I dunno... the SanDisk Sansa flash players are actually pretty decent.
MS could end up #3 in that space actually, even with all the ad money they have to throw around.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe
SO.. Why don't you give SanDisk some free advertising when THEY release new product?
I'm vaguely interested in reading about the zune on this board, after getting fed up with the crap and "placement quotes" from some very obvious m$ shills on engadget, but seriously If the Zune is such a threat, but ACTUALLY behind SanDisk, why don't you give posts when SanDisk ship new product?
Actually I know of more people who use their SonyEricsson mobile phone as their main multimedia (mp3/aac/mp4) player. In fact I've never knowingly seen a SanDisk in the wild and living in the UK I've never seen a Zune.
Especially given that SonyEricsson phones play very nicely with OS X's AddressBook, iSync, iCal and can act as a Bluetooth Remote Control for Macs not to the fact mention that using Dreamsicle they can work with iTunes' playlists; news about SonyEricsson is much more relevant to both the iPhone, iPod and Mac platforms.
I love having two batteries for my iPhone beater and the choice of swapping MS Duos at will.
The X-box division has lost $6 billion so far on hardware and software combined.
Exactly - by any normal standard of business, the X-box has been an enormous failure
- gaining market share by taking a massive-loss it not normal business
- and there are laws against it - it's called 'dumping'
MS has a long history of failure in every market it has entered - except the OS & Office markets - and these divisions, thanks to their monopoly positions have been responsible for propping up all of MS's other failures.
But don't be fooled into thinking that it doesn't matter for the consumer if MS looses $Billions in order to gain market share, and kill off competition
- in any market MS has succeeded in killing off the competition, they've used to lack of competition to drive-up prices and kill-off innovation.
- so in the long run we all loose when MS does this kind of thing
- which is why the Zune is soo bad for anyone who is interested in innovation
- and with the Zune MS is trying exactly the same tactics it has used on gain Market share with the Xbox
- i.e. sell at a loss, and keep doing it until there is no more competition
- so when comparing iPods & Zunes, remember that Apple has to make a profit on each one, whereas, MS will try to pack them with expensive features, and sell them at a loss.
- it will be interesting to see if & when the Zunes are launched in Europe, what the EU reaction is to MS's anti-competitive practices....
I was just commenting to someone about how it appears that MS traded the turd-brown Zune for a duck **** green Zune when this arrived in my email box with the message: "I thought i'd brighten your day on this funny Zune parody, incidentally I didn't have to alter the green at all, both the Zune and Linda's vomit are exactly the same color."
Exactly - by any normal standard of business, the X-box has been an enormous failure
- gaining market share by taking a massive-loss it not normal business
- and there are laws against it - it's called 'dumping'
So far, no one's been nailed for selling a product below its cost it in a long time. The razor blade makers do it with "free" razor handles, printer makers do it, and other console makers have done it too.
"The songs you download on your Zune Pass are yours for as long as you hold your Zune Pass subscription."
This is RENTING not buying. Stupid.
Nobody said it was a purchase system. Most subscription music services are generally a kind of membership system. A lot of the services let you choose if you want to buy or subscribe. I think both make sense, you buy the tracks that you like, but subscribe from time to time to sample what else is out there - sample the whole track and not just a tiny segment.
Poor example? Its pretty well known that console gaming is all about selling games even if that mean taking a lose on the hardware. If its not a failure for the customer then who cares? We are the customer. If MS can continue to produce better products and we benifit thats the only thing that matters. I know that might sound too logical. I don't believe we have to worry about MS losing money its all about what they take in as a company, this is simple business, its about bottom line one division will pick up the slack for others divisions not doing as well. Same hold true for Apple unlike MS they have to make 50% on their hardware seeing only 6% of computer market owns it.
So tell me how much money MS has made in games as compared to dumping the XBox?
Sure, we don't have to worry about MS losing money, but the shareholders do. And asinine ventures like this are not good business practices. The track record of their stock has shown where these whims are taking them.
Is MS really producing this product? It was based on a Toshiba product; MS just threw money at it and hoped that would make a competitive, better product. In a very few respects, maybe there are some things better about (though I can't think of one), but there are other MP3 makers that do not have monopolistic tendencies regarding how I manage my music that I would sooner purchase more feature-filled better product from. There is really nothing new in this product that allows it to stand out from all the other MP3 players out there other than the Zune store.
So far, no one's been nailed for selling a product below its cost it in a long time. The razor blade makers do it with "free" razor handles, printer makers do it, and other console makers have done it too.
You've got a computer, right?
You've heard of google, right?
Try typing in "anti-dumping eu" and then ask yourself "why is there no Zune in the EU?"
But, the important thing about all your examples is that 'in the round' looking at the whole, a profit is made - i.e. razor-blade manufactures make the profit on the Razor blades, Printer makers make the profit on the Ink, console makers make the profit on the Software
- except in MS's case, they make a massive loss on (h/w + s/w)
- and no other company would be insane enough to support the losses they are making
- basically the h/w + s/w model has failed for them
- and their only hope is to keep taking the loss long enough to drive out the competition, at when point they can raise their prices and try to claw back these massive losses.
I would say that the h/w + s/w model has allows MS to hide what they are actually doing
- because they can say 'hey, we may be making a loss now, but we will make a profit *this* time on the software'
- and when that doesn't happen they can bring out a new Generation, and say *this* time it will be different, *this* time we will make a profit on the software, and so on...
The X-box division has lost $6 billion so far on hardware and software combined.
Well lets assume that number is correct isn't it interesting that they can just keep moving along. I believe as of July 2007 the number was really closer to 2 billion.
So tell me how much money MS has made in games as compared to dumping the XBox?
Sure, we don't have to worry about MS losing money, but the shareholders do. And asinine ventures like this are not good business practices. The track record of their stock has shown where these whims are taking them.
Is MS really producing this product? It was based on a Toshiba product; MS just threw money at it and hoped that would make a competitive, better product. In a very few respects, maybe there are some things better about (though I can't think of one), but there are other MP3 makers that do not have monopolistic tendencies regarding how I manage my music that I would sooner purchase more feature-filled better product from. There is really nothing new in this product that allows it to stand out from all the other MP3 players out there other than the Zune store.
And I can't see how bizarre DRM is better.
All of these products have pretty much reached the limits of what they can do. I mean really what more can you do with an iPod at this point before it's not longer and iPod? The whole idea behind the iPod was it was simple easy to use now its pretty much turning into a version of the iPhone.
Will the Zune ever really take off, whos knows but it appears MS is in things for the long run. People talk about them losing billions in console gaming but at the same time they have killed off the competition so at some point logic tells us they are going to be the only one standing.
Well lets put it this way. By now everyone on this forum would have though the Zune would have failed and been pulled over the market. The fact is its making progress which is exactly what I expected.
No, I think everyone pretty much expected Microsoft to continue to throw money into the Zune hole, to not much effect. Which is exactly what has happened.
If you want to define 'progress' as being at the one year mark of MS's (rather futile) effort, and now making flash Zunes that few will buy instead of just hard-drive Zunes that few will buy, well booyah then.
Quote:
MS doesn't enter a market and in the hopes of grabbing first place the first year, a perfect example is look at the gaming console market six years ago and look at it now, its quite different.
LOL, yes, its far different. Instead of having its console marketshare far eclipsed by Sony, now it's having its console marketshare far eclipsed by Nintendo. They traded Japanese companies to lose to.
Consoles really aren't a great thing for MS to boast about. For one thing, they've lost billions in their console efforts, and have yet to recoup it. For another, ppl don't seem to realize that the US is the only major market where the Xbox/360 has done at all well. Over in Europe, it is significantly less popular, and in Japan you almost can't give them away. None of that seems likely to go away any time soon.
MS really has very few true 'wins' outside of its Windows and Office monopolies. They consistently make mediocre 'me too' copycat products, and if they can't leverage Windows, they usually can't win. There's just not much innovation or cutting-edge design going on up in Redmond, it doesn't seem to be in their corporate DNA anymore, if ever it was. \
Well lets assume that number is correct isn't it interesting that they can just keep moving along. I believe as of July 2007 the number was really closer to 2 billion.
Nope, that was their loss in the first half of 2007, not their loss since inception of the Xbox
version 1.
This was from before they posted a $2 billion loss IN ONE QUARTER for the game division,
which included $1 billion to fix the red ring of death:
$4 + $2 = $6 billion. Actually, I think that they lost quite a bit more than that, because I am only
counting the losses on the first xbox + the single quarter loss.
"At stake is more than bragging rights. Microsoft has pledged to turn a profit in the Xbox division in the year that began in July, following $7 billion in losses since the first Xbox was sold in 2001."
Will the Zune ever really take off, whos knows but it appears MS is in things for the long run. People talk about them losing billions in console gaming but at the same time they have killed off the competition so at some point logic tells us they are going to be the only one standing.
Microsoft has killed off no one in console gaming. Sony shot itself in the face, and got replaced by Nintendo. MS is still stuck at low marketshare worldwide. Pls to stop drinking the Redmondade.
Well lets assume that number is correct isn't it interesting that they can just keep moving along. I believe as of July 2007 the number was really closer to 2 billion.
How is that "interesting"? It just means MS has enough money to throw at markets that they don't seem to compete very well in (by compete I mean "be profitable"). And to do so for a long time.
So MS will keep the Zune afloat for a long time, even if it means losing money on every unit sold. I don't know anyone who expected otherwise.
That's not really the same as competing. Competing, in the MP3 market, means you build compelling products that give people a clear reason to choose them over the entrenched incumbent. You have to do better than "OK" or "pretty much the same at the price point", because an entrenched incumbent has too much market inertia for customers to just wander off without strong motivation.
Slightly larger screens, odd colors and WiFi syncing (and what's that going to do to the battery life of a flash sized player?) aren't enough. WiFi syncing, in particular, really strikes me like one of those typical MS bullet-point features, that sounds a lot better on paper than it actually is. And, anyway, if "more features" were the magic ingredient that won over iPod users, the market would have long since made that clear. Obviously, that is not the case, and it's one of those things that the corporate culture at MS will never, ever understand.
Now, given time, I'm sure MS can find ways to improve the Zune line. But Apple's not standing still, and by the time that happens, Apple will have taken the iPod lineup somewhere else. For instance, it looks like the new Zune flash models compete pretty well, in terms of design, with the Mini of several generations ago. What do you think Apple will be making by the time MS makes something that competes head on with the second generation Nano?
If, as you say, the MP3 player paradigm is exhausted, with nothing of significance to be done, how does that improve MS's chances of grabbing market share? If true, all that means is that the market is heading toward being completely commodified, where price and price alone is the differentiator.
Apple knows how to stay ahead of that curve with striking design and its "whole widget" strategy. Does MS?
Comments
I just want to listen to my damn music for a long period of time, i dont want to share songs with the one person i have ever seen with a zune.
I dunno... the SanDisk Sansa flash players are actually pretty decent.
MS could end up #3 in that space actually, even with all the ad money they have to throw around.
SO.. Why don't you give SanDisk some free advertising when THEY release new product?
I'm vaguely interested in reading about the zune on this board, after getting fed up with the crap and "placement quotes" from some very obvious m$ shills on engadget, but seriously If the Zune is such a threat, but ACTUALLY behind SanDisk, why don't you give posts when SanDisk ship new product?
Actually I know of more people who use their SonyEricsson mobile phone as their main multimedia (mp3/aac/mp4) player. In fact I've never knowingly seen a SanDisk in the wild and living in the UK I've never seen a Zune.
Especially given that SonyEricsson phones play very nicely with OS X's AddressBook, iSync, iCal and can act as a Bluetooth Remote Control for Macs not to the fact mention that using Dreamsicle they can work with iTunes' playlists; news about SonyEricsson is much more relevant to both the iPhone, iPod and Mac platforms.
I love having two batteries for my iPhone beater and the choice of swapping MS Duos at will.
//time to stop gobbing off////
Poor example? Its pretty well known that console gaming is all about selling games even if that mean taking a lose on the hardware.
The X-box division has lost $6 billion so far on hardware and software combined.
The X-box division has lost $6 billion so far on hardware and software combined.
Exactly - by any normal standard of business, the X-box has been an enormous failure
- gaining market share by taking a massive-loss it not normal business
- and there are laws against it - it's called 'dumping'
MS has a long history of failure in every market it has entered - except the OS & Office markets - and these divisions, thanks to their monopoly positions have been responsible for propping up all of MS's other failures.
But don't be fooled into thinking that it doesn't matter for the consumer if MS looses $Billions in order to gain market share, and kill off competition
- in any market MS has succeeded in killing off the competition, they've used to lack of competition to drive-up prices and kill-off innovation.
- so in the long run we all loose when MS does this kind of thing
- which is why the Zune is soo bad for anyone who is interested in innovation
- and with the Zune MS is trying exactly the same tactics it has used on gain Market share with the Xbox
- i.e. sell at a loss, and keep doing it until there is no more competition
- so when comparing iPods & Zunes, remember that Apple has to make a profit on each one, whereas, MS will try to pack them with expensive features, and sell them at a loss.
- it will be interesting to see if & when the Zunes are launched in Europe, what the EU reaction is to MS's anti-competitive practices....
Exactly - by any normal standard of business, the X-box has been an enormous failure
- gaining market share by taking a massive-loss it not normal business
- and there are laws against it - it's called 'dumping'
So far, no one's been nailed for selling a product below its cost it in a long time. The razor blade makers do it with "free" razor handles, printer makers do it, and other console makers have done it too.
"The songs you download on your Zune Pass are yours for as long as you hold your Zune Pass subscription."
This is RENTING not buying. Stupid.
Nobody said it was a purchase system. Most subscription music services are generally a kind of membership system. A lot of the services let you choose if you want to buy or subscribe. I think both make sense, you buy the tracks that you like, but subscribe from time to time to sample what else is out there - sample the whole track and not just a tiny segment.
Poor example? Its pretty well known that console gaming is all about selling games even if that mean taking a lose on the hardware. If its not a failure for the customer then who cares? We are the customer. If MS can continue to produce better products and we benifit thats the only thing that matters. I know that might sound too logical. I don't believe we have to worry about MS losing money its all about what they take in as a company, this is simple business, its about bottom line one division will pick up the slack for others divisions not doing as well. Same hold true for Apple unlike MS they have to make 50% on their hardware seeing only 6% of computer market owns it.
So tell me how much money MS has made in games as compared to dumping the XBox?
Sure, we don't have to worry about MS losing money, but the shareholders do. And asinine ventures like this are not good business practices. The track record of their stock has shown where these whims are taking them.
Is MS really producing this product? It was based on a Toshiba product; MS just threw money at it and hoped that would make a competitive, better product. In a very few respects, maybe there are some things better about (though I can't think of one), but there are other MP3 makers that do not have monopolistic tendencies regarding how I manage my music that I would sooner purchase more feature-filled better product from. There is really nothing new in this product that allows it to stand out from all the other MP3 players out there other than the Zune store.
And I can't see how bizarre DRM is better.
So far, no one's been nailed for selling a product below its cost it in a long time. The razor blade makers do it with "free" razor handles, printer makers do it, and other console makers have done it too.
You've got a computer, right?
You've heard of google, right?
Try typing in "anti-dumping eu" and then ask yourself "why is there no Zune in the EU?"
But, the important thing about all your examples is that 'in the round' looking at the whole, a profit is made - i.e. razor-blade manufactures make the profit on the Razor blades, Printer makers make the profit on the Ink, console makers make the profit on the Software
- except in MS's case, they make a massive loss on (h/w + s/w)
- and no other company would be insane enough to support the losses they are making
- basically the h/w + s/w model has failed for them
- and their only hope is to keep taking the loss long enough to drive out the competition, at when point they can raise their prices and try to claw back these massive losses.
I would say that the h/w + s/w model has allows MS to hide what they are actually doing
- because they can say 'hey, we may be making a loss now, but we will make a profit *this* time on the software'
- and when that doesn't happen they can bring out a new Generation, and say *this* time it will be different, *this* time we will make a profit on the software, and so on...
Geddit yet?
does that image really say podcasts?
do they really?
oh, so... new low.
The X-box division has lost $6 billion so far on hardware and software combined.
Well lets assume that number is correct isn't it interesting that they can just keep moving along. I believe as of July 2007 the number was really closer to 2 billion.
So tell me how much money MS has made in games as compared to dumping the XBox?
Sure, we don't have to worry about MS losing money, but the shareholders do. And asinine ventures like this are not good business practices. The track record of their stock has shown where these whims are taking them.
Is MS really producing this product? It was based on a Toshiba product; MS just threw money at it and hoped that would make a competitive, better product. In a very few respects, maybe there are some things better about (though I can't think of one), but there are other MP3 makers that do not have monopolistic tendencies regarding how I manage my music that I would sooner purchase more feature-filled better product from. There is really nothing new in this product that allows it to stand out from all the other MP3 players out there other than the Zune store.
And I can't see how bizarre DRM is better.
All of these products have pretty much reached the limits of what they can do. I mean really what more can you do with an iPod at this point before it's not longer and iPod? The whole idea behind the iPod was it was simple easy to use now its pretty much turning into a version of the iPhone.
Will the Zune ever really take off, whos knows but it appears MS is in things for the long run. People talk about them losing billions in console gaming but at the same time they have killed off the competition so at some point logic tells us they are going to be the only one standing.
Continuing on its quest to make a dent in Apple's dominate share...
Why, why, WHY is this such a common mistake!? It's dominaNT share, not dominaTE share.
I don't make a big point of commenting on typos and grammar usually, but this particular mistake is all over the place... and must be stamped out!
Well lets put it this way. By now everyone on this forum would have though the Zune would have failed and been pulled over the market. The fact is its making progress which is exactly what I expected.
No, I think everyone pretty much expected Microsoft to continue to throw money into the Zune hole, to not much effect. Which is exactly what has happened.
If you want to define 'progress' as being at the one year mark of MS's (rather futile) effort, and now making flash Zunes that few will buy instead of just hard-drive Zunes that few will buy, well booyah then.
MS doesn't enter a market and in the hopes of grabbing first place the first year, a perfect example is look at the gaming console market six years ago and look at it now, its quite different.
LOL, yes, its far different. Instead of having its console marketshare far eclipsed by Sony, now it's having its console marketshare far eclipsed by Nintendo. They traded Japanese companies to lose to.
Consoles really aren't a great thing for MS to boast about. For one thing, they've lost billions in their console efforts, and have yet to recoup it. For another, ppl don't seem to realize that the US is the only major market where the Xbox/360 has done at all well. Over in Europe, it is significantly less popular, and in Japan you almost can't give them away. None of that seems likely to go away any time soon.
MS really has very few true 'wins' outside of its Windows and Office monopolies. They consistently make mediocre 'me too' copycat products, and if they can't leverage Windows, they usually can't win. There's just not much innovation or cutting-edge design going on up in Redmond, it doesn't seem to be in their corporate DNA anymore, if ever it was.
.
Well lets assume that number is correct isn't it interesting that they can just keep moving along. I believe as of July 2007 the number was really closer to 2 billion.
Nope, that was their loss in the first half of 2007, not their loss since inception of the Xbox
version 1.
This was from before they posted a $2 billion loss IN ONE QUARTER for the game division,
which included $1 billion to fix the red ring of death:
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Microsof..._Xbox_division
$4 + $2 = $6 billion. Actually, I think that they lost quite a bit more than that, because I am only
counting the losses on the first xbox + the single quarter loss.
"At stake is more than bragging rights. Microsoft has pledged to turn a profit in the Xbox division in the year that began in July, following $7 billion in losses since the first Xbox was sold in 2001."
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=ah.zkXSTEhuo
umm..
does that image really say podcasts?
do they really?
oh, so... new low.
That developers, marketing people & everybody else at MS must gag when they have to put p-p-p-p-podcast capability in their products!!
Love it!!
McD
Will the Zune ever really take off, whos knows but it appears MS is in things for the long run. People talk about them losing billions in console gaming but at the same time they have killed off the competition so at some point logic tells us they are going to be the only one standing.
Microsoft has killed off no one in console gaming. Sony shot itself in the face, and got replaced by Nintendo. MS is still stuck at low marketshare worldwide. Pls to stop drinking the Redmondade.
.
surprisingly large number of people sucking microsoft's dick in this thread, interesting.
Apparently buying a Zune also leaves a nasty taste in one's mouth
McD
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...mac_games.html
.
Well lets assume that number is correct isn't it interesting that they can just keep moving along. I believe as of July 2007 the number was really closer to 2 billion.
How is that "interesting"? It just means MS has enough money to throw at markets that they don't seem to compete very well in (by compete I mean "be profitable"). And to do so for a long time.
So MS will keep the Zune afloat for a long time, even if it means losing money on every unit sold. I don't know anyone who expected otherwise.
That's not really the same as competing. Competing, in the MP3 market, means you build compelling products that give people a clear reason to choose them over the entrenched incumbent. You have to do better than "OK" or "pretty much the same at the price point", because an entrenched incumbent has too much market inertia for customers to just wander off without strong motivation.
Slightly larger screens, odd colors and WiFi syncing (and what's that going to do to the battery life of a flash sized player?) aren't enough. WiFi syncing, in particular, really strikes me like one of those typical MS bullet-point features, that sounds a lot better on paper than it actually is. And, anyway, if "more features" were the magic ingredient that won over iPod users, the market would have long since made that clear. Obviously, that is not the case, and it's one of those things that the corporate culture at MS will never, ever understand.
Now, given time, I'm sure MS can find ways to improve the Zune line. But Apple's not standing still, and by the time that happens, Apple will have taken the iPod lineup somewhere else. For instance, it looks like the new Zune flash models compete pretty well, in terms of design, with the Mini of several generations ago. What do you think Apple will be making by the time MS makes something that competes head on with the second generation Nano?
If, as you say, the MP3 player paradigm is exhausted, with nothing of significance to be done, how does that improve MS's chances of grabbing market share? If true, all that means is that the market is heading toward being completely commodified, where price and price alone is the differentiator.
Apple knows how to stay ahead of that curve with striking design and its "whole widget" strategy. Does MS?