College Courses and AP Credit

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  • Reply 61 of 69
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    I do work in the school system here in NYC, though not as a paid position. I work on the technical and computer plans, and do work in my daughters school, which is a "special" HS within the system. Doing that, I sit on several committees, one of which is called the School Leadership Team (SLT).



    SLT: School Lipservice Team.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    One thing we do, is work with our college admissions office. In the slightly over two years I've been at this HS, I've spoken with a fair number of admissions personnel from various universities. We've also discussed this in our meetings.



    As I've been saying, these personnel have been stating that they do not consider AP courses, even with good grades in the tests, to be more than an indicator of what the student is capable of. A few will consider giving credit for a specific course if they feel that their own course offers no more than the AP course. But, many don't.



    As a matter of policy, many do. That's what he was saying. Accepting AP credits isn't at the discretion of an admissions officer, it's at the policy of a university. Whether it's a good or bad policy is another issue. As for admissions officers, I agree that naturally their interest in APs would be as an indicator of what the student is capable of. That's the prism through which they see the world. It's their job: everything as an indicator of what the student is capable of.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    The schools, particularly the better ones, are very jealous of their own admissions policies and requirements. Many are concerned that allowing a HS course, even if it is an AP course of known superior quality, will damage their own reputations.



    I don't think this is correct. I don't know of any college that is worried that a high school class will effect its own reputation, or how that's even possible. College reputations are not based on classes taken by students prior to matriculation.



    An interesting article the other day pointed out genuine jealousy that exists between the lower-level college teachers and the high school AP teachers in that the college teachers fear for their jobs if students bypass their courses.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    As far as the tests are concerned. We've also been told by a number of admissions officers, that they have a concern that those grades are not up to what they would expect their own students to achieve.



    Again, we're being told that a fair number of AP students are not doing as well in a subject as those who take the course in the university itself.



    I don't follow. Are you saying that AP students who skip out of introductory-level college classes do not do as well in those subjects over time compared to students who do not skip out of introductory-level college classes? (which, if that's what you're saying, makes sense given the uneven quality of AP classes, although obviously not universally true).



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    One reason for this is apparently that they feel the teaching styles between the HS and the college level are too different. This affects the student taking more advanced courses with this more sparse teaching style, without getting used to being more on their own in a more preparatory course.



    Another reason given, is that it is felt that the student is more reliant on the parents at the HS level, and so the AP course doesn't reflect the activity the student would actually be having at their institution. This is particularly true for those who will have their students dorm, rather than live at home.



    There is more, but just how much you want to read, I don't know. But, this should give a good idea of what I'm saying.



    Are you saying that AP courses are a crock? If so, some may be, but some are superior to the equivalent course at some universities. In general, I don't think you can generalize. But I wouldn't be surprised if many high schools were increasing AP classes to remain competitive, but at questionable quality. I also wouldn't be surprised if many high schools were increasing AP classes just to offer more intensive high quality classes.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    As far as the discussion over Community Colleges go, it's how you want to look at it. I think that we agree more than we disagree, but are having semantic issues that are keeping us apart.



    I don't see this as semantic. You said they exist for low grades and unambitious careers. In fact, they exist for many other reasons as well. Financial hardship, for example, would be another reason. And there are oodles of other reasons as well.
  • Reply 62 of 69
    vineavinea Posts: 5,585member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    You are not too bright, are you?



    Since you're only goal in life seems to be bothering me, you obviously have little else to do.



    Were you fired?



    Eh? I've responded twice to you the whole week.



    What you just wrote says that to optimize the chance that your child gets into a top uni means going not to the top High School because they wont take more than the top X students from any school and not attending AP classes so as to not risk a B vs an A in an easier version of that class since universities count a A in an easy class as the same as an A in a AP class with respect to GPA.



    If you still want to take AP exams without taking AP courses you might still be able to in order to show higher levels of understanding. Homeschooled kids can do so. Note that Harvard accepts AP credit for scores of 5. As does Yale and Princeton.



    Here is Princeton's AP scale:



    http://www.princeton.edu/pr/pub/ap/table.htm



    The top three schools in the US evidently disagrees with your interpretation of the percieved value of AP testing scores.



    A good PSAT score is often as useful if not more as a good SAT score if it makes you a National Merit Scholar.



    Heck, I'm not even disagreeing with you and you get bent out of shape. Since when are we allowed to call each other names and make direct attacks anyway? If so I have some rather choice ones for you.



    Vinea
  • Reply 63 of 69
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,803member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vinea View Post


    Eh? I've responded twice to you the whole week.



    What you just wrote says that to optimize the chance that your child gets into a top uni means going not to the top High School because they wont take more than the top X students from any school and not attending AP classes so as to not risk a B vs an A in an easier version of that class since universities count a A in an easy class as the same as an A in a AP class with respect to GPA.



    If you still want to take AP exams without taking AP courses you might still be able to in order to show higher levels of understanding. Homeschooled kids can do so. Note that Harvard accepts AP credit for scores of 5. As does Yale and Princeton.



    Here is Princeton's AP scale:



    http://www.princeton.edu/pr/pub/ap/table.htm



    The top three schools in the US evidently disagrees with your interpretation of the percieved value of AP testing scores.



    A good PSAT score is often as useful if not more as a good SAT score if it makes you a National Merit Scholar.



    Heck, I'm not even disagreeing with you and you get bent out of shape. Since when are we allowed to call each other names and make direct attacks anyway? If so I have some rather choice ones for you.



    Vinea



    Since you've attacked me so many times before, it's hard to know just what you will say. You've called me four letter words and other not worth mentioning phrases many times, as you well know.



    You're assumption that I won't do the best is always something you try to put forth. You did that again in your last post here.



    If you READ that Princeton advisory, you will see that only some courses are accepted, and many times, even for those, full credit isn't allowed.



    I haven't said that NO school is accepting ANY AP courses for credit, ot substitution.



    What I did say, several times, is that fewer schools each year are accepting all of the credits, or allowing substitution.



    That is true.



    Calling a course college level is one thing, but that doesn't mean that is is necessarily a college course in all, or even any institutions.



    Princeton shows that well, as many AP courses have no Princeton equivalent. Therefore, they can't be substituted for.
  • Reply 64 of 69
    It is interesting that as we discuss and debate the top schools in the country, we do so while using language that is not necessarily AP level and we also do so while ignoring the topic of the thread. I believe that the lively debate found here (regardless of how pointless I think it is) could benefit from a title better than "Apple unveils new line of 20- and 24 inch iMacs", but not quite as much as a thread of that title could benefit from a discussion of iMacs.



    I dunno, but I don't see the relationship between new iMacs, AP classes and Ivy League schools. iMacs are fantastic, AP classes can be good and bad, and the Ivy league is not all it is claimed to be. It doesn't take an AP class or an expensive education to notice that we are way, way off topic here.



    Can we either get back on topic or close the thread? It is officially derailed.
  • Reply 65 of 69
    vineavinea Posts: 5,585member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    Since you've attacked me so many times before, it's hard to know just what you will say. You've called me four letter words and other not worth mentioning phrases many times, as you well know.



    A quote rather than a baseless accusation would be nice. If I called you a four letter word you should report it. But since I haven't your accusation is simply another personal attack.



    Quote:

    You're assumption that I won't do the best is always something you try to put forth. You did that again in your last post here.



    This sentence makes zero sense. I'm guessing that once again you are attempting to take me to task for actually criticizing what you actually write rather than what you would like us to think you wrote.



    Quote:

    If you READ that Princeton advisory, you will see that only some courses are accepted, and many times, even for those, full credit isn't allowed.



    I haven't said that NO school is accepting ANY AP courses for credit, ot substitution.



    What you WROTE was:



    Quote:

    A few will consider giving credit for a specific course if they feel that their own course offers no more than the AP course. But, many don't.



    One would think that if there was a significant trend against AP credit were only few "consider" giving credit and "many" do not then one of the top three most prestigious schools would simply not allow it at all as well. However, given that the top 3 schools in the US DO accept AP credit the burden of proof is on you to show that major universities have a policy of not accepting AP testing as valid representation of understanding in a subject area.



    There is NO indication here that what high school you come from (ie how good their AP program is reputed to be) is a determinant whether or not AP credit is given but that the TEST score is the threshold for consideration.



    Quote:

    What I did say, several times, is that fewer schools each year are accepting all of the credits, or allowing substitution.



    That is true.



    That is an unsupported assertion. A more reasonable unsupported assertion than "most" do not and only a "few" do. One that if had written THAT way likely would have garnered no comment.



    Quote:

    Calling a course college level is one thing, but that doesn't mean that is is necessarily a college course in all, or even any institutions.



    Princeton shows that well, as many AP courses have no Princeton equivalent. Therefore, they can't be substituted for.



    Yes, not all AP exams will have equivalents in all universities. So? HYP still accepts AP testing as a valid and important metric of student proficiency that they allow students to skip freshman and sophmore (100 and 200 level) courses with a sufficient score.



    And these are HARD subjects like Chemisty, Physics, Calculus.



    What a high school wants to call a course is immaterial. What is relevant is the test score.



    In any case...you sidestepped the whole issue of if you believe what you wrote then the logical conclusion is that since AP classes are not considered very positively by admissions anyway and since you risk a lower grade from a harder course then in general you should advise folks, including your daughter, not to take them.



    I'm not kidding when I wrote that my intended strategy is to seek the 3rd best HS in my district over the top 2. Getting your kids into HYP sets them up as well as you can for the rest of their lives.
  • Reply 66 of 69
    vineavinea Posts: 5,585member
    Looks like your wish came true
  • Reply 67 of 69
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    Do you have a child in HS now?



    Oh, come on. That's even pointless for a rhetorical question.



    Quote:

    As I've been saying, these personnel have been stating that they do not consider AP courses, even with good grades in the tests, to be more than an indicator of what the student is capable of. A few will consider giving credit for a specific course if they feel that their own course offers no more than the AP course. But, many don't.



    It is taken on a school-by-school basis. Many HSs offer 'AP' classes, and by diluting the term 'AP' to where it can be any old course with a fancy title. If a school sees where the AP class was taken, they can usually make a guesstimate of how prepared the student is based on previous students coming from that same program with similar grades. This will work mostly with 'good' or big high schools like mine.



    Quote:

    The schools, particularly the better ones, are very jealous of their own admissions policies and requirements. Many are concerned that allowing a HS course, even if it is an AP course of known superior quality, will damage their own reputations.



    Say what you will about that, but this is a problem for those hoping to not have to take that course at the university level.



    If they would accept the course from a Comm. Coll, then they would accept my credits, but otherwise, they are being fairly pretentious, greedy, and annoying, IMO, by making one take the same class twice to get 1 credit. There is an exception for top-notch schools, but that is because their introductory class in that subject is not equivalent to an AP class (or what an AP class is supposed to be), unlike at a State university, where their into class usually is equivalent.



    Quote:

    As far as the HS average goes, AP courses have, in most schools, been given a rating of 110%. So that if one achieved a 90% in AP, they would receive a 99% as a grade, which would then be averaged in as any other grade, thus bringing the overall point average up. Again, many, if not most schools, are now disallowing that as well. They strip the 10% off, and average the remainder back into the average.



    Ok, idk how universal this is, but in the Des Moines area, AP courses are a 5 on a 4 point scale (A=5, B=4, C=3, D=2, F=0). When they strip off that extra 10% in your example, there will be little initiative for kids to take challenging courses, so the school will get a bad reputation for being a weak school, and if there is a choice, most of the better students will go elsewhere to get a quality education, which will renew the viscous cycle as the school loses funding, deteriorates, and then may eventually close.



    Quote:

    As far as the tests are concerned. We've also been told by a number of admissions officers, that they have a concern that those grades are not up to what they would expect their own students to achieve.



    Again, we're being told that a fair number of AP students are not doing as well in a subject as those who take the course in the university itself.



    One reason for this is apparently that they feel the teaching styles between the HS and the college level are too different. This affects the student taking more advanced courses with this more sparse teaching style, without getting used to being more on their own in a more preparatory course.



    A good AP course will go halfway and be helpful, but not let the student use the teacher as a crutch for learning. Some instruction, but a lot of independent learning too. It is way better than a student coming out of easy HS classes and being thrown into classes with harsh schedules and no transition.



    Quote:

    Another reason given, is that it is felt that the student is more reliant on the parents at the HS level, and so the AP course doesn't reflect the activity the student would actually be having at their institution. This is particularly true for those who will have their students dorm, rather than live at home.



    I don't understand this. At home, the student would be in an easier schedule (most likely), so they would have more time to study and learn the course. This would make them more knowledgeable and better prepared, right?



    Quote:

    But, I'm going through these issues now, so I see them right in front of me.



    Because I'm not...?



    Quote:

    As far as the discussion over Community Colleges go, it's how you want to look at it. I think that we agree more than we disagree, but are having semantic issues that are keeping us apart.



    Wrong. "You said they exist for low grades and unambitious careers. In fact, they exist for many other reasons as well. Financial hardship, for example, would be another reason. And there are oodles of other reasons as well." - duddits





    Again, most colleges will allow the credits to students from a school with a reputable AP program, or at least allow them to try and test out of it. And my data, like yours, is almost entirely anecdotal and regional, and may or may not be accurately extrapolated into a general statement.



    Quote:

    Look, if we will continue to disagree, then there will be no point.



    Fair enough. I'm done.
  • Reply 68 of 69
    I'll put in one last scrape, lest anyone doubt the topic has been belabored to death.



    At my college, I would say that most students enter with AP credits in most subjects, and the credits are used primarily for placement. Freshman classes and special programs are offered at various levels, and AP credits in a subject don't neccessarily place you out of something as much as into something.



    While AP credits from high schools that offer them are all but a requirement for admission, the system erases their formal effect after a semester or two. Students who want to be part of accellerated programs, double majors, or nonexistent social lives, are able to do that. And students who are happy to spend 4 relatively normal years in college are also able to do that.



    Perhaps there might be an air of competition freshman year in terms of who gets into what level of what class, but by sophmore year, no one cares. In the end, everyone has more than enough opportunity to flourish or flounder.
  • Reply 69 of 69
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,803member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bobmarksdale View Post


    Oh, come on. That's even pointless for a rhetorical question.



    It was just out of curiosity. Don't get upset.



    Quote:

    It is taken on a school-by-school basis. Many HSs offer 'AP' classes, and by diluting the term 'AP' to where it can be any old course with a fancy title. If a school sees where the AP class was taken, they can usually make a guesstimate of how prepared the student is based on previous students coming from that same program with similar grades. This will work mostly with 'good' or big high schools like mine.



    This is what I said.



    Quote:

    If they would accept the course from a Comm. Coll, then they would accept my credits, but otherwise, they are being fairly pretentious, greedy, and annoying, IMO, by making one take the same class twice to get 1 credit. There is an exception for top-notch schools, but that is because their introductory class in that subject is not equivalent to an AP class (or what an AP class is supposed to be), unlike at a State university, where their into class usually is equivalent.



    I partly agree. Going state to state, and school to school, acceptance is spotty. There is no universal agreement on this. I doubt if greed is much of a factor, though there might be some.



    Quote:

    Ok, idk how universal this is, but in the Des Moines area, AP courses are a 5 on a 4 point scale (A=5, B=4, C=3, D=2, F=0). When they strip off that extra 10% in your example, there will be little initiative for kids to take challenging courses, so the school will get a bad reputation for being a weak school, and if there is a choice, most of the better students will go elsewhere to get a quality education, which will renew the viscous cycle as the school loses funding, deteriorates, and then may eventually close.



    The scoring is the same all over, as far as I know. Colleges seem to be unsure how much more difficult an AP course is, relative to an honors course in the same school. Often, honors courses are given because there is no equivalent AP course. Therefore, how does one rate an honors course, which could also be much harder than the standard course? One way is to de-rate the AP course in the average.



    Otherwise,, one would have to up-rate the honors course, which would also lessen the affect of the AP course on the average.



    We've been told by several recruiters that they consider AP courses in many schoolss to be about the same as the honors courses, though there are no countrywide tests. They rely on what they know of the school, as all better colleges keep records on that.



    Quote:

    A good AP course will go halfway and be helpful, but not let the student use the teacher as a crutch for learning. Some instruction, but a lot of independent learning too. It is way better than a student coming out of easy HS classes and being thrown into classes with harsh schedules and no transition.



    Yes, but the honors programs in my daughters school is handled the same as the AP program.



    Quote:

    I don't understand this. At home, the student would be in an easier schedule (most likely), so they would have more time to study and learn the course. This would make them more knowledgeable and better prepared, right?



    That's not the point as I understand it. In fact, that's the opposite to what they are concerned about. They are concerned about the large number of students that dorm away from home, and therefore have no parental support in the areas that would affect their performance. This is often in the mundane areas such as having their clothes washed, meals prepared, given curfews, etc. Often, it's found, having suddenly to do this on their own is upsetting enough that settlement into the routine of study takes a term or two. Apparently, they believe that taking these courses from the beginning gives the student more time to settle in before beginning with something more complex. It's just another part of the overall explanation given.



    Quote:

    Because I'm not...?



    I really don't know what you are, or are not, in regard to these issues. I'm familiar with them because I have a daughter in HS now. What more can I say about that? It's simply my way of giving you disclosure as to why I do have knowledge about it.



    Quote:

    Wrong. "You said they exist for low grades and unambitious careers. In fact, they exist for many other reasons as well. Financial hardship, for example, would be another reason. And there are oodles of other reasons as well." - duddits



    The many other reasons are mostly adult education, though many 4 year schools provide that as well.



    Quote:

    Again, most colleges will allow the credits to students from a school with a reputable AP program, or at least allow them to try and test out of it. And my data, like yours, is almost entirely anecdotal and regional, and may or may not be accurately extrapolated into a general statement.



    I agree. I never said that that wasn't true. What I'm saying is that, from what I'm learning about this, fewer schools are accepting them, though more are allowing (requiring) testing to get out of taking a course they have taken in AP.



    [quote

    Fair enough. I'm done.[/QUOTE]



    Again, agreed!
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