[QB]Pray tell, how the hell are Tabs a "flawed interface element"??? You have tabs everywhere, like in preferences of many apps... heck Apple.com IS ALL ABOUT TABS (notice top of page... only been there for the last, oh, 2-3 years at least).QB]<hr></blockquote>You need to give the subject more thought. While there are pros and cons to tabs, you've failed to touch on any of them.
Apple has never used tabs to switch between multiple documents in the same window. There are huge differences between tabbed control panes and tabbed document interfaces. Tabs have made the path of least resistance less likely to end up at an optimal interface. Tabs are definitely useful but also overused by novice designers. You'll notice that apple forces users to commit changes to controls prior switching tabs. However, this is only true some of the time. In instances where the settings take effect immediately and aren't interrelated, changes require no confirmation. This is in stark contrast to the MS paradigm of forcing users to guess what the window close button does. Also, tabs can be contained in windows with a cancel and OK button. This is almost always bad. Does cancel cancel previous changes in other tabs.
Tabbed documents overload the functionality of window widgets and break the one to one ratio of documents to windows. This is a fundamental divergence from apple's direct manipulation GUI paradigm. Apple has only occasionally put multiple user modified documents into a single window. The most notable instance is in project builder. However, web-browsers have a drastically different user base than do IDEs.
Apple analyzed the trade off. Window control ambiguity is an acceptable sacrifice if you assume that all users are experts. This assumption cannot be made for safari. I really hope that tabs don't get added to Mac OS X document based applications. Tabs are not a new concept and have been purposely left out of the window server.
I can't imagine trying to explain tabs to my grandma. At first its simple... but then try to explain what the file menu items pertain to. With tabs, there is no constant scope for the File menu. Even my brother would probably mess up his online taxes.
The 'Window is your document' metaphor is the least error prone metaphor yet invented for manipulating user created data.
The value of a 1-to-1 ratio between documents and windows is all too easily underestimated by people who didn't experience the pre-direct-manipulation-era.
dfiler, thank you for a perfectly erudite and Human Interface Guidelines-based response: I knew there was a good reason for not having tabs, and, bing, that's the one.
<strong>Couldn't fetch it from SU, so I had to go through the tedious process of filling in bogus contact info on the Safari download page. Got it now. </strong><hr></blockquote>
yeah, it isnt in your applications folder, is it.... FUCKING SOFTWARE UPDATE it should be smart enough to search for the application!
Chimera and Mozilla startup with a single window. By default, when you click on a link or open a new window, it will open a new window. It is only if I go through the preferences and actually fiddle with options (this *usually* already denotes having a minimum amount of computer knowledge) that I start getting Tabs involved with my everyday browsing.
What Im getting to is that its an OPTION. The default can be as it is.. fine. But I would like to have the OPTION of using Tabs too.
I can just as easily have my semi-zero-computer-litterate parents use Chimera/Mozilla as well as have them use Safari. They browse the web in the same identical way. They would never know the difference. Nor would anyone that doesnt know computers. Even if you have "TABS" blatently advertised I'll bet you that 80% of the people using that browser will still browse on a per-window (each page on a separate window) basis as they have always done.
I'd just like to say a thank-you to Apple's Safari team for listening to bug reports from users. The one bug I submitted was hardly serious?When I first got Safari, I tested various web sites I frequent and found one that didn't look quite right. <a href="http://www.stardem.com"; target="_blank">This site</a> (the Easton, Maryland Star Democrat newspaper, my first job out of college in 1998) didn't display properly?the front page image would show up far below where it's supposed to show up. Load the page now with the updated Safari, and it looks correct. I'm sure the bug that caused the page to render incorrectly was a larger issue and not specifically related to this one web site, but it's cool to see that I discovered a problem and Apple fixed the problem.
<strong>What Im getting to is that its an OPTION. The default can be as it is.. fine. But I would like to have the OPTION of using Tabs too.[ 02-12-2003: Message edited by: ZO ]</strong><hr></blockquote>So you're advocating different document management interfaces in the same windowing system? This is possible and even ok in some instances.
However, tabbed documents in a single window should be done at the window server level so that is uniform across all apps. Can you imagine if you had to learn how window controls function differently in each application?
I would never advocate multiple functions for a window-desctruct widget no matter how convenient it makes my work-flow. A document's (window's) close widget should never destroy other documents! Communicating the functionality of overloaded windowing controls is nearly impossible.
Even if an option is off by default, users will eventually stumble upon it. Computer support staff learn this quite quickly. Users will accidentally turn on dangerous features. Sure, non-confirmed deletion of documents in the finder could be accomplished quickest with the delete key. Yet, it would be unconscionable to ship software with such likelihood of accidental data loss.
OK, interesting discussion on TABs. However, I'm not convinced. I agree that tabs throughout the user interface would not be a good thing. However, this is a web browser, designed for surfing the web. Many users do not have DSL/broadband. Tabs groups gives them a way to automatically download multiple pages concurrently for viewing in the background as they view the first tab on screen, maximizing the web experience.
Erudite arguments to the contrary, I would still like to have this functionality in Safari. Will I switch back to Chimera or Mozilla without it? No. But, I'll miss them. I thought using the Mac was all about convenience and improving the user's computer experience? When a new function comes along that so enhances the user experience, it should be embraced, not thrown away because it doesn't fall into some convenient niche of rules. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
One thing that I am loving is the fact that FLASH actually is good on the mac platform. It runs smooth on a lot of the heavy flash sites I know and visit.
As far as tabbed browsing goes, I am for it. On my Ti it is great. It keeps my browsing clean and simple...at least from my standpoint. I understand the points that dfiler brought up and I agree for the most part but I still love tabs when browsing. Just MHO.
I can still either crash or hang Safari with my Java applet (link below in my sig). It runs better than before, but bringing up a Java dialog box from my applet is still fatal to Safari.
Look, it's not like adding tabs would be difficult. It's not like having the option to enable tabbed browsing would confuse anyone. Anyone who can't figure out tabs also wouldn't be able to figure out how to turn them on anyway.
What does enabling tabbing on a systemwide level have to do with any of this? Tabs are just a feature that some people like and some people don't like. I hate how people argue that they are fundamentally flawed and bad, and that it's not even their opinion, that it's just a fact. Not true. It's an opinion.
It's kinda like QWERTY vs. Dvorak. Yes, you can type faster with Dvorak if you know it. But many people don't have the time to learn it, and nearly all the typing inputs today are QWERTY. Therefore, they each have their advantages and disadvantages and it's really one's opinion on whether they prefer one or the other. The main difference between keyboard layouts and tabs is that with keyboard layouts, it's pretty widely accepted that Dvorak is the superior layout but it just happened to not catch on, whereas there's still a lot of debate as to whether tabs or no tabs is superior.
<strong>OK, interesting discussion on TABs. However, I'm not convinced. I agree that tabs throughout the user interface would not be a good thing. However, this is a web browser, designed for surfing the web. Many users do not have DSL/broadband. Tabs groups gives them a way to automatically download multiple pages concurrently for viewing in the background as they view the first tab on screen, maximizing the web experience.
Erudite arguments to the contrary, I would still like to have this functionality in Safari. Will I switch back to Chimera or Mozilla without it? No. But, I'll miss them. I thought using the Mac was all about convenience and improving the user's computer experience? When a new function comes along that so enhances the user experience, it should be embraced, not thrown away because it doesn't fall into some convenient niche of rules. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm with Dave and Zo on this one. Ship it with tabs off by default, but give us the option. Meanwhile, I'll use Safari cause it's faster and cooler and more stable, but I miss Chimera's tabs. Sometimes.
Whoa. Just tried the newer version of Safari... amazing. So much faster, like I'm accessing files on my own disk (I am on super-fast broadband). Chimera was fast but not quite there. Tabs used to be great because I find them easier to navigate than having to click the back and forward buttons, but now I have a mouse with lots of buttons (a Logitech MX700) so I can now use the forward and back thumb buttons for that. And it navigates forward and back SO quickly! I am willing to give up tabs for this. It looks better too... and I figured out a way to work with the bookmark filing system.
Look, it's not like adding tabs would be difficult. It's not like having the option to enable tabbed browsing would confuse anyone. Anyone who can't figure out tabs also wouldn't be able to figure out how to turn them on anyway.
Define not "difficult".
It's been done before - yes.
I'm sure they know how.
but it still takes TIME to implement things like this - you have to design the look, the feel, the way it works, etc
Is it worth:
1. Breaking standardized user interface guidelines that have been in place for a Very Long Time
2. Extra work for a realtively SMALL percentage of end users requesting the feature
3. Putting off fixing actual BUGs in the program, and enhacning speed and performance
Hell no.
I realize that some power users like tabs - and that it should be 'OK' for Apple to add them in.
But it's not OK to break your own interface rules no matter how badly people request it.
(It's bad enough that they broke a bunch with OSX's finder)
<strong>Look, it's not like adding tabs would be difficult.</strong><hr></blockquote>
This is completely wrong.
Even the concept of tabs is difficult, look at the various implementations and their UI problems. "You have more than one tab open, did you mean to close all tabs [yes] [no] (don't ask me again [x])"
Implementing them means duplicating windowing behaviour that you would otherwise get for free from the system.
You've all seen the demo were someone writes a cocoa text editor with seven lines of code. Imagine how many thousand lines it would take to write a cocoa text editor with tabs.
The number one enemy of fast, stable applications is complexity. If your going to get on a high horse about tabs at least recognize that.
<strong>I can still either crash or hang Safari with my Java applet (link below in my sig). It runs better than before, but bringing up a Java dialog box from my applet is still fatal to Safari.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Strangely it worked ok for me except for the fact it won't let me close the window.
Comments
<strong>
Shouldn't that be Safari so goodi?
<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" /> Sorry...
J :cool: </strong><hr></blockquote>
my kung fu style is not as STUPID as yours
[QB]Pray tell, how the hell are Tabs a "flawed interface element"??? You have tabs everywhere, like in preferences of many apps... heck Apple.com IS ALL ABOUT TABS (notice top of page... only been there for the last, oh, 2-3 years at least).QB]<hr></blockquote>You need to give the subject more thought. While there are pros and cons to tabs, you've failed to touch on any of them.
Apple has never used tabs to switch between multiple documents in the same window. There are huge differences between tabbed control panes and tabbed document interfaces. Tabs have made the path of least resistance less likely to end up at an optimal interface. Tabs are definitely useful but also overused by novice designers. You'll notice that apple forces users to commit changes to controls prior switching tabs. However, this is only true some of the time. In instances where the settings take effect immediately and aren't interrelated, changes require no confirmation. This is in stark contrast to the MS paradigm of forcing users to guess what the window close button does. Also, tabs can be contained in windows with a cancel and OK button. This is almost always bad. Does cancel cancel previous changes in other tabs.
Tabbed documents overload the functionality of window widgets and break the one to one ratio of documents to windows. This is a fundamental divergence from apple's direct manipulation GUI paradigm. Apple has only occasionally put multiple user modified documents into a single window. The most notable instance is in project builder. However, web-browsers have a drastically different user base than do IDEs.
Apple analyzed the trade off. Window control ambiguity is an acceptable sacrifice if you assume that all users are experts. This assumption cannot be made for safari. I really hope that tabs don't get added to Mac OS X document based applications. Tabs are not a new concept and have been purposely left out of the window server.
I can't imagine trying to explain tabs to my grandma. At first its simple... but then try to explain what the file menu items pertain to. With tabs, there is no constant scope for the File menu. Even my brother would probably mess up his online taxes.
The 'Window is your document' metaphor is the least error prone metaphor yet invented for manipulating user created data.
The value of a 1-to-1 ratio between documents and windows is all too easily underestimated by people who didn't experience the pre-direct-manipulation-era.
<strong>Couldn't fetch it from SU, so I had to go through the tedious process of filling in bogus contact info on the Safari download page. Got it now.
yeah, it isnt in your applications folder, is it....
...sigh...
Chimera and Mozilla startup with a single window. By default, when you click on a link or open a new window, it will open a new window. It is only if I go through the preferences and actually fiddle with options (this *usually* already denotes having a minimum amount of computer knowledge) that I start getting Tabs involved with my everyday browsing.
What Im getting to is that its an OPTION. The default can be as it is.. fine. But I would like to have the OPTION of using Tabs too.
I can just as easily have my semi-zero-computer-litterate parents use Chimera/Mozilla as well as have them use Safari. They browse the web in the same identical way. They would never know the difference. Nor would anyone that doesnt know computers. Even if you have "TABS" blatently advertised I'll bet you that 80% of the people using that browser will still browse on a per-window (each page on a separate window) basis as they have always done.
[ 02-12-2003: Message edited by: ZO ]</p>
<strong>What Im getting to is that its an OPTION. The default can be as it is.. fine. But I would like to have the OPTION of using Tabs too.[ 02-12-2003: Message edited by: ZO ]</strong><hr></blockquote>So you're advocating different document management interfaces in the same windowing system? This is possible and even ok in some instances.
However, tabbed documents in a single window should be done at the window server level so that is uniform across all apps. Can you imagine if you had to learn how window controls function differently in each application?
I would never advocate multiple functions for a window-desctruct widget no matter how convenient it makes my work-flow. A document's (window's) close widget should never destroy other documents! Communicating the functionality of overloaded windowing controls is nearly impossible.
Even if an option is off by default, users will eventually stumble upon it. Computer support staff learn this quite quickly. Users will accidentally turn on dangerous features. Sure, non-confirmed deletion of documents in the finder could be accomplished quickest with the delete key. Yet, it would be unconscionable to ship software with such likelihood of accidental data loss.
Erudite arguments to the contrary, I would still like to have this functionality in Safari. Will I switch back to Chimera or Mozilla without it? No. But, I'll miss them. I thought using the Mac was all about convenience and improving the user's computer experience? When a new function comes along that so enhances the user experience, it should be embraced, not thrown away because it doesn't fall into some convenient niche of rules. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
As far as tabbed browsing goes, I am for it. On my Ti it is great. It keeps my browsing clean and simple...at least from my standpoint. I understand the points that dfiler brought up and I agree for the most part but I still love tabs when browsing. Just MHO.
Hotmail works now!
One step closer to needing no other browser...im trying, i really am...
What does enabling tabbing on a systemwide level have to do with any of this? Tabs are just a feature that some people like and some people don't like. I hate how people argue that they are fundamentally flawed and bad, and that it's not even their opinion, that it's just a fact. Not true. It's an opinion.
It's kinda like QWERTY vs. Dvorak. Yes, you can type faster with Dvorak if you know it. But many people don't have the time to learn it, and nearly all the typing inputs today are QWERTY. Therefore, they each have their advantages and disadvantages and it's really one's opinion on whether they prefer one or the other. The main difference between keyboard layouts and tabs is that with keyboard layouts, it's pretty widely accepted that Dvorak is the superior layout but it just happened to not catch on, whereas there's still a lot of debate as to whether tabs or no tabs is superior.
<strong>OK, interesting discussion on TABs. However, I'm not convinced. I agree that tabs throughout the user interface would not be a good thing. However, this is a web browser, designed for surfing the web. Many users do not have DSL/broadband. Tabs groups gives them a way to automatically download multiple pages concurrently for viewing in the background as they view the first tab on screen, maximizing the web experience.
Erudite arguments to the contrary, I would still like to have this functionality in Safari. Will I switch back to Chimera or Mozilla without it? No. But, I'll miss them. I thought using the Mac was all about convenience and improving the user's computer experience? When a new function comes along that so enhances the user experience, it should be embraced, not thrown away because it doesn't fall into some convenient niche of rules. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm with Dave and Zo on this one. Ship it with tabs off by default, but give us the option. Meanwhile, I'll use Safari cause it's faster and cooler and more stable, but I miss Chimera's tabs. Sometimes.
Define not "difficult".
It's been done before - yes.
I'm sure they know how.
but it still takes TIME to implement things like this - you have to design the look, the feel, the way it works, etc
Is it worth:
1. Breaking standardized user interface guidelines that have been in place for a Very Long Time
2. Extra work for a realtively SMALL percentage of end users requesting the feature
3. Putting off fixing actual BUGs in the program, and enhacning speed and performance
Hell no.
I realize that some power users like tabs - and that it should be 'OK' for Apple to add them in.
But it's not OK to break your own interface rules no matter how badly people request it.
(It's bad enough that they broke a bunch with OSX's finder)
[ 02-13-2003: Message edited by: cinder ]</p>
<strong>Look, it's not like adding tabs would be difficult.</strong><hr></blockquote>
This is completely wrong.
Even the concept of tabs is difficult, look at the various implementations and their UI problems. "You have more than one tab open, did you mean to close all tabs [yes] [no] (don't ask me again [x])"
Implementing them means duplicating windowing behaviour that you would otherwise get for free from the system.
You've all seen the demo were someone writes a cocoa text editor with seven lines of code. Imagine how many thousand lines it would take to write a cocoa text editor with tabs.
The number one enemy of fast, stable applications is complexity. If your going to get on a high horse about tabs at least recognize that.
<strong>I can still either crash or hang Safari with my Java applet (link below in my sig). It runs better than before, but bringing up a Java dialog box from my applet is still fatal to Safari.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Strangely it worked ok for me except for the fact it won't let me close the window.
Edit: Also broken pull down menus it seems =P
[ 02-13-2003: Message edited by: Telomar ]</p>