What? Are you incapable of clicking on Dell's site before saying something completely wrong? No, nothing has "dramatically changed". The iMac typically has a poor bang for the buck ratio in comparison to towers.
My XPS 410 Date 6/19/2007 9:48:54 AM Central Standard Time $1499
Intel® Core?2 Duo Processor E6600 (4MB L2 Cache,2.4GHz,1066 FSB)
Genuine Windows® XP Home Edition with re-installation CD
2GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz - 2 DIMMs
500GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache?
Single Drive: 16X CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW) w/double layer write capability
22 inch E228WFP Widescreen Digital Flat Panel
256MB ATI Radeon X1300 Pro
Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio
Adobe® Acrobat® Reader 7.0
Windows XP? VCD
Dell AS501PA 10W Flat Panel Attached Spkrs for Analog Flat Panels
Dell USB Keyboard
Dell Optical USB Mouse
56K PCI Data Fax Modem
Microsoft Works 8.
Norton Internet Security? 2006 Edition 15-months
1Yr In-Home Service, Parts + Labor - Next Business Day
So let see:
2.4 Conroe vs 2.16 Merom
2GB vs 1GB Ram
500GB HDD vs 250GB HDD
256MB ATI X1300 Pro vs 128MB ATI X1600
22" WFP analog display vs 20" WFP digital display
(Can do 20" Ultrasharp WFP digital for $60 more)
iMac crushed. The 24" iMac is even worse.
The $1499 20" iMac is roughly equivalent to $999 Dell or Gateway when there is no promotion going on (none at the moment that I can tell) or $699 like the Gateway rig above which I can't replicate on the Gateway site at the moment (need to add a vid card and maybe bump the monitor on the $699 Gateway...probably comes out around $799).
The iMac sucks except for form factor, elegance and OSX. A $999 xMac will suck slightly less but there's only so much design you can put into a boxy mini-tower form factor given folks in this thread want at least 2 PCIe slots, 4 mem slots, 2 drive bays and a partridge in a pear tree.
Nothing smaller than the larger boxy Shuttles...even the Cube is too small. The best you'll end up with is a mini Mac Pro looking thingy unless you go pizza box with risers.
Vinea
I stand corrected. I will not make that mistake again.
Curious, I took your XPS 410 model, added wireless N, logitech Quick Cam and a firewire PCI card and the total came in at $1649.00.(opps, forgot to add that I lowered some of the things you included, just for fun)
And that's assuming Home Premium compares to Mac OS X with the iLife apps included. Might even have to upgrade to Genuine Windows Vista™ Ultimate to get more closely comparable to Mac OS X, and that would add about another $120, but I didn't.
I'm not saying your wrong or anything, but here's how I came out.(bold indicates changes)
Intel® Core™2 Duo Processor E6600 (4MB L2 Cache,2.4GHz,1066 FSB)
Genuine Windows® XP Home Edition with re-installation CD
1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz (:note this went down from your 2GB)
250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache™ (note: this went down from your 500GB)
Single Drive: 16X CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW) w/double layer write capability
20 inch E207WFP Widescreen Digital Flat Panel(note this went down from your 22")
256MB ATI Radeon X1300 Pro
Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio
Adobe® Acrobat® Reader 7.0
No Speakers removed from my list to kind of help out
Dell USB Keyboard
Dell Optical USB Mouse
56K PCI Data Fax Modem
Microsoft Works 8.
Norton Internet Security™ 2006 Edition 15-months
1Yr In-Home Service, Parts + Labor - Next Business Day
things I added
IEEE 1394 Adapter
Linksys WUSB300N Wireless-N USB Network Adapter
Logitech QuickCam Fusion Web Camera
What is this? Windows XP™ VCD
Based on what I came up with seems the iMac may not be that great of a deal for a couple hundred less but still seems to be in the same ballpark though. I could be wrong though.
Well heck, I'm not going to install Vista are you?
Yes, you can drop the RAM and HDD size to reduce the price...I bumped them up just to get to $1499. There's no easy 2.16Ghz replacement though so you're stuck with either faster or slower for that model.
The 22" LCD is an analog one. It's only so-so so I would gather the $60 for the 20" is worth it. As far as wireless, Firewire and camera goes, yes, I didn't add those so you are correct. I'd personally rather have 2GB ram but the firewire is certainly useful.
No remote either and likely we both forgot BT. If you can find a media center version then I think it costs $20 for a big ugly thing.
The iMac is overpriced and I've always been consistent in my lack of enthusiasm for the product. I can see its a nice product for the niche, its just not my niche. That doesn't mean that I don't understand how it fits in the Apple lineup or the impact of any xMac on it.
If it wasn't for OSX the thing would sell about as well as Sony's pretty but useless AIO.
Go spec out a 20" iMac vs a Dell with 20" display. Oh wait...I just did like 2 posts ago. The $1499 iMac is about equivalent to a $800-$900 Dell depending on what deals Dell is offering.
I think I picked the wrong model, I got a Dell with 20" that was more than the iMac. It had SLI GPUs but the rest of the spec was the same.
Anyway, I don't think you're factoring in the huge cost of Apple's displays. Look for a spare part for the imac and you will find that a 20" LCD replacement costs about $600 (£450).
It won't cost Apple that much but they won't be cheap with all the ambient sensors on them. I reckon that they cost Apple about $300 at least so that immediately comes off the price of an iMac when you take out the screen. That takes a $1499 iMac to $1199. Now use desktop parts like Dell and you will get pretty close to their $900 even if Apple drop profit margins by $100 or so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
They don't save money...they LOSE money because every iMac is an automatic monitor sale at a large markup.
But they reach a wider audience. Market share goes up, other product sales go up. It's not a simple case of saying if profit margins go down, the company will be worse off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
Then you are a fool that can't see long term. You keep your supplier as well as your customers happy and healthy because in the end you depend on both. Apple provides a useful alternative to other operating systems that has not been replicated and wouldn't likely get replaced should they exit the market.
As I said, this move would be beneficial for them. It certainly wouldn't place them on the way out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
If you don't have satisfaction from Apple products there's a really easy solution. Stop buying them.
I'll probably have to when I next upgrade if they haven't delivered the products I want. If their desktop range only has products starting at £1000 then I'm definitely out but I don't think that will be the case. Apple need to realise that their hardware model is turning people off and it's people who have opinions like yours that will eventually ruin the company because the way your preferred model works keeps Apple's market share low. This is why developers care less about Mac users and there is less support.
It's quite clear to me they are realising this and they wouldn't have even made the Mac Mini if they didn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
mature tower market.
A mature tower market that has surprisingly few well-designed models.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
A cube can't fit everything that folks in this thread want.
It doesn't have to because the iMac doesn't either.
I think I picked the wrong model, I got a Dell with 20" that was more than the iMac. It had SLI GPUs but the rest of the spec was the same.
SLI GPU...gee...ya think that might be the difference?
Quote:
Anyway, I don't think you're factoring in the huge cost of Apple's displays. Look for a spare part for the imac and you will find that a 20" LCD replacement costs about $600 (£450).
Huge cost compared to what? The same glass is used in many cases. The ambient light sensor is not a high cost item.
Quote:
It won't cost Apple that much but they won't be cheap with all the ambient sensors on them. I reckon that they cost Apple about $300 at least so that immediately comes off the price of an iMac when you take out the screen. That takes a $1499 iMac to $1199. Now use desktop parts like Dell and you will get pretty close to their $900 even if Apple drop profit margins by $100 or so.
The point is that Apple overprices their monitors including what they stick in the iMac. "Taking it off" doesn't help Apple maintain profitability.
Dell sells a lot of desktops and therefore has lower pricing on many components than Apple does. This is the same advantage that Apple enjoys with flash memory...they use a ton and their component costs are lower than many competitors.
Trying to play Dell and HP's game on their own turf is simply stupid.
Quote:
But they reach a wider audience. Market share goes up, other product sales go up. It's not a simple case of saying if profit margins go down, the company will be worse off.
There is no certainty or even likelyhood that you will double marketshare. Even if you DO double marketshare by reducing the ASP and profit margins you simply get back to where Apple is today profit and revenue wise but WITH additional support costs and possibly hurt branding to boot.
So you have to vastly increase share to make this strategy worthwhile...and vastly means going from 6% to 18-20% not 10-12%.
Quote:
As I said, this move would be beneficial for them. It certainly wouldn't place them on the way out.
What you said was "The phrase 'not so good for Apple' doesn't really mean anything to me. I'm paying them money that I earn. I don't care for their well-being, I want satisfaction for the money I'm spending."
Which is still a dumb statement. Being selfish is typically a sub-optimal strategy.
Quote:
I'll probably have to when I next upgrade if they haven't delivered the products I want.
Buh bye.
Quote:
If their desktop range only has products starting at £1000 then I'm definitely out but I don't think that will be the case. Apple need to realise that their hardware model is turning people off and it's people who have opinions like yours that will eventually ruin the company because the way your preferred model works keeps Apple's market share low. This is why developers care less about Mac users and there is less support.
Are you on crack? They sell 1.6M machines a quarter and they now have a potentially hugely desirable mobile platform. There are more developers at WWDC than before. Developer interest in on the rise not the wane.
Whine at me when Apple is in decline and not on an upswing. While I would like an xMac it certainly is far less important than the success or failure of the iPhone and appleTV.
Perhaps Apple's hardware model is designed to get the 5% of the market that is most profitable and least whiney. Pareto at its extreme perhaps but seems wildly successful at the moment in comparison to Dell's model.
Quote:
It's quite clear to me they are realising this and they wouldn't have even made the Mac Mini if they didn't.
They want switchers but they want them on their terms. This shouldn't be hard to understand. The mini could use an update and I've been waiting for one for a while now. That they haven't is because that market segment is less important to them than before.
Quote:
A mature tower market that has surprisingly few well-designed models.
And the market has said that design is less important than price. This is why Dell and HP are at the top of the pack.
Quote:
It doesn't have to because the iMac doesn't either.
Pardon my ignorance, but I still don't know what Windows XP? VCD is.(You had it listed in your configuration of the Dell XPS 410 model)
(footnote: I hate Dell's website, it is a complete pain to try and configure a computer.)
Huh...I misread that. I read it as Windows CD. No clue...doesn't appear when I rebuild that model again so I must have injected a typo when I cut and pasted.
SLI GPU...gee...ya think that might be the difference?
Obviously it was but then that wouldn't have cost that much more. It was just using two standard cards. The rest of the spec was the same. Anyway I'm still not sure where this comparison is going.
Are you saying that if Apple built a mid-tower then people still wouldn't buy it because they'd just say Dell is cheaper for the same hardware? If so, I'd still come back to the point about design.
People will pay extra for a machine that looks good, runs quietly and runs OS X. If Apple take what Dell have and add $200 they will make the sale.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
Huge cost compared to what?
Compared to not bundling a display.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
Dell sells a lot of desktops and therefore has lower pricing on many components than Apple does.
So you agree that higher volume lower cost hardware would be a good move.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
Trying to play Dell and HP's game on their own turf is simply stupid.
Just like Apple playing all the smartphone players on their own turf I suppose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
There is no certainty or even likelyhood that you will double marketshare.
Again back to the fact that over 90% of computer users have one and a lot of them would love to run OS X, even so much that they would rather try and hack OS X to run on their PC than buy a Mini or iMac.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
Even if you DO double marketshare by reducing the ASP and profit margins you simply get back to where Apple is today profit and revenue wise but WITH additional support costs and possibly hurt branding to boot.
It won't hurt branding because they'd maintain their design and OS advantages. Their profit wouldn't necessarily be the same because more users means more product sales.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
So you have to vastly increase share to make this strategy worthwhile...and vastly means going from 6% to 18-20% not 10-12%.
Don't be ridiculous. You're saying that a headless mac won't be worthwhile unless that single product at least trebles their marketshare. If Apple still make a 25% markup then profits wouldn't be down much at all and the iMac would still be there generating money. I'd say even a 50% increase in market share would suffice, nowhere near 300%.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
What you said was "The phrase 'not so good for Apple' doesn't really mean anything to me. I'm paying them money that I earn. I don't care for their well-being, I want satisfaction for the money I'm spending."
Which is still a dumb statement. Being selfish is typically a sub-optimal strategy.
If anything paying through the nose for products you don't want with as high profit margins as you claim is a dumb strategy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
Buh bye.
It's a bit early for that. I'll give it until after the new iMacs and Leopard and I'll see what they have on offer then. If there's nothing for me then I will start the transition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
Are you on crack? They sell 1.6M machines a quarter and they now have a potentially hugely desirable mobile platform. There are more developers at WWDC than before. Developer interest in on the rise not the wane.
Developer interest is rising slowly but only because of the more reasonably priced computer models, which have increased Apple's market share. An even more reasonably priced headless Mac would increase this even more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
They want switchers but they want them on their terms. This shouldn't be hard to understand. The mini could use an update and I've been waiting for one for a while now. That they haven't is because that market segment is less important to them than before.
I understand that they think that way but I disagree with them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
And the market has said that design is less important than price. This is why Dell and HP are at the top of the pack.
Not the MP3 player market. Design aside, Dell and HP are top of the pack because they offer what people want, Apple don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
Then you have a mini.
A crippled Mini yes with no graphics options and unnecessarily slower CPUs.
If it wasn't for OSX the thing would sell about as well as Sony's pretty but useless AIO.
Vinea
Have you seen HP's all in one with a 19" TouchSmart screen. It's pretty (ugly). Sells for $1800, but Circuit City has it on sale for $1550. Compare that with a 24" iMac. I imagine people will buy it for the touch screen, which in my humble opinion is useless.
6- Yes there may be some sales stolen from the Mac Pro (and other Macs) if Apple releases a better priced tower, but it may also attract people who wouldn't buy a Mac within the current lineup, who knows? I think that Apple, being healthy right now and having access to all the technology and parts at very good prices, should expand their offering, one at a time, a desktop model here, another notebook form factor there, maybe a tablet-style next year, just to cover, better than they do today, most of the type of usage/customer/needs in the market.
This is what i don't understand. They are supposed to be financially healthy as ever and still limit consumer's choices like hell. This only will be seen as arrogance in the feature and puts a real threat on future marketing strategies.
By saying "you don't need this or that" Jobs is only trying to keep people from saying : "Apple is failing to supply this or that".
And sadly at this moment "this or that" is a true video iPod (coming this september but long overdue) and a midrange mac tower.
Or maybe people with enough posts to know better should stop creating the same goddamned thread about headless iMac or mid-pro tower. I could set my watch by it. Enough.
Brace yourself, as Apple gains more public recognition more and more people will continue to wonder why there seems to be such a large gap in Apple's desktop line-up and post in Applecentric websites. There is a reason for the eternal xMac threads.
OK, Ill call it the Mac midi. Basically half a Mac Pro at about half the price.
Three version (just like the MB) with pricing varying primarily on the processor, plus extra memory and a larger HD. Even a quad being available - at least for a BTO.
So who would buy one>
First the PC users that gave the Mac mini a try and would now like to move up while retaining the display they spent good money on. The jump from the mini to the MP is a bit much for a large group of these new mac users., and the midi would probably fit in fine.
Then there are those that are just starting in graphics, music, etc. that would love a MP, but don't have the cash. The midi gives them a head start and wold be a better option than the iMac if specialized displays are gong to be used, The can upgrade processors, memory and the graphics card as they develop their skills (and income) - eventually gong to the MP.
Education is another good market - for upper levels that teach graphics and other specialties that are ideal for the Mac. The lower pricing allows for a larger number of midis to be purchased.
In terms of university students it might be overkill for those studying History or English Lit, but those in the upper level courses of engineering, science, mathematics, or medicine, etc. would kill for one if they can't afford a MP.
The form factor might not even be a cube. If might be a half size MP of the current design, or an new Mp design if one is released.
Basically I believe that there is a market and I trust Jonathan Ive to ensure it is an exciting design that no one will mistake for a Dull.
Comments
What? Are you incapable of clicking on Dell's site before saying something completely wrong? No, nothing has "dramatically changed". The iMac typically has a poor bang for the buck ratio in comparison to towers.
My XPS 410 Date 6/19/2007 9:48:54 AM Central Standard Time $1499
Intel® Core?2 Duo Processor E6600 (4MB L2 Cache,2.4GHz,1066 FSB)
Genuine Windows® XP Home Edition with re-installation CD
2GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz - 2 DIMMs
500GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache?
Single Drive: 16X CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW) w/double layer write capability
22 inch E228WFP Widescreen Digital Flat Panel
256MB ATI Radeon X1300 Pro
Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio
Adobe® Acrobat® Reader 7.0
Windows XP? VCD
Dell AS501PA 10W Flat Panel Attached Spkrs for Analog Flat Panels
Dell USB Keyboard
Dell Optical USB Mouse
56K PCI Data Fax Modem
Microsoft Works 8.
Norton Internet Security? 2006 Edition 15-months
1Yr In-Home Service, Parts + Labor - Next Business Day
So let see:
2.4 Conroe vs 2.16 Merom
2GB vs 1GB Ram
500GB HDD vs 250GB HDD
256MB ATI X1300 Pro vs 128MB ATI X1600
22" WFP analog display vs 20" WFP digital display
(Can do 20" Ultrasharp WFP digital for $60 more)
iMac crushed. The 24" iMac is even worse.
The $1499 20" iMac is roughly equivalent to $999 Dell or Gateway when there is no promotion going on (none at the moment that I can tell) or $699 like the Gateway rig above which I can't replicate on the Gateway site at the moment (need to add a vid card and maybe bump the monitor on the $699 Gateway...probably comes out around $799).
The iMac sucks except for form factor, elegance and OSX. A $999 xMac will suck slightly less but there's only so much design you can put into a boxy mini-tower form factor given folks in this thread want at least 2 PCIe slots, 4 mem slots, 2 drive bays and a partridge in a pear tree.
Nothing smaller than the larger boxy Shuttles...even the Cube is too small. The best you'll end up with is a mini Mac Pro looking thingy unless you go pizza box with risers.
Vinea
I stand corrected. I will not make that mistake again.
Curious, I took your XPS 410 model, added wireless N, logitech Quick Cam and a firewire PCI card and the total came in at $1649.00.(opps, forgot to add that I lowered some of the things you included, just for fun)
And that's assuming Home Premium compares to Mac OS X with the iLife apps included. Might even have to upgrade to Genuine Windows Vista™ Ultimate to get more closely comparable to Mac OS X, and that would add about another $120, but I didn't.
I'm not saying your wrong or anything, but here's how I came out.(bold indicates changes)
Intel® Core™2 Duo Processor E6600 (4MB L2 Cache,2.4GHz,1066 FSB)
Genuine Windows® XP Home Edition with re-installation CD
1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz (:note this went down from your 2GB)
250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache™ (note: this went down from your 500GB)
Single Drive: 16X CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW) w/double layer write capability
20 inch E207WFP Widescreen Digital Flat Panel(note this went down from your 22")
256MB ATI Radeon X1300 Pro
Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio
Adobe® Acrobat® Reader 7.0
No Speakers removed from my list to kind of help out
Dell USB Keyboard
Dell Optical USB Mouse
56K PCI Data Fax Modem
Microsoft Works 8.
Norton Internet Security™ 2006 Edition 15-months
1Yr In-Home Service, Parts + Labor - Next Business Day
things I added
IEEE 1394 Adapter
Linksys WUSB300N Wireless-N USB Network Adapter
Logitech QuickCam Fusion Web Camera
What is this? Windows XP™ VCD
Based on what I came up with seems the iMac may not be that great of a deal for a couple hundred less but still seems to be in the same ballpark though. I could be wrong though.
What is this? Windows XP™ VCD
Well heck, I'm not going to install Vista are you?
Yes, you can drop the RAM and HDD size to reduce the price...I bumped them up just to get to $1499. There's no easy 2.16Ghz replacement though so you're stuck with either faster or slower for that model.
The 22" LCD is an analog one. It's only so-so so I would gather the $60 for the 20" is worth it. As far as wireless, Firewire and camera goes, yes, I didn't add those so you are correct. I'd personally rather have 2GB ram but the firewire is certainly useful.
No remote either and likely we both forgot BT. If you can find a media center version then I think it costs $20 for a big ugly thing.
The iMac is overpriced and I've always been consistent in my lack of enthusiasm for the product. I can see its a nice product for the niche, its just not my niche. That doesn't mean that I don't understand how it fits in the Apple lineup or the impact of any xMac on it.
If it wasn't for OSX the thing would sell about as well as Sony's pretty but useless AIO.
Vinea
Go spec out a 20" iMac vs a Dell with 20" display. Oh wait...I just did like 2 posts ago. The $1499 iMac is about equivalent to a $800-$900 Dell depending on what deals Dell is offering.
I think I picked the wrong model, I got a Dell with 20" that was more than the iMac. It had SLI GPUs but the rest of the spec was the same.
Anyway, I don't think you're factoring in the huge cost of Apple's displays. Look for a spare part for the imac and you will find that a 20" LCD replacement costs about $600 (£450).
It won't cost Apple that much but they won't be cheap with all the ambient sensors on them. I reckon that they cost Apple about $300 at least so that immediately comes off the price of an iMac when you take out the screen. That takes a $1499 iMac to $1199. Now use desktop parts like Dell and you will get pretty close to their $900 even if Apple drop profit margins by $100 or so.
They don't save money...they LOSE money because every iMac is an automatic monitor sale at a large markup.
But they reach a wider audience. Market share goes up, other product sales go up. It's not a simple case of saying if profit margins go down, the company will be worse off.
Then you are a fool that can't see long term. You keep your supplier as well as your customers happy and healthy because in the end you depend on both. Apple provides a useful alternative to other operating systems that has not been replicated and wouldn't likely get replaced should they exit the market.
As I said, this move would be beneficial for them. It certainly wouldn't place them on the way out.
If you don't have satisfaction from Apple products there's a really easy solution. Stop buying them.
I'll probably have to when I next upgrade if they haven't delivered the products I want. If their desktop range only has products starting at £1000 then I'm definitely out but I don't think that will be the case. Apple need to realise that their hardware model is turning people off and it's people who have opinions like yours that will eventually ruin the company because the way your preferred model works keeps Apple's market share low. This is why developers care less about Mac users and there is less support.
It's quite clear to me they are realising this and they wouldn't have even made the Mac Mini if they didn't.
mature tower market.
A mature tower market that has surprisingly few well-designed models.
A cube can't fit everything that folks in this thread want.
It doesn't have to because the iMac doesn't either.
I think I picked the wrong model, I got a Dell with 20" that was more than the iMac. It had SLI GPUs but the rest of the spec was the same.
SLI GPU...gee...ya think that might be the difference?
Anyway, I don't think you're factoring in the huge cost of Apple's displays. Look for a spare part for the imac and you will find that a 20" LCD replacement costs about $600 (£450).
Huge cost compared to what? The same glass is used in many cases. The ambient light sensor is not a high cost item.
It won't cost Apple that much but they won't be cheap with all the ambient sensors on them. I reckon that they cost Apple about $300 at least so that immediately comes off the price of an iMac when you take out the screen. That takes a $1499 iMac to $1199. Now use desktop parts like Dell and you will get pretty close to their $900 even if Apple drop profit margins by $100 or so.
The point is that Apple overprices their monitors including what they stick in the iMac. "Taking it off" doesn't help Apple maintain profitability.
Dell sells a lot of desktops and therefore has lower pricing on many components than Apple does. This is the same advantage that Apple enjoys with flash memory...they use a ton and their component costs are lower than many competitors.
Trying to play Dell and HP's game on their own turf is simply stupid.
But they reach a wider audience. Market share goes up, other product sales go up. It's not a simple case of saying if profit margins go down, the company will be worse off.
There is no certainty or even likelyhood that you will double marketshare. Even if you DO double marketshare by reducing the ASP and profit margins you simply get back to where Apple is today profit and revenue wise but WITH additional support costs and possibly hurt branding to boot.
So you have to vastly increase share to make this strategy worthwhile...and vastly means going from 6% to 18-20% not 10-12%.
As I said, this move would be beneficial for them. It certainly wouldn't place them on the way out.
What you said was "The phrase 'not so good for Apple' doesn't really mean anything to me. I'm paying them money that I earn. I don't care for their well-being, I want satisfaction for the money I'm spending."
Which is still a dumb statement. Being selfish is typically a sub-optimal strategy.
I'll probably have to when I next upgrade if they haven't delivered the products I want.
Buh bye.
If their desktop range only has products starting at £1000 then I'm definitely out but I don't think that will be the case. Apple need to realise that their hardware model is turning people off and it's people who have opinions like yours that will eventually ruin the company because the way your preferred model works keeps Apple's market share low. This is why developers care less about Mac users and there is less support.
Are you on crack? They sell 1.6M machines a quarter and they now have a potentially hugely desirable mobile platform. There are more developers at WWDC than before. Developer interest in on the rise not the wane.
Whine at me when Apple is in decline and not on an upswing. While I would like an xMac it certainly is far less important than the success or failure of the iPhone and appleTV.
Perhaps Apple's hardware model is designed to get the 5% of the market that is most profitable and least whiney. Pareto at its extreme perhaps but seems wildly successful at the moment in comparison to Dell's model.
It's quite clear to me they are realising this and they wouldn't have even made the Mac Mini if they didn't.
They want switchers but they want them on their terms. This shouldn't be hard to understand. The mini could use an update and I've been waiting for one for a while now. That they haven't is because that market segment is less important to them than before.
A mature tower market that has surprisingly few well-designed models.
And the market has said that design is less important than price. This is why Dell and HP are at the top of the pack.
It doesn't have to because the iMac doesn't either.
Then you have a mini.
Vinea
Well heck, I'm not going to install Vista are you?
....
Vinea
Pardon my ignorance, but I still don't know what Windows XP? VCD is.(You had it listed in your configuration of the Dell XPS 410 model)
(footnote: I hate Dell's website, it is a complete pain to try and configure a computer.)
Pardon my ignorance, but I still don't know what Windows XP? VCD is.(You had it listed in your configuration of the Dell XPS 410 model)
(footnote: I hate Dell's website, it is a complete pain to try and configure a computer.)
Huh...I misread that. I read it as Windows CD. No clue...doesn't appear when I rebuild that model again so I must have injected a typo when I cut and pasted.
Yes, Dell's site is a pain.
Vinea
...Yes, Dell's site is a pain.
Vinea
Oh my god! We agreed!
SLI GPU...gee...ya think that might be the difference?
Obviously it was but then that wouldn't have cost that much more. It was just using two standard cards. The rest of the spec was the same. Anyway I'm still not sure where this comparison is going.
Are you saying that if Apple built a mid-tower then people still wouldn't buy it because they'd just say Dell is cheaper for the same hardware? If so, I'd still come back to the point about design.
People will pay extra for a machine that looks good, runs quietly and runs OS X. If Apple take what Dell have and add $200 they will make the sale.
Huge cost compared to what?
Compared to not bundling a display.
Dell sells a lot of desktops and therefore has lower pricing on many components than Apple does.
So you agree that higher volume lower cost hardware would be a good move.
Trying to play Dell and HP's game on their own turf is simply stupid.
Just like Apple playing all the smartphone players on their own turf I suppose.
There is no certainty or even likelyhood that you will double marketshare.
Again back to the fact that over 90% of computer users have one and a lot of them would love to run OS X, even so much that they would rather try and hack OS X to run on their PC than buy a Mini or iMac.
Even if you DO double marketshare by reducing the ASP and profit margins you simply get back to where Apple is today profit and revenue wise but WITH additional support costs and possibly hurt branding to boot.
It won't hurt branding because they'd maintain their design and OS advantages. Their profit wouldn't necessarily be the same because more users means more product sales.
So you have to vastly increase share to make this strategy worthwhile...and vastly means going from 6% to 18-20% not 10-12%.
Don't be ridiculous. You're saying that a headless mac won't be worthwhile unless that single product at least trebles their marketshare. If Apple still make a 25% markup then profits wouldn't be down much at all and the iMac would still be there generating money. I'd say even a 50% increase in market share would suffice, nowhere near 300%.
What you said was "The phrase 'not so good for Apple' doesn't really mean anything to me. I'm paying them money that I earn. I don't care for their well-being, I want satisfaction for the money I'm spending."
Which is still a dumb statement. Being selfish is typically a sub-optimal strategy.
If anything paying through the nose for products you don't want with as high profit margins as you claim is a dumb strategy.
Buh bye.
It's a bit early for that. I'll give it until after the new iMacs and Leopard and I'll see what they have on offer then. If there's nothing for me then I will start the transition.
Are you on crack? They sell 1.6M machines a quarter and they now have a potentially hugely desirable mobile platform. There are more developers at WWDC than before. Developer interest in on the rise not the wane.
Developer interest is rising slowly but only because of the more reasonably priced computer models, which have increased Apple's market share. An even more reasonably priced headless Mac would increase this even more.
They want switchers but they want them on their terms. This shouldn't be hard to understand. The mini could use an update and I've been waiting for one for a while now. That they haven't is because that market segment is less important to them than before.
I understand that they think that way but I disagree with them.
And the market has said that design is less important than price. This is why Dell and HP are at the top of the pack.
Not the MP3 player market. Design aside, Dell and HP are top of the pack because they offer what people want, Apple don't.
Then you have a mini.
A crippled Mini yes with no graphics options and unnecessarily slower CPUs.
Oh my god! We agreed!
Quick, lock the thread!
If it wasn't for OSX the thing would sell about as well as Sony's pretty but useless AIO.
Vinea
Have you seen HP's all in one with a 19" TouchSmart screen. It's pretty (ugly). Sells for $1800, but Circuit City has it on sale for $1550. Compare that with a 24" iMac. I imagine people will buy it for the touch screen, which in my humble opinion is useless.
Picture:
http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/g...reg_R1002_USEN
Hardware description:
http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/g...reg_R1002_USEN
6- Yes there may be some sales stolen from the Mac Pro (and other Macs) if Apple releases a better priced tower, but it may also attract people who wouldn't buy a Mac within the current lineup, who knows? I think that Apple, being healthy right now and having access to all the technology and parts at very good prices, should expand their offering, one at a time, a desktop model here, another notebook form factor there, maybe a tablet-style next year, just to cover, better than they do today, most of the type of usage/customer/needs in the market.
This is what i don't understand. They are supposed to be financially healthy as ever and still limit consumer's choices like hell. This only will be seen as arrogance in the feature and puts a real threat on future marketing strategies.
By saying "you don't need this or that" Jobs is only trying to keep people from saying : "Apple is failing to supply this or that".
And sadly at this moment "this or that" is a true video iPod (coming this september but long overdue) and a midrange mac tower.
Or maybe people with enough posts to know better should stop creating the same goddamned thread about headless iMac or mid-pro tower. I could set my watch by it. Enough.
Brace yourself, as Apple gains more public recognition more and more people will continue to wonder why there seems to be such a large gap in Apple's desktop line-up and post in Applecentric websites. There is a reason for the eternal xMac threads.
Three version (just like the MB) with pricing varying primarily on the processor, plus extra memory and a larger HD. Even a quad being available - at least for a BTO.
So who would buy one>
First the PC users that gave the Mac mini a try and would now like to move up while retaining the display they spent good money on. The jump from the mini to the MP is a bit much for a large group of these new mac users., and the midi would probably fit in fine.
Then there are those that are just starting in graphics, music, etc. that would love a MP, but don't have the cash. The midi gives them a head start and wold be a better option than the iMac if specialized displays are gong to be used, The can upgrade processors, memory and the graphics card as they develop their skills (and income) - eventually gong to the MP.
Education is another good market - for upper levels that teach graphics and other specialties that are ideal for the Mac. The lower pricing allows for a larger number of midis to be purchased.
In terms of university students it might be overkill for those studying History or English Lit, but those in the upper level courses of engineering, science, mathematics, or medicine, etc. would kill for one if they can't afford a MP.
The form factor might not even be a cube. If might be a half size MP of the current design, or an new Mp design if one is released.
Basically I believe that there is a market and I trust Jonathan Ive to ensure it is an exciting design that no one will mistake for a Dull.