Talk about odd... what part of my sentence "N95 sold 1.5 M by the end of it's first full quarter..." did you not understand to the point where you had to reply "...which was it's first FULL quarter..."? I said it was the first full quarter...didn't you catch that? And as for your extrapolations, well, let's stick to the facts, OK? Let's compare exactly what we can absolutely compare. The only numbers Nokia has made available for N95 sales figures are the ones I posted. Educated guesses are still guesses, and I'm thinking if you had more than guesses you'd have posted it.
What we can absolutely quantify is the reported first full quarter (Q2) of Nokia's N95 sales and the reported first full quarter (Q3) sales of Apple's iPhone.
The market for the N95 was about 700 million and they sold 1.5 million.
The market for the iPhone was about 233 million and they sold 1.1 million.
Do you have any information that's newer than 1 month? Cumulative global Wii sales exceeded that of 360 as of last month. This is despite a later introduction. I think Wii had one of the fastest up-take rates in consoles in some time.
Guess I was referring to outdated information... During the early summer 360 had overtaken the 360, but looks like Wii has taken it back. But these are estimates, correct? As of August 23rd, the estimates were that the Wii had sold 10.57 units and the 360 10.51MM units. Thats a difference of less than 1%. So as far as i'm concerned, thats not a statistically significant difference. But i'd like to see some post-Halo3 360 numbers... they may tell a different story.
But the point is that the Wii sold like crazy, but the people that I know who have one don't play it anymore. It can't compare with the features of the competition. Dont take this analogy and run with it because i'm not saying the iphone is like the Wii. Its just an illustrative example that products that are oversimplified compared to the competition will experience less sustained sales growth.
The N95 sells by the truck load and IMHO it's shit too - typical Nokia bulky crap with an overly complex interface.
If you really feel the Nokia phones are crap, what is wrong with Apple changing the way phones are done. Instead of releasing multiple different phones with multiple differing functions. One phone with an easy to use interface that is updated with new functions through software. What is the problem with that?
Quote:
I'm sure it'll still sell by the truck load but then so did the LG Chocolate and the Razr and those were shit.
You guys in Europe are confusing me. You say Europe has such sophisticated taste. Then say the best selling phones are crappy. Then say the iPhone is gouging customers in a way they won't accept. Then say it will still sell well. This all sounds like a lot of contradiction.
Also the N95 sold 1.5 million units in its first full quarter in a market twice as large as the US, across multiple mobile carriers, across multiple countries.
The iPhone sold 1.1 million units in its first full quarter in a market half the size of Europe, on one mobile carrier, in one country.
Of the potential 700 million mobile phone users in Europe, 500 million in North America, 200 million in Japan and South Korea. Apple has only projected to sell 10 million iPhones through 2008. I would call that a very humble projection.
Also the N95 sold 1.5 million units in its first full quarter in a market twice as large as the US, across multiple mobile carriers, across multiple countries.
The N95's first full quarter included the US. It went on sale here on April 7th, 2007. It was available to about 3 times as many cell phone customers as the iPhone was.
There are 466 million cell customers in the EU and 233 million in the US, according to cia.gov
Talk about odd... what part of my sentence "N95 sold 1.5 M by the end of it's first full quarter..." did you not understand to the point where you had to reply "...which was it's first FULL quarter..."? I said it was the first full quarter...didn't you catch that?
Third time lucky perhaps.
The N95's first full quarter was not it's first quarter. It did not sell 1.5 million by the end of it's first full quarter. It sold 1.5 million IN it's first full quarter. Add to that it's first quarter, and it's third quarter.
You stated "The EU has 466 million cellular phone customers and the N95 has sold about 1.5 million units since March." which is only true if Nokia sold no N95s in Q1 and none in Q3. And you're wrong about the 466 million. In 2005 the GSM association reckoned there were 585 million phone subscriptions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss
And as for your extrapolations, well, let's stick to the facts, OK? Let's compare exactly what we can absolutely compare. The only numbers Nokia has made available for N95 sales figures are the ones I posted. Educated guesses are still guesses, and I'm thinking if you had more than guesses you'd have posted it.
Nokia doesn't break out it's figures by each model it sells except for in Q2 where they stated in their financial statement that they'd sold 1.5 million N95 phones in that quarter. That's the figure you quoted but you mistakenly attributed it to entire sales to date, which is wrong.
I extrapolated from Q2 that they'd sold about a third as many in the previous incomplete quarter and that their 23% more sales in Q3 with no new models other than 8GB versions of their N95 and N81 that increasing from 1.5 million by 23% was a reasonable assumption. Of course, it's entirely possible that N95 sales tanked or that they sky rocketed - we've no firm figures.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss
What we can absolutely quantify is the reported first full quarter (Q2) of Nokia's N95 sales and the reported first full quarter (Q3) sales of Apple's iPhone.
Yes, 1.5m N95 v 1.1m iPhone. But that wasn't your original assertion that the iPhone had sold about as many as the N95 had since March.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss
The market for the N95 was about 700 million and they sold 1.5 million.
The market for the iPhone was about 233 million and they sold 1.1 million.
Do THAT math.
It helps when using maths as an argument that you start with the right figures.
The market for smartphones isn't the entire population but I'll play along. 700 million is the current estimate for Europe. The USA has a current population of 303 million (not 233 million)[1]. Apple says they sold 1.39 million iPhones in 4 months and I put N95 at 3.85 million in 7 months.
So,
Nokia have sold on average 17,741 N95s a day.
Apple have sold on average 11,209 iPhones a day.
BUT, Europe is a bigger market, 2 and a third times bigger, so yes, you're right, they should have been selling 26,000 N95s a day. Slackers.
BUT that's far too simplistic a model as the market for an expensive smartphone isn't 100% of the population - not by far. Europe is a much more diverse continent than the USA. There's quite some difference between the UK and Slovakia.
All of which wasn't my point, it was just that your "1.5 million since March" figure was wrong.
All of which wasn't my point, it was just that your "1.5 million since March" figure was wrong.
Ah, but it's not wrong. It's the only accurate sales figure available for the device since it's introduction.
All of which wasn't my point either, but hey, you run with what you got. You know, you offer no slack to anybody, accuse people of not understanding, not reading, etc, and then expect them to take it when you need the slack to make your point.
Do you really expect people to let you get away with that? Does it EVER work out for you?
Ah, but it's not wrong. It's the only accurate sales figure available for the device since it's introduction.
All of which wasn't my point either, but hey, you run with what you got. You know, you offer no slack to anybody, accuse people of not understanding, not reading, etc, and then expect them to take it when you need the slack to make your point.
Do you really expect people to let you get away with that? Does it EVER work out for you?
FOURTH TIME.
YOU ARE WRONG.
Nokia sold 1.5 million N95 in Q2 - That's 3 months from April to June. It's in their financial figures at http://www.nokia.com/A4162334
They have NOT sold 1.5 million since March. That figure is not available. The 1.5 million figure is just Q2. 3 months out of 7.
There's no grey area here. No slack needed at all. It's hard figures in a financial report. Read it.
Aegis is right Taskiss. Nokia has certainly sold more N95's since June. The most we can say is that the number of sales from that point to now is likely nothing to brag about.
The most we can say is that the number of sales from that point to now is likely nothing to brag about.
I'm not sure it was an argument that made sense. OK, so both devices sold pretty well. It really doesn't address whether or not iPhone will sell well in Europe, so the time spent trying to get the most accurate figures seems pointless. iPhone certainly doesn't need to "wipe the floor" with any of its competitors to be a success. We're probably all very well aware of the benefits and drawbacks of iPhone vs. its competitors, now it's up to the market to decide what they want based on what they are offered.
Nokia sold 1.5 million N95 in Q2 - That's 3 months from April to June. It's in their financial figures at http://www.nokia.com/A4162334
They have NOT sold 1.5 million since March. That figure is not available. The 1.5 million figure is just Q2. 3 months out of 7.
There's no grey area here. No slack needed at all. It's hard figures in a financial report. Read it.
Instead just saying 'you're wrong' why not put up the right figure. It seems the comparison is trying to be made between either.
1) from start of sales through the first full quarter
iPhone - 1.39 million
Nokia - 1.5 million + pre partial quarter sales whatever they were. If they were significant they should be in the previous financial report. If they're not there they're likely insignificant for purposes of this (very long) discussion.
2) First full quarter sales
iPhone - 1.12 million
Nokia - 1.5 million
The bottom line is the iPhone sales are impressive by levels set by Nokia.
Instead just saying 'you're wrong' why not put up the right figure. It seems the comparison is trying to be made between either.
Because I can't because Nokia do not break out per-model numbers. The exception being Q2 where they quoted 1.5 million for the N95 in particular. They didn't do so for any other model they sell in Q2 and they must sell at least 100 different models.
Taskiss was claiming the 1.5 million figure was for the entire time since March, which is wrong. That's what I took issue with, with actual facts, which he's continued to ignore.
Nokia's Multimedia division, which is the division that produces the N series, had revenue of 2.5 billion Euro (3.6 billion USD) last quarter out of about 13 billion Euro (18.5 billion USD) revenue for the whole of Nokia. Apple managed 880 million USD if you take the $800 for each iPhone they're recognising over 2 years and just stick it in the last quarter. Apple had revenue of 6.2 billion last quarter (ie. about a third of Nokia).
It's fantastic results for Apple but in context I'm sure Nokia aren't really so bothered when they're selling 112 million handsets a quarter.
As I said, injecting reality into the RDF is dangerous, but that's the hard facts.
I suppose the other headline figure to work out is that Apple sold almost exactly 1% of Nokia's handset sales last quarter. Nokia reckon they own 39% of the market in their last financial statement so Apple's market share is currently 0.39%.
They've still some way to go to capture that 1% of the market Jobs stood on stage and predicted. Can they do 0.61% in Europe and Asia ?
Because I can't because Nokia do not break out per-model numbers. The exception being Q2 where they quoted 1.5 million for the N95 in particular. They didn't do so for any other model they sell in Q2 and they must sell at least 100 different models.
Taskiss was claiming the 1.5 million figure was for the entire time since March, which is wrong. That's what I took issue with, with actual facts, which he's continued to ignore.
Nokia's Multimedia division, which is the division that produces the N series, had revenue of 2.5 billion Euro (3.6 billion USD) last quarter out of about 13 billion Euro (18.5 billion USD) revenue for the whole of Nokia. Apple managed 880 million USD if you take the $800 for each iPhone they're recognising over 2 years and just stick it in the last quarter. Apple had revenue of 6.2 billion last quarter (ie. about a third of Nokia).
It's fantastic results for Apple but in context I'm sure Nokia aren't really so bothered when they're selling 112 million handsets a quarter.
As I said, injecting reality into the RDF is dangerous, but that's the hard facts.
No really, what really dangerous is going up against the Anti RDF brigade
If Nokia broke it out in Q2 and didn't in Q1 than they were likely insignificant in Q1. In any case the conclusion holds based solely on the 1st full quarter sales - Apple's sales of iPhone are great, even by supposed Nokia standards.
In another thread discussing the 'new' nokia touch interface there is the same contradictory type of statement as was pointed out earlier in this thread.
This thread
European will only but a better class of phone
Razr/LG is crap
Razr/LG are great selling phones
The other thread (Nokia Killer)
Nokia could care less about iPhone
Nokia will pre-announce an unfinished phone in Nov to disrupt iPhone introduction
Either they care about it or they don't. They either will or won't buy these types of phones. There certainly seems to be an equivalent RDF around European expectation and demands.
Personally, from my European coworkers that I've shown the iPhone to they instantly want to get one.
I'm not sure it was an argument that made sense. OK, so both devices sold pretty well. It really doesn't address whether or not iPhone will sell well in Europe,
I see your point and agree. The value I can see in the comparison is that the Europeans on this list hold the N95 as being superior to the iPhone and declare that Europe will accept nothing less. When you look at the sales in proportion to the market. The iPhone has sold better than the N95.
I agree this does not directly tell how well the iPhone will do in Europe, I think it does give insight that most of Europe was not as infatuated with the N95 as those here lead us to believe.
iPhone is heading into Europe with high expectations and momentum. If the N95 had sold more in Europe than the iPhone had sold in the US during the same quarters, I believe Nokia would have allowed it to be known.
Quote:
They've still some way to go to capture that 1% of the market Jobs stood on stage and predicted. Can they do 0.61% in Europe and Asia ?
I would wager most of those 250,000 unlocked phones went to other countries where the iPhone is not yet available. I think to some degree Apple does not mind as it begins to build enthusiam for when the phone is official launched.
Having gained .39% in one market with one mobile carrier. It should be no problem to grow at least another .61% with over a billion potential customers yet to be served.
In another thread discussing the 'new' nokia touch interface there is the same contradictory type of statement as was pointed out earlier in this thread.
This thread
European will only but a better class of phone
Razr/LG is crap
Razr/LG are great selling phones
The other thread (Nokia Killer)
Nokia could care less about iPhone
Nokia will pre-announce an unfinished phone in Nov to disrupt iPhone introduction
Either they care about it or they don't. They either will or won't buy these types of phones. There certainly seems to be an equivalent RDF around European expectation and demands.
Personally, from my European coworkers that I've shown the iPhone to they instantly want to get one.
There's nothing contradictory above. The Razr and LG phones are crap. They still sold a load of them here in Europe because of their looks, but their time has passed and they don't sell well now. They aren't in the top ten phones sold now. Moto launched the Razr2 here a month or so ago. That's not showing on the charts yet and I'm not sure it will. In general flip phones aren't as popular as candybars in Europe except in younger age groups.
Nokia quite probably aren't bothered about Apple now. Let's see what Apple can do after their 1.0 products. Touchscreen phones though are the new fashion item it seems. It would be daft for Nokia to not dip a toe in that ocean at least. They refused for a long time to make flip phones for America and have suffered because of it.
I was going to instantly get an iPhone too on November 9th, despite the high cost, despite the limitations. However what they've done with closing off 3rd party apps and bricking unlocked phones left a bad taste so I'm waiting till the SDK is out and they've announced how they are handling 3rd party apps. Some of the things the 3rd party apps did I needed (like ssh) so it'd be pointless me buying one until that is back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy
I see your point and agree. The value I can see in the comparison is that the Europeans on this list hold the N95 as being superior to the iPhone and declare that Europe will accept nothing less. When you look at the sales in proportion to the market. The iPhone has sold better than the N95.
It's only superior on a feature comparison basis and we use it as an example of what a top end phone is like in Europe. On a feature comparison is way, way more advanced. We could also use the P1i or N81. There are quite a few other phones with just slightly lesser specs than the N95 but more than the iPhone, but those are also cheaper. The iPhone is more expensive than the N95. Not everyone buys on a feature checklist or price of course as Apple knows.
However, I think there's a big disconnect here. Apple are missing features we consider basic in Europe. I could put up with the lack of MMS, lack of video, lack of 3G, lack of decent camera - just for the UI - but I can't imagine many other people will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy
I agree this does not directly tell how well the iPhone will do in Europe, I think it does give insight that most of Europe was not as infatuated with the N95 as those here lead us to believe.
I don't think anyone has said we're infatuated with the N95. Most will tell you it's an oversized brick of a phone with poor software, crappy build quality and poor battery life. Still, it's the cutting edge currently here. That's what Apple are up against, amongst others, including the superb Walkman phones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy
iPhone is heading into Europe with high expectations and momentum. If the N95 had sold more in Europe than the iPhone had sold in the US during the same quarters, I believe Nokia would have allowed it to be known.
Come on, Apple didn't break out it's iPod numbers by model when the Zune came out. Companies just don't release that info in general in otherwise dry financials.
I agree this does not directly tell how well the iPhone will do in Europe, I think it does give insight that most of Europe was not as infatuated with the N95 as those here lead us to believe.
Well, if you look at current Nokia products, they list 87 different phone models in Europe. 38 of those are 3G smartphones. They aren't trying to get everyone to buy a N95.
Spec-wise maybe the closest Nokia has to iPhone right now is the N91 music phone. The 4GB version was launched Q2 2006, 8GB version followed it. From a quick look to German net stores, they can be had for about 300-400?.
For a N95-level feature set but a whole lot less teh ugly, the N82 is rumored to be out shortly.
Aegis is right Taskiss. Nokia has certainly sold more N95's since June. The most we can say is that the number of sales from that point to now is likely nothing to brag about.
"The most we can say" about this subject should be limited to verifiable evidence, TenoBell. I did narrow the window to a single quarter but I can't accept making up numbers to support my position. I can discuss things when facts and opinions are involved, but if you claim certain numbers you should have facts, not opinions.
Sort of like the Piper Jaffray claim that 45 million iPhones will be sold in calendar year 2009. 3.75 million iPhones a month! sheesh! How long do you think I'd go unchallenged were I to base any position in any discussion on that wild guess? I'm thinking not too long...
The N95 was offered by another poster as the device with a feature list that "runs circles around the iPhone" (I believe that's how it was described), and it was claimed that EU sophistication demanded such features to capture market share. That's why the discussion shifted in that direction.
There's nothing contradictory above. The Razr and LG phones are crap. They still sold a load of them here in Europe because of their looks, but their time has passed and they don't sell well now. They aren't in the top ten phones sold now. Moto launched the Razr2 here a month or so ago. That's not showing on the charts yet and I'm not sure it will. In general flip phones aren't as popular as candybars in Europe except in younger age groups.
Nokia quite probably aren't bothered about Apple now. Let's see what Apple can do after their 1.0 products. Touchscreen phones though are the new fashion item it seems. It would be daft for Nokia to not dip a toe in that ocean at least. They refused for a long time to make flip phones for America and have suffered because of it.
I was going to instantly get an iPhone too on November 9th, despite the high cost, despite the limitations. However what they've done with closing off 3rd party apps and bricking unlocked phones left a bad taste so I'm waiting till the SDK is out and they've announced how they are handling 3rd party apps. Some of the things the 3rd party apps did I needed (like ssh) so it'd be pointless me buying one until that is back.
It's only superior on a feature comparison basis and we use it as an example of what a top end phone is like in Europe. On a feature comparison is way, way more advanced. We could also use the P1i or N81. There are quite a few other phones with just slightly lesser specs than the N95 but more than the iPhone, but those are also cheaper. The iPhone is more expensive than the N95. Not everyone buys on a feature checklist or price of course as Apple knows.
However, I think there's a big disconnect here. Apple are missing features we consider basic in Europe. I could put up with the lack of MMS, lack of video, lack of 3G, lack of decent camera - just for the UI - but I can't imagine many other people will.
I don't think anyone has said we're infatuated with the N95. Most will tell you it's an oversized brick of a phone with poor software, crappy build quality and poor battery life. Still, it's the cutting edge currently here. That's what Apple are up against, amongst others, including the superb Walkman phones.
Come on, Apple didn't break out it's iPod numbers by model when the Zune came out. Companies just don't release that info in general in otherwise dry financials.
Aegis,
First, please be careful with your quotes. I believe that only the first quote is mine.
Second, it IS highly contradictory to claim something is 'crap' and then say that it sold boatloads. If there was only 1 product, that would be fine but I think we can all agree that there are choices in the mobile phone market so CRAP shouldn't sell. That is, unless, the definition of CRAP is just someone's opinion, and not the markets. What's really contradictory are the claims here that Europeans DEMAND all these features and WILL NOT BUY without them, and yet, in any number of cases quoted, best selling phones in Europe don't meeting these requirements. As I said, there seems to be a whole new RDF around European requirements.
I don't think so. McDonald's Big Mac, anyone? A more applicable example, maybe a RAZR?
No, the Big Mac is 'crap' to only a portion of the population and if my experience is anything, a good number of that segment sneaks one in now and then From a business perspective a Big Mac is anything but 'crap' and that's what I thought we were talking about here - will the iPhone sell, in Europe, elsewhere, etc. Does is meet a market need, and a significant one, at that.
Comments
What we can absolutely quantify is the reported first full quarter (Q2) of Nokia's N95 sales and the reported first full quarter (Q3) sales of Apple's iPhone.
The market for the N95 was about 700 million and they sold 1.5 million.
The market for the iPhone was about 233 million and they sold 1.1 million.
Do THAT math.
What?
Do you have any information that's newer than 1 month? Cumulative global Wii sales exceeded that of 360 as of last month. This is despite a later introduction. I think Wii had one of the fastest up-take rates in consoles in some time.
Guess I was referring to outdated information... During the early summer 360 had overtaken the 360, but looks like Wii has taken it back. But these are estimates, correct? As of August 23rd, the estimates were that the Wii had sold 10.57 units and the 360 10.51MM units. Thats a difference of less than 1%. So as far as i'm concerned, thats not a statistically significant difference. But i'd like to see some post-Halo3 360 numbers... they may tell a different story.
But the point is that the Wii sold like crazy, but the people that I know who have one don't play it anymore. It can't compare with the features of the competition. Dont take this analogy and run with it because i'm not saying the iphone is like the Wii. Its just an illustrative example that products that are oversimplified compared to the competition will experience less sustained sales growth.
The N95 sells by the truck load and IMHO it's shit too - typical Nokia bulky crap with an overly complex interface.
If you really feel the Nokia phones are crap, what is wrong with Apple changing the way phones are done. Instead of releasing multiple different phones with multiple differing functions. One phone with an easy to use interface that is updated with new functions through software. What is the problem with that?
I'm sure it'll still sell by the truck load but then so did the LG Chocolate and the Razr and those were shit.
You guys in Europe are confusing me. You say Europe has such sophisticated taste. Then say the best selling phones are crappy. Then say the iPhone is gouging customers in a way they won't accept. Then say it will still sell well. This all sounds like a lot of contradiction.
Also the N95 sold 1.5 million units in its first full quarter in a market twice as large as the US, across multiple mobile carriers, across multiple countries.
The iPhone sold 1.1 million units in its first full quarter in a market half the size of Europe, on one mobile carrier, in one country.
Of the potential 700 million mobile phone users in Europe, 500 million in North America, 200 million in Japan and South Korea. Apple has only projected to sell 10 million iPhones through 2008. I would call that a very humble projection.
Also the N95 sold 1.5 million units in its first full quarter in a market twice as large as the US, across multiple mobile carriers, across multiple countries.
The N95's first full quarter included the US. It went on sale here on April 7th, 2007. It was available to about 3 times as many cell phone customers as the iPhone was.
There are 466 million cell customers in the EU and 233 million in the US, according to cia.gov
Talk about odd... what part of my sentence "N95 sold 1.5 M by the end of it's first full quarter..." did you not understand to the point where you had to reply "...which was it's first FULL quarter..."? I said it was the first full quarter...didn't you catch that?
Third time lucky perhaps.
The N95's first full quarter was not it's first quarter. It did not sell 1.5 million by the end of it's first full quarter. It sold 1.5 million IN it's first full quarter. Add to that it's first quarter, and it's third quarter.
You stated "The EU has 466 million cellular phone customers and the N95 has sold about 1.5 million units since March." which is only true if Nokia sold no N95s in Q1 and none in Q3. And you're wrong about the 466 million. In 2005 the GSM association reckoned there were 585 million phone subscriptions.
And as for your extrapolations, well, let's stick to the facts, OK? Let's compare exactly what we can absolutely compare. The only numbers Nokia has made available for N95 sales figures are the ones I posted. Educated guesses are still guesses, and I'm thinking if you had more than guesses you'd have posted it.
Nokia doesn't break out it's figures by each model it sells except for in Q2 where they stated in their financial statement that they'd sold 1.5 million N95 phones in that quarter. That's the figure you quoted but you mistakenly attributed it to entire sales to date, which is wrong.
I extrapolated from Q2 that they'd sold about a third as many in the previous incomplete quarter and that their 23% more sales in Q3 with no new models other than 8GB versions of their N95 and N81 that increasing from 1.5 million by 23% was a reasonable assumption. Of course, it's entirely possible that N95 sales tanked or that they sky rocketed - we've no firm figures.
What we can absolutely quantify is the reported first full quarter (Q2) of Nokia's N95 sales and the reported first full quarter (Q3) sales of Apple's iPhone.
Yes, 1.5m N95 v 1.1m iPhone. But that wasn't your original assertion that the iPhone had sold about as many as the N95 had since March.
The market for the N95 was about 700 million and they sold 1.5 million.
The market for the iPhone was about 233 million and they sold 1.1 million.
Do THAT math.
It helps when using maths as an argument that you start with the right figures.
The market for smartphones isn't the entire population but I'll play along. 700 million is the current estimate for Europe. The USA has a current population of 303 million (not 233 million)[1]. Apple says they sold 1.39 million iPhones in 4 months and I put N95 at 3.85 million in 7 months.
So,
Nokia have sold on average 17,741 N95s a day.
Apple have sold on average 11,209 iPhones a day.
BUT, Europe is a bigger market, 2 and a third times bigger, so yes, you're right, they should have been selling 26,000 N95s a day. Slackers.
BUT that's far too simplistic a model as the market for an expensive smartphone isn't 100% of the population - not by far. Europe is a much more diverse continent than the USA. There's quite some difference between the UK and Slovakia.
All of which wasn't my point, it was just that your "1.5 million since March" figure was wrong.
[1] http://www.census.gov/population/www/popclockus.html
[2] http://www.gsmworld.com/gsmeurope/news/facts.shtml
All of which wasn't my point, it was just that your "1.5 million since March" figure was wrong.
Ah, but it's not wrong. It's the only accurate sales figure available for the device since it's introduction.
All of which wasn't my point either, but hey, you run with what you got. You know, you offer no slack to anybody, accuse people of not understanding, not reading, etc, and then expect them to take it when you need the slack to make your point.
Do you really expect people to let you get away with that? Does it EVER work out for you?
Ah, but it's not wrong. It's the only accurate sales figure available for the device since it's introduction.
All of which wasn't my point either, but hey, you run with what you got. You know, you offer no slack to anybody, accuse people of not understanding, not reading, etc, and then expect them to take it when you need the slack to make your point.
Do you really expect people to let you get away with that? Does it EVER work out for you?
FOURTH TIME.
YOU ARE WRONG.
Nokia sold 1.5 million N95 in Q2 - That's 3 months from April to June. It's in their financial figures at http://www.nokia.com/A4162334
They have NOT sold 1.5 million since March. That figure is not available. The 1.5 million figure is just Q2. 3 months out of 7.
There's no grey area here. No slack needed at all. It's hard figures in a financial report. Read it.
The most we can say is that the number of sales from that point to now is likely nothing to brag about.
I'm not sure it was an argument that made sense. OK, so both devices sold pretty well. It really doesn't address whether or not iPhone will sell well in Europe, so the time spent trying to get the most accurate figures seems pointless. iPhone certainly doesn't need to "wipe the floor" with any of its competitors to be a success. We're probably all very well aware of the benefits and drawbacks of iPhone vs. its competitors, now it's up to the market to decide what they want based on what they are offered.
FOURTH TIME.
YOU ARE WRONG.
Nokia sold 1.5 million N95 in Q2 - That's 3 months from April to June. It's in their financial figures at http://www.nokia.com/A4162334
They have NOT sold 1.5 million since March. That figure is not available. The 1.5 million figure is just Q2. 3 months out of 7.
There's no grey area here. No slack needed at all. It's hard figures in a financial report. Read it.
Instead just saying 'you're wrong' why not put up the right figure. It seems the comparison is trying to be made between either.
1) from start of sales through the first full quarter
iPhone - 1.39 million
Nokia - 1.5 million + pre partial quarter sales whatever they were. If they were significant they should be in the previous financial report. If they're not there they're likely insignificant for purposes of this (very long) discussion.
2) First full quarter sales
iPhone - 1.12 million
Nokia - 1.5 million
The bottom line is the iPhone sales are impressive by levels set by Nokia.
Instead just saying 'you're wrong' why not put up the right figure. It seems the comparison is trying to be made between either.
Because I can't because Nokia do not break out per-model numbers. The exception being Q2 where they quoted 1.5 million for the N95 in particular. They didn't do so for any other model they sell in Q2 and they must sell at least 100 different models.
Taskiss was claiming the 1.5 million figure was for the entire time since March, which is wrong. That's what I took issue with, with actual facts, which he's continued to ignore.
Nokia's Multimedia division, which is the division that produces the N series, had revenue of 2.5 billion Euro (3.6 billion USD) last quarter out of about 13 billion Euro (18.5 billion USD) revenue for the whole of Nokia. Apple managed 880 million USD if you take the $800 for each iPhone they're recognising over 2 years and just stick it in the last quarter. Apple had revenue of 6.2 billion last quarter (ie. about a third of Nokia).
It's fantastic results for Apple but in context I'm sure Nokia aren't really so bothered when they're selling 112 million handsets a quarter.
As I said, injecting reality into the RDF is dangerous, but that's the hard facts.
They've still some way to go to capture that 1% of the market Jobs stood on stage and predicted. Can they do 0.61% in Europe and Asia ?
Because I can't because Nokia do not break out per-model numbers. The exception being Q2 where they quoted 1.5 million for the N95 in particular. They didn't do so for any other model they sell in Q2 and they must sell at least 100 different models.
Taskiss was claiming the 1.5 million figure was for the entire time since March, which is wrong. That's what I took issue with, with actual facts, which he's continued to ignore.
Nokia's Multimedia division, which is the division that produces the N series, had revenue of 2.5 billion Euro (3.6 billion USD) last quarter out of about 13 billion Euro (18.5 billion USD) revenue for the whole of Nokia. Apple managed 880 million USD if you take the $800 for each iPhone they're recognising over 2 years and just stick it in the last quarter. Apple had revenue of 6.2 billion last quarter (ie. about a third of Nokia).
It's fantastic results for Apple but in context I'm sure Nokia aren't really so bothered when they're selling 112 million handsets a quarter.
As I said, injecting reality into the RDF is dangerous, but that's the hard facts.
No really, what really dangerous is going up against the Anti RDF brigade
If Nokia broke it out in Q2 and didn't in Q1 than they were likely insignificant in Q1. In any case the conclusion holds based solely on the 1st full quarter sales - Apple's sales of iPhone are great, even by supposed Nokia standards.
In another thread discussing the 'new' nokia touch interface there is the same contradictory type of statement as was pointed out earlier in this thread.
This thread
European will only but a better class of phone
Razr/LG is crap
Razr/LG are great selling phones
The other thread (Nokia Killer)
Nokia could care less about iPhone
Nokia will pre-announce an unfinished phone in Nov to disrupt iPhone introduction
Either they care about it or they don't. They either will or won't buy these types of phones. There certainly seems to be an equivalent RDF around European expectation and demands.
Personally, from my European coworkers that I've shown the iPhone to they instantly want to get one.
I'm not sure it was an argument that made sense. OK, so both devices sold pretty well. It really doesn't address whether or not iPhone will sell well in Europe,
I see your point and agree. The value I can see in the comparison is that the Europeans on this list hold the N95 as being superior to the iPhone and declare that Europe will accept nothing less. When you look at the sales in proportion to the market. The iPhone has sold better than the N95.
I agree this does not directly tell how well the iPhone will do in Europe, I think it does give insight that most of Europe was not as infatuated with the N95 as those here lead us to believe.
iPhone is heading into Europe with high expectations and momentum. If the N95 had sold more in Europe than the iPhone had sold in the US during the same quarters, I believe Nokia would have allowed it to be known.
They've still some way to go to capture that 1% of the market Jobs stood on stage and predicted. Can they do 0.61% in Europe and Asia ?
I would wager most of those 250,000 unlocked phones went to other countries where the iPhone is not yet available. I think to some degree Apple does not mind as it begins to build enthusiam for when the phone is official launched.
Having gained .39% in one market with one mobile carrier. It should be no problem to grow at least another .61% with over a billion potential customers yet to be served.
In another thread discussing the 'new' nokia touch interface there is the same contradictory type of statement as was pointed out earlier in this thread.
This thread
European will only but a better class of phone
Razr/LG is crap
Razr/LG are great selling phones
The other thread (Nokia Killer)
Nokia could care less about iPhone
Nokia will pre-announce an unfinished phone in Nov to disrupt iPhone introduction
Either they care about it or they don't. They either will or won't buy these types of phones. There certainly seems to be an equivalent RDF around European expectation and demands.
Personally, from my European coworkers that I've shown the iPhone to they instantly want to get one.
There's nothing contradictory above. The Razr and LG phones are crap. They still sold a load of them here in Europe because of their looks, but their time has passed and they don't sell well now. They aren't in the top ten phones sold now. Moto launched the Razr2 here a month or so ago. That's not showing on the charts yet and I'm not sure it will. In general flip phones aren't as popular as candybars in Europe except in younger age groups.
Nokia quite probably aren't bothered about Apple now. Let's see what Apple can do after their 1.0 products. Touchscreen phones though are the new fashion item it seems. It would be daft for Nokia to not dip a toe in that ocean at least. They refused for a long time to make flip phones for America and have suffered because of it.
I was going to instantly get an iPhone too on November 9th, despite the high cost, despite the limitations. However what they've done with closing off 3rd party apps and bricking unlocked phones left a bad taste so I'm waiting till the SDK is out and they've announced how they are handling 3rd party apps. Some of the things the 3rd party apps did I needed (like ssh) so it'd be pointless me buying one until that is back.
I see your point and agree. The value I can see in the comparison is that the Europeans on this list hold the N95 as being superior to the iPhone and declare that Europe will accept nothing less. When you look at the sales in proportion to the market. The iPhone has sold better than the N95.
It's only superior on a feature comparison basis and we use it as an example of what a top end phone is like in Europe. On a feature comparison is way, way more advanced. We could also use the P1i or N81. There are quite a few other phones with just slightly lesser specs than the N95 but more than the iPhone, but those are also cheaper. The iPhone is more expensive than the N95. Not everyone buys on a feature checklist or price of course as Apple knows.
However, I think there's a big disconnect here. Apple are missing features we consider basic in Europe. I could put up with the lack of MMS, lack of video, lack of 3G, lack of decent camera - just for the UI - but I can't imagine many other people will.
I agree this does not directly tell how well the iPhone will do in Europe, I think it does give insight that most of Europe was not as infatuated with the N95 as those here lead us to believe.
I don't think anyone has said we're infatuated with the N95. Most will tell you it's an oversized brick of a phone with poor software, crappy build quality and poor battery life. Still, it's the cutting edge currently here. That's what Apple are up against, amongst others, including the superb Walkman phones.
iPhone is heading into Europe with high expectations and momentum. If the N95 had sold more in Europe than the iPhone had sold in the US during the same quarters, I believe Nokia would have allowed it to be known.
Come on, Apple didn't break out it's iPod numbers by model when the Zune came out. Companies just don't release that info in general in otherwise dry financials.
I agree this does not directly tell how well the iPhone will do in Europe, I think it does give insight that most of Europe was not as infatuated with the N95 as those here lead us to believe.
Well, if you look at current Nokia products, they list 87 different phone models in Europe. 38 of those are 3G smartphones. They aren't trying to get everyone to buy a N95.
Spec-wise maybe the closest Nokia has to iPhone right now is the N91 music phone. The 4GB version was launched Q2 2006, 8GB version followed it. From a quick look to German net stores, they can be had for about 300-400?.
For a N95-level feature set but a whole lot less teh ugly, the N82 is rumored to be out shortly.
Aegis is right Taskiss. Nokia has certainly sold more N95's since June. The most we can say is that the number of sales from that point to now is likely nothing to brag about.
"The most we can say" about this subject should be limited to verifiable evidence, TenoBell. I did narrow the window to a single quarter but I can't accept making up numbers to support my position. I can discuss things when facts and opinions are involved, but if you claim certain numbers you should have facts, not opinions.
Sort of like the Piper Jaffray claim that 45 million iPhones will be sold in calendar year 2009. 3.75 million iPhones a month! sheesh! How long do you think I'd go unchallenged were I to base any position in any discussion on that wild guess? I'm thinking not too long...
The N95 was offered by another poster as the device with a feature list that "runs circles around the iPhone" (I believe that's how it was described), and it was claimed that EU sophistication demanded such features to capture market share. That's why the discussion shifted in that direction.
There's nothing contradictory above. The Razr and LG phones are crap. They still sold a load of them here in Europe because of their looks, but their time has passed and they don't sell well now. They aren't in the top ten phones sold now. Moto launched the Razr2 here a month or so ago. That's not showing on the charts yet and I'm not sure it will. In general flip phones aren't as popular as candybars in Europe except in younger age groups.
Nokia quite probably aren't bothered about Apple now. Let's see what Apple can do after their 1.0 products. Touchscreen phones though are the new fashion item it seems. It would be daft for Nokia to not dip a toe in that ocean at least. They refused for a long time to make flip phones for America and have suffered because of it.
I was going to instantly get an iPhone too on November 9th, despite the high cost, despite the limitations. However what they've done with closing off 3rd party apps and bricking unlocked phones left a bad taste so I'm waiting till the SDK is out and they've announced how they are handling 3rd party apps. Some of the things the 3rd party apps did I needed (like ssh) so it'd be pointless me buying one until that is back.
It's only superior on a feature comparison basis and we use it as an example of what a top end phone is like in Europe. On a feature comparison is way, way more advanced. We could also use the P1i or N81. There are quite a few other phones with just slightly lesser specs than the N95 but more than the iPhone, but those are also cheaper. The iPhone is more expensive than the N95. Not everyone buys on a feature checklist or price of course as Apple knows.
However, I think there's a big disconnect here. Apple are missing features we consider basic in Europe. I could put up with the lack of MMS, lack of video, lack of 3G, lack of decent camera - just for the UI - but I can't imagine many other people will.
I don't think anyone has said we're infatuated with the N95. Most will tell you it's an oversized brick of a phone with poor software, crappy build quality and poor battery life. Still, it's the cutting edge currently here. That's what Apple are up against, amongst others, including the superb Walkman phones.
Come on, Apple didn't break out it's iPod numbers by model when the Zune came out. Companies just don't release that info in general in otherwise dry financials.
Aegis,
First, please be careful with your quotes. I believe that only the first quote is mine.
Second, it IS highly contradictory to claim something is 'crap' and then say that it sold boatloads. If there was only 1 product, that would be fine but I think we can all agree that there are choices in the mobile phone market so CRAP shouldn't sell. That is, unless, the definition of CRAP is just someone's opinion, and not the markets. What's really contradictory are the claims here that Europeans DEMAND all these features and WILL NOT BUY without them, and yet, in any number of cases quoted, best selling phones in Europe don't meeting these requirements. As I said, there seems to be a whole new RDF around European requirements.
Second, it IS highly contradictory to claim something is 'crap' and then say that it sold boatloads.
I don't think so. McDonald's Big Mac, anyone? A more applicable example, maybe a RAZR?
I don't think so. McDonald's Big Mac, anyone? A more applicable example, maybe a RAZR?
No, the Big Mac is 'crap' to only a portion of the population and if my experience is anything, a good number of that segment sneaks one in now and then