Yes 999? is a lot, but it can be a cheaper investment, compared to the nearly 1600? you'll pay in the 2 years your cheapest contract with the iPhone sums up to. You can run it on a cheaper contract for about 20? a month which saves you aprox. 336? in 2 years. And I don't really like the contracts, you can't use your sim in a mobile connect card for your mac book pro, at-least it'll cost you a fortune, because the sim cards with the t-mobile iphone contracts have fixed dial up settings. And T-Mobile isn't offering "real" unlimited data, with the cheapest contract once you reached 200MB in a month your donwload speed is reduced to 64 kbit/s and upload to 16 kbit/s for the rest of that month. For the other 2 contracts limiting bandwidth starts after 1GB or 5GB which is probably ok. I wonder how often T-Mobile won't switch back to the "higher" speeds, because with mobile data connections the speed always varies, so who should really notice.
One thing to mention about the ihpones t-mobile is selleing without a contract, is that you'll have to wait 24 hours before you can activate it, so what T-Mobile does, is to take down the imei numbers of the iPhone when they sell it to you without a contract and then they enter them into theirs or Apples system, so that iTunes will activate that iPhone with any sim card, so that's probably not helping the hackers and unlockers because the iphones are still locked.
The Iphone is overpriced and under delivers paying ?999 is ridiculous but also riculous is signing up to a 2 year contract and STILL having to pay ?399.
The thing is overpriced. Best wait till next year when no doubt the version 2 will come out with all the features europeans are used to like 3g, mms etc.
There are at least 3 million people right now who disagree with you.
I have a 3G phone, every person I know has a 3G phone, do we use 3G? Do we hell! The phones that implement it are so badly designed it makes 3G worthless.
Nobody cares for video conferencing.
The browser on everything bar the iPhone is utter crap.
it would be nice to send images and movies online via 3G, but its soo poorly implemented most people just dont bother.
I'm yet to find a killer app for 3G that currently exists and is implemented well.
I too use a 3G phone (Nokia 6280). The ONLY thing 3G capability has been useful for is when I use my cell phone as a modem for my MacBook; otherwise, 3G is totally overrated, and damn expensive for the supposed speed you get. MMS is so totally, utterly useless, because it's SLOW. Anyone who can say that they are 100% happy with their 3G phone experience is either lying, or haven't really thought it through, IMHO.
In Germany, not only does T-Mobile have over 7000 WiFi nodes throughout the country, they also have it available on the Inter City Express trains, where the vast majority of business commuters here spend their time. This makes the T-Mobile's plans quite attractive for quite a few people. The fact that they throttle the speed down after a certain amount of volume transfer isn't so much of a big deal to me, since you can't use the iPhone as a modem anyway.Honestly, who would download 10 albums worth of music to their iPhones from the iTWMS?
You want it to be illegal to obey a court order to the letter? How about not using the courts for sour grapes?
And yeah...who said that 999 euros isn't a fair price for the phone? If its too high folks won't buy it.
As far as the "masses"...the "masses" typically aren't going to fork over 399 euros for a phone either.
Jeez...its not like its the only smart phone out there and using the term "rape" for something so unimportant as the price of a flipping luxury phone doesn't win you any brownie points.
Very Well said. I am so sick to death and tired of each and every one of these self-entitled losers whining about how this isnt FAIR and that isnt FAIR in a free market society. Dont buy the g--damm phone then. You have a choice. Dont like the deal? Dont buy the phone.
"But its not FAIIIIIRRRRR!"
The phone is indeed so cool that they can not stand the fact that they (who are probably used to being able to get cheap goods and discounts on most everything) can not do the same with iPhone, because Apple knows how good their product is and they hold the freaking line.
I personally laughed myself silly when I read the 999 price. Ha. Ha. Ha.
(a) it's a product that chucks traditional contracts out the window
(b) it's a desirable product that chucks traditional contracts out the window
(c) it's a desirable product that comes the USA which is supposed to be cheap as in Big Mac that chucks their traditional contracts out the window.
So now the country that puts torture, tax returns, and driving exams into the same category-o-fun is having an uberfit over a fucking phone (seriously - if you want German comedy - take a driving test. Comedy GOLD. Learning to fly a LEM takes less time and effort.).
I've never been more proud to be an American. I had no idea that the price of MY (mere) phone included watching the entire planet throw temper tantrums and hurl themselves into the courts and the halls of govt every 2 weeks. How many counties are we up to and how many left to go?
What a deal! CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW?
Thank you for the laugh. WOW. Notice its France and Germany. I'm just sayin'....
Cranking the price up to 999 euros is consumer rape. Seems more like a sidestep around the ruling, so they can say they are complying without taking any actual hit to their market share. For all practical purposes, you still have to go with their contract, unless you've got enough money that you just don't care. So the masses stay with T-Mobile.
Ought to be illegal. Illegal not because it's a crappy thing to do, but because they've done it in an apparent effort to side-step the court order. That's just f-ing dishonest.
C
I'm with you, C-Man. Germans are reticent enough to spend $399 on a phone, no one's going to part with a thousand euros. This is corporate dirty tricks -- we'll see what happens if German courts settle this in Vodafone's favor. Could only be good for consumers -- let the sharks fight it out, pick up the scraps.
Get ready for all the pro-corporate suckers to post.
Very Well said. I am so sick to death and tired of each and every one of these self-entitled losers whining about how this isnt FAIR and that isnt FAIR in a free market society. Dont buy the g--damm phone then. You have a choice. Dont like the deal? Dont buy the phone.
"But its not FAIIIIIRRRRR!"
The phone is indeed so cool that they can not stand the fact that they (who are probably used to being able to get cheap goods and discounts on most everything) can not do the same with iPhone, because Apple knows how good their product is and they hold the freaking line.
I personally laughed myself silly when I read the 999 price. Ha. Ha. Ha.
Let me guess, Hoss. You're pulling down way under 100 K after tax, but you're sticking up for corporations making every penny they can.
How they love people like you.
If you're one of the elite who're making big bucks from the rest of us, I take it all back.
Let me guess, Hoss. You're pulling down way under 100 K after tax, but you're sticking up for corporations making every penny they can.
How they love people like you.
If you're one of the elite who're making big bucks from the rest of us, I take it all back.
I'm no fan of huge corporations, but I can't see how Apple charging what they want for the iPhone represents any kind of vile extraction of hard earned money from honest working people.
They have other cell phones and providers in Germany, no? You can, by shopping around, get your best deal on same? And if, as it happens, the entire mobile infrastructure in Germany is in some way overpriced (which actually would be an example of large corporations abusing the market), Apple has fuck-all to do with that, yes?
Your attitude seems to derive from the notion that, because Apple has made something highly desirable (I have to assume you find it so, or you wouldn't care), they are obliged to price it as cheaply as possible, because average working people have some kind of right to highly desirable consumer electronics items at prices they can afford.
In fact, average working people apparently are somehow obliged to avail themselves of highly desirable consumer items, since otherwise the whole idea that greedy corporations are in some sense extorting money out of such people completely falls apart.
So, as has been said many times already: Apple is making a calculation regarding the market. If they are wrong, they will sell fewer iPhones than they had hoped for, and will have to adjust accordingly. If they are right, then talk of "overpriced" is moot.
But there is no scenario wherein the iPhone represents a bad value proposition to the majority of potential German buyers, but somehow sells well anyway because a resentful and angry population feels forced to purchase a phone that costs more than they think it is worth.
I'm with you, C-Man. Germans are reticent enough to spend $399 on a phone, no one's going to part with a thousand euros. This is corporate dirty tricks -- we'll see what happens if German courts settle this in Vodafone's favor. Could only be good for consumers -- let the sharks fight it out, pick up the scraps.
Get ready for all the pro-corporate suckers to post.
Hey there, this is thomas from germany. They will offer the overpriced phone without a contract for 999?. That what they said today. BUT you still go with a phone which offers no 3G. AND believe me, we don´t have open Wireless Lan networks all over the place. That´s the reason why we use 3g. You are in the middle of nowhere, connect your powerbook/ Ibook/ MacBook (Whatever) to your phone and use it as a MODEM!!!!!! THAT IS WHAT MAKES SENSE. Everything else is just not woth the price. You can pay 4? for 30 Min Time connection if you like to but you can have a 3g flat (includes 350 MB) for 10? a month! So where is the deal?
And T-Mobile really runs mad with the prices at all. Check out www.eplus.de for another network and you will see Nokia phones for 200? with a 3g contract..... Find the differnces ;-)
I'm with you, C-Man. Germans are reticent enough to spend $399 on a phone, no one's going to part with a thousand euros. This is corporate dirty tricks -- we'll see what happens if German courts settle this in Vodafone's favor. Could only be good for consumers -- let the sharks fight it out, pick up the scraps.
Get ready for all the pro-corporate suckers to post.
There's some smash-fetish sites that went to town on an iphone in your neck of the woods. Might be able to pick that one up cheap.
Now - getting it past the AppleCare people - might take some doing...
Hey there, this is thomas from germany. They will offer the overpriced phone without a contract for 999€. That what they said today. BUT you still go with a phone which offers no 3G. AND believe me, we don´t have open Wireless Lan networks all over the place. That´s the reason why we use 3g. You are in the middle of nowhere, connect your powerbook/ Ibook/ MacBook (Whatever) to your phone and use it as a MODEM!!!!!! THAT IS WHAT MAKES SENSE. Everything else is just not woth the price. You can pay 4€ for 30 Min Time connection if you like to but you can have a 3g flat (includes 350 MB) for 10€ a month! So where is the deal?
And T-Mobile really runs mad with the prices at all. Check out www.eplus.de for another network and you will see Nokia phones for 200€ with a 3g contract..... Find the differnces ;-)
Then I guess Apple won't sell any iPhones in Germany, since no sane person would spend money on an item so obviously under-specced and overpriced.
At which point Apple either abandons the market or adjusts their prices accordingly.
Of course, if they do sell some significant number of iPhones, I guess we can chalk that up to mindless fashion droids who buy stupid things because of a character defect.
Although, based on many recent posts, Europeans are less prone to this predominately American failing, so I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
...How about not using the courts for sour grapes?
And yeah...who said that 999 euros isn't a fair price for the phone? If its too high folks won't buy it.
As far as the "masses"...the "masses" typically aren't going to fork over 399 euros for a phone either.
Jeez...its not like its the only smart phone out there and using the term "rape" for something so unimportant as the price of a flipping luxury phone doesn't win you any brownie points.
If you're referring to the, "NO FAIR THEY CUT THE PRICE!!!" lawsuit, I agree, that was an abuse of the legal system, in my eyes. Just plain stupid.
As to whether 999 is a fair price, and, particularly, whether the iPhone is subsidized or not, consider:
Normally, if you get a phone with a subsidy from, say, Sprint, then cancel your contract, you have to pay the cancellation fee PLUS the discount that they gave you on the phone. So if you paid $50 for the phone, but they subsidzed it by $200, then you end up owing them about $375 or so, depending on what their cancellation fee is. So, in light of that, and the common sense realization that they aren't going to set themselves up to loose money if contracts are canceled, we can ask anyone who HAS canceled (or not even initiated?) their AT&T contract whether there was a similar charge in addition to the cancelation fee.
I'm guessing there wasn't, or we'd have heard about it. But does anyone have any first hand experience? It's probably spelled out in your service agreement that you got when you got your iPhone.
C
PS: RE my use of the word 'rape', I see your point. Perhaps I should have used the word, 'abuse' instead. Rape carries with it the feeling of adding insult to injury, which, in my mind, abuse doesn't necessarily have.
Then I guess Apple won't sell any iPhones in Germany, since no sane person would spend money on an item so obviously under-specced and overpriced.
At which point Apple either abandons the market or adjusts their prices accordingly.
Of course, if they do sell some significant number of iPhones, I guess we can chalk that up to mindless fashion droids who buy stupid things because of a character defect.
Although, based on many recent posts, Europeans are less prone to this predominately American failing, so I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
Exactly. Of course there are a number of phones sold already to people who needed the phone because of its character but even the press can´t understand why it´s old fashion standard..... And that is a shame. But it´s definitly not worth the price without the contract. And I can have it on ebay for the same price than with a T-Mobile contract. Anyway. Hopefully Version 2 is on its way so I can buy one ;-)
Don´t get me wrong, I love the phone but there is still something why I won´t buy it ;-)
Have a good one.
By the way...... Why is apple that much cheaper in US than in Europe anyway??? I just don´t get it......
You want it to be illegal to obey a court order to the letter?
Spirit of the law versus Letter of the law. A blatant disregard for either one is an insult to the justice system. Look up the definition of Contempt, in the legal sense, and tell me that doesn't apply.
I am basing my conclusions on the price of the iPod touch which is, GSM/EDGE hardware excluded, a similar device. After all the iPhone was the best iPod they ever made...
By taking the price of a 8GB touch and then adding some bits and bobs for the GSM and EDGE stack (fair to assume that this costs < 100$ else Nokia could not manufactor GSM/EDGE phone for that price....), I would say that 399 Euro is indeed a reasonable price where no subsidies are paid.
The other reason is the operator kick back Apple gets of the airtime. The amount they get as a kick back equates to some extend to the amount they pay other retailers for a new customer. OK sometimes they pay more - else you would not get a N95 for 1 Euro (and a hefty 24 month contract).
But 399 when scaled seems about right. Look as well at the bill of goods that a teardown shows. isuppli guestimates 265$ to make the thing and that is 178 Euro...
You've left out part of the equation - the wireless company's investment to enable current and future iPhone unique services. I'll leave the math to you....
Bloody nonsense. The only investment they need are programmers to write the back end software to enable such future features. They already have them. They're not investing in new, iPhone only, programmers and system engineers.
There is no conceivable investment that they could make, aside from the visual voicemail development time. iPhone runs on existing network hardware. There is nothing special they had to do. Unless we want to count the lawyer fees from the endless wrangling with Apple as an investment. Again, they already have these guys. Cost of doing business, and all that.
How would everyone know that? Do you have a copy of their contract with Apple?
It is well established in the US that Apple is receiving a percentage of monthly fees, so it would not be surprising if this occurs elsewhere.
As for 'insulting', all the stupid lawsuits from people who want everything without paying for it are even more insulting. Apple had a business deal with T-mobile and Vodaphone didn't like it. T-mobile gave Vodaphone exactly what they requested. So what's the beef (other than the usual whining from people who refuse to accept the free market)?
Actually, I agree that Vodaphone is being a whiny bitch. I see legitimate reason (from the perspective of what is just) to force the T-Mobile and Apple to make the iPhone unlocked/able. It is definitely beneficial to consumers and other carriers, but I see no convincing argument to require it.
It's like the iPhone refunds. It was of great benefit to the customers, but I really don't see any grounds for forcing it.
But then, just cause you don't have to doesn't mean you shouldn't.
Exactly. Of course there are a number of phones sold already to people who needed the phone because of its character but even the press can´t understand why it´s old fashion standard..... And that is a shame. But it´s definitly not worth the price without the contract. And I can have it on ebay for the same price than with a T-Mobile contract. Anyway. Hopefully Version 2 is on its way so I can buy one ;-)
Don´t get me wrong, I love the phone but there is still something why I won´t buy it ;-)
Have a good one.
By the way...... Why is apple that much cheaper in US than in Europe anyway??? I just don´t get it......
Why are german cars much cheaper in the US than in Europe? Why is anything electronic cheaper in the USA? It is not just Apple, it's the way it is.
3G is so overrated, not only because it is expensive to use.
Battery life with 3G is also appalling.
A Nokia 8800 Scirocco cost way over 1000 euro, and is a lousy old fashioned phone compared to the iPhone..
They did exactly what the court told them to do. How is that dishonest?
Any company is free to price their product any way they want. If you don't like it, don't buy it. If enough people don't buy it, they lower the price or stop selling it.
I really don't get this attitude where people think that they're free to dictate how companies should price their product. If you want to do that, take Steve Jobs' job. Until then, your only option is to buy or not to by (or to whine as seems to be popular around here).
A man is arrested for punching his wife every day when he gets home from work. The judge orders the man, "You will not punch your wife! You will give her a rose instead."
The man goes home, gives his wife a rose, then kicks her.
That's how.
Pricing is something that is up to the company. What I object to is the apparent attempt to bypass a court order. I agree that they are free to price as they see fit. The market will decide if it is the right price or not. The problem is that this isn't a simple issue of pricing. This is a matter of a company (apparently) attempting to evade the effects and intend of a court ruling. THAT is dishonest. If you're ruled against, even temporarily, suck it up and drive on. Appeal till your appeals run out. Stop selling the damn thing at all, if you don't want to provide it without the contract glue. DO NOT try to weasel your way out of taking responsibility for the ruling.
There's a fine line here, and it centers on intent. Hmm, I bet someone has a nice quote for that.
Comments
One thing to mention about the ihpones t-mobile is selleing without a contract, is that you'll have to wait 24 hours before you can activate it, so what T-Mobile does, is to take down the imei numbers of the iPhone when they sell it to you without a contract and then they enter them into theirs or Apples system, so that iTunes will activate that iPhone with any sim card, so that's probably not helping the hackers and unlockers because the iphones are still locked.
The Iphone is overpriced and under delivers paying ?999 is ridiculous but also riculous is signing up to a 2 year contract and STILL having to pay ?399.
The thing is overpriced. Best wait till next year when no doubt the version 2 will come out with all the features europeans are used to like 3g, mms etc.
There are at least 3 million people right now who disagree with you.
I have a 3G phone, every person I know has a 3G phone, do we use 3G? Do we hell! The phones that implement it are so badly designed it makes 3G worthless.
Nobody cares for video conferencing.
The browser on everything bar the iPhone is utter crap.
it would be nice to send images and movies online via 3G, but its soo poorly implemented most people just dont bother.
I'm yet to find a killer app for 3G that currently exists and is implemented well.
I too use a 3G phone (Nokia 6280). The ONLY thing 3G capability has been useful for is when I use my cell phone as a modem for my MacBook; otherwise, 3G is totally overrated, and damn expensive for the supposed speed you get. MMS is so totally, utterly useless, because it's SLOW. Anyone who can say that they are 100% happy with their 3G phone experience is either lying, or haven't really thought it through, IMHO.
In Germany, not only does T-Mobile have over 7000 WiFi nodes throughout the country, they also have it available on the Inter City Express trains, where the vast majority of business commuters here spend their time. This makes the T-Mobile's plans quite attractive for quite a few people. The fact that they throttle the speed down after a certain amount of volume transfer isn't so much of a big deal to me, since you can't use the iPhone as a modem anyway.Honestly, who would download 10 albums worth of music to their iPhones from the iTWMS?
You want it to be illegal to obey a court order to the letter? How about not using the courts for sour grapes?
And yeah...who said that 999 euros isn't a fair price for the phone? If its too high folks won't buy it.
As far as the "masses"...the "masses" typically aren't going to fork over 399 euros for a phone either.
Jeez...its not like its the only smart phone out there and using the term "rape" for something so unimportant as the price of a flipping luxury phone doesn't win you any brownie points.
Very Well said. I am so sick to death and tired of each and every one of these self-entitled losers whining about how this isnt FAIR and that isnt FAIR in a free market society. Dont buy the g--damm phone then. You have a choice. Dont like the deal? Dont buy the phone.
"But its not FAIIIIIRRRRR!"
The phone is indeed so cool that they can not stand the fact that they (who are probably used to being able to get cheap goods and discounts on most everything) can not do the same with iPhone, because Apple knows how good their product is and they hold the freaking line.
I personally laughed myself silly when I read the 999 price. Ha. Ha. Ha.
(a) it's a product that chucks traditional contracts out the window
(b) it's a desirable product that chucks traditional contracts out the window
(c) it's a desirable product that comes the USA which is supposed to be cheap as in Big Mac that chucks their traditional contracts out the window.
So now the country that puts torture, tax returns, and driving exams into the same category-o-fun is having an uberfit over a fucking phone (seriously - if you want German comedy - take a driving test. Comedy GOLD. Learning to fly a LEM takes less time and effort.).
I've never been more proud to be an American. I had no idea that the price of MY (mere) phone included watching the entire planet throw temper tantrums and hurl themselves into the courts and the halls of govt every 2 weeks. How many counties are we up to and how many left to go?
What a deal! CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW?
Thank you for the laugh. WOW. Notice its France and Germany. I'm just sayin'....
Cranking the price up to 999 euros is consumer rape. Seems more like a sidestep around the ruling, so they can say they are complying without taking any actual hit to their market share. For all practical purposes, you still have to go with their contract, unless you've got enough money that you just don't care. So the masses stay with T-Mobile.
Ought to be illegal. Illegal not because it's a crappy thing to do, but because they've done it in an apparent effort to side-step the court order. That's just f-ing dishonest.
C
I'm with you, C-Man. Germans are reticent enough to spend $399 on a phone, no one's going to part with a thousand euros. This is corporate dirty tricks -- we'll see what happens if German courts settle this in Vodafone's favor. Could only be good for consumers -- let the sharks fight it out, pick up the scraps.
Get ready for all the pro-corporate suckers to post.
Very Well said. I am so sick to death and tired of each and every one of these self-entitled losers whining about how this isnt FAIR and that isnt FAIR in a free market society. Dont buy the g--damm phone then. You have a choice. Dont like the deal? Dont buy the phone.
"But its not FAIIIIIRRRRR!"
The phone is indeed so cool that they can not stand the fact that they (who are probably used to being able to get cheap goods and discounts on most everything) can not do the same with iPhone, because Apple knows how good their product is and they hold the freaking line.
I personally laughed myself silly when I read the 999 price. Ha. Ha. Ha.
Let me guess, Hoss. You're pulling down way under 100 K after tax, but you're sticking up for corporations making every penny they can.
How they love people like you.
If you're one of the elite who're making big bucks from the rest of us, I take it all back.
Let me guess, Hoss. You're pulling down way under 100 K after tax, but you're sticking up for corporations making every penny they can.
How they love people like you.
If you're one of the elite who're making big bucks from the rest of us, I take it all back.
I'm no fan of huge corporations, but I can't see how Apple charging what they want for the iPhone represents any kind of vile extraction of hard earned money from honest working people.
They have other cell phones and providers in Germany, no? You can, by shopping around, get your best deal on same? And if, as it happens, the entire mobile infrastructure in Germany is in some way overpriced (which actually would be an example of large corporations abusing the market), Apple has fuck-all to do with that, yes?
Your attitude seems to derive from the notion that, because Apple has made something highly desirable (I have to assume you find it so, or you wouldn't care), they are obliged to price it as cheaply as possible, because average working people have some kind of right to highly desirable consumer electronics items at prices they can afford.
In fact, average working people apparently are somehow obliged to avail themselves of highly desirable consumer items, since otherwise the whole idea that greedy corporations are in some sense extorting money out of such people completely falls apart.
So, as has been said many times already: Apple is making a calculation regarding the market. If they are wrong, they will sell fewer iPhones than they had hoped for, and will have to adjust accordingly. If they are right, then talk of "overpriced" is moot.
But there is no scenario wherein the iPhone represents a bad value proposition to the majority of potential German buyers, but somehow sells well anyway because a resentful and angry population feels forced to purchase a phone that costs more than they think it is worth.
I'm with you, C-Man. Germans are reticent enough to spend $399 on a phone, no one's going to part with a thousand euros. This is corporate dirty tricks -- we'll see what happens if German courts settle this in Vodafone's favor. Could only be good for consumers -- let the sharks fight it out, pick up the scraps.
Get ready for all the pro-corporate suckers to post.
Hey there, this is thomas from germany. They will offer the overpriced phone without a contract for 999?. That what they said today. BUT you still go with a phone which offers no 3G. AND believe me, we don´t have open Wireless Lan networks all over the place. That´s the reason why we use 3g. You are in the middle of nowhere, connect your powerbook/ Ibook/ MacBook (Whatever) to your phone and use it as a MODEM!!!!!! THAT IS WHAT MAKES SENSE. Everything else is just not woth the price. You can pay 4? for 30 Min Time connection if you like to but you can have a 3g flat (includes 350 MB) for 10? a month! So where is the deal?
And T-Mobile really runs mad with the prices at all. Check out www.eplus.de for another network and you will see Nokia phones for 200? with a 3g contract..... Find the differnces ;-)
I'm with you, C-Man. Germans are reticent enough to spend $399 on a phone, no one's going to part with a thousand euros. This is corporate dirty tricks -- we'll see what happens if German courts settle this in Vodafone's favor. Could only be good for consumers -- let the sharks fight it out, pick up the scraps.
Get ready for all the pro-corporate suckers to post.
There's some smash-fetish sites that went to town on an iphone in your neck of the woods. Might be able to pick that one up cheap.
Now - getting it past the AppleCare people - might take some doing...
Hey there, this is thomas from germany. They will offer the overpriced phone without a contract for 999€. That what they said today. BUT you still go with a phone which offers no 3G. AND believe me, we don´t have open Wireless Lan networks all over the place. That´s the reason why we use 3g. You are in the middle of nowhere, connect your powerbook/ Ibook/ MacBook (Whatever) to your phone and use it as a MODEM!!!!!! THAT IS WHAT MAKES SENSE. Everything else is just not woth the price. You can pay 4€ for 30 Min Time connection if you like to but you can have a 3g flat (includes 350 MB) for 10€ a month! So where is the deal?
And T-Mobile really runs mad with the prices at all. Check out www.eplus.de for another network and you will see Nokia phones for 200€ with a 3g contract..... Find the differnces ;-)
Then I guess Apple won't sell any iPhones in Germany, since no sane person would spend money on an item so obviously under-specced and overpriced.
At which point Apple either abandons the market or adjusts their prices accordingly.
Of course, if they do sell some significant number of iPhones, I guess we can chalk that up to mindless fashion droids who buy stupid things because of a character defect.
Although, based on many recent posts, Europeans are less prone to this predominately American failing, so I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
...How about not using the courts for sour grapes?
And yeah...who said that 999 euros isn't a fair price for the phone? If its too high folks won't buy it.
As far as the "masses"...the "masses" typically aren't going to fork over 399 euros for a phone either.
Jeez...its not like its the only smart phone out there and using the term "rape" for something so unimportant as the price of a flipping luxury phone doesn't win you any brownie points.
If you're referring to the, "NO FAIR THEY CUT THE PRICE!!!" lawsuit, I agree, that was an abuse of the legal system, in my eyes. Just plain stupid.
As to whether 999 is a fair price, and, particularly, whether the iPhone is subsidized or not, consider:
Normally, if you get a phone with a subsidy from, say, Sprint, then cancel your contract, you have to pay the cancellation fee PLUS the discount that they gave you on the phone. So if you paid $50 for the phone, but they subsidzed it by $200, then you end up owing them about $375 or so, depending on what their cancellation fee is. So, in light of that, and the common sense realization that they aren't going to set themselves up to loose money if contracts are canceled, we can ask anyone who HAS canceled (or not even initiated?) their AT&T contract whether there was a similar charge in addition to the cancelation fee.
I'm guessing there wasn't, or we'd have heard about it. But does anyone have any first hand experience? It's probably spelled out in your service agreement that you got when you got your iPhone.
C
PS: RE my use of the word 'rape', I see your point. Perhaps I should have used the word, 'abuse' instead. Rape carries with it the feeling of adding insult to injury, which, in my mind, abuse doesn't necessarily have.
Then I guess Apple won't sell any iPhones in Germany, since no sane person would spend money on an item so obviously under-specced and overpriced.
At which point Apple either abandons the market or adjusts their prices accordingly.
Of course, if they do sell some significant number of iPhones, I guess we can chalk that up to mindless fashion droids who buy stupid things because of a character defect.
Although, based on many recent posts, Europeans are less prone to this predominately American failing, so I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
Exactly. Of course there are a number of phones sold already to people who needed the phone because of its character but even the press can´t understand why it´s old fashion standard..... And that is a shame. But it´s definitly not worth the price without the contract. And I can have it on ebay for the same price than with a T-Mobile contract. Anyway. Hopefully Version 2 is on its way so I can buy one ;-)
Don´t get me wrong, I love the phone but there is still something why I won´t buy it ;-)
Have a good one.
By the way...... Why is apple that much cheaper in US than in Europe anyway??? I just don´t get it......
You want it to be illegal to obey a court order to the letter?
Spirit of the law versus Letter of the law. A blatant disregard for either one is an insult to the justice system. Look up the definition of Contempt, in the legal sense, and tell me that doesn't apply.
C
No wishful thinking at alll
I am basing my conclusions on the price of the iPod touch which is, GSM/EDGE hardware excluded, a similar device. After all the iPhone was the best iPod they ever made...
By taking the price of a 8GB touch and then adding some bits and bobs for the GSM and EDGE stack (fair to assume that this costs < 100$ else Nokia could not manufactor GSM/EDGE phone for that price....), I would say that 399 Euro is indeed a reasonable price where no subsidies are paid.
The other reason is the operator kick back Apple gets of the airtime. The amount they get as a kick back equates to some extend to the amount they pay other retailers for a new customer. OK sometimes they pay more - else you would not get a N95 for 1 Euro (and a hefty 24 month contract).
But 399 when scaled seems about right. Look as well at the bill of goods that a teardown shows. isuppli guestimates 265$ to make the thing and that is 178 Euro...
I leave the maths to you....
Fine rebuttal. Thank you.
C
You've left out part of the equation - the wireless company's investment to enable current and future iPhone unique services. I'll leave the math to you....
Bloody nonsense. The only investment they need are programmers to write the back end software to enable such future features. They already have them. They're not investing in new, iPhone only, programmers and system engineers.
There is no conceivable investment that they could make, aside from the visual voicemail development time. iPhone runs on existing network hardware. There is nothing special they had to do. Unless we want to count the lawyer fees from the endless wrangling with Apple as an investment. Again, they already have these guys. Cost of doing business, and all that.
C
How would everyone know that? Do you have a copy of their contract with Apple?
It is well established in the US that Apple is receiving a percentage of monthly fees, so it would not be surprising if this occurs elsewhere.
As for 'insulting', all the stupid lawsuits from people who want everything without paying for it are even more insulting. Apple had a business deal with T-mobile and Vodaphone didn't like it. T-mobile gave Vodaphone exactly what they requested. So what's the beef (other than the usual whining from people who refuse to accept the free market)?
Actually, I agree that Vodaphone is being a whiny bitch. I see legitimate reason (from the perspective of what is just) to force the T-Mobile and Apple to make the iPhone unlocked/able. It is definitely beneficial to consumers and other carriers, but I see no convincing argument to require it.
It's like the iPhone refunds. It was of great benefit to the customers, but I really don't see any grounds for forcing it.
But then, just cause you don't have to doesn't mean you shouldn't.
C
Exactly. Of course there are a number of phones sold already to people who needed the phone because of its character but even the press can´t understand why it´s old fashion standard..... And that is a shame. But it´s definitly not worth the price without the contract. And I can have it on ebay for the same price than with a T-Mobile contract. Anyway. Hopefully Version 2 is on its way so I can buy one ;-)
Don´t get me wrong, I love the phone but there is still something why I won´t buy it ;-)
Have a good one.
By the way...... Why is apple that much cheaper in US than in Europe anyway??? I just don´t get it......
Why are german cars much cheaper in the US than in Europe? Why is anything electronic cheaper in the USA? It is not just Apple, it's the way it is.
3G is so overrated, not only because it is expensive to use.
Battery life with 3G is also appalling.
A Nokia 8800 Scirocco cost way over 1000 euro, and is a lousy old fashioned phone compared to the iPhone..
They did exactly what the court told them to do. How is that dishonest?
Any company is free to price their product any way they want. If you don't like it, don't buy it. If enough people don't buy it, they lower the price or stop selling it.
I really don't get this attitude where people think that they're free to dictate how companies should price their product. If you want to do that, take Steve Jobs' job. Until then, your only option is to buy or not to by (or to whine as seems to be popular around here).
A man is arrested for punching his wife every day when he gets home from work. The judge orders the man, "You will not punch your wife! You will give her a rose instead."
The man goes home, gives his wife a rose, then kicks her.
That's how.
Pricing is something that is up to the company. What I object to is the apparent attempt to bypass a court order. I agree that they are free to price as they see fit. The market will decide if it is the right price or not. The problem is that this isn't a simple issue of pricing. This is a matter of a company (apparently) attempting to evade the effects and intend of a court ruling. THAT is dishonest. If you're ruled against, even temporarily, suck it up and drive on. Appeal till your appeals run out. Stop selling the damn thing at all, if you don't want to provide it without the contract glue. DO NOT try to weasel your way out of taking responsibility for the ruling.
There's a fine line here, and it centers on intent. Hmm, I bet someone has a nice quote for that.
C