OSX.....Get a Book! Learn!
Ok I've read enough blather on how OSX is harder than OS7/8/9. Folks we all new this going in. It's UNIX! Now as far as UI problems I'm in total agreement that there's much work to be done but don't expect to carry your extensive troubleshooting knowledge from the previous OS to this one. This cuts both ways..if and once you DO learn how to keep OSX running in tip top shape your skills will be much more of a valued commodity but no pain no gain folks. OSX is not made to tinker with by the average user. Of course most of us aren't average users so let's roll the sleeves up and dig in a bit before we castrate Apple. /rant
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Troubleshooting? It's not about troubleshooting, it's about doing simple things.
[edit]
Mac OS X is a super-modern operating system that combines the power and stability of UNIX with the simplicity and elegance of the Macintosh.
That last part, to put it bluntly, is a lie.
[ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: groverat ]</p>
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>Or maybe Apple should release a super easy to use version of Unix that's revolutionary and super fantastic wonderful before they say they have.
Troubleshooting? It's not about troubleshooting, it's about doing simple things.
[edit]
Mac OS X is a super-modern operating system that combines the power and stability of UNIX with the simplicity and elegance of the Macintosh.
That last part, to put it bluntly, is a lie.
[ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: groverat ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's been rather trouble free for me. It's safe to say that it's been easier than OS 9 for me.
"Unix and simple do not belong in the same sentence."
and then you say
"Apple's done a phenomenal job of making Unix easy to use."
Sharing hard drives and such over networks with different user access shouldn't be tough. *click* *click* *click* it should be done.
<strong>Ok I've read enough blather on how OSX is harder than OS7/8/9. Folks we all new this going in. It's UNIX! Now as far as UI problems I'm in total agreement that there's much work to be done but don't expect to carry your extensive troubleshooting knowledge from the previous OS to this one. This cuts both ways..if and once you DO learn how to keep OSX running in tip top shape your skills will be much more of a valued commodity but no pain no gain folks. OSX is not made to tinker with by the average user. Of course most of us aren't average users so let's roll the sleeves up and dig in a bit before we castrate Apple. /rant</strong><hr></blockquote>
you disgust me.
Who cares about what Apple built its reputation on Who cares why people use macs. Who cares if Apple throws all that down the drain
<strong>
you disgust me.
Who cares about what Apple built its reputation on Who cares why people use macs. Who cares if Apple throws all that down the drain </strong><hr></blockquote>
applenut, you take some things way too seriously. If it makes you feel any better, Apple makes the easiest to use UNIX I don't think that they're going to stop making it easier to use, but I think that hekal's right: we should take the opportunity to learn about the new system. His point is that things are different, not necessarily harder. All the whiners about how things are different aren't making any good points. If things are actually harder, as they are in the case of file sharing, that's a legit complaint. But when people complain about things like the fact that you have go to the system preferences pane to set up a new user and that's different than it used to be, it's not.
[ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: torifile ]</p>
<strong>
applenut, you take some things way too seriously. If it makes you feel any better, Apple makes the easiest to use UNIX I don't think that they're going to stop making it easier to use, but I think that hekal's right: we should take the opportunity to learn about the new system. His point is that things are different, not necessarily harder. All the whiners about how things are different aren't making any good points. If things are actually harder, as they are in the case of file sharing, that's a legit complaint. But when people complain about things like the fact that you have go to the system preferences pane to set up a new user and that's different than it used to be, it's not.
[ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: torifile ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
you call people who want the Mac OS to be easier and better designed whiners?
damn. the horror of that.
The only other possible gripe I can imagine is that it's not different enough -- not a paradigm shift or earth-shaking in its UI metaphor or engine. But then again, considering both Given Apple's marginalized status with its old engine, and given the vehement resistance to any change by its fan-base and even Windows users (who are primarily windows users because it's what they're used to), this doesn't seem like a valid direction for them to take.
<strong>
you call people who want the Mac OS to be easier and better designed whiners?
damn. the horror of that.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Read my post again. I said that the people who were lamenting the fact that we have system preferences instead of control panels were whiners. I said that there are also some legit complaints. Change is not a bad thing, but many people don't realize it.
The only other possible gripe I can imagine is that it's not different enough -- not a paradigm shift or earth-shaking in its UI metaphor or engine. But then again, considering both Given Apple's marginalized status with its old engine, and given the vehement resistance to any change by its fan-base and even Windows users (who are primarily windows users because it's what they're used to), this doesn't seem like a valid direction for them to take.
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I couldn't have said it better myself. This is exactly how I feel when I read the posts here about how OS X is to complicated.
I share hard drives and network everything (except my USB printer ) and have no problems, even over Airport. I write some Java Applets, Database-driven websites, surf the web, play games, dream for a native version of Photoshop, etc. I find it significantly easier and more reliable than it was in OS 9 and before.
My only reasons for booting into OS 9 now are because I have a SCSI-2 burner on my G4/500 DP and because Red Faction isn't carbonized (yet...).
I am, so far, intensely pleased with the direction Apple has taken OS X. I haven't had to use the Terminal except for doing things that I could just copy/paste into it and I haven't had any significant speed/UI issues either. It just works.
Chalk up one more uneventful OS X experience... And one more lifelong customer.
-Ender
[quote]The only other possible gripe I can imagine is that it's not different enough<hr></blockquote>That may be the main problem. We have whizzy Aqua, but no real changes to the filesystem--no journaling, no use of metadata [a step backwards from OS9], got rid of the Chooser and replaced it with "Print Center" and "Go" [only a person with a fine sense of irony could appreciate that], new snazzy dialog boxes that are broken [don't follow the Finder column UI--what do I mean--try tabbing to a new column like in the Finder--doh!] and worse than OS9.
It is serious griping, because when an OS fsks up your workflow its a bad thing. And its not cause I so stupid that I can't remember that a new folder is command-shift-N, but some the "features" Apple have implemented are in many ways truly half-assed.
[quote]If anything, I find some of the sloppy shit companies are calling "native" software should be taken to task<hr></blockquote>That is a whole other long and very vitriolic discussion thread starting with Adob and Illustrator 10.
[ 12-13-2001: Message edited by: cowerd ]</p>
The thing is once you use it, Aqua is much more effiecent than Plantinum. It speeds up my work flow. How nice is in to minmize documents instead of colasping them? Far easier and faster to get them back. I hated having to use the window menu, or dragging the individual windows around until I found the one I needed. Aqua is a time saver. The dock used to bother me, but now that it's hidden on the left side of my screen, it is still useful and doesn't distract me from working. All in all it like Aqua. 128X128 icons? Beautiful! <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
[ 12-13-2001: Message edited by: Keeksy ]</p>
Groverat- as I said in my post. I will NOT excuse Apple for poor UI choices however I will grant them leniency when it comes to complaints over file structure, libraries etc. That IS Unix.
Applenut- Love the attitude! Disgust is not a bad feeling. You SHOULD demand that Apple improves...we ALL should. But let's also keep in mind that complexity is not always a bad thing and OSX's complexity and you mastering it just may help you get paid very well someday. I'm sure you won't be complaining too much.
Cowerd- What you say is true but in all honesty my Mother couldn't network a PC any quicker or easier so neither company has found the Holy Grail to Networking.
BuonRotto- I agree. If anything OSX is a conservative upgrade. The infrastructure is there for future improvements...let's see what Apple can do. I'm optimistic.
Hekal- Couldn't have said it better myself. Words like Easy and Simple are highly Subjective. Each person will have differing opinions.
OSX still has a ways to go but thank God it's here...we've all waited long enough but it's on us to make sure that we provide good information to Apple and potential future Apple customers. We need to Master it...even if it's more difficult than it should be. That way when the changes do happen you can clearly explain why the new "way" is so much better than the previous "way". Are you up for the challenge?
<strong>Now ask your mother to try doing that. Sorry to drag her into it but you're not exactly Apple's typical user. There is a 100% installed user base that use anything from OS6 to OS9. Anything that is more difficult without providing any appreciable benefits is inexcusable. </strong><hr></blockquote>
My mother couldn't do all that in OS 9. Networking is "hard". That's why she uses AOheLl. X would be no trouble for her because I would never never have to walker her through extensions troubleshooting.
X is better because it doesn't **** up as much as 9 does.
Complexity is sometimes a bad thing. Apple really is trying to make OSX for all users, no lameass WinXP Home, Win XP Pro etc, so the UI really needs to address a large spectrum of users and it has to be simple, clear and also powerful--it has to scale much better than it does with regards to the UI. The Windows Wizards approach is for lazy UI designers who would rather write a set of instructions than re-think the problem.
[ 12-13-2001: Message edited by: cowerd ]</p>
<strong> I won't deny there are some annoying things about the OS. I always press the red traffic light when I want to close an application. I still forget this just closes the window. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Coming from a windows background, are we? It's always been that way.
[quote]<strong> There is no way to maximize a window either. The green trafic light doesn't resize properly. Apple DOES need to fix this. It will slow you down.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Again, that's a windows-ism. The green button is a ZOOM button. Not a maximize button. The whole maximizing a window to fill the screen is really more annoying than useful. No application needs to take up an entire screen for just one window. Just some 'annoyances' that are actually the way they've always been. Even in platinum.
Needless to say I killed that process with extreme prejudice. But it was not at all obvious to those who do not know how to use the Process Viewer or TOP how to fix the problem. It did not show in the Task Menu. Logging Out and back in would have fixed it, but that is not a solution, it is a work around. Sure there are a few annoying things, but I like being up and taxing my system for 2 weeks at a time with no OS Crashes.
This has been an interesting read. I myself have had very few problems with X except for dealing with the firewall. Ftp, web, ssh and file sharing work great for me (except that appletalk never stays on after a shutdown) though I don't have a complicated set of users and groups to manage.
My current uptime is 7.5 days (bring it on 9), speed hasn't decreased since startup and the ram is still not full (though I have a GB) and no extension conflicts.
I will certainly cede that X has lots of bugs and issues, but I think generally, its direction is good (except for lack of metadata, lack of a customizable dock and a few other things) and the column view is the best (I use nothing but).
I think by 10.5, things will be much 'simpler' than they are now for all the standard things that you folk have mentioned.
X is truly a great system though it does take a willingness to get to know it. I think any new user (ie, one that doesn't know 9) wouldn't find it as bad as some may make it out to be. And the future looks good (if they bring back better metadata).
CD
<strong>OMG! I haven't used OS 9 in four months and I'm already confusing it with Windows. Stop using something and you become very rusty. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Sorry! Didn't mean to insult you Although I've been using Macs for over two years and the zoom button still doesn't seem to work predictably. I just can't ever figure out how big the window will be.