguing about, since "consumer product" does not necessarily mean "low-margin" or non-innovative.



    No, it doesn't.



    Quote:

    Look at the iPod... an innovative, consumer-oriented product WITH good margins. Ditto the iPhone. Apple is obviously moving into the consumer electronics space, but they're carefully picking and choosing areas where they can be 'ahead of the pack' and make lots of profit. It's not like they're trying to compete with Sony and Samsung in mass-market, razor-thin-margin TVs, for example.



    In other words, you're both right.



    .



    He wants Apple to have a very few product lines with a very few models in each, with each model a media star.



    I'm saying that as Apple grows, that won't be possible anymore.



    And, for the first time in a long time, Apple is on a growth track. They intend to stay on one.



    I hope, for the price of my stock, that they remain on it.
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  • Reply 314 of 570
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,713member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post


    And you never should.



    But the point was not to reinforce my veracity, it was to get you to check on current Apple pricing, as you seem not to have in awhile.

    .



    Ok, I checked. They are pretty high. I didn't do the math though.



    Apple seems to go through periods with memory prices. Sometimes they're very high, as now, and then they lower them to, considering that it's installed, and certified by them, fairly reasonable levels.



    Right now, they are in unreasonable mode.
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  • Reply 315 of 570
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,713member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post


    Of course. How else is Apple able to get away with those upgrade prices?



    However, I would add that it is a bit of a generational thing. I notice that most folks middle-aged and up are loathe to crack open their machines and DIY it, even for easy tasks like adding RAM. But guys in their 20s and younger usually don't seem to have a problem with it most of the time, especially if they're into high-performance (gaming). Younger people in general seem less afraid of technology.



    I think as time goes on, more and more people will not have a problem messing with their machines, though people like that will still likely be in the minority. Doesn't mean that its not the way to go, though, considering the considerable savings for not much work.



    .



    Maybe. My daughter's grown up with computers, as she was using mine by herself since she was two and a half, and had her own since she was four. While she's an expert on anything software related (she's now fifteen and a half), she still is in shock whenever I upgrade a machine of hers. Her friends look at me blankly if I ask them questions about their hardware.
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  • Reply 316 of 570
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,713member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post


    Yeah, that seems to confirm what's been discussed already, which is that installing RAM yourself does not void the warranty on your Mac, UNLESS you damage your comp while installing RAM. And its common sense that if using 3rd party RAM causes damage, Apple is not liable for said damage.



    Both cases are quite rare, in my experience, though apparently some folks are complaining that Apple likes to blame issues on the presence of 3rd party RAM, even in cases where the link is dubious at best. The easy end-run around that, though, is that if you ever have to take your Mac in to be checked out, simply remove any 3rd party RAM and re-install the original RAM beforehand, so that Apple can't attempt to use that as an excuse. Sad that you'd have to, though. \



    .



    It's actually more than that.



    It also means that while the products could have been installed correctly, if THEY damage the machine, it's not covered by warrantee.



    So, if your memory melts down, and damages the socket or power supply, tough luck. Same thing for Hd's or any card that may be installed, or optical drive, Firewire, or USB device, etc.



    Even if a monitor damages the machine, the warrantee is gone.



    I've seen all of the above happen at one time or another.
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  • Reply 317 of 570
    japplejapple Posts: 91member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iDave View Post


    That's right. I'm amazed when I talk to the average person about computers, how many still don't understand the difference between memory and hard disk space. Many would buy a new computer before thinking about adding more memory because they simply don't know what adding more memory means.



    Exactly. Many of my windows friends buy the cheapest box they can (but with cool features - ie dvd burner, photo station technology etc), and then find it to be "slow" in about a year to a year and a half, and buy another cheap box. You get what you pay for.
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  • Reply 318 of 570
    tbagginstbaggins Posts: 2,306member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    It's actually more than that.



    It also means that while the products could have been installed correctly, if THEY damage the machine, it's not covered by warrantee.



    So, if your memory melts down, and damages the socket or power supply, tough luck. Same thing for Hd's or any card that may be installed, or optical drive, Firewire, or USB device, etc.



    Even if a monitor damages the machine, the warrantee is gone.



    I've seen all of the above happen at one time or another.



    Meh, forgive me, but I'm not too concerned. And yes, I did assume the above was the case.



    Over the years, I've probably saved enough money over Apple's prices by DIY'ing it to finance a couple of significant repairs, so even if the boogeyman did somehow rear its ugly head, I'd likely still be ahead. I have many friends who can say the same. None of us have ever had a comp damaged by 3rd party RAM, and I'm doubtful we ever will.



    Perhaps it helps that I (and most of them) don't buy the cheapest 3rd party RAM, but also consider reputation and warranty. Or perhaps 3rd party RAM modules are just not the heat-seeking, comp-destroying WMDs that some fear. I dunno which it is, but so far so good, for many years now.



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  • Reply 319 of 570
    tbagginstbaggins Posts: 2,306member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    Maybe. My daughter's grown up with computers, as she was using mine by herself since she was two and a half, and had her own since she was four. While she's an expert on anything software related (she's now fifteen and a half), she still is in shock whenever I upgrade a machine of hers. Her friends look at me blankly if I ask them questions about their hardware.



    Sure Mel, but at the same time, I have no doubt that if we took a thousand typical 50-year olds aside, and a thousand typical 20-year olds aside, quizzed them about their tech knowledge, and then had them perform basic hardware- and software-related tasks, the 20-year olds would, on average, come out ahead.



    Just for fun, and as an example of the above, if your parents are over 50 and own a cellphone, ask them to text you. The blank look you'll get is priceless.



    It's not agism or anything, it's just that young folks were born in the computer age, older folks weren't, and thus the youngsters are just more comfortable with tech, on average. You are simply one of the exceptions that proves the rule.



    .
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  • Reply 320 of 570
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,713member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post


    Sure Mel, but at the same time, I have no doubt that if we took a thousand typical 50-year olds aside, and a thousand typical 20-year olds aside, quizzed them about their tech knowledge, and then had them perform basic hardware- and software-related tasks, the 20-year olds would, on average, come out ahead.



    Just for fun, and as an example of the above, if your parents are over 50 and own a cellphone, ask them to text you. The blank look you'll get is priceless.



    It's not agism or anything, it's just that young folks were born in the computer age, older folks weren't, and thus the youngsters are just more comfortable with tech, on average. You are simply one of the exceptions that proves the rule.



    .



    Quite honestly, I'm not so sure anymore. Texting doesn't count. That's just using the device, not opening it up.



    While for a time it did seem as though that was true, it no longer seems to be the case. The dumbing down of the computer using populace is upon us.



    The same thing seems to happen with all technologies. First a small select technically inclined base begins the transition. Then it spreads. More people know most of the basics, and fiddle. Then the machines become more complex on the insides, but less so outside. Far more people take it up, but a smaller percentage knows what's under the "hood". By the time it becomes ubiquitous, few people poke inside anymore, as it becomes mysterious to them.



    We've seen it happen with cars, radio, audio, and now computers.



    I'm willing to bet that in ten years, almost no one will ever open their machines.
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