Under this definition, there are no applications. They are documents. If its got a window and you're doing something to its contents, then whatever is doing something to its contents is a part of the document. Umm, no.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Segue...
Well, unix *was* designed around the "everything is a file/doc" metaphor...and Bell Labs took it to the extreme with Plan 9.
<strong>Good contribution. I like your enthusiasm.
A little debate never killed anyone.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Oh I debated the hell out of this thread up to , I think, page three. I have pretty much given up as I haven't read anything new here since about the fourth page. I personally think that tabs are helpful in some cases. But then again, they are just tabs. I cared for about 4 hours last night when this thread first blew up.
Well, unix *was* designed around the "everything is a file/doc" metaphor...and Bell Labs took it to the extreme with Plan 9. </strong><hr></blockquote>
This is Mac OS, not some random UNIX philosophy. I know full well that X is based on UNIX, but that doesn't mean it has to inherit its UI tendencies.
You guys need to realize that you're participating in history...this thread will long be remembered as the "Great Tab Debate of '03" to future AI members. They'll only know it via reference, they won't remember any of the passionate arguments, the eloquent metaphors or the stupid pig-headedness of it all.
<strong>I think Eugene was just being facetious.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Good observation!
And I doubt this thread will be remembered by anyone more than a month from now. And definitely will be erased from the minds of everyone once the 970 arrives.
I admire your stand on standards. I'm the same way, if something is done in a particular manner I then expect to use that learned standard for the rest of the subject, task, etc. However, standards are only a part of the total. Logic, efficiency and what "feels" natural comes into play as well. By reading your posts I can tell you are well versed with Mac history and it's UI logic, I therefore assume that you know how the Mac UI came to be. Yes, I'm talking about the desktop metaphor.
Fast forward to today. The desktop has become more of an office than a desktop - this desk is way too cluttered, too many apps with too many windows open all over the place. But nonetheless let's look at it as a desktop. Now, you have piles of paper all over your desk. Most likely you have them organized in some manner, but because you have too many categories you have them piled up on top on top of each other. When you want to do work on a certain category you "naturally" grab the entire pile for that category. Do you want any file from this category lost in with the others? No, you don't, so you keep it separate from the others. (Example: Preferences Window) Yes, sometimes you do need to grab a file out from it's category so you can use it with a file from a different category.
My point is this. There's no perfect solution, however, any reduction to the number of windows you have open is surely the best. The use of Tabs is a good solution when implemented properly. When I'm browsing the web I don't really need windows opening on top of each other. With some other app I might need to have windows opening separately (example: Photoshop), but not for browsing the Internet. It's more efficient to have a visual identification of what windows I have open and what order they where opened in (a new tab is always created to the right). It's more natural to use tabs in this fashion then not. Why? Because when I'm working with files in the real world, I usually tab between them. I don't refer to a list (menu bar) to find the file nor do I open up a drawer (Dock) to get it. It's an annoyance when I need to move the browser's window aside to refer some other apps file and finding another window from the browser in my way (see real world example above: move a pile from a category to get something else from another) . Even with apps whose work type requires separate windows like Photoshop, it would be beneficial to have a tab implementation of some sort giving a visual reference to open files so as to easily switch between each. Yes, it's great that I can do it via the Dock, but via the app itself is more efficient for when my mind is on the app. It feels unnatural to go to the Dock for this. The Doc is a place I go to get other files or other apps that I'm not currently working with.
Yes, yes, yes, standards are a good thing, but there is no reason why we can't have standards within each app, the app itself has a standard within itself. Look at the iTunes's UI, it behaves different than any other app, I see no one complaining, why? Because it feels natural and it works perfect for what it needs to do.
What happens when the tab bar gets full? What happens when the browser window's width is reduced?
You will rapidly find the answer to why the horizontal tab interface is flawed.
I hate the concept...but if it were to be implemented to satisfy people following the Tab Fad, for f**k's sake, implement it so that there's less of a name truncation problem.
Gawd...what is Apple doing. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>I suppose what will happen is the same thing that happens now when elements of a toolbar or bookmark bar are hidden by a short window. A little double arrow appears on the right and you can click on it to see a list of the items. Just because it's limited doesn't mean it's flawed.
Menus can get out of control too when too many items are in them and you have to scroll them past the bottom of the screen. Are menus flawed? I fill up my desktop with docs so much that icons start overlapping - are desktop icons flawed? No, I just have to use them properly and stop scattering them all over the place like I do.
Same with tabs. If you use them to excess it gets unwieldy (just like too many windows or desktop icons), but used appropriately, it's fine.
How about this: A new bookmark bar item with a pop-up menu containing all the "tabs." That way you don't run into the problem of too many tabs bumping up against the limited width of the window. I think that would be better than the window menu because then the windows aren't all over the screen, and one click can close all the tabs in that browser window.
Question for Safari 62 users - when tabs are enabled, how do you tell the browser to open a new window vs. a new tab? Which one happens when a new window would normally open?
One thing I like about tabs is that you can immediately see how many pages are open. With separate windows, you have to go to the menu or the dock icon. Sometimes I end up having windows open that I don't even remember opening. Or I close the last window when I don't want to. Or I close a window and realize I should have hit back instead. With tabs, I usually only have one window open so I don't have to worry about accidentally opening new ones or closing the last one. I also don't have to use the back and forward commands very often because any links I want I use a tab for.
I would also like it if Safari allowed you to open new windows in the background instead of the foreground. It helps a lot for browsing forums.
I did temporarily set my mouse to switch windows with the up and down buttons (it's a Logitech MX700), but it's not as convenient as using those same buttons for switching tabs. Not that tabs don't have their flaws, but in my particular case they aren't as good. Tab switching with the mouse buttons is easier than window switching with the mouse buttons, but if not for that mouse I think I'd prefer a no-tabs browser.
I still would use Chimera, though, if only for the keychain. I love that. If Safari gets that, I will seriously consider switching to Safari. I like that much more than tabs.
Question for Safari 62 users - when tabs are enabled, how do you tell the browser to open a new window vs. a new tab? Which one happens when a new window would normally open?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I would also like it if Safari allowed you to open new windows in the background instead of the foreground. It helps a lot for browsing forums.</strong><hr></blockquote>
<strong>I would also like it if Safari allowed you to open new windows in the background instead of the foreground. It helps a lot for browsing forums.</strong><hr></blockquote>
press cmd when clicking on a link. only in OmniWeb tough.
What's with all the helpful, informative posts. Back to the flaming:
You can tell tab-fans are user-interface-dyslexic because they can't even tell the difference between browser tabs, standard Apple HIG tabs, and the Amazon-style internet tabs.
And Apple is listening to these guys! The inmates are running the asylum.
Anyone remember the Simpsons episode when Homer gets to design his perfect car:
[quote]I want a horn here, here, and here.
You can never find a horn when you're mad.
And they should all play `La Cucaracha'.
-- Homer, designing a car, ``Oh Brother, Where Art Thou?''<hr></blockquote>
1: Tabs are the epitome of all the UI evil in this world. Yes, I realize that some people like, or even need them, but those people do not understand the evil they are unleashing, they are deceived, addicted (and probably gay to.) The devil sent tabs from hell to destroy us, and if they stay on this earth another day, OS X will begin on an unstoppable decent until its UI is less bearable then using DOS on a 486 with a broken keyboard and bleeding fingers.
2: Tabs are a bad idea. Trying (and failing) to solve a problem that wasn?t really there in the first place. If you want to use them, fine. But I will have no part in your MDI hell.
3: Tabs? Huh? WIll they make the 970 get here any faster?
4: Tabs are a cool Idea, and in my opinion they reduce clutter allow me quick and easy access to the web pages I have loaded. Easier then say, using the windows menu or minimizing them in the dock. If you don?t like them, don?t use them. But quit raining on my parade.
5:I would rather sell my family, give up both heroin and crack cold turkey, then loose my precious precious tabs. I will NEVER allow those UI Nazis to take my precious. MY PRECIOUSSSSSSSSSSS
[quote]2: Tabs are a bad idea. Trying (and failing) to solve a problem that wasn?t really there in the first place. If you want to use them, fine. But I will have no part in your MDI hell.
<hr></blockquote>
because:
I use them when I'm using phoenix on windows but don't feel the need on Mac OS X.
I would prefer Apple to spend it's time and effort produced more innovative approaches to solve the browsing interface problems.
I worry about how implementing the tab interface will affect the rest of the GUI and code complexity. (This *is* a problem, though I have seen it vehemently denied in this thread.)
Example problem: what should the snapback and Google snapback buttons do if you have since moved to a different tab? If you mark a page for snapback, switch tabs and mark again does it overwrite the last one?
I seem to prefer it when Apple doesn't listen to its customers.
Comments
<strong>
Under this definition, there are no applications. They are documents. If its got a window and you're doing something to its contents, then whatever is doing something to its contents is a part of the document. Umm, no.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Segue...
Well, unix *was* designed around the "everything is a file/doc" metaphor...and Bell Labs took it to the extreme with Plan 9.
<strong>Good contribution. I like your enthusiasm.
A little debate never killed anyone.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Oh I debated the hell out of this thread up to , I think, page three. I have pretty much given up as I haven't read anything new here since about the fourth page. I personally think that tabs are helpful in some cases. But then again, they are just tabs. I cared for about 4 hours last night when this thread first blew up.
<strong>
Segue...
Well, unix *was* designed around the "everything is a file/doc" metaphor...and Bell Labs took it to the extreme with Plan 9.
This is Mac OS, not some random UNIX philosophy. I know full well that X is based on UNIX, but that doesn't mean it has to inherit its UI tendencies.
Mostly that last part.
<strong>I think Eugene was just being facetious.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Good observation!
And I doubt this thread will be remembered by anyone more than a month from now. And definitely will be erased from the minds of everyone once the 970 arrives.
Fast forward to today. The desktop has become more of an office than a desktop - this desk is way too cluttered, too many apps with too many windows open all over the place. But nonetheless let's look at it as a desktop. Now, you have piles of paper all over your desk. Most likely you have them organized in some manner, but because you have too many categories you have them piled up on top on top of each other. When you want to do work on a certain category you "naturally" grab the entire pile for that category. Do you want any file from this category lost in with the others? No, you don't, so you keep it separate from the others. (Example: Preferences Window) Yes, sometimes you do need to grab a file out from it's category so you can use it with a file from a different category.
My point is this. There's no perfect solution, however, any reduction to the number of windows you have open is surely the best. The use of Tabs is a good solution when implemented properly. When I'm browsing the web I don't really need windows opening on top of each other. With some other app I might need to have windows opening separately (example: Photoshop), but not for browsing the Internet. It's more efficient to have a visual identification of what windows I have open and what order they where opened in (a new tab is always created to the right). It's more natural to use tabs in this fashion then not. Why? Because when I'm working with files in the real world, I usually tab between them. I don't refer to a list (menu bar) to find the file nor do I open up a drawer (Dock) to get it. It's an annoyance when I need to move the browser's window aside to refer some other apps file and finding another window from the browser in my way (see real world example above: move a pile from a category to get something else from another) . Even with apps whose work type requires separate windows like Photoshop, it would be beneficial to have a tab implementation of some sort giving a visual reference to open files so as to easily switch between each. Yes, it's great that I can do it via the Dock, but via the app itself is more efficient for when my mind is on the app. It feels unnatural to go to the Dock for this. The Doc is a place I go to get other files or other apps that I'm not currently working with.
Yes, yes, yes, standards are a good thing, but there is no reason why we can't have standards within each app, the app itself has a standard within itself. Look at the iTunes's UI, it behaves different than any other app, I see no one complaining, why? Because it feels natural and it works perfect for what it needs to do.
<strong>Tab-fans answer this question:
What happens when the tab bar gets full? What happens when the browser window's width is reduced?
You will rapidly find the answer to why the horizontal tab interface is flawed.
I hate the concept...but if it were to be implemented to satisfy people following the Tab Fad, for f**k's sake, implement it so that there's less of a name truncation problem.
Gawd...what is Apple doing. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>I suppose what will happen is the same thing that happens now when elements of a toolbar or bookmark bar are hidden by a short window. A little double arrow appears on the right and you can click on it to see a list of the items. Just because it's limited doesn't mean it's flawed.
Menus can get out of control too when too many items are in them and you have to scroll them past the bottom of the screen. Are menus flawed? I fill up my desktop with docs so much that icons start overlapping - are desktop icons flawed? No, I just have to use them properly and stop scattering them all over the place like I do.
Same with tabs. If you use them to excess it gets unwieldy (just like too many windows or desktop icons), but used appropriately, it's fine.
How about this: A new bookmark bar item with a pop-up menu containing all the "tabs." That way you don't run into the problem of too many tabs bumping up against the limited width of the window. I think that would be better than the window menu because then the windows aren't all over the screen, and one click can close all the tabs in that browser window.
Question for Safari 62 users - when tabs are enabled, how do you tell the browser to open a new window vs. a new tab? Which one happens when a new window would normally open?
<strong>JLL, i might say the same about you, but you told me to go shoot myself, so...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, you said I was full of crap, so
[ 02-25-2003: Message edited by: JLL ]</p>
<strong>But a document can send e-mail too. Mail.app does this either in a main window or in a separate window. </strong><hr></blockquote>
You're stretching!
It's Mail that's sending the mail, not the document.
It's not the browser that's sending a webmail but the application inside the window (and the document being a text window).
Why do you think that Microsoft concetrated on killing Netscape? Because web browsers are able to run applications without relying on the OS.
I would also like it if Safari allowed you to open new windows in the background instead of the foreground. It helps a lot for browsing forums.
I did temporarily set my mouse to switch windows with the up and down buttons (it's a Logitech MX700), but it's not as convenient as using those same buttons for switching tabs. Not that tabs don't have their flaws, but in my particular case they aren't as good. Tab switching with the mouse buttons is easier than window switching with the mouse buttons, but if not for that mouse I think I'd prefer a no-tabs browser.
I still would use Chimera, though, if only for the keychain. I love that. If Safari gets that, I will seriously consider switching to Safari. I like that much more than tabs.
<strong>
Question for Safari 62 users - when tabs are enabled, how do you tell the browser to open a new window vs. a new tab? Which one happens when a new window would normally open?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Cmd-N to open new window - Cmd-T to open new tab.
<strong>
I would also like it if Safari allowed you to open new windows in the background instead of the foreground. It helps a lot for browsing forums.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Cmd-Shift-Click
<strong>I would also like it if Safari allowed you to open new windows in the background instead of the foreground. It helps a lot for browsing forums.</strong><hr></blockquote>
press cmd when clicking on a link. only in OmniWeb tough.
You can tell tab-fans are user-interface-dyslexic because they can't even tell the difference between browser tabs, standard Apple HIG tabs, and the Amazon-style internet tabs.
And Apple is listening to these guys! The inmates are running the asylum.
Anyone remember the Simpsons episode when Homer gets to design his perfect car:
[quote]I want a horn here, here, and here.
You can never find a horn when you're mad.
And they should all play `La Cucaracha'.
-- Homer, designing a car, ``Oh Brother, Where Art Thou?''<hr></blockquote>
On a scale of 1 to 5 how much do you like tabs:
1: Tabs are the epitome of all the UI evil in this world. Yes, I realize that some people like, or even need them, but those people do not understand the evil they are unleashing, they are deceived, addicted (and probably gay to.) The devil sent tabs from hell to destroy us, and if they stay on this earth another day, OS X will begin on an unstoppable decent until its UI is less bearable then using DOS on a 486 with a broken keyboard and bleeding fingers.
2: Tabs are a bad idea. Trying (and failing) to solve a problem that wasn?t really there in the first place. If you want to use them, fine. But I will have no part in your MDI hell.
3: Tabs? Huh? WIll they make the 970 get here any faster?
4: Tabs are a cool Idea, and in my opinion they reduce clutter allow me quick and easy access to the web pages I have loaded. Easier then say, using the windows menu or minimizing them in the dock. If you don?t like them, don?t use them. But quit raining on my parade.
5:I would rather sell my family, give up both heroin and crack cold turkey, then loose my precious precious tabs. I will NEVER allow those UI Nazis to take my precious. MY PRECIOUSSSSSSSSSSS
<strong>Anyone remember the Simpsons episode when Homer gets to design his perfect car</strong><hr></blockquote>
[quote]2: Tabs are a bad idea. Trying (and failing) to solve a problem that wasn?t really there in the first place. If you want to use them, fine. But I will have no part in your MDI hell.
<hr></blockquote>
because:
I use them when I'm using phoenix on windows but don't feel the need on Mac OS X.
I would prefer Apple to spend it's time and effort produced more innovative approaches to solve the browsing interface problems.
I worry about how implementing the tab interface will affect the rest of the GUI and code complexity. (This *is* a problem, though I have seen it vehemently denied in this thread.)
Example problem: what should the snapback and Google snapback buttons do if you have since moved to a different tab? If you mark a page for snapback, switch tabs and mark again does it overwrite the last one?
I seem to prefer it when Apple doesn't listen to its customers.