Anyone care to address this?</strong><hr></blockquote>
It was addressed...the lighter brushed-metal foreground color is to give a sense that the webpage you're looking at right now is attached to the navigation controls at the top of the window. Ya know...it's to give a feel that tabs in the darker portion aren't being affected by the nav controls.
I actually agree that it makes sense...although the 'upside down' tab shouldn't have a tab-appearance at all, imo...it should be attached to the content...in other words, the Safari team should lose that little gap between the tab and the page at the very least.
[ 02-25-2003: Message edited by: kim kap sol ]</p>
I think why I've never really got into using non-tabbed browsers is because I don't have a way to instantly see how many pages I'm browsing in a multi-window browser. I have to go to the window menu and check. With tabs, at least I can immediately see if I'm browsing other pages. Truncation isn't a problem unless I'm opening many, many topics at once on a web board, and even then, I clicked all those links because I was interested so I don't really care that I can't read them. When I'm not browsing multiple topics at a message board, I usually have less than five tabs open, so I can easily see everything.
I did try getting Pith for Safari, which allows quick switching between multiple windows, and even uses favicons to help it out, but I just don't like little floating windows as they get in the way. Tabs take up room too, but like the menu bar at the top of the screen, they aren't in front of anything... they just reduce vertical space slightly.
If there was something like a drawer (well, not a drawer, just a divider, I hate drawers) or section off to the side where you could switch between pages, and there was a preview of the pages, just like that mockup, I'd like that. Although it seems to take a lot of screen area, I don't really care about the loss of horizontal area. Vertical area is really at a premium because of wide screens and the dock. But I could give up horizontal area any day.
In my opinion, tabs are a slightly flawed UI element, but I still like them myself. They are useful to me. Much worse is the dock. I want it to take less room while showing more information... which is entirely possible. At least I turned off magnification, that's the worst part of it. It's still kind of annoying how much room it takes up while not really providing you with much more information than the tiny Application Menu in Classic did.
Oh, I also want the ability to change energy saver settings from my battery menubar, it's stupid to have to either use Apple's premade "automatic" setting or to have to change settings whenever I unplug my computer. Maybe there's a 3rd party hack to do that.
Oh, I also want the ability to change energy saver settings from my battery menubar, it's stupid to have to either use Apple's premade "automatic" setting or to have to change settings whenever I unplug my computer. Maybe there's a 3rd party hack to do that.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Can you not do this with the new GUI scripting features of Applescipt? Then you could just stick it in the Applescript Menu in the Menubar.
I've only recently dabbled with Applescript but so far it rocks me like a hurricane. With Youpi Key and/or the Ericsson Clicker you can do almost anything at the press of a button on my mac keyboard or my T86i phone.
Here's an example of what I'm afraid will happen (is happening) by having Safari use tabs:
[quote]I would like tabbed windows for all applications, available beneath the title bar and anchored to the left-hand side. It would be perfect when having six or seven Photoshop files open at a given time, eliminating the need to 'minimize' and fill up the dock. That would be perfect.<hr></blockquote>
My apologies then. It was getting rather tedious reading through all the pro and con arguments.
[quote]<strong>
... the lighter brushed-metal foreground color is to give a sense that the webpage you're looking at right now is attached to the navigation controls at the top of the window. Ya know...it's to give a feel that tabs in the darker portion aren't being affected by the nav controls.
I actually agree that it makes sense...although the 'upside down' tab shouldn't have a tab-appearance at all, imo...it should be attached to the content...in other words, the Safari team should lose that little gap between the tab and the page at the very least.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
But what if one is to have multiple rows of tabs. Wouldn?t using the color scheme as adopted with the bookmarks make more sense? (Not to speak of the aesthetics problems this current scheme presents).
But what if one is to have multiple rows of tabs. Wouldn’t using the color scheme as adopted with the bookmarks make more sense? (Not to speak of the aesthetics problems this current scheme presents).</strong><hr></blockquote>
There won't be multiple rows of tabs. Use Windows to see why this is such Bad Thing(tm).
I would like tabbed windows for all applications, available beneath the title bar and anchored to the left-hand side. It would be perfect when having six or seven Photoshop files open at a given time, eliminating the need to 'minimize' and fill up the dock. That would be perfect.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's an excellent UI element that SHOULD be added TO ALL APPs! Yes, a way to see open windows/files from the app you are currently using. And it will someday be despite what you ant-tab people think, by the way you guys remind me of the DOS geeks back when the Mac was introduced going on about how a GUI is silly and how it slows you down, at any rate, the use of tabs to show open windows is the solution to a busy desktop, the Dock is the WRONG place for it.
I can see why some of you are against the idea. Windows implementation of tabs is soooooo stupid and having windows within widows is even more moronic. The addition of navigational tabs to apps is hardly the same as window's stupid UI.
That's an excellent UI element that SHOULD be added TO ALL APPs! Yes, a way to see open windows/files from the app you are currently using. And it will someday be despite what you ant-tab people think, by the way you guys remind me of the DOS geeks back when the Mac was introduced going on about how a GUI is silly and how it slows you down, at any rate, the use of tabs to show open windows is the solution to a busy desktop, the Dock is the WRONG place for it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
One question: how would you drag and drop without it being a serious PITA not only among apps, but even within the same app? Tabs are windows within windows, and the windows are even harder to use together. Tabs are such an inherently insular and static UI element, they hurt anyone ability to do work with efficiency. Does everyone else really just do work in one window at a time? doesn't anyone use even two widows at a time? doesn't anyone have their apps communicate with one another? Tabs hurt drag-n-drop, aka, point-and-click operation quite a bit. I am fast with a Mac. That's because I can drag and drop at will, something much more cumbersome on any Windows computer. You can of course still use the pasteboard, but drag-n-drop is not only faster, it's simpler, more easily learned. Tabs make it harder to use a machine in a very essential way. I'm not willing to risk such a fundamental - possibly the only really intuitive - aspect of computer behavior. It's a foundation of the Mac OS. To comporomise drag-n-drop compromises a Mac advatage, makes using a mac much harder, especially for new users who will not be able to not only multitask but share info among documents.
I object to tabbed browsing not for the immediate loss or benefit to Safari or browsers, but for the long-term prospect that it threatens to make computer use more complicated, if perhaps a little neater. It really is a Pandora's box we're opening.
Yes, and FAR more difficult to learn and drag to. Drag and drop on open windows is that important. It's the most important part of the user experience.
That's not a PITA? Do they spring back to the original open tab if you mouse off it or do they stick to the previously open tab? Is the necessary delay in the spring action going to save you time?
In the end we're defining new widgets and behaviors ...and promoting single window/pane operation.
When the surface of the world is a smoldering pile of ash because of all this, I'll be huddled in my dug-out cave mumbling "I told you so...I told you!!!"
I can't believe all the GUI research was for naught and GUI movement is actually regressing.
I guess after evolution there's always a devolution. Just like dinosaurs came and went. Good GUIs will also have come and is starting to go.
In this day of large screens and fast computers and multitasking OSs people decide they'd rather go back to a 1-window interface to reduce clutter, CPU/memory usage and destroy all possible multitasking between apps.
Tabs might have been great on the 8MHz, 128k mem, 9" screen Mac 128k...but today? Good lord!
You're all a bunch of single-tasking morons.
[ 02-25-2003: Message edited by: kim kap sol ]</p>
In this day of large screens and fast computers and multitasking OSs people decide they'd rather go back to a 1-window interface to reduce clutter, CPU/memory usage and destroy all possible multitasking between apps.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm sorry all of us don't have 23" Cinema Displays.
[quote]You're all a bunch of single-tasking morons.<hr></blockquote>
Comments
<strong>
.. shouldn?t the color scheme on the tabs be reversed, like it is on the bookmarks?
Anyone care to address this?
<strong>
Anyone care to address this?</strong><hr></blockquote>
It was addressed...the lighter brushed-metal foreground color is to give a sense that the webpage you're looking at right now is attached to the navigation controls at the top of the window. Ya know...it's to give a feel that tabs in the darker portion aren't being affected by the nav controls.
I actually agree that it makes sense...although the 'upside down' tab shouldn't have a tab-appearance at all, imo...it should be attached to the content...in other words, the Safari team should lose that little gap between the tab and the page at the very least.
[ 02-25-2003: Message edited by: kim kap sol ]</p>
I did try getting Pith for Safari, which allows quick switching between multiple windows, and even uses favicons to help it out, but I just don't like little floating windows as they get in the way. Tabs take up room too, but like the menu bar at the top of the screen, they aren't in front of anything... they just reduce vertical space slightly.
If there was something like a drawer (well, not a drawer, just a divider, I hate drawers) or section off to the side where you could switch between pages, and there was a preview of the pages, just like that mockup, I'd like that. Although it seems to take a lot of screen area, I don't really care about the loss of horizontal area. Vertical area is really at a premium because of wide screens and the dock. But I could give up horizontal area any day.
In my opinion, tabs are a slightly flawed UI element, but I still like them myself. They are useful to me. Much worse is the dock. I want it to take less room while showing more information... which is entirely possible. At least I turned off magnification, that's the worst part of it. It's still kind of annoying how much room it takes up while not really providing you with much more information than the tiny Application Menu in Classic did.
Oh, I also want the ability to change energy saver settings from my battery menubar, it's stupid to have to either use Apple's premade "automatic" setting or to have to change settings whenever I unplug my computer. Maybe there's a 3rd party hack to do that.
<strong>
Oh, I also want the ability to change energy saver settings from my battery menubar, it's stupid to have to either use Apple's premade "automatic" setting or to have to change settings whenever I unplug my computer. Maybe there's a 3rd party hack to do that.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Can you not do this with the new GUI scripting features of Applescipt? Then you could just stick it in the Applescript Menu in the Menubar.
I've only recently dabbled with Applescript but so far it rocks me like a hurricane. With Youpi Key and/or the Ericsson Clicker you can do almost anything at the press of a button on my mac keyboard or my T86i phone.
FOUR!
QUATTRO!
FOUR!
4
[quote]I would like tabbed windows for all applications, available beneath the title bar and anchored to the left-hand side. It would be perfect when having six or seven Photoshop files open at a given time, eliminating the need to 'minimize' and fill up the dock. That would be perfect.<hr></blockquote>
<a href="http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=147422&perpage=50&pagen umber=2" target="_blank">http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=147422&perpage=50&pagen umber=2</a>
<strong>
It was addressed...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
My apologies then. It was getting rather tedious reading through all the pro and con arguments.
[quote]<strong>
... the lighter brushed-metal foreground color is to give a sense that the webpage you're looking at right now is attached to the navigation controls at the top of the window. Ya know...it's to give a feel that tabs in the darker portion aren't being affected by the nav controls.
I actually agree that it makes sense...although the 'upside down' tab shouldn't have a tab-appearance at all, imo...it should be attached to the content...in other words, the Safari team should lose that little gap between the tab and the page at the very least.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
But what if one is to have multiple rows of tabs. Wouldn?t using the color scheme as adopted with the bookmarks make more sense? (Not to speak of the aesthetics problems this current scheme presents).
<strong>
But what if one is to have multiple rows of tabs. Wouldn’t using the color scheme as adopted with the bookmarks make more sense? (Not to speak of the aesthetics problems this current scheme presents).</strong><hr></blockquote>
There won't be multiple rows of tabs. Use Windows to see why this is such Bad Thing(tm).
<strong>
There won't be multiple rows of tabs. Use Windows to see why this is such Bad Thing(tm).</strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
I?d rather serve 3 weeks in Gaza.
<strong>Here's an example of what I'm afraid will happen (is happening) by having Safari use tabs:
<a href="http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=147422&perpage=50&pagen umber=2" target="_blank">http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=147422&perpage=50&pagen umber=2</a></strong><hr></blockquote>
It's happening...
<img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> <img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[surprised]" /> <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
<strong>Here's an example of what I'm afraid will happen (is happening) by having Safari use tabs:
quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would like tabbed windows for all applications, available beneath the title bar and anchored to the left-hand side. It would be perfect when having six or seven Photoshop files open at a given time, eliminating the need to 'minimize' and fill up the dock. That would be perfect.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's an excellent UI element that SHOULD be added TO ALL APPs! Yes, a way to see open windows/files from the app you are currently using. And it will someday be despite what you ant-tab people think, by the way you guys remind me of the DOS geeks back when the Mac was introduced going on about how a GUI is silly and how it slows you down, at any rate, the use of tabs to show open windows is the solution to a busy desktop, the Dock is the WRONG place for it.
I can see why some of you are against the idea. Windows implementation of tabs is soooooo stupid and having windows within widows is even more moronic. The addition of navigational tabs to apps is hardly the same as window's stupid UI.
[ 02-25-2003: Message edited by: PooPooDoctor ]</p>
<strong>
That's an excellent UI element that SHOULD be added TO ALL APPs! Yes, a way to see open windows/files from the app you are currently using. And it will someday be despite what you ant-tab people think, by the way you guys remind me of the DOS geeks back when the Mac was introduced going on about how a GUI is silly and how it slows you down, at any rate, the use of tabs to show open windows is the solution to a busy desktop, the Dock is the WRONG place for it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
One question: how would you drag and drop without it being a serious PITA not only among apps, but even within the same app? Tabs are windows within windows, and the windows are even harder to use together. Tabs are such an inherently insular and static UI element, they hurt anyone ability to do work with efficiency. Does everyone else really just do work in one window at a time? doesn't anyone use even two widows at a time? doesn't anyone have their apps communicate with one another? Tabs hurt drag-n-drop, aka, point-and-click operation quite a bit. I am fast with a Mac. That's because I can drag and drop at will, something much more cumbersome on any Windows computer. You can of course still use the pasteboard, but drag-n-drop is not only faster, it's simpler, more easily learned. Tabs make it harder to use a machine in a very essential way. I'm not willing to risk such a fundamental - possibly the only really intuitive - aspect of computer behavior. It's a foundation of the Mac OS. To comporomise drag-n-drop compromises a Mac advatage, makes using a mac much harder, especially for new users who will not be able to not only multitask but share info among documents.
I object to tabbed browsing not for the immediate loss or benefit to Safari or browsers, but for the long-term prospect that it threatens to make computer use more complicated, if perhaps a little neater. It really is a Pandora's box we're opening.
<strong>
Answer: Pop-up tabs.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, and FAR more difficult to learn and drag to. Drag and drop on open windows is that important. It's the most important part of the user experience.
<a href="http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/macosx/Essentials/AquaHIGuidelines/"; target="_blank">http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/macosx/Essentials/AquaHIGuidelines/</a>;
See and point, direct manipulation.
[ 02-25-2003: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]</p>
<strong>
Answer: Pop-up tabs.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's not a PITA? Do they spring back to the original open tab if you mouse off it or do they stick to the previously open tab? Is the necessary delay in the spring action going to save you time?
In the end we're defining new widgets and behaviors ...and promoting single window/pane operation.
::watches Eugene recoil in shocked horror::
When the surface of the world is a smoldering pile of ash because of all this, I'll be huddled in my dug-out cave mumbling "I told you so...I told you!!!"
[ 02-25-2003: Message edited by: Eugene ]</p>
I guess after evolution there's always a devolution. Just like dinosaurs came and went. Good GUIs will also have come and is starting to go.
In this day of large screens and fast computers and multitasking OSs people decide they'd rather go back to a 1-window interface to reduce clutter, CPU/memory usage and destroy all possible multitasking between apps.
Tabs might have been great on the 8MHz, 128k mem, 9" screen Mac 128k...but today? Good lord!
You're all a bunch of single-tasking morons.
[ 02-25-2003: Message edited by: kim kap sol ]</p>
<strong>
In this day of large screens and fast computers and multitasking OSs people decide they'd rather go back to a 1-window interface to reduce clutter, CPU/memory usage and destroy all possible multitasking between apps.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm sorry all of us don't have 23" Cinema Displays.
[quote]You're all a bunch of single-tasking morons.<hr></blockquote>
If anyone's a moron it's you.
[ 02-25-2003: Message edited by: EmAn ]</p>
Obstinate refusal to allow tabs as OPTIONS baffles me.