Will People Ever Learn?

Posted:
in iPod + iTunes + AppleTV edited January 2014
According to http://www.macsurfer.com/redir.php?u=278694, the iPod touch crowd is going down the same road as the iPhone hackers. How long will it be before we start hearing stories about bricked iPod touches. Any sympathy I had for these people is completely gone. I am starting to thing that these hacks are being sponsored by competitors to brick as many Apple products as possible so that Apple can get bad press and spend time chasing its tail undoing what idiots are doing.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 37
    glossgloss Posts: 506member
    Or possibly by people who want to use their little hand-held Mac to its utmost capability rather than a completely arbitrary performance level set by Apple for marketing purposes.
  • Reply 2 of 37
    cosmonutcosmonut Posts: 4,872member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by gloss View Post


    Or possibly by people who want to use their little hand-held Mac to its utmost capability rather than a completely arbitrary performance level set by Apple for marketing purposes.



    Amen!



    There is NO REASON why an iPod touch can't have calendar-editing capability...except that Apple wants it that way.



    Hack on, my friends. Hack on.
  • Reply 3 of 37
    Sure. Hack on. Just save your Digg outrage when Apple refuses to service your h4x0red device. Seeing how you're big h4x0rz, you'll be able to fix them yourself anyway, right?
  • Reply 4 of 37
    shetlineshetline Posts: 4,695member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mac Voyer View Post


    According to http://www.macsurfer.com/redir.php?u=278694, the iPod touch crowd is going down the same road as the iPhone hackers.



    Supposedly the only reason an iPhone can become "bricked" -- from what I've gathered here on AI -- has to do with the SIM lock mechanism. An iPod has no SIM lock, and therefore no matter what you do to your iPod that doesn't involved outright physical damage, you should be able to do a hard reset, wipe the iPod clean, and start fresh. You'll lose your hacks, and might not be able to install them again, but your iPod should still be completely functional.



    Any other result would require a deliberate malicious design, it would mean Apple went out of their way in making a deliberate decision, and expending additional software/hardware development time, to create a mechanism designed to punish anyone who dares meddle with their iPod.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by neven View Post


    Sure. Hack on. Just save your Digg outrage when Apple refuses to service your h4x0red device. Seeing how you're big h4x0rz, you'll be able to fix them yourself anyway, right?



    Are you so very offended by the idea that someone might want to customize their iPod that you actually hope for Apple to behave in a deliberately punative fashion, when allowing a full reset to clear out any problem from any hack (or from any unforeseen bug that's Apple's fault) is the easiest, most straight-forward design decision?
  • Reply 5 of 37
    glossgloss Posts: 506member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by neven View Post


    Sure. Hack on. Just save your Digg outrage when Apple refuses to service your h4x0red device. Seeing how you're big h4x0rz, you'll be able to fix them yourself anyway, right?



    As far as I can tell, hacked touches can be restored completely without any trouble.



    Seems like a win-win to me.
  • Reply 6 of 37
    pt123pt123 Posts: 696member
    How about people vowing they would buy a newly released Apple product after the $200 price drop? Seems like those people didn't learn either.
  • Reply 7 of 37
    gustavgustav Posts: 825member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by gloss View Post


    Or possibly by people who want to use their little hand-held Mac to its utmost capability rather than a completely arbitrary performance level set by Apple for marketing purposes.



    Sure you can - at your own risk, not Apple's. For Apple to provide functionality they have to be able to support it. If they can not or do not want to support functionality, then they are doing the correct thing in not supporting it. But if you ruin your iPod by doing something that Apple doesn't support, it's your own fault.
  • Reply 8 of 37
    glossgloss Posts: 506member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gustav View Post


    Sure you can - at your own risk, not Apple's. For Apple to provide functionality they have to be able to support it. If they can not or do not want to support functionality, then they are doing the correct thing in not supporting it. But if you ruin your iPod by doing something that Apple doesn't support, it's your own fault.



    Oh, I absolutely agree. I wouldn't dare blame Apple if I bricked my iPod while trying to hack it. I do, though, place a little on them for forcing so many loyal users to resort to hacking them in the first place.
  • Reply 9 of 37
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,660member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by shetline View Post


    Supposedly the only reason an iPhone can become "bricked" -- from what I've gathered here on AI -- has to do with the SIM lock mechanism. An iPod has no SIM lock, and therefore no matter what you do to your iPod that doesn't involved outright physical damage, you should be able to do a hard reset, wipe the iPod clean, and start fresh. You'll lose your hacks, and might not be able to install them again, but your iPod should still be completely functional.



    Any other result would require a deliberate malicious design, it would mean Apple went out of their way in making a deliberate decision, and expending additional software/hardware development time, to create a mechanism designed to punish anyone who dares meddle with their iPod.







    Are you so very offended by the idea that someone might want to customize their iPod that you actually hope for Apple to behave in a deliberately punative fashion, when allowing a full reset to clear out any problem from any hack (or from any unforeseen bug that's Apple's fault) is the easiest, most straight-forward design decision?



    Well, it probably doesn't matter if they do or don't, at this point. Apple could upgrade the software on the Touch in such a way that it broke some or all hacked third party apps, nothing more, and there's going to people claiming that Apple "bricked" their iPod maliciously.



    Doesn't matter if it's just a few iPods that respond erratically to an update, doesn't matter if its even true, the story will spread like wildfire. Anything from flakey browser behavior to lost data will be reported as "bricked", since there seems to be a whole lot of people that just really, really like using their new word that they don't actually know what it means.



    I still haven't seen any reliable confirmation that the iPhone update was particularly rough on non-hacked phones, or phones that had hacked apps but nothing done to the sim card compatibility, yet the idea that both those things happened at some kind of statistically significant level seems to be accepted as gospel, by a lot of people. Apple was bricking bone stock iPhones just to be extra evil, apparently.



    Imagine if OS X updates were held to this standard-- peripherals not working after updating to Panther? Apple bricked your computer! Leopard incompatible with XYZ third party app? Apple bricked your computer! On purpose! Out of spite!



    I mean, the Touch hack relies on a damn buffer overrun, FFS. It's a bug that hackers exploited. When Apple fixes the bug and the apps don't work, does that mean it was teh malicious and just like Microsoft and monopolistic and pure evil and customer hating?



    This has been mentioned here and there, but it bears repeating: there is an argument that Apple "should" or "must" open up the iPhone/iTouch platform to third party development. Fine. I think they should as well, although from what I've read they've got perfectly sound technical reasons for not having done so so far.



    But that is a very different discussion from "Apple should or must support third party developers, so if I use non-supported, hacked software Apple should or must support that."



    Which is different discussion from "Apple should have made it impossible to even try to upgrade my unlocked iPhone, even though they begged me not to, so therefore when I went ahead and tried anyway it was clearly a case of punitive destruction of my phone." Which is not so much a discussion as a high pitched droning noise.



    There seems to be the idea that people can force Apple's hand, by going forward with third party hacks, but what that would mean in practice is that Apple would have to figure out which bugs hackers have exploited to get there stuff running, and freeze those bugs forever so those hacks never break.



    I cannot for the life of me see how that makes any sense. Be mad at Apple for not providing a SDK for the iPhone/Touch. Don't be mad at them for playing along with a completely untenable course of action.
  • Reply 10 of 37
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by gloss View Post


    Oh, I absolutely agree. I wouldn't dare blame Apple if I bricked my iPod while trying to hack it. I do, though, place a little on them for forcing so many loyal users to resort to hacking them in the first place.



    They do not force anyone to do anything.



    They sell a product with a published feature set. I the customers aren't happy with that, they don't have to buy it. It's really that easy.



    If people want to fool around with their Touch, that's fine, but when something goes wrong and they start whining like a 3-year-old, then there is a maturity problem. If they break it, they fix it; if they expect Apple to, then the price will increase and they will bitch even more.



    The iPhones that got bricked were slightly different: there is a contract involved. People broke the contract and thus deserve no pity.
  • Reply 11 of 37
    mac voyermac voyer Posts: 1,291member
    At risk of bricking my privilege to post on this board, I am going to cross post from another thread I made in the iPhone forum:



    I am completely in favor of the experimentalist who buys a product and tries to make it even better. After all, that is a time honored business model. What the experimentalist has to know is that once they start experimenting with the product, they sever all ties with the manufacturer. They are on their own. This is true for both hardware and software. Unlocking the iP took some mad skills and real dedication. They actually had to do some trickery with the modem to make it work. There should be no reasonable expectation that Apple will provide a restore path for would be inventors and those who want to take away from Apple's bottom line. If you want to experiment, be prepared to buy two or more of the product. Some people seem to think that just because it was a software hack, Apple should support it. News flash! If you screw up the firmware on your Mac so that you cannot get it restarted again, and the problem was caused by something you did, your warranty will not cover that damage either.



    On a different note, I hope Apple does not fix the bricked phones, at least the ones that were intentionally hacked. I do not want to have to wait to speak to a genius about a real problem because ten other people are taking up their time and mine fixing a problem caused by the consumer. I don't want Apple's dev team wasting time trying to undo what the hackers have done. Rather, I want them to continue making compelling advances to the functionality of the phone.



    To recap,

    Point 1. I love experimenters and I want them to succeed most of the time. But you have to consider the cost of product development. Buying multiple products to experiment is a part of that cost.



    Point 2. Software is the same as hardware. I suspect there are quite a few things you can do in the terminal to brick a Mac. Sorry, that is not covered under your Apple Care.



    Point 3. Apple barely had enough human resources to get this phone out the door in great working order. Even as we post, they are working on adding new functionality. It harms the iPhones present and future if they have to divert those precious resources to undoing damage caused by experimenters.



    For all you experimenters out there, please buy more phones. I can't wait to see what you come up with. Also, the next time Apple clearly says not to do a thing lest it brick your phone, that is a pretty non-subtile hint that you should not do it. For those who were innocently misled, you may want to find a new source of advice. Even you had to know better at some level. It is like cigarettes. People have been calling them coffin nails for decades. When the cigarette industry was sued by the states, there was not a person alive who didn't know the product was addictive and deadly. Consider firmware hacks on your iPhone as coffin nails for the iPhone. Now enough with these frivolous lawsuits. Let the rest of us get back to enjoying the best out of the box phone experience in the history of the planet.



    Even though I was clearly talking about the iPhone at the time, I believe that most of it applies to the iPt as well. What people are trying to do is to get functionality that they didn't want to pay for by purchasing a cheaper product and adding features of a more expensive one. I get that. I'm a cheapskate too. But Apple is free to change its firmware anytime, and in any way they choose. I have no doubts that we will soon be seeing reports of bricked iPt. So for all you Linux loving, open-source, MPC lusting hackers out there, I offer you the words of the inimitable Sponge Bob: "Good luck with that."
  • Reply 12 of 37
    mac voyermac voyer Posts: 1,291member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tonton View Post


    What if Alienware created a circuit that would render your gaming PC inoperable if you overclocked the CPU? And even after you reversed the overclocking, it still no longer worked. Wouldn't you be pissed?



    OK... another example: What if you bought a Porsche and Porsche told you that if you installed a third-party GPS unit, the car wouldn't work any more. They required you to buy a Porsche GPS unit. But Porsche didn't manufacture a GPS unit that worked in your country. Then someone came up with a way to make a third-party GPS unit work, and you bought one, and installed it and it worked fine. Then when you took your car in for service, the service staff turned off your car's CPU, rendering the entire car inoperable, because you broke Porsche's TOS. And they said "tough shit".



    Tough luck on all counts. If the car did not have the feature you wanted, you should have bought a different car. If the computer was not fast enough, then you should have paid the extra money for a faster one. Some products have the feature of expandability. Certain components can be swapped out by the consumer. This debate has raged for years. Most Macs, save for the Mac Pro, and all iPods/iPhones do not have the feature of user expandability. You know that before you by the product. Any expansion you do outside of what Apple supports voids the warranty.



    Everyone who bought the iP/iPt was well aware of the feature set. They also knew that Apple did not support any modifications to that feature set. In fact, SJ promised to fight hacks when he said it who be a cat and mouse game. If these restrictions were too much for you, you should have bought a different product that had the features you wanted. Breaking products and re-buying them is the price you pay for tinkering.
  • Reply 13 of 37
    shetlineshetline Posts: 4,695member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mac Voyer View Post


    Tough luck on all counts.



    Do you personally identify more strongly with the idea of being the person selling a product via the "shit sandwich" approach of mixing desirable features with shit the consumer really doesn't want, but might settle for swallowing to get at the good stuff, than you do with the consumer who is frustrated by not being able to get the good stuff without the shit?
  • Reply 14 of 37
    jubelumjubelum Posts: 4,490member
    Apple could fix it all... just stop shipping purposefully-crippled products, to attempt to force people to overbuy for their needs. Jeez... the damn NEWTON had capabilities that this thing doesn't and that was a decade ago. Apple is within 3-4 apps of putting Palm out of business, and are too busy kissing AT&T's arse to give their loyal mac base what it wants.



    We're talking about something as simple as a calendar. And a to-do list. Simple apps that you should not need to be in range of a wi-fi connection to use. This WebApps thing is great for an iphone, and a total diversion on the real needs of the touch.



    Very M$FT maneuver, Apple.
  • Reply 15 of 37
    wilwil Posts: 170member
    Do you have any proof , Jubelum ? Hell , it's easy for you to say Apple purposely crippled their products , but how do you know ? Heck , if you think you know how to design a damn product , why not establish your own damn company , create and build something that will surpass the Touch and the iPhone . Saying it is one thing , building it , that is another story . Interesting thing about the Newton you have forgotten to mention from your post , the Newton was a PDA and these two products are marketed as a phone and music/video player .





    You see Jubelum and Shetline , your opinion means jack shit for the majority of us iPhone and Touch users who seldom or never post in tech boards . Most of us who bought the iPhone and the Touch bought it for what they are intended for , a phone and a music player with very useful additions . We did not have any illusions of these two devices being a computer just because it have OS X , maybe in some future iteration , it may come , but not now . All we want is that our purchase works as advertise , nothing more nothing less .
  • Reply 16 of 37
    wilwil Posts: 170member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tonton View Post


    Oh come on... you're not that ignorant, are you? Apple deliberately limits features and breaks hacks all the time for market control purposes.



    I mean look at the iBook and iMac screen spanning issue. There was NO reason for Apple to disable screen spanning, which both the hardware and software supported, except to try to squeeze more money out of the consumer by forcing them to buy a PowerBook or Mac Pro if they wanted dual screens. Likewise with the iPhone. There's no reason for them to break iToner or whatever it's called except that they want exclusive profit off of your ringtones, unlike every other phone manufacturer on the planet.



    For once I'm 100% in agreement with Jub.



    How about this simple fact , the iBook and the iMac are not marketed to people who needed dual screens . Tell me , how many ordinary Macbook/iBook and iMac users care about screen spanning and dual monitors ? Why force the ordinary Jones to pay for a feature that he will seldom or never use in the useful life of his computer ? Why would Apple INCREASE the price of the iMac/Macbook for a feature that will be wasted on the majority of those computers ? The consumer market have already decided that the iMac with the disabled screen spanning is a good enough computer for the computer hobbyist .



    In regards to the iToner , it's the same reason on why Apple was forced to stop their planned software addon where you can make your own ringtones for free and also unfortunately for iToner , it's also a third party unsupported software for the iPhone . It's just massive bad luck and in case you haven't notice , the music industry owns the content and have a massive cut from every ringtone Apple sells , so whatever profit they get is much smaller than what you have accused them and the music industry wants more than it's fair share .
  • Reply 17 of 37
    mac voyermac voyer Posts: 1,291member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by shetline View Post


    Do you personally identify more strongly with the idea of being the person selling a product via the "shit sandwich" approach of mixing desirable features with shit the consumer really doesn't want, but might settle for swallowing to get at the good stuff, than you do with the consumer who is frustrated by not being able to get the good stuff without the shit?



    Wouldn't it be great if it was that simple? Product engineering, marketing, etc, requires a lot of compromise just to get a product on the shelf to be sold in the firs place. If you want a product with a certain feature set but no style or flare, I am sure you can find it at a price you are willing to pay. But the people who sell those products do not have Jonathan Ives designing for them. Apple, on the other hand has the best industrial designer in the industry. That costs a lot of money. That is money spent before you even get the features. Apparently, it is money well spent. People who do not like the features of Apple products seem to be compelled to buy them anyway. Why can't Apple just give you every thing you could ever want in a device the size of your shirt pocket with a 12 day battery life, make it sexier than a Playboy bunny, and sell it for less than $10?



    You seem to think that Apple owes you something. They do not owe you a GPS, a notepad, or anything else. They owe their shareholders a positive return on investment. Instead of complaining that Apple didn't make the iPt calendar input capable, you should be glad they put a sync-able calendar in there at all. They gave you a Web browser. They didn't have to do that. As someone who paid for the iPhone, I'm am very glad you do not have the same feature set that I have. It was worth it to me to actually pay for the product I wanted, rather than buying a cheaper product and complaining that it has been crippled.



    By the way, you do not owe Apple your patronage. PC users, listen up! Apple is a closed system. They do not sell user upgradable products for the most part. They control everything about the widget you buy from them. Some of us actually consider that a feature. If you want more control than Apple allows, please go to dell.com and generic media player.com Every body is so busy complaining about what is not in a product that just it the store shelves, that they fail to notice all that is there. Apple has an excellent track record of adding features and offering compelling updates. I am quite content to wait and see what Apple does with this new platform. Don't come here looking for sympathy when you break the product that you obviously were not happy with in the first place. I do not want Apple spending its resources fixing your user inflicted problems. I want them to keep creating compelling updates for me. If you don't like the sound of that, you probably should not be buying Apple products. Don't intend to sound mean spirited. This platform is not for everyone. I knew what I was biting into when unwrapped this sandwich. I, for one, think it tastes great. Perhaps you should try a different sandwich shop.
  • Reply 18 of 37
    jubelumjubelum Posts: 4,490member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Wil View Post


    Do you have any proof , Jubelum ? Hell , it's easy for you to say Apple purposely crippled their products , but how do you know ? Heck , if you think you know how to design a damn product , why not establish your own damn company , create and build something that will surpass the Touch and the iPhone . Saying it is one thing , building it , that is another story . Interesting thing about the Newton you have forgotten to mention from your post , the Newton was a PDA and these two products are marketed as a phone and music/video player .



    You see Jubelum and Shetline , your opinion means jack shit for the majority of us iPhone and Touch users who seldom or never post in tech boards . Most of us who bought the iPhone and the Touch bought it for what they are intended for , a phone and a music player with very useful additions . We did not have any illusions of these two devices being a computer just because it have OS X , maybe in some future iteration , it may come , but not now . All we want is that our purchase works as advertise , nothing more nothing less .



    Welcome to the board.



    It's not to hard for *anyone* to see that Apple crippled the touch... it runs the same damn OS as the iPhone (remember the first ones with the iPhone screens?) and there is no technical reason that it cannot run simple apps like notes and a useful calendar app. It was done this way- on purpose. I have called AAPL sales twice about this and what do I get? A read-from-the-book regurgitation of "have you considered the iPhone?" Hell yes, who hasn't? The reality is that AT&T coverage in my area sucks, I already have a phone, and would gladly give Apple whatever price they asked for if they would simply let the thing be as useful as it *could* be. They are not game for that, at least at this point. They downgraded the touch in hopes of selling more iPhone.



    As far as me and shetline, our opinion is worth exactly what yours is- one voice. I really don't care what my opinion means to you... as you said, you rarely post. I'm very proud of you for being Mr. Happy about your iPod. All the better, and my AAPL stock thanks you. I have been through the fire, as many here have, buying Macs in the days when we did not know if the company would exist in six months, er uh, a Freidman Unit. Apple has a long tradition of giving people the utility they want, creating the most useful products they can, and generating sales that way. Hamstringing one product to sell another is a fairly recent move for them. I do not expect the touch to be a computer... but the technology is built-in for simple apps. It's just locked away from users.



    And as far as directing your "you see" and "jack shit" and "prove it" and "start your own company" at me as if I have insulted your mother, sit down and take a long, deep breath. As people progress in the platform and maturity, they generally outgrow the kneejerk fanboi apologetics on behalf of Apple. Such behaviour is the inevitable afterbirth of the Cult of Mac.



    I'm a consumer, and a crippled touch does not do it for me and a whole bunch of other people. So many that Apple deleted the support threads about it. As a shareholder, I want Apple to give people what they want and make a shitload of money doing it. As a user, I'm not happy with Apple creating *almost* a product that I would find extremely useful in my life, but making the decision to degrade that usefulness.
  • Reply 19 of 37
    jubelumjubelum Posts: 4,490member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tonton View Post


    For once I'm 100% in agreement with Jub.



    <agreement w/tonton happens twice in one week, Jubelum ponders if it is worth going on...>
  • Reply 20 of 37
    shetlineshetline Posts: 4,695member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mac Voyer View Post


    Wouldn't it be great if it was that simple? Product engineering, marketing, etc, requires a lot of compromise just to get a product on the shelf to be sold in the firs place. If you want a product with a certain feature set but no style or flare, I am sure you can find it at a price you are willing to pay. But the people who sell those products do not have Jonathan Ives designing for them. Apple, on the other hand has the best industrial designer in the industry. That costs a lot of money. That is money spent before you even get the features. Apparently, it is money well spent. People who do not like the features of Apple products seem to be compelled to buy them anyway. Why can't Apple just give you every thing you could ever want in a device the size of your shirt pocket with a 12 day battery life, make it sexier than a Playboy bunny, and sell it for less than $10?



    It's absolutely amazing how often this kind of completely exaggerated, completely miss-the-point analogy is used.



    I've already quite clearly stated that I'm not talking about expecting $20 cars that get 200 mpg, etc. The "shit sandwich" analogy applies specifically either to deliberate misfeatures -- not a mere lack of something, but deliberate, extra-effort being made to make sure you can't do something that you'd want, like making sure ringtones can only be purchased through iTunes, or a complicated locking mechanism to force you to use one carrier. The "shit sandwich" analogy is also about having great features -- but great features that come saddled with shit you don't want, like exclusive long-term contracts, shit that has nothing to do with reasonable engineering or cost-of-production limitations.



    Quote:

    If you want a product with a certain feature set but no style or flare, I am sure you can find it at a price you are willing to pay.



    But that's where you're wrong. The whole mobile phone industry is all about shit sandwiches. Care to tell me where I can find a mobile web browser as good as the Safari browser in an iPhone that doesn't come saddled with a two-year contract to AT&T, even if I'm quite willing to pay more to get that browser without the forced-to-take-the-bad-with-the-good crap? ("Forced" as in forced if you want the good stuff -- not "forced" to buy the whole product, not "arm twisting" -- something I feel I have to add to preempt one of the all-too-common knee-jerk reactions to this subject.)



    Quote:

    People who do not like the features of Apple products seem to be compelled to buy them anyway.



    Do I really, really need to elaborate on what you're missing here, or can you manage to figure it out yourself?
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