I'm tired of editing my video in Final Cut on my big bulky MacBook Pro!
Apple GIVE us 3-party apps on iPhone NOW!
Years ago when I bought my Palm, I was overjoyed with the ability to add 3rd party apps.
...
1.5 years later, I threw it into the trash after it became so riddled with bugs and system crashes from all the crap developer code out there. Literally threw the phone into the trash, it was a POS.
I'd rather wait to have Apple develop more apps properly.
My thinking is that Apple will want to wait until there is 16 or even 32 gigs available for 3rd party apps to happen.
Huh?
The 8GB of RAM in the iPhone is for storage not main ram. I don't know how much it's actually got as main ram but I'd guess no more than 256MB.
Most smart phones have 32 to 128MB of RAM, not GBs. One of the complaints I had with the SE P990i was that it only had 21MB free for Applications. They fixed that in the P1i, adding more RAM.
The whole of the iPhone OS, including all it's applications is a couple of hundred MB at most. The apps are tiny. We're not talking about running Final Cut on an iPhone, just simple apps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alienzed
You can't possibly be a developer, because any real developer with common sense knows that the future of computing, most of which is already here, is NOT run on your local computer. Why in God's name would you want to run an app ON your iPhone, lose valuable offline memory (8gbs isn't much buddy) and worry about tiny little processing power when ANYTHING you can do in a real world app can be done over the web, using a web interface.
That's simply not true and apart from that you're stuck with using Javascript for any local application logic which is horrendously slow on the iPhone, making AJAX apps painful. Google Gears is basically an offline Javascript library and SQLlite database.
Then we've got the problem of access to online apps with no or slow net access - no 3G remember.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alienzed
The industry is moving towards 100% online applications, why would Apple, who historically uses modern technologies first as standard(USB, Firewire) break their pattern and support the old programming model.
The big problem with you people who want true third party apps, is your age, and it really shows. Get with the times already and make your app work on the web like it should.
So if that were the case, the iPhone would only have a browser on it and wouldn't come with Apple's Email app, stocks, weather, googlemaps, youtube, iTunes.... etc and you'd have to get mail from .Mac via a web interface and all your music would be streamed from Apple not synced.
Really, there's a place for online apps and there's a place for offline apps and there's a place for meddling with Job's flawed idea of perfection.
personally, I see nothing wrong with web apps. I would love to see thousands of them that I could use on an iPhone. However, I happen to use my phone/PDA where an internet connection isn't available or isn't fast enough to use web apps. Why should I be written off completely? If I wanted to use Google Docs as my note pad, then I would. I don't want to. That's the point of choice.
Here is a perfectly good example of how useful an application running locally can be. I use Metro on my Palm T/X quite a bit when I am riding a subway in foreign cities. Metro has lots of useful information about getting from point A to point B. Unfortunately, access to the internet is usually quite limited when deep in the bowels of London or New York. Sure, I could plan everything out ahead, but if I was that good at knowing exactly what I was going to do then I could plan my trips from the hotel before I leave in the morning. I could stick to a rigid schedule in the face of changes occurring during the day.
I'm somewhat okay with web apps, meaning I can deal with them. But only if it was on a network with descent speed. This EDGE crap is worthless. What good is a web app if I primarily can only use it at home on my WiFi network? I think I'd rather just walk 10 feet to my Mac and just use that.
I'm holding on wishing that Jobs will push AT&T to improve their EDGE service. I can't imagine Jobs would want to tie his name with anything that is sub-par (well, then again, I never did see how big that check from AT&T was).
You can't possibly be a developer, because any real developer with common sense knows that the future of computing, most of which is already here, is NOT run on your local computer.
....
The industry is moving towards 100% online applications, why would Apple, who historically uses modern technologies first as standard(USB, Firewire) break their pattern and support the old programming model.
If you've been developing for a while, I'd think you'd know the pendulum swings both ways, between centralized/remote apps and local apps for many tasks. I really doubt that web apps can be used for everything, 100% is a long, long ways away.
iPhone apps aren't big, they don't need to be and shouldn't be big.
While a lot of people would love 3rd party apps I don't see that being delivered until Apple has the iPhone environment established at the level they want it to be at. Part of the roadmap may be related to the software side and, more importantly, part may be related to the review that Apple is said to be doing on Intel's new mobile chip. Throw in the fact that a user with a lot of songs, pics, etc. starts downloading some apps that eat memory and the initial iPhones could be overloaded rather quickly. People tend to look at the iPhone as "part computer" and I can see a lot loading it to the hilt. My thinking is that Apple will want to wait until there is 16 or even 32 gigs available for 3rd party apps to happen.
I agree. The first half of your comment is similar to one I've read before at Ars, and I think it's very compelling.vThe second half about the memory is very interesting. It might be true. But dayum, 8GB is really a LOT of memory. How much does the OS itself take up? Anybody out there know offhand? I seem it recall it's less than a half gig, but I can't remember for sure anymore.
- Offline apps are a necessity - you need them when away from a network, and they usually run faster than online apps. A hybrid is the best IMO - local code for quick response, updating itself remotely.
- Cocoa is supposed to offer so many goodies - so that a small program is capable of so much. Does this not apply on the iPhone?
- I hope that Apple's offline efforts dovetail with Googles offline web apps efforts at some level
- Aren't widgets web based too? Should they come together to some degree?
You can't possibly be a developer, because any real developer with common sense knows that the future of computing, most of which is already here, is NOT run on your local computer. Why in God's name would you want to run an app ON your iPhone, lose valuable offline memory (8gbs isn't much buddy) and worry about tiny little processing power when ANYTHING you can do in a real world app can be done over the web, using a web interface.
You can't actually be for real.
1. Ever been on an airplane? So much for your ability to jot down notes while you're sitting there with nothing else to do.
2. Ever look at the coverage area for AT&T/Cingular for the left half of the US other than California? Go to <http://www.wireless.att.com/coverageviewer/>; if not and tell me how I'm supposed to use online apps. I live in Los Alamos (87545) which contrary to what shows on the map, has NO coverage at all.
3. As mentioned by someone else, what about things like GPS.
And for ANYONE that says you'll ruin your iPhone by loading it with apps, that's total BS IF the device was created correctly. Maybe you should google "protected memory"
For the person who said 8 GB isn't enough for apps, I started on a Commodore 64 (that would be 64K of memory) with a 170K floppy. On that device, I had a pretty damn good word processor WITH spell-checking, a spreadsheet application, tons of games, etc. I don't think everything I had took up more than about 10-15 MEG. I still remember being extremely envious when a friend of mine got a 20 MEG hard drive.
Maybe you need to go back to school and learn how to program from someone that still remembers punched cards and paper tape.
We are witnessing one of the great blunders of the computer industry and without a doubt the greatest blunder of Apples history.
Steve, your a genius.
And you've thought through the matter deeply from both angles? Please show us evidence of this. Otherwise you just sound like the comic book guy from the Simpsons, "Worst. Decision. Ever."
I wonder if you know what it takes to produce a solid SDK with entirely new modes of interaction whose rules may still be in flux even amongst the actual iPhone development team?
Long live 1.0.2 !! We should all go out and buy Zunes for this lunacy. Stop being a hammer Jobs and open the f'en thing...or at least stop messing with the dev team and let them do what you are apparently are to pride hungry to do. The device is NOT perfect but that's OK! Let the PEOPLE make it perfect for themselves so it is perfect for their needs... Jeez
1. Ever been on an airplane? So much for your ability to jot down notes while you're sitting there with nothing else to do.
Actually, that's the point of 'Google Gears' and what this story is about. Google gears is an OFFLINE AJAX library with a LOCAL SQL database store that caches any changes you do locally and then syncs back the changes when you're online again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronbo
I wonder if you know what it takes to produce a solid SDK with entirely new modes of interaction whose rules may still be in flux even amongst the actual iPhone development team?
It's a pity they didn't finish it before release. As such the current iPhone isn't even a beta product. Heck, I've worked on pre-release operating systems that came with extensive SDKs.
And it's still no excuse for what would seem to be a deliberate act to break 3rd party applications and to deliberately stomp over applications like iToner which just modified data on the iPhone, not installing apps.
You can't possibly be a developer, because any real developer with common sense knows that the future of computing, most of which is already here, is NOT run on your local computer. Why in God's name would you want to run an app ON your iPhone, lose valuable offline memory (8gbs isn't much buddy) and worry about tiny little processing power when ANYTHING you can do in a real world app can be done over the web, using a web interface.
[...]
The big problem with you people who want true third party apps, is your age, and it really shows. Get with the times already and make your app work on the web like it should.
LOL. Your immaturity shows. The absolute best a web app could ever do is emulate a native app ... through HTML and interpreted JavaScript. Mobile networks are not infallible. You don't always want to rely on them for access to your software and/or to store your private data. Even if you allow web apps to store data locally, do you seriously think interpreted web apps take less storage space than a compiled one or execute faster??? Web apps are also far more expensive to develop and maintain because they usually rely on 3-4 different languages just to code and require a server to operate.
at least stop messing with the dev team and let them do what you are apparently are to pride hungry to do. The device is NOT perfect but that's OK! Let the PEOPLE make it perfect for themselves so it is perfect for their needs... Jeez
I'd like to see the iPhone open... but there's one good reason I can see for keeping it closed.
Jobs criticised phones for being hard to use - they have so many features but most people can't work them out. The iPhone is simple - and it has less features. If you add customised apps to an iPhone, and you add customised apps to a Nokia, you run the risk of having similar levels of "ease of use" on both phones.
However, I believe an Apple quality assurance program, with particular interaction paradigms etc, and a requirement to place apps in particular positions, would do that quite well.
add opening a linked vCal/iCal event(s) in the Calendar and vCard in Contacts to it's currently huge SDK of: using mailto to send mail, dialing the phone, and opening a map at a location (if it doesn't already do it)
create a whole new storage mechanism that is incompatible with and competes with Google Gears
I'd like to see the iPhone open... but there's one good reason I can see for keeping it closed.
Jobs criticised phones for being hard to use - they have so many features but most people can't work them out. The iPhone is simple - and it has less features. If you add customised apps to an iPhone, and you add customised apps to a Nokia, you run the risk of having similar levels of "ease of use" on both phones.
However, I believe an Apple quality assurance program, with particular interaction paradigms etc, and a requirement to place apps in particular positions, would do that quite well.
that is nonsense... I would control the level of complexity on the phone because i choose what apps i want to run.. If they want to ship a phone that comes out of the box with your basic functionality that a dunce will understand... Then go right ahead....but dont limit me because i want to do more "advanced" things ( that the phone has no problem running as we have seen).. The phones ease of use is its interface, not its features.. The gestures, scrolling, zooming.... These can all be put to use in native apps
This seems to be a response to the outcry over the recent firmware update killing the third party apps. That is a good thing. It shows that Apple responds to the pressure of the market place. We'll have to see how far this goes.
My personal take is that Apple has extensive future plans for adding apps to the iPhone. Whether these are good plans or not they may want to keep the field clear for their own development. This does not necessarily jibe with the needs of the consumer so I think there will be a bit of tug-of-war on this topic in the next six months.
that is nonsense... I would control the level of complexity on the phone because i choose what apps i want to run.. If they want to ship a phone that comes out of the box with your basic functionality that a dunce will understand... Then go right ahead....but dont limit me because i want to do more "advanced" things ( that the phone has no problem running as we have seen).. The phones ease of use is its interface, not its features.. The gestures, scrolling, zooming.... These can all be put to use in native apps
You're almost right, but not quite - I believe
The ease of use can be an interface, but sometimes its necessary to break old-style interface methods in order to force both users and developers to think differently. Removing the Function keys from early Macs was an example of breaking the old way and forcing people to use the mouse and menus.
That said... I'm not sure whether Apple is defining a new way of interfacing with phones... nor whether the 3rd party apps followed Apple's interaction methods precisely & accurately. To jump to a related rumour... I do believe that the key to an iTablet would be not allowing normal desktop apps to work (since normal desktop apps will lean towards using a pop up keyboard and mouse pointer)... but I'm not convinced an iPhone falls into that category. (edit1: and even if it is... allowing web apps doesn't force a paradigm shift!)
edit2: And back to my point... If you add lots of applications to the phone, other than in a segmented off area, then access to the basic features can be compromised. The basic methodology of Nokia etc has been "more = better", while Apple has been "simpler = better". I can see Apple wants to avoid slipping into 'more'... it's a slippery slope.
As I said... I'd like to see the iPhone open. That's just the only good reason I could see... for the moment I can see value in greater control by Apple, but I'd like more apps (if I could get an iPhone, I'm in Australia).
Comments
I'm tired of editing my video in Final Cut on my big bulky MacBook Pro!
Apple GIVE us 3-party apps on iPhone NOW!
Years ago when I bought my Palm, I was overjoyed with the ability to add 3rd party apps.
...
1.5 years later, I threw it into the trash after it became so riddled with bugs and system crashes from all the crap developer code out there. Literally threw the phone into the trash, it was a POS.
I'd rather wait to have Apple develop more apps properly.
My thinking is that Apple will want to wait until there is 16 or even 32 gigs available for 3rd party apps to happen.
Huh?
The 8GB of RAM in the iPhone is for storage not main ram. I don't know how much it's actually got as main ram but I'd guess no more than 256MB.
Most smart phones have 32 to 128MB of RAM, not GBs. One of the complaints I had with the SE P990i was that it only had 21MB free for Applications. They fixed that in the P1i, adding more RAM.
The whole of the iPhone OS, including all it's applications is a couple of hundred MB at most. The apps are tiny. We're not talking about running Final Cut on an iPhone, just simple apps.
You can't possibly be a developer, because any real developer with common sense knows that the future of computing, most of which is already here, is NOT run on your local computer. Why in God's name would you want to run an app ON your iPhone, lose valuable offline memory (8gbs isn't much buddy) and worry about tiny little processing power when ANYTHING you can do in a real world app can be done over the web, using a web interface.
That's simply not true and apart from that you're stuck with using Javascript for any local application logic which is horrendously slow on the iPhone, making AJAX apps painful. Google Gears is basically an offline Javascript library and SQLlite database.
Then we've got the problem of access to online apps with no or slow net access - no 3G remember.
The industry is moving towards 100% online applications, why would Apple, who historically uses modern technologies first as standard(USB, Firewire) break their pattern and support the old programming model.
The big problem with you people who want true third party apps, is your age, and it really shows. Get with the times already and make your app work on the web like it should.
So if that were the case, the iPhone would only have a browser on it and wouldn't come with Apple's Email app, stocks, weather, googlemaps, youtube, iTunes.... etc and you'd have to get mail from .Mac via a web interface and all your music would be streamed from Apple not synced.
Really, there's a place for online apps and there's a place for offline apps and there's a place for meddling with Job's flawed idea of perfection.
Here is a perfectly good example of how useful an application running locally can be. I use Metro on my Palm T/X quite a bit when I am riding a subway in foreign cities. Metro has lots of useful information about getting from point A to point B. Unfortunately, access to the internet is usually quite limited when deep in the bowels of London or New York. Sure, I could plan everything out ahead, but if I was that good at knowing exactly what I was going to do then I could plan my trips from the hotel before I leave in the morning. I could stick to a rigid schedule in the face of changes occurring during the day.
I'm holding on wishing that Jobs will push AT&T to improve their EDGE service. I can't imagine Jobs would want to tie his name with anything that is sub-par (well, then again, I never did see how big that check from AT&T was).
Steve, your a genius.
You can't possibly be a developer, because any real developer with common sense knows that the future of computing, most of which is already here, is NOT run on your local computer.
....
The industry is moving towards 100% online applications, why would Apple, who historically uses modern technologies first as standard(USB, Firewire) break their pattern and support the old programming model.
If you've been developing for a while, I'd think you'd know the pendulum swings both ways, between centralized/remote apps and local apps for many tasks. I really doubt that web apps can be used for everything, 100% is a long, long ways away.
iPhone apps aren't big, they don't need to be and shouldn't be big.
While a lot of people would love 3rd party apps I don't see that being delivered until Apple has the iPhone environment established at the level they want it to be at. Part of the roadmap may be related to the software side and, more importantly, part may be related to the review that Apple is said to be doing on Intel's new mobile chip. Throw in the fact that a user with a lot of songs, pics, etc. starts downloading some apps that eat memory and the initial iPhones could be overloaded rather quickly. People tend to look at the iPhone as "part computer" and I can see a lot loading it to the hilt. My thinking is that Apple will want to wait until there is 16 or even 32 gigs available for 3rd party apps to happen.
I agree. The first half of your comment is similar to one I've read before at Ars, and I think it's very compelling.vThe second half about the memory is very interesting. It might be true. But dayum, 8GB is really a LOT of memory. How much does the OS itself take up? Anybody out there know offhand? I seem it recall it's less than a half gig, but I can't remember for sure anymore.
- Offline apps are a necessity - you need them when away from a network, and they usually run faster than online apps. A hybrid is the best IMO - local code for quick response, updating itself remotely.
- Cocoa is supposed to offer so many goodies - so that a small program is capable of so much. Does this not apply on the iPhone?
- I hope that Apple's offline efforts dovetail with Googles offline web apps efforts at some level
- Aren't widgets web based too? Should they come together to some degree?
You can't possibly be a developer, because any real developer with common sense knows that the future of computing, most of which is already here, is NOT run on your local computer. Why in God's name would you want to run an app ON your iPhone, lose valuable offline memory (8gbs isn't much buddy) and worry about tiny little processing power when ANYTHING you can do in a real world app can be done over the web, using a web interface.
You can't actually be for real.
1. Ever been on an airplane? So much for your ability to jot down notes while you're sitting there with nothing else to do.
2. Ever look at the coverage area for AT&T/Cingular for the left half of the US other than California? Go to <http://www.wireless.att.com/coverageviewer/>; if not and tell me how I'm supposed to use online apps. I live in Los Alamos (87545) which contrary to what shows on the map, has NO coverage at all.
3. As mentioned by someone else, what about things like GPS.
And for ANYONE that says you'll ruin your iPhone by loading it with apps, that's total BS IF the device was created correctly. Maybe you should google "protected memory"
For the person who said 8 GB isn't enough for apps, I started on a Commodore 64 (that would be 64K of memory) with a 170K floppy. On that device, I had a pretty damn good word processor WITH spell-checking, a spreadsheet application, tons of games, etc. I don't think everything I had took up more than about 10-15 MEG. I still remember being extremely envious when a friend of mine got a 20 MEG hard drive.
Maybe you need to go back to school and learn how to program from someone that still remembers punched cards and paper tape.
We are witnessing one of the great blunders of the computer industry and without a doubt the greatest blunder of Apples history.
Steve, your a genius.
And you've thought through the matter deeply from both angles? Please show us evidence of this. Otherwise you just sound like the comic book guy from the Simpsons, "Worst. Decision. Ever."
I wonder if you know what it takes to produce a solid SDK with entirely new modes of interaction whose rules may still be in flux even amongst the actual iPhone development team?
1. Ever been on an airplane? So much for your ability to jot down notes while you're sitting there with nothing else to do.
Nice point.
1. Ever been on an airplane? So much for your ability to jot down notes while you're sitting there with nothing else to do.
Actually, that's the point of 'Google Gears' and what this story is about. Google gears is an OFFLINE AJAX library with a LOCAL SQL database store that caches any changes you do locally and then syncs back the changes when you're online again.
I wonder if you know what it takes to produce a solid SDK with entirely new modes of interaction whose rules may still be in flux even amongst the actual iPhone development team?
It's a pity they didn't finish it before release. As such the current iPhone isn't even a beta product. Heck, I've worked on pre-release operating systems that came with extensive SDKs.
And it's still no excuse for what would seem to be a deliberate act to break 3rd party applications and to deliberately stomp over applications like iToner which just modified data on the iPhone, not installing apps.
You can't possibly be a developer, because any real developer with common sense knows that the future of computing, most of which is already here, is NOT run on your local computer. Why in God's name would you want to run an app ON your iPhone, lose valuable offline memory (8gbs isn't much buddy) and worry about tiny little processing power when ANYTHING you can do in a real world app can be done over the web, using a web interface.
[...]
The big problem with you people who want true third party apps, is your age, and it really shows. Get with the times already and make your app work on the web like it should.
LOL. Your immaturity shows. The absolute best a web app could ever do is emulate a native app ... through HTML and interpreted JavaScript. Mobile networks are not infallible. You don't always want to rely on them for access to your software and/or to store your private data. Even if you allow web apps to store data locally, do you seriously think interpreted web apps take less storage space than a compiled one or execute faster??? Web apps are also far more expensive to develop and maintain because they usually rely on 3-4 different languages just to code and require a server to operate.
at least stop messing with the dev team and let them do what you are apparently are to pride hungry to do. The device is NOT perfect but that's OK! Let the PEOPLE make it perfect for themselves so it is perfect for their needs... Jeez
I'd like to see the iPhone open... but there's one good reason I can see for keeping it closed.
Jobs criticised phones for being hard to use - they have so many features but most people can't work them out. The iPhone is simple - and it has less features. If you add customised apps to an iPhone, and you add customised apps to a Nokia, you run the risk of having similar levels of "ease of use" on both phones.
However, I believe an Apple quality assurance program, with particular interaction paradigms etc, and a requirement to place apps in particular positions, would do that quite well.
- add opening a linked vCal/iCal event(s) in the Calendar and vCard in Contacts to it's currently huge SDK of: using mailto to send mail, dialing the phone, and opening a map at a location (if it doesn't already do it)
- create a whole new storage mechanism that is incompatible with and competes with Google Gears
Somebody pinch me and see if I'm excited.I'd like to see the iPhone open... but there's one good reason I can see for keeping it closed.
Jobs criticised phones for being hard to use - they have so many features but most people can't work them out. The iPhone is simple - and it has less features. If you add customised apps to an iPhone, and you add customised apps to a Nokia, you run the risk of having similar levels of "ease of use" on both phones.
However, I believe an Apple quality assurance program, with particular interaction paradigms etc, and a requirement to place apps in particular positions, would do that quite well.
that is nonsense... I would control the level of complexity on the phone because i choose what apps i want to run.. If they want to ship a phone that comes out of the box with your basic functionality that a dunce will understand... Then go right ahead....but dont limit me because i want to do more "advanced" things ( that the phone has no problem running as we have seen).. The phones ease of use is its interface, not its features.. The gestures, scrolling, zooming.... These can all be put to use in native apps
My personal take is that Apple has extensive future plans for adding apps to the iPhone. Whether these are good plans or not they may want to keep the field clear for their own development. This does not necessarily jibe with the needs of the consumer so I think there will be a bit of tug-of-war on this topic in the next six months.
that is nonsense... I would control the level of complexity on the phone because i choose what apps i want to run.. If they want to ship a phone that comes out of the box with your basic functionality that a dunce will understand... Then go right ahead....but dont limit me because i want to do more "advanced" things ( that the phone has no problem running as we have seen).. The phones ease of use is its interface, not its features.. The gestures, scrolling, zooming.... These can all be put to use in native apps
You're almost right, but not quite - I believe
The ease of use can be an interface, but sometimes its necessary to break old-style interface methods in order to force both users and developers to think differently. Removing the Function keys from early Macs was an example of breaking the old way and forcing people to use the mouse and menus.
That said... I'm not sure whether Apple is defining a new way of interfacing with phones... nor whether the 3rd party apps followed Apple's interaction methods precisely & accurately. To jump to a related rumour... I do believe that the key to an iTablet would be not allowing normal desktop apps to work (since normal desktop apps will lean towards using a pop up keyboard and mouse pointer)... but I'm not convinced an iPhone falls into that category. (edit1: and even if it is... allowing web apps doesn't force a paradigm shift!)
edit2: And back to my point... If you add lots of applications to the phone, other than in a segmented off area, then access to the basic features can be compromised. The basic methodology of Nokia etc has been "more = better", while Apple has been "simpler = better". I can see Apple wants to avoid slipping into 'more'... it's a slippery slope.
As I said... I'd like to see the iPhone open. That's just the only good reason I could see... for the moment I can see value in greater control by Apple, but I'd like more apps (if I could get an iPhone, I'm in Australia).