And I would gather that the person you were responding to is from Belgium (from his moniker) so give him at least credit for knowing his European geography and the habits of European shoppers better than most outsiders. Brussels - Paris using the T.G.V. might be shorter, time wise, than you daily commute, and comes at less than 250 Euros...
[Last Edit] OK, I'm the dummy, BRUssell lives in Germany. Wait, that makes him even more knowlegeable!
[Last last Edit] Darn, you're from Belgium, and from your locational description, I'd say Flemish. So you should know that what BRussell is saying is true
No probs. German living in Belgium actually. The price i quoted was for the Thalys High Speed Train from Cologne to Paris
But you're right Brussels-Paris about an hour by train, Brussels-London 1h51' Brussels-Cologne 1h40 (no proper high speed link yet, complicated geography...) makes for uite good cross-border shopping...
What kind of idiot would pay $1,100 (in US Dollars) for a phone? $400 is ridiculous. $1,100 is insane.
Also, I see why US carriers quote their usage time in minutes. 250 minutes per month sounds a lot better than 3 hours per month...
$400 is probably what the phone is actually worth, so it's not ridiculous. The LG KE850 is going for $449.99. The Nokia N95 is going for $569.99.
The iPhone is by no means the most expensive phone. And, you still need to pay for your plan, or minutes, with the others. It's not as though you are saving anything, unless you want an expensive, complex, feature laden phone with a cheap featureless plan.
While you can choose a network, depending on whether it's CDMA or GSM, the truth is that none of the big networks are that much better overall.
Putting aside the uber fanbois who just love to be owned, nobody sane would buy the iphone for what it is at such a price, wherever it is in Germany or in France... And I am still amazed by the free advertisement pushed by the press for this product.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
No Englishman deserves such a fate.
Yeah rather stay an Englishman, their island syndrome, their francophobic "press" conditioning an idiotic aversion, between the others prejudices growing on the utter ignorance of some. They wouldn't want such kind of people anyway.
Yeah rather stay an Englishman, their island syndrome, their francophobic "press" conditioning an idiotic aversion, between the others prejudices growing on the utter ignorance of some. They wouldn't want such kind of people anyway.
The problem is that the French portray themselves as being something they are not. It's irksome.
We have this problem in the US these days in particular, with our present, wonderful, administration. Most everyone is also soured on us too.
The unlocked French iPhone at ?749 is about ?50 less than the N95 8GB in Europe.
Prices include VAT.
Melgross, if N95s are going for $569.99 in the US unlocked then that's actually cheaper than Europe even after tax. Street price for an unlocked N95 here though is about £250/$500 inc tax, not £374.95 at a more mainstream place like Expansys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
The iPhone is by no means the most expensive phone. And, you still need to pay for your plan, or minutes, with the others. It's not as though you are saving anything, unless you want an expensive, complex, feature laden phone with a cheap featureless plan.
Actually, as we've pointed out in many of the threads so far, many Europeans see it the other way round. It's a featureless phone with an expensive plan if you buy it today. If you don't need large data usage and Cloud access in the UK, arguably even at ?749, you'd be much better off buying it unlocked and using a PAYG SIM from your favourite supplier and a cheaper £7.50 a month data addon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
While you can choose a network, depending on whether it's CDMA or GSM, the truth is that none of the big networks are that much better overall.
Not the case in Europe. We're all GSM here but some have very different plans, addons and freebies. Apple are bucking that trend by trying to lock in carriers and plans US style, and we don't like it.
The unlocked French iPhone at €749 is about €50 less than the N95 8GB in Europe.
Prices include VAT.
Melgross, if N95s are going for $569.99 in the US unlocked then that's actually cheaper than Europe even after tax. Street price for an unlocked N95 here though is about £250/$500 inc tax, not £374.95 at a more mainstream place like Expansys.
Yes. The prices in Europe seem to be too high. This is the price from the J&R ad (big electronics dealer here in New York, but also have a web store) in the NY Times today.
Quote:
Actually, as we've pointed out in many of the threads so far, many Europeans see it the other way round. It's a featureless phone with an expensive plan if you buy it today. If you don't need large data usage and Cloud access in the UK, arguably even at €749, you'd be much better off buying it unlocked and using a PAYG SIM from your favourite supplier and a cheaper £7.50 a month data addon.
I'm sure some do see it that way. But, over here, many of these full featured phones so loved in Europe are seen as clumsy, and complicated.
Different tastes Many Americans are not interested in learning these phones, so they don't sell well here. The iPhone is seen as having the right combination of performance, features, and ease of use.
After all, the iPod has been criticized for years as being feature=free by some techies, but most people prefer that. Most don't use those features, so they don't care.
Different philosophies. Neither is better.
Quote:
Not the case in Europe. We're all GSM here but some have very different plans, addons and freebies. Apple are bucking that trend by trying to lock in carriers and plans US style, and we don't like it.
I completely agree with you there! I think what Apple is doing is bad in the long run. Higher profits now, but limiting the numbers of phones sold overall.
But, the one redeeming feature is the visual voicemail. Would companies re-do their software for that if they didn't have some time as an exclusive? I don't think they would. We could debate the value of that feature, of course, but it's still something to ponder.
By the way, you know me long enough to call me Mel.
The unlocked French iPhone at ?749 is about ?50 less than the N95 8GB in Europe.
Prices include VAT.
It's not really fair to compare two models of phone like that - they have different features, different manufacturing/development costs, etc. It's well-established that a locked iPhone costs a lot more than locked phones of other models. So it stands to reason that the unlocked ones will also be expensive.
Based on my own searches, unlocked phones typically cost 120-300% more than the locked version of the same phone. Orange's pricing - an 87% increase - is cheap in comparison.
I dont think the price of the iPhone is that ridiculous - it is very full featured - it's MORE featured than an iPod and the 8Gb touch goes for nearly $600AUD...
The real outrage here is the plan pricing - 4 hours of talk + ONLY FIFTY sms?? What??? for 49 euros which is a lot! That is almost $100AUD and we get way more value from even a $30 plan.
Do bear in mind that a euro, in Europe, is just about worth the same in every day life as a dollar in the US. Apple's pricing has always been in line with that, usually Apple prices are converted 1:1 from dollars to euros. I have my doubts about the additional 100 euros, if that really is true then it's still a bit steep, but not so extreme as converting the street price to dollars makes it sound. See if you would consider 649 dollars a fair price for an unlocked iPhone. It's just that the current exchange rate is becoming ridiculous, there were times when the dollar was worth about 20% more than the Euro, it has just about halved since then.
Of course, I wouldn't complain if Apple were to take the exchange rate more into account, but as others have shown, the prices for the device are not extreme, in the current European market.
Do bear in mind that a euro, in Europe, is just about worth the same in every day life as a dollar in the US. Apple's pricing has always been in line with that, usually Apple prices are converted 1:1 from dollars to euros. I have my doubts about the additional 100 euros, if that really is true then it's still a bit steep, but not so extreme as converting the street price to dollars makes it sound. See if you would consider 649 dollars a fair price for an unlocked iPhone. It's just that the current exchange rate is becoming ridiculous, there were times when the dollar was worth about 20% more than the Euro, it has just about halved since then.
Of course, I wouldn't complain if Apple were to take the exchange rate more into account, but as others have shown, the prices for the device are not extreme, in the current European market.
Or if you live in the UK they convert then put 30% on top *twats*
Canada (...removing BS political commentary...) will (have) no unlock option.
Even if you did unlock, there's no competing network in Canada using compatible (GSM) technology, so an unlocked phone is pointless for domestic customers.
And currently, even overseas travellers are out of luck. (Rogers doesn't have any published policy for providing unlock codes to customers for any reason whatsoever on any of its current phones.) But if you're lucky, Rogers will have roaming agreements in place allowing you privileged access to exclusive rates. If you're travelling to France, for example, then you can take advantage of wonderful roaming options from their partner Orange, with rates like $2.00 per minute for all incoming calls, $2.00 per minute to call back to Canada, and $1.00 per minute to call local numbers in France.
I'm sure some do see it that way. But, over here, many of these full featured phones so loved in Europe are seen as clumsy, and complicated.
Different tastes Many Americans are not interested in learning these phones, so they don't sell well here. The iPhone is seen as having the right combination of performance, features, and ease of use.
I think perhaps Europeans also use more of those features so learn them and use them regularly enough that they become second nature.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
But, the one redeeming feature is the visual voicemail. Would companies re-do their software for that if they didn't have some time as an exclusive? I don't think they would. We could debate the value of that feature, of course, but it's still something to ponder.
I don't think it's very hard to implement. I'd be very surprised if it wasn't just a case of Apple providing an XServe or three to the carrier that acts like a mail server with the carrier only having to link that in with their existing voicemail system. Visual Voicemail works over a data connection IIRC, not the voice line.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shamino
It's not really fair to compare two models of phone like that - they have different features, different manufacturing/development costs, etc. It's well-established that a locked iPhone costs a lot more than locked phones of other models. So it stands to reason that the unlocked ones will also be expensive.
Do you honestly think an iPhone costs more to manufacture than an N95 8GB ?? I don't. The touch screen is perhaps expensive but then so are the other bits in the N95 that the iPhone doesn't have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shamino
Based on my own searches, unlocked phones typically cost 120-300% more than the locked version of the same phone. Orange's pricing - an 87% increase - is cheap in comparison.
I think that is only because the locked iPhone is unusually highly priced to begin with. Work back 300% from the unlocked iPhone price and perhaps you'll arrive at a reasonable price for a locked iPhone comparable also with other similar phones.
Do you honestly think an iPhone costs more to manufacture than an N95 8GB ?? I don't. The touch screen is perhaps expensive but then so are the other bits in the N95 that the iPhone doesn't have.
You're ignoring my point. A locked iPhone costs $400 in the US, when other locked AT&T smartphones cost $150-200. If a locked iPhone costs twice what other smartphones cost, it stands to reason that an unlocked one will cost twice what some other unlocked smartphones cost.
All the discussions of "an iPhone contains 20 cents worth of used pinball parts, so Apple is ripping you off" were beaten to death when the device was first introduce months ago. If you want to continue that thread, please take it over there.
In this thread, the complaints have specifically been about the price difference between the locked and unlocked models. It is unreasonable to expect a phone with a much higher base-price to not also have a much-higher unlocked price.
I completely agree with you there! I think what Apple is doing is bad in the long run. Higher profits now, but limiting the numbers of phones sold overall.
Agreed.
I'm out. £35 for data this and doo-dah that. I won't use it. So, I want a plan or the option to PAYG.
I don't make £10 worth of calls or texts a month. But I'd pay extra for an unlocked phone. But I'd tell Apple to go Fek themselves at £1000.
Currently it's £269. Plus 35x18 months. That's an extra £700. Take off the amount I won't use? £500. That's alot. That's another two iPhones. Or half an iMac. Or...an upgrade to CS3 for me.
It's a touch greedy from o2 on the plan. They have plans much cheaper than this for other phones. I don't like contracts. I like PAYG. But I may consider a contract at £10. I don't want a bleed on my Bank account. I have enough direct debits as it sodding well is.
Comments
Don't think you deserve to be
I'm pleased to say that's true.
So...
You're pleased to say that "you don't deserve to be French" is true!
And I would gather that the person you were responding to is from Belgium (from his moniker) so give him at least credit for knowing his European geography and the habits of European shoppers better than most outsiders. Brussels - Paris using the T.G.V. might be shorter, time wise, than you daily commute, and comes at less than 250 Euros...
[Last Edit] OK, I'm the dummy, BRUssell lives in Germany. Wait, that makes him even more knowlegeable!
[Last last Edit] Darn, you're from Belgium, and from your locational description, I'd say Flemish. So you should know that what BRussell is saying is true
No probs. German living in Belgium actually. The price i quoted was for the Thalys High Speed Train from Cologne to Paris
But you're right Brussels-Paris about an hour by train, Brussels-London 1h51' Brussels-Cologne 1h40 (no proper high speed link yet, complicated geography...) makes for uite good cross-border shopping...
What kind of idiot would pay $1,100 (in US Dollars) for a phone? $400 is ridiculous. $1,100 is insane.
Also, I see why US carriers quote their usage time in minutes. 250 minutes per month sounds a lot better than 3 hours per month...
And I thought we had it bad here in the US?
What kind of idiot would pay $1,100 (in US Dollars) for a phone? $400 is ridiculous. $1,100 is insane.
Also, I see why US carriers quote their usage time in minutes. 250 minutes per month sounds a lot better than 3 hours per month...
$400 is probably what the phone is actually worth, so it's not ridiculous. The LG KE850 is going for $449.99. The Nokia N95 is going for $569.99.
The iPhone is by no means the most expensive phone. And, you still need to pay for your plan, or minutes, with the others. It's not as though you are saving anything, unless you want an expensive, complex, feature laden phone with a cheap featureless plan.
While you can choose a network, depending on whether it's CDMA or GSM, the truth is that none of the big networks are that much better overall.
No Englishman deserves such a fate.
Yeah rather stay an Englishman, their island syndrome, their francophobic "press" conditioning an idiotic aversion, between the others prejudices growing on the utter ignorance of some. They wouldn't want such kind of people anyway.
Yeah rather stay an Englishman, their island syndrome, their francophobic "press" conditioning an idiotic aversion, between the others prejudices growing on the utter ignorance of some. They wouldn't want such kind of people anyway.
The problem is that the French portray themselves as being something they are not. It's irksome.
We have this problem in the US these days in particular, with our present, wonderful, administration. Most everyone is also soured on us too.
Yeah rather stay an Englishman ...
How can I ever be anything but an Englishman? Even if no longer choose to live there. Which I don't.
Thanks for your lucid thoughts on my homeland.
I'll be curious to see if we get the same price gouging in Canada when iPhone FINALLY gets here. Something tells me it'll be so...
Canada is not run by socialists, there will be no unlock option.
$400 is probably what the phone is actually worth, so it's not ridiculous. The LG KE850 is going for $449.99. The Nokia N95 is going for $569.99.
As an example...
The N95 is £374.95 unlocked via Expansys - http://www.expansys.com/p.aspx?i=141579
The N95 8GB is £569.95 unlocked - http://www.expansys.com/p.aspx?i=158600
The unlocked French iPhone at ?749 is about ?50 less than the N95 8GB in Europe.
Prices include VAT.
Melgross, if N95s are going for $569.99 in the US unlocked then that's actually cheaper than Europe even after tax. Street price for an unlocked N95 here though is about £250/$500 inc tax, not £374.95 at a more mainstream place like Expansys.
The iPhone is by no means the most expensive phone. And, you still need to pay for your plan, or minutes, with the others. It's not as though you are saving anything, unless you want an expensive, complex, feature laden phone with a cheap featureless plan.
Actually, as we've pointed out in many of the threads so far, many Europeans see it the other way round. It's a featureless phone with an expensive plan if you buy it today. If you don't need large data usage and Cloud access in the UK, arguably even at ?749, you'd be much better off buying it unlocked and using a PAYG SIM from your favourite supplier and a cheaper £7.50 a month data addon.
While you can choose a network, depending on whether it's CDMA or GSM, the truth is that none of the big networks are that much better overall.
Not the case in Europe. We're all GSM here but some have very different plans, addons and freebies. Apple are bucking that trend by trying to lock in carriers and plans US style, and we don't like it.
As an example...
The N95 is £374.95 unlocked via Expansys - http://www.expansys.com/p.aspx?i=141579
The N95 8GB is £569.95 unlocked - http://www.expansys.com/p.aspx?i=158600
The unlocked French iPhone at €749 is about €50 less than the N95 8GB in Europe.
Prices include VAT.
Melgross, if N95s are going for $569.99 in the US unlocked then that's actually cheaper than Europe even after tax. Street price for an unlocked N95 here though is about £250/$500 inc tax, not £374.95 at a more mainstream place like Expansys.
Yes. The prices in Europe seem to be too high. This is the price from the J&R ad (big electronics dealer here in New York, but also have a web store) in the NY Times today.
Actually, as we've pointed out in many of the threads so far, many Europeans see it the other way round. It's a featureless phone with an expensive plan if you buy it today. If you don't need large data usage and Cloud access in the UK, arguably even at €749, you'd be much better off buying it unlocked and using a PAYG SIM from your favourite supplier and a cheaper £7.50 a month data addon.
I'm sure some do see it that way. But, over here, many of these full featured phones so loved in Europe are seen as clumsy, and complicated.
Different tastes Many Americans are not interested in learning these phones, so they don't sell well here. The iPhone is seen as having the right combination of performance, features, and ease of use.
After all, the iPod has been criticized for years as being feature=free by some techies, but most people prefer that. Most don't use those features, so they don't care.
Different philosophies. Neither is better.
Not the case in Europe. We're all GSM here but some have very different plans, addons and freebies. Apple are bucking that trend by trying to lock in carriers and plans US style, and we don't like it.
I completely agree with you there! I think what Apple is doing is bad in the long run. Higher profits now, but limiting the numbers of phones sold overall.
But, the one redeeming feature is the visual voicemail. Would companies re-do their software for that if they didn't have some time as an exclusive? I don't think they would. We could debate the value of that feature, of course, but it's still something to ponder.
By the way, you know me long enough to call me Mel.
As an example...
The N95 is £374.95 unlocked via Expansys - http://www.expansys.com/p.aspx?i=141579
The N95 8GB is £569.95 unlocked - http://www.expansys.com/p.aspx?i=158600
The unlocked French iPhone at ?749 is about ?50 less than the N95 8GB in Europe.
Prices include VAT.
It's not really fair to compare two models of phone like that - they have different features, different manufacturing/development costs, etc. It's well-established that a locked iPhone costs a lot more than locked phones of other models. So it stands to reason that the unlocked ones will also be expensive.
Based on my own searches, unlocked phones typically cost 120-300% more than the locked version of the same phone. Orange's pricing - an 87% increase - is cheap in comparison.
The real outrage here is the plan pricing - 4 hours of talk + ONLY FIFTY sms?? What??? for 49 euros which is a lot! That is almost $100AUD and we get way more value from even a $30 plan.
1100 bucks for a phone? Jeez Apple...
... and more along those lines.
Do bear in mind that a euro, in Europe, is just about worth the same in every day life as a dollar in the US. Apple's pricing has always been in line with that, usually Apple prices are converted 1:1 from dollars to euros. I have my doubts about the additional 100 euros, if that really is true then it's still a bit steep, but not so extreme as converting the street price to dollars makes it sound. See if you would consider 649 dollars a fair price for an unlocked iPhone. It's just that the current exchange rate is becoming ridiculous, there were times when the dollar was worth about 20% more than the Euro, it has just about halved since then.
Of course, I wouldn't complain if Apple were to take the exchange rate more into account, but as others have shown, the prices for the device are not extreme, in the current European market.
... and more along those lines.
Do bear in mind that a euro, in Europe, is just about worth the same in every day life as a dollar in the US. Apple's pricing has always been in line with that, usually Apple prices are converted 1:1 from dollars to euros. I have my doubts about the additional 100 euros, if that really is true then it's still a bit steep, but not so extreme as converting the street price to dollars makes it sound. See if you would consider 649 dollars a fair price for an unlocked iPhone. It's just that the current exchange rate is becoming ridiculous, there were times when the dollar was worth about 20% more than the Euro, it has just about halved since then.
Of course, I wouldn't complain if Apple were to take the exchange rate more into account, but as others have shown, the prices for the device are not extreme, in the current European market.
Or if you live in the UK they convert then put 30% on top
Canada (...removing BS political commentary...) will (have) no unlock option.
Even if you did unlock, there's no competing network in Canada using compatible (GSM) technology, so an unlocked phone is pointless for domestic customers.
And currently, even overseas travellers are out of luck. (Rogers doesn't have any published policy for providing unlock codes to customers for any reason whatsoever on any of its current phones.) But if you're lucky, Rogers will have roaming agreements in place allowing you privileged access to exclusive rates. If you're travelling to France, for example, then you can take advantage of wonderful roaming options from their partner Orange, with rates like $2.00 per minute for all incoming calls, $2.00 per minute to call back to Canada, and $1.00 per minute to call local numbers in France.
I'm sure some do see it that way. But, over here, many of these full featured phones so loved in Europe are seen as clumsy, and complicated.
Different tastes Many Americans are not interested in learning these phones, so they don't sell well here. The iPhone is seen as having the right combination of performance, features, and ease of use.
I think perhaps Europeans also use more of those features so learn them and use them regularly enough that they become second nature.
But, the one redeeming feature is the visual voicemail. Would companies re-do their software for that if they didn't have some time as an exclusive? I don't think they would. We could debate the value of that feature, of course, but it's still something to ponder.
I don't think it's very hard to implement. I'd be very surprised if it wasn't just a case of Apple providing an XServe or three to the carrier that acts like a mail server with the carrier only having to link that in with their existing voicemail system. Visual Voicemail works over a data connection IIRC, not the voice line.
It's not really fair to compare two models of phone like that - they have different features, different manufacturing/development costs, etc. It's well-established that a locked iPhone costs a lot more than locked phones of other models. So it stands to reason that the unlocked ones will also be expensive.
Do you honestly think an iPhone costs more to manufacture than an N95 8GB ?? I don't. The touch screen is perhaps expensive but then so are the other bits in the N95 that the iPhone doesn't have.
Based on my own searches, unlocked phones typically cost 120-300% more than the locked version of the same phone. Orange's pricing - an 87% increase - is cheap in comparison.
I think that is only because the locked iPhone is unusually highly priced to begin with. Work back 300% from the unlocked iPhone price and perhaps you'll arrive at a reasonable price for a locked iPhone comparable also with other similar phones.
Do you honestly think an iPhone costs more to manufacture than an N95 8GB ?? I don't. The touch screen is perhaps expensive but then so are the other bits in the N95 that the iPhone doesn't have.
You're ignoring my point. A locked iPhone costs $400 in the US, when other locked AT&T smartphones cost $150-200. If a locked iPhone costs twice what other smartphones cost, it stands to reason that an unlocked one will cost twice what some other unlocked smartphones cost.
All the discussions of "an iPhone contains 20 cents worth of used pinball parts, so Apple is ripping you off" were beaten to death when the device was first introduce months ago. If you want to continue that thread, please take it over there.
In this thread, the complaints have specifically been about the price difference between the locked and unlocked models. It is unreasonable to expect a phone with a much higher base-price to not also have a much-higher unlocked price.
I completely agree with you there! I think what Apple is doing is bad in the long run. Higher profits now, but limiting the numbers of phones sold overall.
Agreed.
I'm out. £35 for data this and doo-dah that. I won't use it. So, I want a plan or the option to PAYG.
I don't make £10 worth of calls or texts a month. But I'd pay extra for an unlocked phone. But I'd tell Apple to go Fek themselves at £1000.
Currently it's £269. Plus 35x18 months. That's an extra £700. Take off the amount I won't use? £500. That's alot. That's another two iPhones. Or half an iMac. Or...an upgrade to CS3 for me.
It's a touch greedy from o2 on the plan. They have plans much cheaper than this for other phones. I don't like contracts. I like PAYG. But I may consider a contract at £10. I don't want a bleed on my Bank account. I have enough direct debits as it sodding well is.
Apple. o2. Try harder.
Lemon Bon Bon.
Enthusiastic would be iPhone customer...
There may be quite a few UK buyers who agree with me.
Want to own the market? Cheaper contract. PAYG. I don't mind paying more on the phone.
It's just a revolutionary phone, folks.
Apple did the right thing with the price drop.
Now it's o2's turn.
Lemon Bon Bon.