The Headless Mac kills the Mini

245

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 94
    idaveidave Posts: 1,283member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    Please, someone ban this recurring disaster of a rumor. I implore you.



    Someone please ban people like SDW2001 who can't ignore threads like these if they're not interested.
  • Reply 22 of 94
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 18,015member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iDave View Post


    Someone please ban people like SDW2001 who can't ignore threads like these if they're not interested.



    Or maybe people with enough posts to know better should stop creating the same goddamned thread about headless iMac or mid-pro tower. I could set my watch by it. Enough.
  • Reply 23 of 94
    idaveidave Posts: 1,283member
    Is 68 posts enough to know better? I guess you should know.



    Obviously, a discussion of why Apple hasn't done the sensible thing and created a Mac that most of the computer buying public might like isn't of interest to you.



    Personally, I think it's more interesting than a lot of the drivel (What GPU really is best for the latest games?) that is typically discussed in Mac forums.



    To each his/her own.
  • Reply 24 of 94
    snoopysnoopy Posts: 1,901member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post




    Or maybe people with enough posts to know better should stop creating the same goddamned thread about headless iMac or mid-pro tower. I could set my watch by it. Enough.






    Not so. I'd say this thread has sincere newcomers to a headless Mac and mini tower type discussion, and they have a right to express their views. What is this forum for, if not that?



    I was tempted to rekindle one of the old threads, but why not just let this be the new default discussion on the subject? It has new blood in it, and beside that, I'm tired of posting about it for now. Let's keep a good thing going here.



    Should it be moved into Future Hardware? I imagine Temporary Insanity will eventually be shut down.



  • Reply 25 of 94
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 18,015member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iDave View Post


    Is 68 posts enough to know better? I guess you should know.



    Obviously, a discussion of why Apple hasn't done the sensible thing and created a Mac that most of the computer buying public might like isn't of interest to you.



    Personally, I think it's more interesting than a lot of the drivel (What GPU really is best for the latest games?) that is typically discussed in Mac forums.



    To each his/her own.



    Because Apple does this little thing called market research and they know better. They know that the market for such a device is not there. "Expandable-buying" consumers buy the Mac pro. Anyone who wants a nice, quick machine with plenty of RAM and all the capabilities therein buys a nice upgraded iMac.



    I'm not saying it wouldn't sell...just that it wouldn't see enough. My feeling is that the people who start these threads are really just complaining that they can't afford a Mac pro, and don't want to be labeled as an average consumer for buying an iMac. And a MBP? Well, that's just not powerful enough. Not for MY needs!



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by snoopy View Post


    Not so. I'd say this thread has sincere newcomers to a headless Mac and mini tower type discussion, and they have a right to express their views. What is this forum for, if not that?



    I was tempted to rekindle one of the old threads, but why not just let this be the new default discussion on the subject? It has new blood in it, and beside that, I'm tired of posting about it for now. Let's keep a good thing going here.



    Should it be moved into Future Hardware? I imagine Temporary Insanity will eventually be shut down.







    That's reasonable.
  • Reply 26 of 94
    rickagrickag Posts: 1,626member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    Because Apple does this little thing called market research ...



    Do they? The only market research that I have heard of was a report on the web that in a market research study done at the request of Apple they found that ~ 50% of the iMac purchases were by people 55 years old or older.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    I'm not saying it wouldn't sell...just that it wouldn't see enough.



    I say it would.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    My feeling is that the people who start these threads are really just complaining that they can't afford a Mac pro, and don't want to be labeled as an average consumer for buying an iMac. And a MBP? Well, that's just not powerful enough. Not for MY needs!



    That's reasonable.



    My feeling is that you are wrong. Many people could afford a Mac Pro but do not need nor want to spend the extra money for a Workstation which requires higher latency ram.



    disclaimer: the opinions expressed above are mine and not necessarily those of the ......
  • Reply 27 of 94
    northgatenorthgate Posts: 4,461member
    Would someone please define the term "headless" re: headless mac? Are we talking IT and network solutions here?
  • Reply 28 of 94
    jupiteronejupiterone Posts: 1,564member
    I've always understood it as a computer without a monitor. Which is why this thread title is confusing.



    Isn't the Mini a headless Mac? \
  • Reply 29 of 94
    aiolosaiolos Posts: 228member
    I like the idea. I wouldn't buy one personality, cause I prefer lappies, but I think it would sell like hotcakes with all those available colors. So many kids in college, for example in my dorm, love to make their rooms have a certain theme or color, and this fits perfectly into that.
  • Reply 30 of 94
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 18,015member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rickag View Post


    Do they? The only market research that I have heard of was a report on the web that in a market research study done at the request of Apple they found that ~ 50% of the iMac purchases were by people 55 years old or older.







    I say it would.





    My feeling is that you are wrong. Many people could afford a Mac Pro but do not need nor want to spend the extra money for a Workstation which requires higher latency ram.



    disclaimer: the opinions expressed above are mine and not necessarily those of the ......





    You're kidding me with this whole post, right? Apple doesn't do market research? You...just you claim there is a market for such a machine, because you want one.
  • Reply 31 of 94
    idaveidave Posts: 1,283member
    90+ percent of the computer market is WinPCs. About half of the WinPCs sold are cheap expandable towers. I guess there's no market for such a thing.
  • Reply 32 of 94
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 15,309moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    You...just you claim there is a market for such a machine, because you want one.



    I think that AI represents such a random and widespread distribution of Mac user, the fact that so many people come here requesting one speaks for itself. AI has used far more questionable surveys to get similarly obvious results.



    We've covered this before many times but nothing has ever swayed the argument in favour of people not wanting a small powerful headless machine. You're trying to tell me that 95% of the computing population who actually own cheap headless machines don't count at all?



    Let's weight up shall we how many people own all-in-ones vs headless machines. Mac users worldwide are about 22 million. PC users are around 0.5-1billion. Now I'm not sure on the exact figures but let's say the desktops are 50% of Apple's user base so they are out anyway. Let's say the same for PC users. Now consider what portion of those machines are all-in-ones. With the Mac it's probably quite high so we'll say 60%, where the 40% are both Minis and towers. With PCs it's next to nothing. I only know of Sony recently who made an all-in-one and that butt-ugly one. So I'd say less than 5%.



    So now we find:



    all-in-one fans = 0.6*11million + 0.05*500million = 31.6 million

    headless fans (no pun) = 0.4*11million + 0.95*500million = 479.4 million



    Therefore more than 93% of all computer owners in the world want a headless computer.



    The fact that Apple sell more all-in-ones means absolutely nothing because that's all they offer at a reasonable price and it's actually not as reasonable as it could be. If you're horny as hell and you walk into the only brothel in town for 1000 miles and all they have are transvestites and you just go with it because that's all they have and people turn round and say you must like boys because of what you went with, you'd say nah, that's all they had on offer (I'm not speaking from experience here btw). So why is it different when it comes to computers?



    The only true test that will settle it once and for all is if Apple actually do it and they just refuse to for whatever reason. I would honestly bet all the possessions I have in the world on the premise that if Apple made a Core 2 Duo cube with a decent GPU and desktop parts for under £600 that it would sell like crazy. They might not make as much profit but if they make half as much profit but sell twice as many then they increase market share, customers are actually happy for a change and their profits are just as healthy.
  • Reply 33 of 94
    a couple of things...



    The Name- I don't think it should really be refered to as a headless mac. No company right now makes a headless anything. PC makers make PC's or Desktops and Apple makes the mini or imac. On these forums users refer to a screen less consumer apple imac as "headless" but to really think about it, it would just be a desktop.



    The Thread Title- Yes, a little confusing. I used some key words that would draw some attention. The mini could be considered a headless mac (as it has no screen) but really isn't because it has no expandability or power. Not to mention any new consumer desktop apple makes should really be a new flagship that millions of people would know and buy, like an ipod. Like THE iPod, or THE iMac. These are household names as should be this new imagined powerful yet cheap desktop computers. THE _blank_, from Apple (Computers Inc.). So this "headless" is stronger and more prominent, thus different than the mini. According to this site the mini is being discontinued and many have speculated (to the distress of sdw2001) that a new desktop would replace it. Hence headless mac kills the mini...so really not that confusing at all.





    What is a Mac? Even though Apple sells way less volume than most companies they charge a premium for a premium product. BMW is the same way. You pay a higher price if you appreciate great design and a lot of cool factor. However for those that can't afford or dont need the power of a 3, X, 5, M, Z, 6 or 7 series BMW released a "ME TOO!" 1 series that was smaller and inexpensive. That way it was available to a larger market without losing a lot of the Beemer Pizzaz. The market won't deside to ante up for a premium computer all of a sudden, Apple needs to come to them, just like BMW. (That is IF they want more market share, They are extrememly healthy as it is). I'm not sure how the 1 series is doing or even if it released yet, i will look it up and then get back to this, but it is a good example of what i am trying to say [/run on]



    kcd
  • Reply 34 of 94
    vineavinea Posts: 5,585member
    Apple makes good money in AIO, SFF and workstation class desktops.



    Dell, HP, etc make so-so money in cheap towers with low margins and what money they do make is largely in the upper end of the cost spectrum (you know...the things with decent margins).



    The market has largely said there is no boutique tower market with large margins. Notice the lack of any large boutique tower makers? All gone. Killed by Dell and HP.



    While you or I might want a headless mac (personally I would settle for a $1400 Cube) there's no compelling reason for Apple to offer one. Most folks can be satisfied with a MP or MBP.



    Vinea
  • Reply 35 of 94
    rickagrickag Posts: 1,626member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    You're kidding me with this whole post, right? Apple doesn't do market research? You...just you claim there is a market for such a machine, because you want one.



    Provide a link to any Apple market research studies or reports of Apple sponsered market research studies. I mentioned the only one I've seen. Your turn.

    Here's a quote from Steve Jobs regarding focus groups,""It's really hard to design products by focus groups. A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to them."."



    Another quote,"“You can't just ask customers what they want and then try to give that to them. By the time you get it built, they'll want something new.”."



    I'm not alone in wanting one, heck, even the most ardent posters arguing against an xMac will concede they would buy one.
  • Reply 36 of 94
    trobertstroberts Posts: 702member
    If Apple does decide to add a new model to their lineup I do not expect it to happen until after Leopard comes installed on Macs. This would keep people from getting sour about having to pay for Leopard right after paying for a new computer, and it would be a good way to sway anybody debating whether to get a Mac or PC. Being a new model, Steve would have to present it, and MWSF2008 would be the perfect place to do it. In addition to getting the newest iLife suite the new (completed?) iWork suite would come pre-installed with a 90-day trial period. We would also find out the fate of the Mac mini if we don't already know by then.
  • Reply 37 of 94
    idaveidave Posts: 1,283member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by troberts View Post


    We would also find out the fate of the Mac mini if we don't already know by then.



    I hope the Mac mini doesn't languish with last year's technology until MWSF 2008. Ugh!
  • Reply 38 of 94
    snoopysnoopy Posts: 1,901member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vinea View Post




    Apple makes good money in AIO, SFF and workstation class desktops.






    Agreed. Apple has decent margins on their products. It would be the same for whatever replaces the Mac Mini. Another SFF? A Mac mini tower? I have no idea what Apple has up its sleeve. I'm just following the idea that AI is correct in saying the days of the Mac Mini are drawing to a close.





    Quote:



    Dell, HP, etc make so-so money in cheap towers with low margins and what money they do make is largely in the upper end of the cost spectrum (you know...the things with decent margins).



    The market has largely said there is no boutique tower market with large margins. Notice the lack of any large boutique tower makers? All gone. Killed by Dell and HP.






    I'll assume you are correct here. Yet, Dell and HP do not make a computer that runs Mac OS X. So, Dell and HP cannot compete with any Mac that Apple decides to build.



    I wouldn't say any Mac is a boutique computer. A Mac is a damn nice looking workhorse, which is what Windows PC maker should be building, but are not. As an aside, my son has a G5 under his desk, in a compartment made for a tower. The back is open for adequate cooling and there was a door on the front of this compartment. He took the door off so his computer is visible. My guess is that if it were a Windows tower, the door would still be there.



  • Reply 39 of 94
    rickagrickag Posts: 1,626member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vinea View Post


    Apple makes good money in AIO, SFF and workstation class desktops.



    agreed. Good money, spit for volume.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vinea


    Dell, HP, etc make so-so money in cheap towers with low margins and what money they do make is largely in the upper end of the cost spectrum (you know...the things with decent margins).



    Almost no one is advocating low margin towers.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vinea


    The market has largely said there is no boutique tower market with large margins. Notice the lack of any large boutique tower makers? All gone. Killed by Dell and HP.



    If so then why did Dell buy an boutique high margin tower maker?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vinea


    While you or I might want a headless mac (personally I would settle for a $1400 Cube) there's no compelling reason for Apple to offer one. Most folks can be satisfied with a MP or MBP.



    Vinea



    ????? Satifafaction with the existing Apple lines has little to do with how many additional computers Apple could sell to satisfied xMac customers and at what profit.
  • Reply 40 of 94
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 18,015member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


    I think that AI represents such a random and widespread distribution of Mac user, the fact that so many people come here requesting one speaks for itself. AI has used far more questionable surveys to get similarly obvious results.



    We've covered this before many times but nothing has ever swayed the argument in favour of people not wanting a small powerful headless machine. You're trying to tell me that 95% of the computing population who actually own cheap headless machines don't count at all?



    Let's weight up shall we how many people own all-in-ones vs headless machines. Mac users worldwide are about 22 million. PC users are around 0.5-1billion. Now I'm not sure on the exact figures but let's say the desktops are 50% of Apple's user base so they are out anyway. Let's say the same for PC users. Now consider what portion of those machines are all-in-ones. With the Mac it's probably quite high so we'll say 60%, where the 40% are both Minis and towers. With PCs it's next to nothing. I only know of Sony recently who made an all-in-one and that butt-ugly one. So I'd say less than 5%.



    So now we find:



    all-in-one fans = 0.6*11million + 0.05*500million = 31.6 million

    headless fans (no pun) = 0.4*11million + 0.95*500million = 479.4 million



    Therefore more than 93% of all computer owners in the world want a headless computer.



    The fact that Apple sell more all-in-ones means absolutely nothing because that's all they offer at a reasonable price and it's actually not as reasonable as it could be. If you're horny as hell and you walk into the only brothel in town for 1000 miles and all they have are transvestites and you just go with it because that's all they have and people turn round and say you must like boys because of what you went with, you'd say nah, that's all they had on offer (I'm not speaking from experience here btw). So why is it different when it comes to computers?



    The only true test that will settle it once and for all is if Apple actually do it and they just refuse to for whatever reason. I would honestly bet all the possessions I have in the world on the premise that if Apple made a Core 2 Duo cube with a decent GPU and desktop parts for under £600 that it would sell like crazy. They might not make as much profit but if they make half as much profit but sell twice as many then they increase market share, customers are actually happy for a change and their profits are just as healthy.



    Whoah. You have completely gone off-base with that one. Just because PCs are headless, so to speak, that doesn't mean that 1) People "want" them to be like that nor 2) Apple wants to make them or 3) There will be real market for them as compared to the Mac Pro and iMac.



    95% of the market or so is Windows based, so I guess by your logic 95% of the users out there "want" a PC and not a Mac too?







    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iDave View Post


    90+ percent of the computer market is WinPCs. About half of the WinPCs sold are cheap expandable towers. I guess there's no market for such a thing.



    See above. The PC and Mac markets are not necessarily the same. In this case Apple is competing against itself more than the PC makers. This is one reason they simplified the product matrix years ago. Remember the iMac/iMac SE/iMacDV/iMacDV+ (or whatever) fiasco? Or the iBook SE? They started cannibalizing their own products. That is why you won't see a midpro tower. It will hurt Mac Pro sales AND iMac sales.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vinea View Post


    Apple makes good money in AIO, SFF and workstation class desktops.



    Dell, HP, etc make so-so money in cheap towers with low margins and what money they do make is largely in the upper end of the cost spectrum (you know...the things with decent margins).



    The market has largely said there is no boutique tower market with large margins. Notice the lack of any large boutique tower makers? All gone. Killed by Dell and HP.



    While you or I might want a headless mac (personally I would settle for a $1400 Cube) there's no compelling reason for Apple to offer one. Most folks can be satisfied with a MP or MBP.



    Vinea



    Exactly. I'm not questioning that many here on AI want one. I'm questioning the overall market. And no, the market is not represented by AI users. We're geeks.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rickag View Post


    Provide a link to any Apple market research studies or reports of Apple sponsered market research studies. I mentioned the only one I've seen. Your turn.

    Here's a quote from Steve Jobs regarding focus groups,""It's really hard to design products by focus groups. A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to them."."



    Another quote,"?You can't just ask customers what they want and then try to give that to them. By the time you get it built, they'll want something new.?."



    I'm not alone in wanting one, heck, even the most ardent posters arguing against an xMac will concede they would buy one.



    How about this for my turn: Fuck off. How about that? There is no way there are going to be available links to Apple Market Research studies. Secondly, you're telling me that Apple...one of the largest consumer electronics/computer companies in the world with billions of dollars in assets and inventory....doesn't do market research? Then, you offer those quotes that are out of context and purely anecdotal as "proof" for your bullshit assertion? Wow.
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