More UI stuff - the "close" widget

Posted:
in Mac Software edited January 2014
After iCal came out, I complained endlessly about the function of the "close" widget, and about how Apple was breaking UI consistency again.



The first version of iCal would quit when you hit the "close" widget because it was a single-window app. I hated that. Again, it was a Windows convention that had migrated to Mac OS needlessly. On Windows, it's a necessary consequence of not having the an independent menubar at the top of the screen, so when you close the last window, there's nothing left of the app at all.



In Mac OS, the menubar is there. When you close the last window in a multi-window capable app, the app doesn't quit. The same behavior should apply to a single-window app. Even if I close the window of an app like iCal, do I necessarily want the app to quit? No. The "Quit" and "Close" menu items are separate and should stay separate.



I just noticed today that iCal has reverted back to my preferred behavior. Now I remember people argued against me on this topic too. Do you still favor having single-window apps close when you hit the red widget? The only apps that I might accept with this behavior are apps that have completely vacant menus, and even then I lean toward UI consistency rather than 'convenience.'



And I'm still sad to see apps like iSync retaining the new behavior.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 71
    jlljll Posts: 2,709member
    [quote]Originally posted by Eugene:

    <strong>Again, it was a Windows convention that had migrated to Mac OS needlessly.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    It actually goes back to the very first versions of the Macintosh operating system.
  • Reply 2 of 71
    chychchych Posts: 860member
    All apps should behave the correct way, quit when you tell it to. If only RealOne player and WMP did, not correctly quitting makes those two players suck even more.
  • Reply 2 of 71
    since the address book stoped quitting on every window close - it became 10x more appreciated... and faster cause I don't have to relaunch the slow thing every time I want to make a call.... however, it has stopped working since then (crash on launch), but it was nice while it lasted.....
  • Reply 4 of 71
    eugeneeugene Posts: 8,254member
    [quote]Originally posted by JLL:

    <strong>



    It actually goes back to the very first versions of the Macintosh operating system.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Yes, a convention that WENT AWAY with the Multi-Finder. Don't go into this type of rhetoric. Do you really want to go back to the days of no Multi-Finder?
  • Reply 5 of 71
    This is one area of the UI that I certainly think needs to be standard. Did you notice that Address Book now stays open, too. But iSync, iPhoto, and iMovie don't. This is very annoying.



    I almost never actually quit a program because of the stability of OS X's memory, and it's faster to switch between open programs, rather than open - close - open - close etc...



    As Eugene mentioned, there are notable exceptions from Apple. I think that because Apple has done this it has given rise to a bad trend among developers. I downloaded Checkbook 1.1.1 from VersionTracker and noticed that it has this annoying behavior, too.



    Single-window apps can still be open, even without having a window open.
  • Reply 6 of 71
    jlljll Posts: 2,709member
    [quote]Originally posted by Eugene:

    <strong>



    Yes, a convention that WENT AWAY with the </strong><hr></blockquote>



    Several control panels even in Mac OS 9.2.2 quit when closed.



    Btw. you can just hide the app instead of closing the window - you just have to use the built-in features of the OS instead



    [ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: JLL ]</p>
  • Reply 7 of 71
    dogcowdogcow Posts: 713member
    Apps should close when they are told [Apple-Q or App Menu&gt;Quit] not when the last window is closed. I hate WMP because of this. I keep hitting the close button to get something out of the way then move to open a new file URL and the app quits when i close the window. EXTREMELY annoying. I don't mind it so much when I use windows because it works in that environment, but not on the mac.
  • Reply 8 of 71
    jlljll Posts: 2,709member
    [quote]Originally posted by Dogcow:

    <strong>Apps should close when they are told [Apple-Q or App Menu&gt;Quit] not when the last window is closed. I hate WMP because of this. I keep hitting the close button to get something out of the way then move to open a new file URL and the app quits when i close the window. EXTREMELY annoying. I don't mind it so much when I use windows because it works in that environment, but not on the mac.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Microsoft designed it wrong by making it a single window app in the first place.



    They should make it possible to have more than one media file open at a time.
  • Reply 9 of 71
    eugeneeugene Posts: 8,254member
    [quote]Originally posted by JLL:

    <strong>



    Several control panels even in Mac OS 9.2.2 quit when closed.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Control Panels that didn't have their own menubar 'quit' when you closed them. However, they didn't really quit since those control panels were INITs and are preloaded on start-up and only really quit when you shut-down.
  • Reply 10 of 71
    jlljll Posts: 2,709member
    [quote]Originally posted by Eugene:

    <strong>



    Control Panels that didn't have their own menubar 'quit' when you closed them. However, they didn't really quit since those control panels were INITs and are preloaded on start-up and only really quit when you shut-down.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    So what? To the user they are windows and should act like windows - just like you're saying that browser tabs are the same as regular tabs.
  • Reply 11 of 71
    eugeneeugene Posts: 8,254member
    [quote]Originally posted by JLL:

    <strong>



    So what? To the user they are windows and should act like windows - just like you're saying that browser tabs are the same as regular tabs.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Exactly, I said in my original post there are exceptions. I specifically mentioned apps that don't have any other presence than the window itself. Try again.



    [quote]The only apps that I might accept with this behavior are apps that have completely vacant menus, and even then I lean toward UI consistency rather than 'convenience.'<hr></blockquote>



    Since INITs aren't even apps, and don't even have their own menus, then of course the only solution is to have them disappear when the window is closed. ... Then again, INIT behavior was consistent since they still didn't quit after you closed the window in the first place.
  • Reply 12 of 71
    spartspart Posts: 2,060member
    Ah, Eugene, something we can agree on.



    It's inconsistent behavior, it's not how the Mac OS works, it should be punished.
  • Reply 13 of 71
    eugeneeugene Posts: 8,254member
    [quote]Originally posted by Spart:

    <strong>Ah, Eugene, something we can agree on.



    It's inconsistent behavior, it's not how the Mac OS works, it should be punished.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Ah, but what about declaring the Window menu a second class citizen?
  • Reply 14 of 71
    jlljll Posts: 2,709member
    Eugene, it's funny that you on one side argues against breaking guidelines (tabs) and on the other side argues for breaking guidelines (single window apps) - just because you don't like some of the guidelines.
  • Reply 15 of 71
    eugeneeugene Posts: 8,254member
    [quote]Originally posted by JLL:

    <strong>Eugene, it's funny that you on one side argues against breaking guidelines (tabs) and on the other side argues for breaking guidelines (single window apps) - just because you don't like some of the guidelines.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Don't be a retard. Where have a I broken guidelines? Not only is an INIT not an application, it's also non-existent in OS X. As for guidelines, every true application should have at the very least an "Application" menu with a "Quit" option...even full-screen games. You should be able to toggle the menu to be visible.



    I have upheld the guidelines in every respect.



    Quit arguing for argument's sake and read my replies before making stuff up.
  • Reply 16 of 71
    jlljll Posts: 2,709member
    [quote]Originally posted by Eugene:

    <strong>As for guidelines, every true application should have at the very least an "Application" menu with a "Quit" option...even full-screen games. You should be able to toggle the menu to be visible.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    It's recommended by Apple that single window applications quit when the window is closed - I'm not talking about INITs.
  • Reply 17 of 71
    overhopeoverhope Posts: 1,123member
    It does make sense, insofar as having to open a window before you do anything else is completely alien on the Mac: there should be some onscreen indication that the app is active other than the Menu bar.



    Admittedly, I tend to just hide everything I'm not using (the joys of having far too much RAM, and having dimmed icons in the Dock), so it's not something I encounter on a regular basis.
  • Reply 18 of 71
    eugeneeugene Posts: 8,254member
    [quote]Originally posted by JLL:

    <strong>



    It's recommended by Apple that single window applications quit when the window is closed - I'm not talking about INITs.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    It was recommended by Apple, but if you look around, neither iCal nor Address Book behave this way anymore. Apple is falling back on the old, better way of doing things. Apple made a mistake, they are correcting that mistake.



    Why do you think Apple changed its mind?



    Quite clearly Apple makes mistakes. They've started to fix one mistake. I only hope they don't implement another.



    [ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: Eugene ]</p>
  • Reply 19 of 71
    buonrottobuonrotto Posts: 6,368member
    I understand Apple's logic that single-window apps -- the ones that basically need an open window to do anything (iTunes, iPhoto, etc.) could or maybe should quit when you close its window. However, the window should therefore have a "quit" widget that, while related, isn't confused with a close widget. If Apple doesn't want to do that, then they probably should not have apps quit when you close their last window.



    [ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]</p>
  • Reply 20 of 71
    No apps should quit when the last window is closed because most don't. The rest shouldn't for the sake of consistency.



    Just placing my vote.
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