Leopard: worst Mac OS in years

Posted:
in macOS edited January 2014
Why? Because it's the first time in years where I've wanted to pick up my mac and smash it to the ground. This happens to me with my Windows PC on a regular basis, but it's new for the mac. I am considering regrading to Tiger, although I feel that's going to be more trouble than it's worth, at this point.



Not only did Leopard completely fry my webserver -- which operated THROUGH THE BASIC OS X FACILITY, but it seems to have trashed anything and everything POSIX that I had setup since 10.1. I expected that there would be some bugs in the first release, but these aren't bugs: they are complete and utter failures of the design team.



Moreoever, things that were simple before are no longer simple. I still can't for the life of me get Leopard to be networkable in a windows environment. The functionality is buried, and it reverts to "off" if the file sharing is cycled. I assume I'll have to cook up an smb.conf file, (it trashed my last one) but there doesn't even appear to be an smb.conf file at all.



Aside from the string-search feature, the rest are forgettable. Quicklook, I can do without, since it's hardly less quick to just open the file. Coverflow is fun for 3 minutes. So much of the rest is just more of the same. The added features in many of the iApps (notably Mail) I think are only useful to a few people in a million.



And the folders look ugly.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 53
    zoczoc Posts: 77member
    I don't known what's your problem with windows shares, but It works perfectly on my lan (Linux boxes sharing folders with Samba, Windows XP and Vista).



    The smb.conf file is into the /private/etc/ folder. This file includes /var/run/smb.conf, which is the customizable part of the SMB configuration.
  • Reply 2 of 53
    Thanks for the complaints. I'm sure everyone here wanted to hear them.
  • Reply 3 of 53
    Starting off with Leopard, I had trouble connecting to my Windows smb shares. All I had to do was enable the guest account in Windows and make sure Guest had the proper permissions on the shared folders. Some other folders are only accessible to the Admin account so I gave permission to Admin in the security panel of those folders. Can you go into more depth on what issues you are having?
  • Reply 4 of 53
    iposteriposter Posts: 1,560member
    Early adoption, etc. etc.



    Heck, I'm still running Panther, and feel no great urge to upgrade to either 10.4 or 10.5.



    Well, except for widgets!
  • Reply 5 of 53
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post


    Why? Because it's the first time in years where I've wanted to pick up my mac and smash it to the ground. This happens to me with my Windows PC on a regular basis, but it's new for the mac. I am considering regrading to Tiger, although I feel that's going to be more trouble than it's worth, at this point.



    Not only did Leopard completely fry my webserver -- which operated THROUGH THE BASIC OS X FACILITY, but it seems to have trashed anything and everything POSIX that I had setup since 10.1. I expected that there would be some bugs in the first release, but these aren't bugs: they are complete and utter failures of the design team.



    Moreoever, things that were simple before are no longer simple. I still can't for the life of me get Leopard to be networkable in a windows environment. The functionality is buried, and it reverts to "off" if the file sharing is cycled. I assume I'll have to cook up an smb.conf file, (it trashed my last one) but there doesn't even appear to be an smb.conf file at all.



    Aside from the string-search feature, the rest are forgettable. Quicklook, I can do without, since it's hardly less quick to just open the file. Coverflow is fun for 3 minutes. So much of the rest is just more of the same. The added features in many of the iApps (notably Mail) I think are only useful to a few people in a million.



    And the folders look ugly.



    Leopard is the first release where the OS is POSIX through and through.



    Whatever you set up should have been backed up and then tested for POSIX after you back it in.



    I'm betting the trashing your Apache 2 web server has to do with the fact that this is the first release with Apache 2 installed and configured by the vendor. There are several sites talking about LAMP integration and how to configure it if it breaks the way the former unsupported version worked.
  • Reply 6 of 53
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iPoster View Post


    Heck, I'm still running Panther



    Wow, are you a luddite or something?
  • Reply 7 of 53
    pbpb Posts: 4,232member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Daffy_Duck View Post


    Wow, are you a luddite or something?



    Luddite or not I cannot know, but he is certainly not alone.
  • Reply 8 of 53
    vineavinea Posts: 5,585member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post


    Leopard is the first release where the OS is POSIX through and through.



    Whatever you set up should have been backed up and then tested for POSIX after you back it in.



    I'm betting the trashing your Apache 2 web server has to do with the fact that this is the first release with Apache 2 installed and configured by the vendor. There are several sites talking about LAMP integration and how to configure it if it breaks the way the former unsupported version worked.



    Yah, seriously. Leopard has more significant under the skin changes than UI changes. It's now a full unix with UNIX 03 certification and passes the Posix Certification Test Suite is in the same category as AIX 5L, Solaris 10 and HPUX 11.



    This isn't a failure of the design team but user error.



    Failed Step 0: Read the docs. That might have clued you in that the "BASIC OSX FACILITY" probably got significantly modified to meet the UNIX 03 standard.



    Failed Step 1: Fresh reinstall rather than upgrade a complex install with 3rd party tool chains (like Apache 2). Because there's always breakage moving to a new MAJOR REV of an OS. Yes, it takes longer and is annoying but its less annoying in the long run than an unstable system you want to live with for years.



    Failed Step 2: Understanding that changes <> not easy. Its just different. Like where the sbm.conf might live which if you like maybe used Spotlight you could have found...



    Failed Step 3: Wait until 10.5.1



    Failing Step 3 is probably most significant for anyone that didn't want either the UNIX 03 compliance or the new UI changes you hate. What did you want that you jumped on board the first day?
  • Reply 9 of 53
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vinea View Post


    Yah, seriously. Leopard has more significant under the skin changes than UI changes. It's now a full unix with UNIX 03 certification and passes the Posix Certification Test Suite is in the same category as AIX 5L, Solaris 10 and HPUX 11.



    This isn't a failure of the design team but user error.



    Failed Step 0: Read the docs. That might have clued you in that the "BASIC OSX FACILITY" probably got significantly modified to meet the UNIX 03 standard.



    Failed Step 1: Fresh reinstall rather than upgrade a complex install with 3rd party tool chains (like Apache 2). Because there's always breakage moving to a new MAJOR REV of an OS. Yes, it takes longer and is annoying but its less annoying in the long run than an unstable system you want to live with for years.



    Failed Step 2: Understanding that changes <> not easy. Its just different. Like where the sbm.conf might live which if you like maybe used Spotlight you could have found...



    Failed Step 3: Wait until 10.5.1



    Failing Step 3 is probably most significant for anyone that didn't want either the UNIX 03 compliance or the new UI changes you hate. What did you want that you jumped on board the first day?



    Are you calling Splinemodel stupid?
  • Reply 10 of 53
    vineavinea Posts: 5,585member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by kim kap sol View Post


    Are you calling Splinemodel stupid?



    Nope. Sorry if it seems that way.



    He just made an assumption that because its Apple that Tiger to Leopard would be a smooth transition/upgrade.



    Leopard is going to be much better than Tiger. But maybe not 10.5.0 vs 10.4.10. And to get much better they had to break a few things. This is presuming that you feel that UNIX03 and full Posix compliance has some value...



    I guess I'm too used to breakage in upgrades and moving platforms. Going from non-Unix (Linux) to Unix (Solaris) is annoying. Heck, moving from one Linux distro to another is bleeding annoying.



    Going from non-Unix (Tiger) to Unix (Leopard) I assumed would be more of the same.



    Especially if you depend on open source tool chains.



    Never upgrade OS's unless you have a couple days to kill.
  • Reply 11 of 53
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vinea View Post


    Yah, seriously. Leopard has more significant under the skin changes than UI changes. It's now a full unix with UNIX 03 certification and passes the Posix Certification Test Suite is in the same category as AIX 5L, Solaris 10 and HPUX 11.



    This isn't a failure of the design team but user error.



    It would be user error if it were documented, or if there were a way to configure the installer. That's not the case. The Apple support forums are abuzz with users annoyed with the lack of grace in the move from Apache 1.x to 2.0. Maybe you should look into it more before dismissing this: it's a real problem and Apple doesn't seem to have any plans to do a better job with it. If they can't perform a simple conversion between a by-the-books server setup in 1.x to 2.0 in Leopard, I consider that an utter failure. Even fly-by-night linux distros (most of 'em) manage to get this right.



    The SMB problem I still haven't been able to sort out. Thank you for reminding me where smb.conf should be. . . (sarcasm) . . . It's not there. Again, this is not an isolated issue and the support forums are abuzz, with no solution in sight.



    "Early adopter" is no excuse here. Leopard has been in beta for long over a year. Moreover, I've been an early adopter for every release since 10.0, and never have I had to deal with so much grief. I wanted to upgrade so that I could benefit from the much-improved bluetooth drivers (another unfinished work, but still improved). It's unfortunate that doing so caused my setup to be discarded. I would be surprised if these problems are anywhere near the top of the list, so I've relegated myself to waiting for 3rd party developers to work these things out -- I'm too busy right now to spend the time on it.
  • Reply 12 of 53
    vineavinea Posts: 5,585member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post


    It would be user error if it were documented, or if there were a way to configure the installer. That's not the case. The Apple support forums are abuzz with users annoyed with the lack of grace in the move from Apache 1.x to 2.0. Maybe you should look into it more before dismissing this: it's a real problem and Apple doesn't seem to have any plans to do a better job with it. If they can't perform a simple conversion between a by-the-books server setup in 1.x to 2.0 in Leopard, I consider that an utter failure. Even fly-by-night linux distros (most of 'em) manage to get this right.



    Moving from Apache 1.x to 2.0 was a pain in the arse. Not RH, not Debian, nor any of the major distros made it bullet proof because the configuration files changed quite a bit. Things moved about. Defaults changed. Not to mention tool changes happened around the same time with PERL, PHP, etc. Sometimes configure.nice worked. Sometimes not. Sometimes Plesk, CPanel, etc worked. Sometimes not.



    Mostly problems were likely to occur with mySQL, PHP, Tomcat and other pieces that integrate with Apache. It was always best to save off your .conf files and databases and do a clean install of the OS so there's no conflict between old and new. Check the basic Apache function. Then load mySQL in the right place for PHP to find. Then install the rest of your PHP stuff that relies on mySQL. Then do a DB restore and hope.



    The last thing you want is pieces of Apache 1 laying about to confuse the hell out of you. Because in 6 months you'll need to change something and will drive yourself insane wondering why the none of the changes will take and then you realize...duh...I'm editing the wrong conf file.



    You jumped a major rev of the OS AND a major rev of Apache. What did you expect when you went with 10.5.0?



    And moving to UNIX 03 was advertised. I presume it would also be somewhere in the docs.
  • Reply 13 of 53
    shawnjshawnj Posts: 6,656member
    I had my first kernel panic *1* day after an erase and install.



    Seemed a little soon for that.
  • Reply 14 of 53
    really? i haven't hit any yet. what were you doing?
  • Reply 15 of 53
    zoczoc Posts: 77member
    No kernel panic for me.



    My C2D iMac is running 24/24 7/7 since october 26.
  • Reply 16 of 53
    To me, Leopard is simply the best OS I ever used.



    I upgraded both the home iMac and work Macbook from Tiger without a single problem and both have been rock-solid from day one. I don't have a problem with the transparent menu and actually quite like it. I'm a (hidden) side-docker and mainly use quicksilver anyway so the dock changes don't bother me either.



    And now to all the reasons I have for loving Leopard over Tiger and not wanting to go back at all.
    • The new finder rocks. The improved sidebar and quicklook are such usability improvements.

    • Spaces is just absolutely great. Keeps everything clean without ever needing to minimize something. Simple but perfectly executed IMHO. (I just love how my colleagues are impressed by things like switching spaces back and forth between windows in parallels and safari and then switching to the finder with expose and then invoke quicklook for some extra pizzaz )

    • Networking is now great. I use my macbook in a completely windows based network environment at work and it is now so much better at integrating with all the network facilities!

    • Time machine just rocks. It feels so great to just know all your latest file changes and new stuff is automatically backed up. I will still use superduper once in a while for a fully bootable disk copy but this thing just rocks.

    • Speed!!! Leopard has improved both the UI responsiveness and application launch times and responsiveness noticably on both machines. I hardly ever see the beach-ball anymore. I might start to miss it Really impressive in the light of all the added functionality!

    • The improved UI consistency I like a lot. I hated brushed metal and now it's gone

    • Frontrow and mail have both improved nicely. The data-detector in mail is great!

    • The ease of use of the built-in screensharing (direct over a local network and through ichat) just rocks. My sister who lives on the other side of the coutry just switched to a macbook and this weekend I will setup leopard and ichat for her so I will be able to help and instruct her on her own computer from anywhere in the world. Add the built-in picture/video/file sharing and makes it even better. And you just have to LOVE how the core-animation goodness when you switch from your own to the remote screen and back!

    • The great under the hood changes that will bring about some great third-party apps. I am mainly excited about the improved pdf-kit and core-animation and expect some great things here.

    OK, all that is not to say I like everything and I really do think some things can- and should be improved (give tose who want it some preference settings for the 3d dock, dock folders and menu transparency, Apple! ), but overall I have a really hard time understanding someone who doesn't feel that overall, Leopard is a big improvement over Tiger.
  • Reply 17 of 53
    ranumranum Posts: 43member
    Well, after daily freezing that happens whether in Safari or working on papers for my graduate classes in Pages or performing some other minor tasks like opening programs or printing to PDF or performing software updates, it's not hard for me to understand how Leopard is not (yet) a big improvement over Tiger. I've completely reinstalled 10.4.10 on our less than one month old iMac and the iMac is running smooth again, so I think the freezing issues are software related, not hardware. Once Apple has successfully worked out those issues, I'll be happy to use Leopard. As it is, I'm happier using Tiger for the time being.
  • Reply 18 of 53
    physguyphysguy Posts: 915member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post


    Why? Because it's the first time in years where I've wanted to pick up my mac and smash it to the ground. This happens to me with my Windows PC on a regular basis, but it's new for the mac. I am considering regrading to Tiger, although I feel that's going to be more trouble than it's worth, at this point.



    Not only did Leopard completely fry my webserver -- which operated THROUGH THE BASIC OS X FACILITY, but it seems to have trashed anything and everything POSIX that I had setup since 10.1. I expected that there would be some bugs in the first release, but these aren't bugs: they are complete and utter failures of the design team.



    Moreoever, things that were simple before are no longer simple. I still can't for the life of me get Leopard to be networkable in a windows environment. The functionality is buried, and it reverts to "off" if the file sharing is cycled. I assume I'll have to cook up an smb.conf file, (it trashed my last one) but there doesn't even appear to be an smb.conf file at all.



    Aside from the string-search feature, the rest are forgettable. Quicklook, I can do without, since it's hardly less quick to just open the file. Coverflow is fun for 3 minutes. So much of the rest is just more of the same. The added features in many of the iApps (notably Mail) I think are only useful to a few people in a million.



    And the folders look ugly.



    Leopard was a far EASIER upgrade for me than tiger, WRT under the hood customizations. I have highly customized by httpd.conf file with a custom mysql installation and custom php installation. I had read in the documentation that told me that the switch to Apache 2 had been made so I was prepared for that. Because they finally include php 5 with the install the only thing I had to do was enable php in the apache 2 configuration file and copy my /usr/local over from my Previous System folder (I always do archive install) and the one other fix that's been required for some time for some custom mysql installs (ln -s /var/mysql/mysql.sock /tmp/mysql/sock).



    The only major change that affect my customization is that I believe that StartupItems is no longer supported, they have gone to complete launchd requirement. I think this is a good thing. Somewhat painful but is forward looking.
  • Reply 19 of 53
    dacloodacloo Posts: 890member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post


    Why? Because it's the...



    Your personal experience doesn't reflect the general user experience. IMHO the only thing that sucks with Leopard is the translucent menu bar and the 3D dock, but you can't expect a huge upgrade to work 100% in all kinds of custom environments...
  • Reply 20 of 53
    akacakac Posts: 510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vinea View Post


    Yah, seriously. Leopard has more significant under the skin changes than UI changes. It's now a full unix with UNIX 03 certification and passes the Posix Certification Test Suite is in the same category as AIX 5L, Solaris 10 and HPUX 11.



    This isn't a failure of the design team but user error.



    Failed Step 0: Read the docs. That might have clued you in that the "BASIC OSX FACILITY" probably got significantly modified to meet the UNIX 03 standard.



    Failed Step 1: Fresh reinstall rather than upgrade a complex install with 3rd party tool chains (like Apache 2). Because there's always breakage moving to a new MAJOR REV of an OS. Yes, it takes longer and is annoying but its less annoying in the long run than an unstable system you want to live with for years.



    Failed Step 2: Understanding that changes <> not easy. Its just different. Like where the sbm.conf might live which if you like maybe used Spotlight you could have found...



    Failed Step 3: Wait until 10.5.1



    Failing Step 3 is probably most significant for anyone that didn't want either the UNIX 03 compliance or the new UI changes you hate. What did you want that you jumped on board the first day?



    Amen. All of this stuff was documented and discussed by any server admin and so on. It was well understood that Leopard made many major changes to the BSD layer and the UNIX services.



    I run a commercial server on an XServe Xeon with Tiger. I plan to move to Leopard Server for the 64-bit support so I can run MySQL in 64-bit mode (I can do that in Tiger, but its not supported, where it is under Leopard). However I won't just do an upgrade. I know better. Not because I've been running Leopard but because I did some research.
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