But as a stockholder, I definitely would like to see the product addressing some of the shortcomings addressed here and in other threads.
As a stockholder I'd think you're be too busy doing cartwheels right about now to really give a damn about perceived shortcomings from folks that hadn't contributed to the incredible quarter results.
Quote:
Apple profits surge 67%, shares soar
The consumer electronics giant reports strong fourth-quarter results on strength of Mac and iPhone sales; stock up 6 percent after-hours
As a stockholder I'd think you're be too busy doing cartwheels right about now to really give a damn about perceived shortcomings from folks that hadn't contributed to the incredible quarter results.
Cartwheels were 1 hour ago. I've settled down now. But... is there such a thing as too much growth? Are you not interested in continued sales growth beyond early adopters and Apple fanatics?
The only way to keep on track is to attract new customers who have a 'wait and see' approach regarding SDK. Those (who haven't contributed to the incredible quarter results) are the potential customers who will continue to drive sales in the future. Their concerns are important and Jobs is definitely listening to them, no matter how much you dismiss them as 'perceived shortcomings'.
Cartwheels were 1 hour ago. I've settled down now. But... is there such a thing as too much growth? Are you not interested in continued sales growth beyond early adopters and Apple fanatics?
The only way to keep on track is to attract new customers who have a 'wait and see' approach regarding SDK. Those (who haven't contributed to the incredible quarter results) are the potential customers who will continue to drive sales in the future. Their concerns are important and Jobs is definitely listening to them, no matter how much you dismiss them as 'perceived shortcomings'.
1) Yes, there is too much growth. A company can kill itself this way.
2) If the people I know who have switched in the last year are any indication, they Apple is already well past the fanatic. These were hard-core windows users.
I think apple is addressing there new users constantly, they're just ignoring those that want cheap, low-margin machines. As a stockholder I say great.
thats one way of looking at it.. but has anyone actually made an even approximate study/calculation to see if they would make more money by selling MORE units to ALL mobile phones users?
And all the months they are WASTING by having to get exclusive contracts with ONE Mobile Operator per country at a time?
If Apple would just allow, right now, all 194 countires in the world (a market of a few BILLION people), to go down to their stupid local phone shop or order online, I'm kinda hedging to bet that they'll not only be making MORE money but actually PLEASING customers
EDIT: And there goes my 3000th post.. hurray for me
Isn't it way too early in the product life cycle to be upset about this? It hasn't even been half a year. There's plenty of time to roll the product out to multiple markets, and release unlocked versions.
I don't think its fair to criticize for not moving fast enough given all the needs around procurement of supplies, manufacturing and distribution. They need to build infrastructure and develop a worldwide supply chain network dedicated to the iphone, and not just piggy-back on an existing ipod network that is probably already capacity-constrained.
1) Yes, there is too much growth. A company can kill itself this way.
2) If the people I know who have switched in the last year are any indication, they Apple is already well past the fanatic. These were hard-core windows users.
I think apple is addressing there new users constantly, they're just ignoring those that want cheap, low-margin machines. As a stockholder I say great.
Agreed... I'm thinking a slow progression of new users, not all at once. And I'm talking about growth in sales of one particular product, not an entire suite of various products. I don't think a company ever suffocated from selling too many widgets. But i am all for Apple staying focused on just a few outstanding products with outstanding sales.
Not just fanatics.. early adopters also. These are people who view a product, and take a position quickly. I'd say there are alot of folks who had already decided to purchase before even holding it in their hand. This is in contrast to those who wait to see what the initial feedback is, and maybe wait for a couple firmware updates too.
This is exactly what I thought they'd do, assuming they sold into France at all, heavily mark-up the unlocked device.
Basically, it's because Apple counts on getting subscription money as part of the total price of the device. Despite claims that it's not a subsidized device, it was working out to be that way, just a slightly different way of subsidizing it than we're used to seeing.
This is exactly what I thought they'd do, assuming they sold into France at all, heavily mark-up the unlocked device.
Basically, it's because Apple counts on getting subscription money as part of the total price of the device. Despite claims that it's not a subsidized device, it was working out to be that way, just a slightly different way of subsidizing it than we're used to seeing.
Right. The 'subsidized' price is certainly higher than were used to seeing in a phone, but its subsidized nonetheless.
It would be interesting to see some analysis on how the total iphone 2-year cost in the US compares to buying and using an unlocked iphone in France with 2 years worth of equivalent service (normalized for exchange rate differences). Would it be higher or lower?
aparently it would seem that almost 1/4th of iPhone users seem to agree with the fact that they DON'T WANT a walled garden approach. I wonder how many iPhones are actually being sent aborad and how many are actually being used in the USA/ATT?
bg_nyc... thats a FANTASTIC analogy. I have a Wii as well and indeed, while new users love the thing, it kinda looses its mojo after a while. Games cost an arm and a leg and I can't even use it to play back a simple DVD or use the SD card for Divx playback.
While I'm sure Apple will not fall into that trend, it's an interesting analogy
They need to build infrastructure and develop a worldwide supply chain network dedicated to the iphone, and not just piggy-back on an existing ipod network that is probably already capacity-constrained.
I think its more of a construction hold back rather than distribution. The iPod worldwide channel is more than mature enough afaik. Worse comes to worse they can very easily work with any mobile phone distributor. Just about every country has a few well established mobile phone distributors.
Zo, I would say to you 'stop drinking the feature koolaid'. While I haven't had a 'smartphone' prior to the iPhone I have had a large number of PDA from the newton to the palm. And I can easily say that I never used those because of the difficulty in using them. I do use the iPhone, all of the function, constantly. I had given up buying PDA like devices because, while I could use them they were more trouble than they were worth.
I watched my friend, who just bought a brand new, top end blackberry, and he tried to show me a photo - this took almost 5 minutes of fumbling around. This is after about 2 months of using the phone. Yes, I know the balckberry is not a nokia, but if I described something about a nokia i'd get '...but a blackberry..'. I know the feature lists are not on par.
As far as 'extortion', the use of these pejorative terms, 'extortion', 'monopoly', etc. in these discussions is ridiculous. This is a purchase of a luxury device from a minority player in the mobile market. None of these terms apply in any way, shape, or form.
Hold on hold on.. I never said that the present day iPhone sucks or what not. Its fantastic. BUT. But there is MORE it can do.
Hell, Apple itself just said that they approximate 250k users (of 1.2mil) are hacking their iPhones. Or unlocking them. Or both.
I'd say that gives a pretty damn strong signal.
Otherwise, back on topic, a phone that costs 399euro (with carrier) and suddenly costs 750euro unlocked is unheard of in Europe.
Not that it really matters. Anyone who REALLY wants an unlocked iPhone in Europe is already ordering them directly from the USA, unlocked, for less than 399euros. I've come across a dozen websites that offer them.
Lets see...
Apple wants to sell them in Europe for 399eur (568usd)
That means Apple will make about 40% MORE on the SAME handset just keeping the Euro/Dollar at same numbers
TODAY: "Savvy" users are buying directly from the USA at 399usd (=279euros), or about 40% less
Apple is already losing (or has already lost) the people who will buy the full priced unlocked iPhone.
They are ALSO losing the early adopters who might switch or buy the locked, normal iPhone.
Otherwise, back on topic, a phone that costs 399euro (with carrier) and suddenly costs 750euro unlocked is unheard of in Europe.
Not exactly, Nokia's high end business phones (Communicator series) have reached those prices before, and though cheaper, the N95 isn't that far.
Quote:
Not that it really matters. Anyone who REALLY wants an unlocked iPhone in Europe is already ordering them directly from the USA, unlocked, for less than 399euros. I've come across a dozen websites that offer them.
Lets see...
Apple wants to sell them in Europe for 399eur (568usd)
That means Apple will make about 40% MORE on the SAME handset just keeping the Euro/Dollar at same numbers
TODAY: "Savvy" users are buying directly from the USA at 399usd (=279euros), or about 40% less
Apple is already losing (or has already lost) the people who will buy the full priced unlocked iPhone.
They are ALSO losing the early adopters who might switch or buy the locked, normal iPhone.
Do remember that after European VAT the price should be only a little less in Euros, -10% or so. Customs duties should not make a difference, the phones need to be imported into the US as well. As for the AT&T bound phone, there's a whole lot of people are too timid to hack the locked phone or not willing to sweat over every software upgrade and find out if it's going to do something negative to a hacked phone.
The phone still costs way too much for what it does. Combine with poor brand recognition, and it's not in a good position.
I wouldn't be surprised if an improved hardware version in spring came in at 600?. That could actually sell in the EU market.
Customs duties should not make a difference, the phones need to be imported into the US as well.
What makes you think that those expenses would be the same for both regions? Just because both may charge duties doesn't mean that the duties will be the same.
France VAT is about 20%... and in Europe the advertised price is always final price, the taxes are already included.
NYC is, what, 7,8,9%
The N95 has a feature list that runs laps around the iPhone: GPS, full sized movie taking at 30fps, 5mpix Carl Zeiss camera, 3G, WiFi, etc etc.
There is seriously NO other phone/smart phone on the European market that can be comparable spec wise.. unless you look at catalogs from 2-3 years ago.
What makes you think that those expenses would be the same for both regions? Just because both may charge duties doesn't mean that the duties will be the same.
I have paid about 5% for stuff I have imported. There's no way the US duties differ from that with more than a couple percentage points, so the customs duty will not explain any notable (say 10% and up) difference in the product's price like the ~20% EU VAT does. (To be exact, the VAT is per country and the upper limit for it is 22%. 18%-22% is normal for electronics.)
That story makes the iphone sound like a Nintendo Wii... Very cool looking. Extremely gentle learning curve. Adults are intrigued by it, kids are amazed by it. Found a profitable niche among tough competitors in a savage industry. Thats where the similarities end for now... A year later, nobody cares about the Wii. The games are elementary, and the graphics are circa 1999. All but children have kicked it to the curb. Hardcore gamers wouldn't touch it. Sales of XBOX 360s have surpassed Wii sales again, and PS3s are gaining momentum with time.
What?
Do you have any information that's newer than 1 month? Cumulative global Wii sales exceeded that of 360 as of last month. This is despite a later introduction. I think Wii had one of the fastest up-take rates in consoles in some time.
bg_nyc... thats a FANTASTIC analogy. I have a Wii as well and indeed, while new users love the thing, it kinda looses its mojo after a while. Games cost an arm and a leg and I can't even use it to play back a simple DVD or use the SD card for Divx playback.
They probably would have had to charge maybe $50 more to play DVDs. Sure, you can get DVD players for less than that, but they are actually scofflaws that aren't paying the $20 license fee to make a legal DVD-Video player. Nintendo can't avoid that in the same way.
France VAT is about 20%... and in Europe the advertised price is always final price, the taxes are already included.
NYC is, what, 7,8,9%
The N95 has a feature list that runs laps around the iPhone: GPS, full sized movie taking at 30fps, 5mpix Carl Zeiss camera, 3G, WiFi, etc etc.
There is seriously NO other phone/smart phone on the European market that can be comparable spec wise.. unless you look at catalogs from 2-3 years ago.
The EU has 466 million cellular phone customers and the N95 has sold about 1.5 million units since March.
The iPhone has sold about the same number of phones to 233 million US cell phone customers since June.
I'm thinking your idea of what a feature list looks like as it laps another product might be due for a revision.
I have paid about 5% for stuff I have imported. There's no way the US duties differ from that with more than a couple percentage points, so the customs duty will not explain any notable (say 10% and up) difference in the product's price like the ~20% EU VAT does. (To be exact, the VAT is per country and the upper limit for it is 22%. 18%-22% is normal for electronics.)
OK, I didn't know it was that low for you. I've yet to be charged duties, I don't know what they are.
The EU has 466 million cellular phone customers and the N95 has sold about 1.5 million units since March.
The iPhone has sold about the same number of phones to 233 million US cell phone customers since June.
I'm thinking your idea of what a feature list looks like as it laps another product might be due for a revision.
I know introducing some reality to a true believer in the Jesus Phone is asking for trouble but the N95 has sold more than that. It sold 1.5 million in it's first full quarter (Q2)...
Sales of it's multimedia phones (ie. N series) grew 23% in Q3 and they added the 8GB versions of the N95 and N81. They didn't break it down by model but, let's say they shipped another 1.85 million N95s last quarter. (previous 1.5 million + 23%)
In Q1 they again don't break out the numbers but lets guess about 500,000 N95 since it shipped mid quarter in March.
So, I make that about 3.85 million N95s alone and it's only one of Nokia's N series and E series smartphone range that all are more feature rich than the iPhone. And then you've SE's W series and P series phones and to some extent the HTC and blackberrys.
Taskiss, I'm not surprised you think the iPhone is so good and it's doing so well in America. To paraphrase someone else, it's like giving "ice water to people in hell". The market here is very different to the USA.
ZO is spot on about the walled garden. It may seem like Apple are fighting the carriers in the USA but the deals they've done with carriers in Europe are just unheard of here and both restrictive and expensive. To us it looks like Apple is gouging the carriers who in turn are gouging subscribers.
We use the N95 as an example in these debates as it's broadly comparable and the current consumer multimedia smartphone sitting in the top spot in Europe. It's what Apple is aiming at. It's comparably priced unlocked to the rumoured iPhone price here and in Apple's results they said they were recognising about $100 per quarter for the iPhone making it $800 over the 2 year accounting period. Yet, despite similar unlocked prices, the N95 is available for free on the kinds of locked in contracts Apple (and O2, T-mobile and Orange) are asking. There's a big premium on the iPhone for hardware that's beautiful to look at but technically weak and software that's great at what it does but does so little.
I'm sure it'll still sell by the truck load but then so did the LG Chocolate and the Razr and those were shit. The N95 sells by the truck load and IMHO it's shit too - typical Nokia bulky crap with an overly complex interface.
What we're looking for in Europe is the feature set of the N95 done Apple style.
I know introducing some reality to a true believer in the Jesus Phone is asking for trouble but the N95 has sold more than that. It sold 1.5 million in it's first full quarter (Q2)...
Sales of it's multimedia phones (ie. N series) grew 23% in Q3 and they added the 8GB versions of the N95 and N81. They didn't break it down by model but, let's say they shipped another 1.85 million N95s last quarter. (previous 1.5 million + 23%)
In Q1 they again don't break out the numbers but lets guess about 500,000 N95 since it shipped mid quarter in March.
So, I make that about 3.85 million N95s alone and it's only one of Nokia's N series and E series smartphone range that all are more feature rich than the iPhone. And then you've SE's W series and P series phones and to some extent the HTC and blackberrys.
N95 sold 1.5 M by the end of it's first full quarter and iPhone sold just about 1.5 M by the end of it's full quarter... and the N95 was released in a market twice the size as the one the iPhone was released in... I'm thinking you're beating the drum pretty loudly in order to keep people from seeing what you've written here, buddy. Perhaps YOU need to read what you've written, in fact, since it doesn't support the argument you seem to be wanting to make. Sucks to be you, I guess.
Quote:
Taskiss, I'm not surprised you think the iPhone is so good and it's doing so well in America. To paraphrase someone else, it's like giving "ice water to people in hell". The market here is very different to the USA.
The N95 is available in the USA, so I'm not sure what your point is here...perhaps you want to re-read that, too.
Quote:
ZO is spot on about the walled garden. It may seem like Apple are fighting the carriers in the USA but the deals they've done with carriers in Europe are just unheard of here and both restrictive and expensive. To us it looks like Apple is gouging the carriers who in turn are gouging subscribers.
We use the N95 as an example in these debates as it's broadly comparable and the current consumer multimedia smartphone sitting in the top spot in Europe. It's what Apple is aiming at. It's comparably priced unlocked to the rumoured iPhone price here and in Apple's results they said they were recognising about $100 per quarter for the iPhone making it $800 over the 2 year accounting period. Yet, despite similar unlocked prices, the N95 is available for free on the kinds of locked in contracts Apple (and O2, T-mobile and Orange) are asking. There's a big premium on the iPhone for hardware that's beautiful to look at but technically weak and software that's great at what it does but does so little.
I'm sure it'll still sell by the truck load but then so did the LG Chocolate and the Razr and those were shit. The N95 sells by the truck load and IMHO it's shit too - typical Nokia bulky crap with an overly complex interface.
What we're looking for in Europe is the feature set of the N95 done Apple style.
"I'm sure it'll still sell by the truck load..."
You need to "speak out of only one side of your mouth". Compare "apples to apples", so to speak. Either that or fly to the US and buy a vowel from Vana or whatever. The iPhone isn't going to save the world. It's going to expand on the dominance Apple has in the personal media player market by allowing people to make calls on their iPod. It'll only take up one pocket to carry the tech people want to carry. It's not the end-all and be-all you insist it must be to be relevant and the sales volumes and customer survey results all point to you being totally out of line in your vision of what the device is and should be.
It's a very nice video iPod that I can use to make phone calls with, it's got features that are easy to use, an interface that's an order of magnitude better than any other comparable device, and in addition it allows me to browse the web, get my e-mail, and when I'm finished doing that it slips into my pocket without making me look like I'm very glad to meetcha.
Get a grip and smell the coffee. Don't project your phobia on me... just 'cause you feel you can't be wrong so everyone else must be, ... man, that's your dysfunction, not mine. When it comes to consumer electronics there's more than one right answer.
I didn't even own an iPod before this. All I want to carry is one piece of tech on me and if that tech gets me what the iPhone gets me, it's all good. If it didn't I wouldn't have gotten it. AND - that very same attitude is what Apple's product delivers on. So, when you go off and beat your drum like you do, don't be surprised when someone defends a product that they thoroughly enjoy owning.
In the end, I'm obviously better served by the product than you are. I like using it. It works for me. My "claim to fame" is based on how satisfied I am with it, and your "claim to fame" is how dissatisfied you are with it. It's logical that I defend something that I enjoy, and it speaks to who you are that you feel the need to advertise your dissatisfaction.
N95 sold 1.5 M by the end of it's first full quarter and iPhone sold just about 1.5 M by the end of it's full quarter
I'll explain again...
The N95 sold 1.5 million in just it's SECOND quarter (Nokia's figures) which was it's first FULL quarter, not it's first quarter. It was released midway through Q1. There are no figures for that quarter but I extrapolated 500,000 from the Multimedia divisions sales figures. It's also had an entire third quarter where sales increased 23%. Please read more carefully. That's nearly three quarters since March. It's not 1.5 million since March as you stated. That was just Q2.
500,000 in Q1 +
1.5M in Q2 +
1.85M in Q3
= 3.85M in 7 months.
Apple have sold 1.39 million iPhones (source: Apple) to date. (4 months)
Comments
But as a stockholder, I definitely would like to see the product addressing some of the shortcomings addressed here and in other threads.
As a stockholder I'd think you're be too busy doing cartwheels right about now to really give a damn about perceived shortcomings from folks that hadn't contributed to the incredible quarter results.
Apple profits surge 67%, shares soar
The consumer electronics giant reports strong fourth-quarter results on strength of Mac and iPhone sales; stock up 6 percent after-hours
http://money.cnn.com/2007/10/22/tech...ion=2007102217
As a stockholder I'd think you're be too busy doing cartwheels right about now to really give a damn about perceived shortcomings from folks that hadn't contributed to the incredible quarter results.
http://money.cnn.com/2007/10/22/tech...ion=2007102217
Cartwheels were 1 hour ago. I've settled down now. But... is there such a thing as too much growth? Are you not interested in continued sales growth beyond early adopters and Apple fanatics?
The only way to keep on track is to attract new customers who have a 'wait and see' approach regarding SDK. Those (who haven't contributed to the incredible quarter results) are the potential customers who will continue to drive sales in the future. Their concerns are important and Jobs is definitely listening to them, no matter how much you dismiss them as 'perceived shortcomings'.
Cartwheels were 1 hour ago. I've settled down now. But... is there such a thing as too much growth? Are you not interested in continued sales growth beyond early adopters and Apple fanatics?
The only way to keep on track is to attract new customers who have a 'wait and see' approach regarding SDK. Those (who haven't contributed to the incredible quarter results) are the potential customers who will continue to drive sales in the future. Their concerns are important and Jobs is definitely listening to them, no matter how much you dismiss them as 'perceived shortcomings'.
1) Yes, there is too much growth. A company can kill itself this way.
2) If the people I know who have switched in the last year are any indication, they Apple is already well past the fanatic. These were hard-core windows users.
I think apple is addressing there new users constantly, they're just ignoring those that want cheap, low-margin machines. As a stockholder I say great.
thats one way of looking at it.. but has anyone actually made an even approximate study/calculation to see if they would make more money by selling MORE units to ALL mobile phones users?
And all the months they are WASTING by having to get exclusive contracts with ONE Mobile Operator per country at a time?
If Apple would just allow, right now, all 194 countires in the world (a market of a few BILLION people), to go down to their stupid local phone shop or order online, I'm kinda hedging to bet that they'll not only be making MORE money but actually PLEASING customers
EDIT: And there goes my 3000th post.. hurray for me
Isn't it way too early in the product life cycle to be upset about this? It hasn't even been half a year. There's plenty of time to roll the product out to multiple markets, and release unlocked versions.
I don't think its fair to criticize for not moving fast enough given all the needs around procurement of supplies, manufacturing and distribution. They need to build infrastructure and develop a worldwide supply chain network dedicated to the iphone, and not just piggy-back on an existing ipod network that is probably already capacity-constrained.
1) Yes, there is too much growth. A company can kill itself this way.
2) If the people I know who have switched in the last year are any indication, they Apple is already well past the fanatic. These were hard-core windows users.
I think apple is addressing there new users constantly, they're just ignoring those that want cheap, low-margin machines. As a stockholder I say great.
Agreed... I'm thinking a slow progression of new users, not all at once. And I'm talking about growth in sales of one particular product, not an entire suite of various products. I don't think a company ever suffocated from selling too many widgets. But i am all for Apple staying focused on just a few outstanding products with outstanding sales.
Not just fanatics.. early adopters also. These are people who view a product, and take a position quickly. I'd say there are alot of folks who had already decided to purchase before even holding it in their hand. This is in contrast to those who wait to see what the initial feedback is, and maybe wait for a couple firmware updates too.
Basically, it's because Apple counts on getting subscription money as part of the total price of the device. Despite claims that it's not a subsidized device, it was working out to be that way, just a slightly different way of subsidizing it than we're used to seeing.
This is exactly what I thought they'd do, assuming they sold into France at all, heavily mark-up the unlocked device.
Basically, it's because Apple counts on getting subscription money as part of the total price of the device. Despite claims that it's not a subsidized device, it was working out to be that way, just a slightly different way of subsidizing it than we're used to seeing.
Right. The 'subsidized' price is certainly higher than were used to seeing in a phone, but its subsidized nonetheless.
It would be interesting to see some analysis on how the total iphone 2-year cost in the US compares to buying and using an unlocked iphone in France with 2 years worth of equivalent service (normalized for exchange rate differences). Would it be higher or lower?
http://www.macnn.com/articles/07/10/...for.unlockers/
bg_nyc... thats a FANTASTIC analogy. I have a Wii as well and indeed, while new users love the thing, it kinda looses its mojo after a while. Games cost an arm and a leg and I can't even use it to play back a simple DVD or use the SD card for Divx playback.
While I'm sure Apple will not fall into that trend, it's an interesting analogy
They need to build infrastructure and develop a worldwide supply chain network dedicated to the iphone, and not just piggy-back on an existing ipod network that is probably already capacity-constrained.
I think its more of a construction hold back rather than distribution. The iPod worldwide channel is more than mature enough afaik. Worse comes to worse they can very easily work with any mobile phone distributor. Just about every country has a few well established mobile phone distributors.
Zo, I would say to you 'stop drinking the feature koolaid'. While I haven't had a 'smartphone' prior to the iPhone I have had a large number of PDA from the newton to the palm. And I can easily say that I never used those because of the difficulty in using them. I do use the iPhone, all of the function, constantly. I had given up buying PDA like devices because, while I could use them they were more trouble than they were worth.
I watched my friend, who just bought a brand new, top end blackberry, and he tried to show me a photo - this took almost 5 minutes of fumbling around. This is after about 2 months of using the phone. Yes, I know the balckberry is not a nokia, but if I described something about a nokia i'd get '...but a blackberry..'. I know the feature lists are not on par.
As far as 'extortion', the use of these pejorative terms, 'extortion', 'monopoly', etc. in these discussions is ridiculous. This is a purchase of a luxury device from a minority player in the mobile market. None of these terms apply in any way, shape, or form.
Hold on hold on.. I never said that the present day iPhone sucks or what not. Its fantastic. BUT. But there is MORE it can do.
Hell, Apple itself just said that they approximate 250k users (of 1.2mil) are hacking their iPhones. Or unlocking them. Or both.
I'd say that gives a pretty damn strong signal.
Otherwise, back on topic, a phone that costs 399euro (with carrier) and suddenly costs 750euro unlocked is unheard of in Europe.
Not that it really matters. Anyone who REALLY wants an unlocked iPhone in Europe is already ordering them directly from the USA, unlocked, for less than 399euros. I've come across a dozen websites that offer them.
Lets see...
Apple wants to sell them in Europe for 399eur (568usd)
That means Apple will make about 40% MORE on the SAME handset just keeping the Euro/Dollar at same numbers
TODAY: "Savvy" users are buying directly from the USA at 399usd (=279euros), or about 40% less
Apple is already losing (or has already lost) the people who will buy the full priced unlocked iPhone.
They are ALSO losing the early adopters who might switch or buy the locked, normal iPhone.
Otherwise, back on topic, a phone that costs 399euro (with carrier) and suddenly costs 750euro unlocked is unheard of in Europe.
Not exactly, Nokia's high end business phones (Communicator series) have reached those prices before, and though cheaper, the N95 isn't that far.
Not that it really matters. Anyone who REALLY wants an unlocked iPhone in Europe is already ordering them directly from the USA, unlocked, for less than 399euros. I've come across a dozen websites that offer them.
Lets see...
Apple wants to sell them in Europe for 399eur (568usd)
That means Apple will make about 40% MORE on the SAME handset just keeping the Euro/Dollar at same numbers
TODAY: "Savvy" users are buying directly from the USA at 399usd (=279euros), or about 40% less
Apple is already losing (or has already lost) the people who will buy the full priced unlocked iPhone.
They are ALSO losing the early adopters who might switch or buy the locked, normal iPhone.
Do remember that after European VAT the price should be only a little less in Euros, -10% or so. Customs duties should not make a difference, the phones need to be imported into the US as well. As for the AT&T bound phone, there's a whole lot of people are too timid to hack the locked phone or not willing to sweat over every software upgrade and find out if it's going to do something negative to a hacked phone.
The phone still costs way too much for what it does. Combine with poor brand recognition, and it's not in a good position.
I wouldn't be surprised if an improved hardware version in spring came in at 600?. That could actually sell in the EU market.
Customs duties should not make a difference, the phones need to be imported into the US as well.
What makes you think that those expenses would be the same for both regions? Just because both may charge duties doesn't mean that the duties will be the same.
NYC is, what, 7,8,9%
The N95 has a feature list that runs laps around the iPhone: GPS, full sized movie taking at 30fps, 5mpix Carl Zeiss camera, 3G, WiFi, etc etc.
There is seriously NO other phone/smart phone on the European market that can be comparable spec wise.. unless you look at catalogs from 2-3 years ago.
What makes you think that those expenses would be the same for both regions? Just because both may charge duties doesn't mean that the duties will be the same.
I have paid about 5% for stuff I have imported. There's no way the US duties differ from that with more than a couple percentage points, so the customs duty will not explain any notable (say 10% and up) difference in the product's price like the ~20% EU VAT does. (To be exact, the VAT is per country and the upper limit for it is 22%. 18%-22% is normal for electronics.)
That story makes the iphone sound like a Nintendo Wii... Very cool looking. Extremely gentle learning curve. Adults are intrigued by it, kids are amazed by it. Found a profitable niche among tough competitors in a savage industry. Thats where the similarities end for now... A year later, nobody cares about the Wii. The games are elementary, and the graphics are circa 1999. All but children have kicked it to the curb. Hardcore gamers wouldn't touch it. Sales of XBOX 360s have surpassed Wii sales again, and PS3s are gaining momentum with time.
What?
Do you have any information that's newer than 1 month? Cumulative global Wii sales exceeded that of 360 as of last month. This is despite a later introduction. I think Wii had one of the fastest up-take rates in consoles in some time.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/51df0c84-6...nclick_check=1
bg_nyc... thats a FANTASTIC analogy. I have a Wii as well and indeed, while new users love the thing, it kinda looses its mojo after a while. Games cost an arm and a leg and I can't even use it to play back a simple DVD or use the SD card for Divx playback.
They probably would have had to charge maybe $50 more to play DVDs. Sure, you can get DVD players for less than that, but they are actually scofflaws that aren't paying the $20 license fee to make a legal DVD-Video player. Nintendo can't avoid that in the same way.
France VAT is about 20%... and in Europe the advertised price is always final price, the taxes are already included.
NYC is, what, 7,8,9%
The N95 has a feature list that runs laps around the iPhone: GPS, full sized movie taking at 30fps, 5mpix Carl Zeiss camera, 3G, WiFi, etc etc.
There is seriously NO other phone/smart phone on the European market that can be comparable spec wise.. unless you look at catalogs from 2-3 years ago.
The EU has 466 million cellular phone customers and the N95 has sold about 1.5 million units since March.
The iPhone has sold about the same number of phones to 233 million US cell phone customers since June.
I'm thinking your idea of what a feature list looks like as it laps another product might be due for a revision.
I have paid about 5% for stuff I have imported. There's no way the US duties differ from that with more than a couple percentage points, so the customs duty will not explain any notable (say 10% and up) difference in the product's price like the ~20% EU VAT does. (To be exact, the VAT is per country and the upper limit for it is 22%. 18%-22% is normal for electronics.)
OK, I didn't know it was that low for you. I've yet to be charged duties, I don't know what they are.
The EU has 466 million cellular phone customers and the N95 has sold about 1.5 million units since March.
The iPhone has sold about the same number of phones to 233 million US cell phone customers since June.
I'm thinking your idea of what a feature list looks like as it laps another product might be due for a revision.
I know introducing some reality to a true believer in the Jesus Phone is asking for trouble but the N95 has sold more than that. It sold 1.5 million in it's first full quarter (Q2)...
http://www.nokia.com/A4136001?newsid=1143589
Sales of it's multimedia phones (ie. N series) grew 23% in Q3 and they added the 8GB versions of the N95 and N81. They didn't break it down by model but, let's say they shipped another 1.85 million N95s last quarter. (previous 1.5 million + 23%)
In Q1 they again don't break out the numbers but lets guess about 500,000 N95 since it shipped mid quarter in March.
So, I make that about 3.85 million N95s alone and it's only one of Nokia's N series and E series smartphone range that all are more feature rich than the iPhone. And then you've SE's W series and P series phones and to some extent the HTC and blackberrys.
Taskiss, I'm not surprised you think the iPhone is so good and it's doing so well in America. To paraphrase someone else, it's like giving "ice water to people in hell". The market here is very different to the USA.
ZO is spot on about the walled garden. It may seem like Apple are fighting the carriers in the USA but the deals they've done with carriers in Europe are just unheard of here and both restrictive and expensive. To us it looks like Apple is gouging the carriers who in turn are gouging subscribers.
We use the N95 as an example in these debates as it's broadly comparable and the current consumer multimedia smartphone sitting in the top spot in Europe. It's what Apple is aiming at. It's comparably priced unlocked to the rumoured iPhone price here and in Apple's results they said they were recognising about $100 per quarter for the iPhone making it $800 over the 2 year accounting period. Yet, despite similar unlocked prices, the N95 is available for free on the kinds of locked in contracts Apple (and O2, T-mobile and Orange) are asking. There's a big premium on the iPhone for hardware that's beautiful to look at but technically weak and software that's great at what it does but does so little.
I'm sure it'll still sell by the truck load but then so did the LG Chocolate and the Razr and those were shit. The N95 sells by the truck load and IMHO it's shit too - typical Nokia bulky crap with an overly complex interface.
What we're looking for in Europe is the feature set of the N95 done Apple style.
I know introducing some reality to a true believer in the Jesus Phone is asking for trouble but the N95 has sold more than that. It sold 1.5 million in it's first full quarter (Q2)...
http://www.nokia.com/A4136001?newsid=1143589
Sales of it's multimedia phones (ie. N series) grew 23% in Q3 and they added the 8GB versions of the N95 and N81. They didn't break it down by model but, let's say they shipped another 1.85 million N95s last quarter. (previous 1.5 million + 23%)
In Q1 they again don't break out the numbers but lets guess about 500,000 N95 since it shipped mid quarter in March.
So, I make that about 3.85 million N95s alone and it's only one of Nokia's N series and E series smartphone range that all are more feature rich than the iPhone. And then you've SE's W series and P series phones and to some extent the HTC and blackberrys.
N95 sold 1.5 M by the end of it's first full quarter and iPhone sold just about 1.5 M by the end of it's full quarter... and the N95 was released in a market twice the size as the one the iPhone was released in... I'm thinking you're beating the drum pretty loudly in order to keep people from seeing what you've written here, buddy. Perhaps YOU need to read what you've written, in fact, since it doesn't support the argument you seem to be wanting to make. Sucks to be you, I guess.
Taskiss, I'm not surprised you think the iPhone is so good and it's doing so well in America. To paraphrase someone else, it's like giving "ice water to people in hell". The market here is very different to the USA.
The N95 is available in the USA, so I'm not sure what your point is here...perhaps you want to re-read that, too.
ZO is spot on about the walled garden. It may seem like Apple are fighting the carriers in the USA but the deals they've done with carriers in Europe are just unheard of here and both restrictive and expensive. To us it looks like Apple is gouging the carriers who in turn are gouging subscribers.
We use the N95 as an example in these debates as it's broadly comparable and the current consumer multimedia smartphone sitting in the top spot in Europe. It's what Apple is aiming at. It's comparably priced unlocked to the rumoured iPhone price here and in Apple's results they said they were recognising about $100 per quarter for the iPhone making it $800 over the 2 year accounting period. Yet, despite similar unlocked prices, the N95 is available for free on the kinds of locked in contracts Apple (and O2, T-mobile and Orange) are asking. There's a big premium on the iPhone for hardware that's beautiful to look at but technically weak and software that's great at what it does but does so little.
I'm sure it'll still sell by the truck load but then so did the LG Chocolate and the Razr and those were shit. The N95 sells by the truck load and IMHO it's shit too - typical Nokia bulky crap with an overly complex interface.
What we're looking for in Europe is the feature set of the N95 done Apple style.
"I'm sure it'll still sell by the truck load..."
You need to "speak out of only one side of your mouth". Compare "apples to apples", so to speak. Either that or fly to the US and buy a vowel from Vana or whatever. The iPhone isn't going to save the world. It's going to expand on the dominance Apple has in the personal media player market by allowing people to make calls on their iPod. It'll only take up one pocket to carry the tech people want to carry. It's not the end-all and be-all you insist it must be to be relevant and the sales volumes and customer survey results all point to you being totally out of line in your vision of what the device is and should be.
It's a very nice video iPod that I can use to make phone calls with, it's got features that are easy to use, an interface that's an order of magnitude better than any other comparable device, and in addition it allows me to browse the web, get my e-mail, and when I'm finished doing that it slips into my pocket without making me look like I'm very glad to meetcha.
Get a grip and smell the coffee. Don't project your phobia on me... just 'cause you feel you can't be wrong so everyone else must be, ... man, that's your dysfunction, not mine. When it comes to consumer electronics there's more than one right answer.
I didn't even own an iPod before this. All I want to carry is one piece of tech on me and if that tech gets me what the iPhone gets me, it's all good. If it didn't I wouldn't have gotten it. AND - that very same attitude is what Apple's product delivers on. So, when you go off and beat your drum like you do, don't be surprised when someone defends a product that they thoroughly enjoy owning.
In the end, I'm obviously better served by the product than you are. I like using it. It works for me. My "claim to fame" is based on how satisfied I am with it, and your "claim to fame" is how dissatisfied you are with it. It's logical that I defend something that I enjoy, and it speaks to who you are that you feel the need to advertise your dissatisfaction.
N95 sold 1.5 M by the end of it's first full quarter and iPhone sold just about 1.5 M by the end of it's full quarter
I'll explain again...
The N95 sold 1.5 million in just it's SECOND quarter (Nokia's figures) which was it's first FULL quarter, not it's first quarter. It was released midway through Q1. There are no figures for that quarter but I extrapolated 500,000 from the Multimedia divisions sales figures. It's also had an entire third quarter where sales increased 23%. Please read more carefully. That's nearly three quarters since March. It's not 1.5 million since March as you stated. That was just Q2.
500,000 in Q1 +
1.5M in Q2 +
1.85M in Q3
= 3.85M in 7 months.
Apple have sold 1.39 million iPhones (source: Apple) to date. (4 months)