No, it's difficult to have hand-eye co-ordination using a wacom whether you are an artist or not. You are drawing onto a slate while looking at a separate display. Anyway, despite the fact you wouldn't appreciate the ability to draw directly on screen doesn't mean to say no-one would. This is the same argument we get over and over about why a certain computer model shouldn't exist - you think because you have no use for it personally that there is no use for it universally and that is a false assumption.
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Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe
Sorry if I wasn't clear before, but what ACTUAL work would you do on it?
I presume you mean what actual use would require the touch display because it's clear that the computer will do everything you can do on a current laptop. One I mentioned is drawing and that alone is worth it. Another is for hospital staff who do their rounds and want a powerful unix system to take around with them. This cannot be done with a laptop and that market alone also justifies the product.
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Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe
where as a tablet will be open to all sorts of scratching issues.
I would see it having a thin metal flap that folds over the back and is held by magnets on both sides.
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Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe
but if it is in a smaller form factor, will the CPU not be crippled?
Normally they are in smaller machines but I think that's why they'll leave out the optical drive and use a larger screen.
I mean SERIOUSLY...a "tablet" pc would be a glorified PDA. It's not practical. What kind of serious work could you really DO on a tablet? Hmmm? The touch screen on an ipod touch or iphone make SENSE. Anything bigger than that...I think most people would prefer a laptop.
Personally, I would love a tablet with iPhone esque touch capabilities. I use a 12" Powerbook for school at the moment but a tablet with the same touch style seems like it would be nice for notes and carrying around. I could simply prop it on my legs and the desk edge and type on the screen (yes, I could just use a ultra portable, but i would love a tablet). Taking notes, typing, and anyother sort of "Serious work" would be exactly the same as a normal laptop just would be happening on a different platform. I think it's pretty much just preference, I love being able to flick and scroll on the iPhone and would love to on a tablet of some sort. Plus simply carrying it around, typing while laying down (I type outside often and being able to keep my head down rather than up would be a bit nicer. Plus being able to simply not have a keyboard for surfing the internet and only have it pop up when asked to would be nice.
Though, I would probably buy either tablet or ultra portable, I think a nice tablet would be nicer (for me at least).
No, it's difficult to have hand-eye co-ordination using a wacom whether you are an artist or not. You are drawing onto a slate while looking at a separate display. Anyway, despite the fact you wouldn't appreciate the ability to draw directly on screen doesn't mean to say no-one would. This is the same argument we get over and over about why a certain computer model shouldn't exist - you think because you have no use for it personally that there is no use for it universally and that is a false assumption.
and like wise just to say YOU would find it useful to use doesn't mean everyone else would, making it a niche product, not a great idea IMO.
I have at no time said I had no use for it, but I have asked what others might use it for, because I CAN see the limited niche areas it might occupy, which boils down to not enough for Apple to release it at this point
for the Drool factor alone I'd like to see it, but I don't see where it furthers Apples cause, and I'd almost wager that Steve thinks its cool too, but doesn't see where it would further Apples cause ... YET!
Try starting another thread about how the iMac should get touch screen, I for example am all for that, but there are countless people who are not, they have many valid points to make, and you know theres even some of them I agree with
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oh yeah, almost forgot, RE: Artist and hand to eye co-ordination, In my experience you are a pretty rubbish artist if you haven't got the fine motor skills associated with hand to eye co-ordination and to try and claim other wise is just begging to be laughed at I'm afraid.
oh yeah, almost forgot, RE: Artist and hand to eye co-ordination, In my experience you are a pretty rubbish artist if you haven't got the fine motor skills associated with hand to eye co-ordination and to try and claim other wise is just begging to be laughed at I'm afraid.
Am I to take this to mean that, because I would rather draw directly on a screen than dragging a wacom tablet around with me, that I am a rubbish artist? I think in another post in this thread, you said you would be for the imac having a touch screen. If that is the case, and I can paint directly on my imac screen, not using the tablet, does that make me a rubbish artist?
To me, wanting to paint or draw directly on my screen has nada to do with my co- ordination. Different artists have different preferences. What I personally imagine is having a "digital sketchbook" that I can take anywhere, and more importantly use anywhere. I have a laptop, a desktop and a tablet, and if someone suggested that I take my laptop and tablet on the train and try to use it, I'd laugh them out of the room. I have hundreds of designs, works for various clients in various stages of completion and such on about a million pieces of paper. I would love to have all this stored digitally on a tablet, and have access to everything, as well as being able to work on anything at anytime, and be able to show clients concepts, and be able to make changes to a design on the fly, or when inspiration strikes.
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Originally Posted by Marvin
I presume you mean what actual use would require the touch display because it's clear that the computer will do everything you can do on a current laptop. One I mentioned is drawing and that alone is worth it.
At least to you and I it is
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Originally Posted by Marvin
Another is for hospital staff who do their rounds and want a powerful unix system to take around with them. This cannot be done with a laptop and that market alone also justifies the product.
As I said before, people will find uses for the technology. They will find ways to get "serious work done" to me, this is an excellent example. Another, not so great one is, that since djs use ipods to "spin" music, perhaps they could "mix" "records" (with some kind of dj software hooking into itunes) and the touchscreen would allow them to "scratch" and mix with a turntable/mixer type interface.
In my original reply, I admitted that the market may be extremely small (perhaps even only me). Obviously I don't expect Apple to release a thing like this just because I think it would be awsome. (though you know it would be)
I thought this discussion was the exchange of ideas on why a tablet may or may not be a reasonable expectation when an ultra-portable is mentioned. I was attempting to give my own ideas, un-mainstream as they may be. Perhaps I'm in over my head. I'll politely bow out now.
One example would be traditional artists who would want to draw directly on screen and don't want to use a wacom with bad hand-eye co-ordination (they might have to make some sort of special pen though).
IMO a REAL artist is like a REAL musician in that they are gifted and also adaptable they can play in differing styles, so a REAL artist can adapt to differing mediums.
Do you REALLY want to limit your canvas to 8-10 inches? personally I would rather have a minimum A4 sized pad to draw on but a 24" or bigger canvas to LOOK at. of course I could just be a lot more visually orientated than the people here who are focusing on the "WOW COOL" factor.
A 24" iMac is a whole different deal to use as a canvas than a pokey little 8-10 inch tablet
No, it's difficult to have hand-eye co-ordination using a wacom whether you are an artist or not.
If every digital artist had a Cintiq instead of a tablet Wacom would be really rolling in the bucks. I don't really think this is as significant an issue as you make it out to be given the number of successful artists out there without a Cintiq.
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Originally Posted by Shiva
Am I to take this to mean that, because I would rather draw directly on a screen than dragging a wacom tablet around with me, that I am a rubbish artist? I think in another post in this thread, you said you would be for the imac having a touch screen. If that is the case, and I can paint directly on my imac screen, not using the tablet, does that make me a rubbish artist?
No, but it wouldn't make for very good workflow. A Cintiq as the primary monitor is kinda so-so. Mine sits off to the side for when I actually do something with it which isn't much anymore. I should really give it up for someone that would actually do some good with it.
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What I personally imagine is having a "digital sketchbook" that I can take anywhere, and more importantly use anywhere. I have a laptop, a desktop and a tablet, and if someone suggested that I take my laptop and tablet on the train and try to use it, I'd laugh them out of the room.
Well, you could try the ModBook. I have heard the early ones had some delay in the digitizer but they fixed that by doubling the update rate to 133 updates per second... There are a couple of convertibles with decent graphics but I forget which ones now.
Unfortunately most tablet PCs are only so-so.
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I would love to have all this stored digitally on a tablet, and have access to everything, as well as being able to work on anything at anytime, and be able to show clients concepts, and be able to make changes to a design on the fly, or when inspiration strikes.
So why don't you own a modbook? I doubt any Apple offering would have been any cheaper. If they had the Santa Rosa ones I might have considered one but I already have a couple GMA950 slates laying about gathering dust.
and like wise just to say YOU would find it useful to use doesn't mean everyone else would, making it a niche product, not a great idea IMO.
I have at no time said I had no use for it, but I have asked what others might use it for, because I CAN see the limited niche areas it might occupy, which boils down to not enough for Apple to release it at this point
True but most of Apple's hardware is already niche. The Mac Pro is a niche for people who have enough money to buy a quad Xeon workstation. The iMac is a niche for people who want an AIO. The Mini is niche for people who want what is basically a media center. The laptops they sell are the only products that are really well thought out.
A tablet is no less of a computer than a laptop so although the advantages of having a slate may only appeal to a smaller crowd, it would still be a desirable item. I think they would have to time the release right though.
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Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe
Try starting another thread about how the iMac should get touch screen, I for example am all for that, but there are countless people who are not, they have many valid points to make, and you know theres even some of them I agree with
Maybe if it wasn't for the fact that if you move your imac closer to you, there's a good chance it will yank the power lead out the back. It also doesn't tilt down enough and it's not going to be useful with the screen vertical. I'd say there are far more uses for touch screens on portable devices than desktops simply because a portable needs a better input mechanism that a keyboard and mouse. You just can't stand up or walk around while using a laptop.
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Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe
IMO a REAL artist is like a REAL musician in that they are gifted and also adaptable they can play in differing styles, so a REAL artist can adapt to differing mediums.
Yeah but what you are saying is equivalent to asking a keyboard player to play the trombone and then laughing at them and saying they aren't a good musician because they can't adapt or asking a sculptor to draw a cartoon.
Maybe not quite so far removed as that, it might be more like saying to a musician to play without a sheet of music in front of them. You can't just expect people to adapt to scenarios that you make up - even if they do adapt, it's not guaranteed they will be happy with the setup if it makes them less efficient.
Drawing directly onto the screen where the image appears is clearly better as that's how real drawing works - you don't draw onto a piece of paper and see the image somewhere else because that would be crazy - and wacom actually sell tablets like this but they are really expensive. To have it built in would be a big money saver to people.
It may only sell a small amount but if they can dominate that entire industry which I don't think anyone has then it's a constant source or income and it also means more publicity, more Mac software sales and more support requirements to support Macs, which benefits us all.
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Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe
Do you REALLY want to limit your canvas to 8-10 inches?
I would see it being 13". I also doubt that we'll see larger touch screens for a while because of cost and reliability. Plus, using such experimental technology on one of their best selling products is a bit risky if the technology fails. Imagine people sending back millions of iMacs if the touch stops working in a corner of the screen.
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Originally Posted by shiva
As I said before, people will find uses for the technology. They will find ways to get "serious work done" to me, this is an excellent example. Another, not so great one is, that since djs use ipods to "spin" music, perhaps they could "mix" "records" (with some kind of dj software hooking into itunes) and the touchscreen would allow them to "scratch" and mix with a turntable/mixer type interface.
That's actually a pretty good use for it because they'd have their music collection on it too. I know a couple of DJs and they'd probably love that. The only thing would be reliability. When you are at a live event, a computer freeze or software crash is not something you can risk so these events tend to favor special hardware.
It would still be pretty convenient to just be able to mix tracks from itunes directly though.
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Originally Posted by vinea
I don't really think this is as significant an issue as you make it out to be given the number of successful artists out there without a Cintiq.
They have to make do with what is worth buying but if you asked which one they'd like to have, they'd say the one that draws directly on screen. Also, it's true that some people can adapt to it very easily. But that's not to say if one artist can't then they aren't good at art.
If you were a student looking for a laptop + wacom and you saw that you could get a Mac for less and all-in-one, the choice would be easy and Macs are popular among artists anyway.
I feel bad for the people getting bashed for liking the idea of a tablet from Apple.
I have an Asus tablet PC. I am a university student. And I use it for all of my school work. I use the pen to write all of my notes for every class and it has worked great keeping me organized. Especially for those professors that love to put their lectures on PowerPoint slides, I can have the slides and write extra notes directly onto them. No need to print them out. And on days I would have forgot to print them for the following class, I can download them right onto my tablet before the class starts. Having a tablet is also necessary to draw diagrams faster than using a drawing program, and much better for writing math equations. Microsoft OneNote does some math equation pen to text conversion but its not great. Now if Apple had a program like OneNote bundled with a tablet. I know they would have math equations pen to text figured out.
Before I had a tablet I had piles and piles of saved notebooks from each of my classes. Now It's just my tablet and Microsoft OneNote.
Can you guess the one thing I wish I could have bought instead of the Windows Tablet I have? Yep... An Apple tablet.
So stop acting like its some kind of unneeded technology. There is more than just one buisness field that have the need for using a pen while not having to keep huge stacks of paperwork for all of their saved work/notes/drawings. The tablet solves that problem. When was the last time you wished you would have less paper sitting on your desk? more and more companies are going the way of less paper everyday and without tablets it would never be possible to go completely without it. Go green. Buy a tablet!
I have an Asus tablet PC. I am a university student. And I use it for all of my school work. I use the pen to write all of my notes for every class and it has worked great keeping me organized. Especially for those professors that love to put their lectures on PowerPoint slides, I can have the slides and write extra notes directly onto them. No need to print them out.
Before I had a tablet I had piles and piles of saved notebooks from each of my classes. Now It's just my tablet and Microsoft OneNote.
Can you guess the one thing I wish I could have bought instead of the Windows Tablet I have? Yep... An Apple tablet.
I remember wishing I had that at uni too. Even though I had a laptop, I had to take notes by hand and I tried to digitize them afterwards. It was fine typing them out until I got to the diagrams. When you have all sorts of crazy physics drawings, circuit boards etc, using the mouse is so much slower than just being able to draw the picture directly. Scanning could have been an option but I didn't have one and I think they were expensive at the time.
I think this product would be quite popular among students because it would also be light. Even a 12" ibook (which I had) gets tiresome if you have to carry it on your back the whole day along with your books.
I would see it being 13". I also doubt that we'll see larger touch screens for a while because of cost and reliability. Plus, using such experimental technology on one of their best selling products is a bit risky if the technology fails. Imagine people sending back millions of iMacs if the touch stops working in a corner of the screen.
Well for the graphic artist market you don't want a (multi)touch screen unless your form of art is fingerpainting. You CAN put both a digitzer (stylus) and a capacitance sensor (touch) into a slate but the cost would be high though. It would make current slates and even the Cintiq look rather thrifty in comparison.
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They have to make do with what is worth buying but if you asked which one they'd like to have, they'd say the one that draws directly on screen. Also, it's true that some people can adapt to it very easily. But that's not to say if one artist can't then they aren't good at art.
If you were a student looking for a laptop + wacom and you saw that you could get a Mac for less and all-in-one, the choice would be easy and Macs are popular among artists anyway.
Depends on whether you think Apple is more likely to go with a stylus or touch in a tablet I guess. I would prefer a stylus for a tablet. Touch would be sexier. Both would be best but adds thickness, weight, power and cost.
Given Jobs, they likely would wait until both together was more feasible which might mean neither this go around and no tablet. "Just" an ultraportable.
So your top argument FOR a tablet pc is to watch porn more easily in bed? Um....Okaaaaaaaaaay.
you're being utterly absurd if you don't think thats a relative point. thats like saying all you'll use the internet for is to download illegal content or use their iphones to play pong. I'm sorry if what people do with their machines offends you but the average consumer will most definitely watch porn more comfortably and therefor push the market for consumer tablets, you arrogant self-righteous mac user...
now I think its obvious that tablets are happening (now even) but apple hasn't come out with something because of all the anal anti-touchscreeners who want keys... I'm sure you'll always have usb, but I doubt apple will release a tablet, it will probably be similar to the nintendo ds, or the current powerbooks, just replacing the touchscreen with a lcd, or more ambitiously the whole keyboard, porting something similar to dashboard, running a mini-os...
but if you can't figure out that being able to reconstruct your keyboard to suit you, to have automated keybuilders, to be able to grab sliders and piano keys and videos and drag them to your virtual keyboard, than you don't really deserve this basic technology...
incidentally I've talked to apple people, its not happening for awhile, because apple sucks.. sorry apple but you do... heres what happens, they pay for some kids in college who take a lot of acid and cactus to build a linux box that costs them nothing and apple not much, -apple gets a sweet computer with a touchscreen keyboard and spends the next 18-36 months degenerating it into something like the iphone, -with little to no uses whatsoever...
but then those kids buy back the chinese greymarket touch-screens and aren't we all glad apple made os x read linux files and run on intel...
.................... I'm sorry if what people do with their machines offends you but the average consumer will most definitely watch porn more comfortably and therefor push the market for consumer tablets, you arrogant self-righteous mac user...
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ahhh aha ha.. Oh man did that make me laugh. The porn user is going to push the market to making tablets.
you're being utterly absurd if you don't think thats a relative point. thats like saying all you'll use the internet for is to download illegal content or use their iphones to play pong. I'm sorry if what people do with their machines offends you but the average consumer will most definitely watch porn more comfortably and therefor push the market for consumer tablets, you arrogant self-righteous mac user...
now I think its obvious that tablets are happening (now even) but apple hasn't come out with something because of all the anal anti-touchscreeners who want keys... I'm sure you'll always have usb, but I doubt apple will release a tablet, it will probably be similar to the nintendo ds, or the current powerbooks, just replacing the touchscreen with a lcd, or more ambitiously the whole keyboard, porting something similar to dashboard, running a mini-os...
but if you can't figure out that being able to reconstruct your keyboard to suit you, to have automated keybuilders, to be able to grab sliders and piano keys and videos and drag them to your virtual keyboard, than you don't really deserve this basic technology...
incidentally I've talked to apple people, its not happening for awhile, because apple sucks.. sorry apple but you do... heres what happens, they pay for some kids in college who take a lot of acid and cactus to build a linux box that costs them nothing and apple not much, -apple gets a sweet computer with a touchscreen keyboard and spends the next 18-36 months degenerating it into something like the iphone, -with little to no uses whatsoever...
but then those kids buy back the chinese greymarket touch-screens and aren't we all glad apple made os x read linux files and run on intel...
ahhh aha ha.. Oh man did that make me laugh. The porn user is going to push the market to making tablets.
That is freaking priceless.
Well he may have a point as a tablet would be much easier to clean afterward. After all we are talking about one glass surface and if he is familiar with glass surfaces he might to be right at home.
Well he may have a point as a tablet would be much easier to clean afterward. After all we are talking about one glass surface and if he is familiar with glass surfaces he might to be right at home.
The same people who are begging Apple for a tablet will be the first ones to complain about:
1. "My screen broke! It's not protected like a notebook!"
Extra care will be required when transporting it, and the damage rate will be much greater than notebooks.
2. "Too much glare!".
Notebooks and desktop monitors are angled more or less vertically; a tablet will reflect ceiling lights and the sun a lot more.
3. "The battery life sucks!"
A notebook can afford a thicker shell since the screen is separate. To make a compelling, slender tablet a smaller battery is mandated. Point is, even as battery technology advances, a tablet will have less battery life than a notebook, or be as thick as a notebook. And people will certainly complain about a thick tablet.
Those are just off the top of my head. Many more complaints will surface, none of which ever seem to be contemplated by the people most ravenous for such a product. It happens time and time again.
The same people who are begging Apple for a tablet will be the first ones to complain about:
1. "My screen broke! It's not protected like a notebook!"
Extra care will be required when transporting it, and the damage rate will be much greater than notebooks.
That all depends on what type of glass they use. If it is glass. In any event on devices of the size I'm hoping for it won't be any more of an issue than it is on the Touch/iPhone.
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2. "Too much glare!".
Notebooks and desktop monitors are angled more or less vertically; a tablet will reflect ceiling lights and the sun a lot more.
Glare can be controlled if Apple wants to invest in the coating technologies. Even if they don't the tablet can be instantly oriented in a number of different ways far easier than a laptop. That hinged joint on a laptop really limits what you can do with it.
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3. "The battery life sucks!"
A notebook can afford a thicker shell since the screen is separate. To make a compelling, slender tablet a smaller battery is mandated. Point is, even as battery technology advances, a tablet will have less battery life than a notebook, or be as thick as a notebook. And people will certainly complain about a thick tablet.
That depends entirely on what they use for a processor and chip set. IF they go all ARM devices it can have a very long battery life. It is not uncommon to see 12 hrs battery time on some tablets. Of course Apple will go for the latest battery technology and will try to limit the size of the battery based on desired bulk. Or maybe the desire to limit thickness.
In a sense though you are right the battery will be an issue. It also needs to be replaceable if they expect corporate uptake.
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Those are just off the top of my head. Many more complaints will surface, none of which ever seem to be contemplated by the people most ravenous for such a product. It happens time and time again.
There is nothing wrong with complaints! That can make the world a better place to be. Take the Touch for instance, an excellent product but one I haven't yet sprung money on. Because - well I have complaints. Since many of those complaints are software related they will eventually go away (I Hope), but I express those complaints from time to time so that Apple knows what people are thinking.
The point is that what I initially see as an issue doesn't mean any thing with respect to purchasing a device in the future. Software changes and gets improved, hopefully taking into account user demands. There are a few hardware tweaks of interest too. Hardware of course is much more difficult to update in the field. The limitations I find there are a different issue as one either takes the device as is or waits for something better. Even if you initially wait for better hardware the attractiveness of the device can wear on you. So yeah I hope to see a new product and I expect to hear and see complaints. I believe they are good for Apple and they are certainly good for me because they make me look at the hardware with a more critical eye.
In many ways it is a lot like buying a new car. You want to know what people like and dislike about it. Especially the complaints and how they relate to your use of a set of wheels. Like on a tablet or Cell you should ask your self is the complaint about the lack of flashlight mode important to me?
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No, it's difficult to have hand-eye co-ordination using a wacom whether you are an artist or not. You are drawing onto a slate while looking at a separate display. Anyway, despite the fact you wouldn't appreciate the ability to draw directly on screen doesn't mean to say no-one would. This is the same argument we get over and over about why a certain computer model shouldn't exist - you think because you have no use for it personally that there is no use for it universally and that is a false assumption.
Sorry if I wasn't clear before, but what ACTUAL work would you do on it?
I presume you mean what actual use would require the touch display because it's clear that the computer will do everything you can do on a current laptop. One I mentioned is drawing and that alone is worth it. Another is for hospital staff who do their rounds and want a powerful unix system to take around with them. This cannot be done with a laptop and that market alone also justifies the product.
where as a tablet will be open to all sorts of scratching issues.
I would see it having a thin metal flap that folds over the back and is held by magnets on both sides.
but if it is in a smaller form factor, will the CPU not be crippled?
Normally they are in smaller machines but I think that's why they'll leave out the optical drive and use a larger screen.
I mean SERIOUSLY...a "tablet" pc would be a glorified PDA. It's not practical. What kind of serious work could you really DO on a tablet? Hmmm? The touch screen on an ipod touch or iphone make SENSE. Anything bigger than that...I think most people would prefer a laptop.
Personally, I would love a tablet with iPhone esque touch capabilities. I use a 12" Powerbook for school at the moment but a tablet with the same touch style seems like it would be nice for notes and carrying around. I could simply prop it on my legs and the desk edge and type on the screen (yes, I could just use a ultra portable, but i would love a tablet). Taking notes, typing, and anyother sort of "Serious work" would be exactly the same as a normal laptop just would be happening on a different platform. I think it's pretty much just preference, I love being able to flick and scroll on the iPhone and would love to on a tablet of some sort. Plus simply carrying it around, typing while laying down (I type outside often and being able to keep my head down rather than up would be a bit nicer. Plus being able to simply not have a keyboard for surfing the internet and only have it pop up when asked to would be nice.
Though, I would probably buy either tablet or ultra portable, I think a nice tablet would be nicer (for me at least).
No, it's difficult to have hand-eye co-ordination using a wacom whether you are an artist or not. You are drawing onto a slate while looking at a separate display. Anyway, despite the fact you wouldn't appreciate the ability to draw directly on screen doesn't mean to say no-one would. This is the same argument we get over and over about why a certain computer model shouldn't exist - you think because you have no use for it personally that there is no use for it universally and that is a false assumption.
and like wise just to say YOU would find it useful to use doesn't mean everyone else would, making it a niche product, not a great idea IMO.
I have at no time said I had no use for it, but I have asked what others might use it for, because I CAN see the limited niche areas it might occupy, which boils down to not enough for Apple to release it at this point
for the Drool factor alone I'd like to see it, but I don't see where it furthers Apples cause, and I'd almost wager that Steve thinks its cool too, but doesn't see where it would further Apples cause ... YET!
Try starting another thread about how the iMac should get touch screen, I for example am all for that, but there are countless people who are not, they have many valid points to make, and you know theres even some of them I agree with
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oh yeah, almost forgot, RE: Artist and hand to eye co-ordination, In my experience you are a pretty rubbish artist if you haven't got the fine motor skills associated with hand to eye co-ordination and to try and claim other wise is just begging to be laughed at I'm afraid.
oh yeah, almost forgot, RE: Artist and hand to eye co-ordination, In my experience you are a pretty rubbish artist if you haven't got the fine motor skills associated with hand to eye co-ordination and to try and claim other wise is just begging to be laughed at I'm afraid.
Am I to take this to mean that, because I would rather draw directly on a screen than dragging a wacom tablet around with me, that I am a rubbish artist? I think in another post in this thread, you said you would be for the imac having a touch screen. If that is the case, and I can paint directly on my imac screen, not using the tablet, does that make me a rubbish artist?
To me, wanting to paint or draw directly on my screen has nada to do with my co- ordination. Different artists have different preferences. What I personally imagine is having a "digital sketchbook" that I can take anywhere, and more importantly use anywhere. I have a laptop, a desktop and a tablet, and if someone suggested that I take my laptop and tablet on the train and try to use it, I'd laugh them out of the room. I have hundreds of designs, works for various clients in various stages of completion and such on about a million pieces of paper. I would love to have all this stored digitally on a tablet, and have access to everything, as well as being able to work on anything at anytime, and be able to show clients concepts, and be able to make changes to a design on the fly, or when inspiration strikes.
I presume you mean what actual use would require the touch display because it's clear that the computer will do everything you can do on a current laptop. One I mentioned is drawing and that alone is worth it.
At least to you and I it is
Another is for hospital staff who do their rounds and want a powerful unix system to take around with them. This cannot be done with a laptop and that market alone also justifies the product.
As I said before, people will find uses for the technology. They will find ways to get "serious work done" to me, this is an excellent example. Another, not so great one is, that since djs use ipods to "spin" music, perhaps they could "mix" "records" (with some kind of dj software hooking into itunes) and the touchscreen would allow them to "scratch" and mix with a turntable/mixer type interface.
In my original reply, I admitted that the market may be extremely small (perhaps even only me). Obviously I don't expect Apple to release a thing like this just because I think it would be awsome. (though you know it would be)
I thought this discussion was the exchange of ideas on why a tablet may or may not be a reasonable expectation when an ultra-portable is mentioned. I was attempting to give my own ideas, un-mainstream as they may be. Perhaps I'm in over my head. I'll politely bow out now.
Originally Posted by Marvin
One example would be traditional artists who would want to draw directly on screen and don't want to use a wacom with bad hand-eye co-ordination (they might have to make some sort of special pen though).
IMO a REAL artist is like a REAL musician in that they are gifted and also adaptable they can play in differing styles, so a REAL artist can adapt to differing mediums.
Do you REALLY want to limit your canvas to 8-10 inches? personally I would rather have a minimum A4 sized pad to draw on but a 24" or bigger canvas to LOOK at. of course I could just be a lot more visually orientated than the people here who are focusing on the "WOW COOL" factor.
A 24" iMac is a whole different deal to use as a canvas than a pokey little 8-10 inch tablet
No, it's difficult to have hand-eye co-ordination using a wacom whether you are an artist or not.
If every digital artist had a Cintiq instead of a tablet Wacom would be really rolling in the bucks. I don't really think this is as significant an issue as you make it out to be given the number of successful artists out there without a Cintiq.
Am I to take this to mean that, because I would rather draw directly on a screen than dragging a wacom tablet around with me, that I am a rubbish artist? I think in another post in this thread, you said you would be for the imac having a touch screen. If that is the case, and I can paint directly on my imac screen, not using the tablet, does that make me a rubbish artist?
No, but it wouldn't make for very good workflow. A Cintiq as the primary monitor is kinda so-so. Mine sits off to the side for when I actually do something with it which isn't much anymore. I should really give it up for someone that would actually do some good with it.
What I personally imagine is having a "digital sketchbook" that I can take anywhere, and more importantly use anywhere. I have a laptop, a desktop and a tablet, and if someone suggested that I take my laptop and tablet on the train and try to use it, I'd laugh them out of the room.
Well, you could try the ModBook. I have heard the early ones had some delay in the digitizer but they fixed that by doubling the update rate to 133 updates per second... There are a couple of convertibles with decent graphics but I forget which ones now.
Unfortunately most tablet PCs are only so-so.
I would love to have all this stored digitally on a tablet, and have access to everything, as well as being able to work on anything at anytime, and be able to show clients concepts, and be able to make changes to a design on the fly, or when inspiration strikes.
So why don't you own a modbook? I doubt any Apple offering would have been any cheaper. If they had the Santa Rosa ones I might have considered one but I already have a couple GMA950 slates laying about gathering dust.
and like wise just to say YOU would find it useful to use doesn't mean everyone else would, making it a niche product, not a great idea IMO.
I have at no time said I had no use for it, but I have asked what others might use it for, because I CAN see the limited niche areas it might occupy, which boils down to not enough for Apple to release it at this point
True but most of Apple's hardware is already niche. The Mac Pro is a niche for people who have enough money to buy a quad Xeon workstation. The iMac is a niche for people who want an AIO. The Mini is niche for people who want what is basically a media center. The laptops they sell are the only products that are really well thought out.
A tablet is no less of a computer than a laptop so although the advantages of having a slate may only appeal to a smaller crowd, it would still be a desirable item. I think they would have to time the release right though.
Try starting another thread about how the iMac should get touch screen, I for example am all for that, but there are countless people who are not, they have many valid points to make, and you know theres even some of them I agree with
Maybe if it wasn't for the fact that if you move your imac closer to you, there's a good chance it will yank the power lead out the back. It also doesn't tilt down enough and it's not going to be useful with the screen vertical. I'd say there are far more uses for touch screens on portable devices than desktops simply because a portable needs a better input mechanism that a keyboard and mouse. You just can't stand up or walk around while using a laptop.
IMO a REAL artist is like a REAL musician in that they are gifted and also adaptable they can play in differing styles, so a REAL artist can adapt to differing mediums.
Yeah but what you are saying is equivalent to asking a keyboard player to play the trombone and then laughing at them and saying they aren't a good musician because they can't adapt or asking a sculptor to draw a cartoon.
Maybe not quite so far removed as that, it might be more like saying to a musician to play without a sheet of music in front of them. You can't just expect people to adapt to scenarios that you make up - even if they do adapt, it's not guaranteed they will be happy with the setup if it makes them less efficient.
Drawing directly onto the screen where the image appears is clearly better as that's how real drawing works - you don't draw onto a piece of paper and see the image somewhere else because that would be crazy - and wacom actually sell tablets like this but they are really expensive. To have it built in would be a big money saver to people.
It may only sell a small amount but if they can dominate that entire industry which I don't think anyone has then it's a constant source or income and it also means more publicity, more Mac software sales and more support requirements to support Macs, which benefits us all.
Do you REALLY want to limit your canvas to 8-10 inches?
I would see it being 13". I also doubt that we'll see larger touch screens for a while because of cost and reliability. Plus, using such experimental technology on one of their best selling products is a bit risky if the technology fails. Imagine people sending back millions of iMacs if the touch stops working in a corner of the screen.
As I said before, people will find uses for the technology. They will find ways to get "serious work done" to me, this is an excellent example. Another, not so great one is, that since djs use ipods to "spin" music, perhaps they could "mix" "records" (with some kind of dj software hooking into itunes) and the touchscreen would allow them to "scratch" and mix with a turntable/mixer type interface.
That's actually a pretty good use for it because they'd have their music collection on it too. I know a couple of DJs and they'd probably love that. The only thing would be reliability. When you are at a live event, a computer freeze or software crash is not something you can risk so these events tend to favor special hardware.
It would still be pretty convenient to just be able to mix tracks from itunes directly though.
I don't really think this is as significant an issue as you make it out to be given the number of successful artists out there without a Cintiq.
They have to make do with what is worth buying but if you asked which one they'd like to have, they'd say the one that draws directly on screen. Also, it's true that some people can adapt to it very easily. But that's not to say if one artist can't then they aren't good at art.
If you were a student looking for a laptop + wacom and you saw that you could get a Mac for less and all-in-one, the choice would be easy and Macs are popular among artists anyway.
I have an Asus tablet PC. I am a university student. And I use it for all of my school work. I use the pen to write all of my notes for every class and it has worked great keeping me organized. Especially for those professors that love to put their lectures on PowerPoint slides, I can have the slides and write extra notes directly onto them. No need to print them out. And on days I would have forgot to print them for the following class, I can download them right onto my tablet before the class starts. Having a tablet is also necessary to draw diagrams faster than using a drawing program, and much better for writing math equations. Microsoft OneNote does some math equation pen to text conversion but its not great. Now if Apple had a program like OneNote bundled with a tablet. I know they would have math equations pen to text figured out.
Before I had a tablet I had piles and piles of saved notebooks from each of my classes. Now It's just my tablet and Microsoft OneNote.
Can you guess the one thing I wish I could have bought instead of the Windows Tablet I have? Yep... An Apple tablet.
So stop acting like its some kind of unneeded technology. There is more than just one buisness field that have the need for using a pen while not having to keep huge stacks of paperwork for all of their saved work/notes/drawings. The tablet solves that problem. When was the last time you wished you would have less paper sitting on your desk? more and more companies are going the way of less paper everyday and without tablets it would never be possible to go completely without it. Go green. Buy a tablet!
long post
Congrats, you just made my day, and renewed my faith
Have you ever thought about getting a modbook? Then you could have an Apple tablet!! I wish I weren't cheap..
I have an Asus tablet PC. I am a university student. And I use it for all of my school work. I use the pen to write all of my notes for every class and it has worked great keeping me organized. Especially for those professors that love to put their lectures on PowerPoint slides, I can have the slides and write extra notes directly onto them. No need to print them out.
Before I had a tablet I had piles and piles of saved notebooks from each of my classes. Now It's just my tablet and Microsoft OneNote.
Can you guess the one thing I wish I could have bought instead of the Windows Tablet I have? Yep... An Apple tablet.
I remember wishing I had that at uni too. Even though I had a laptop, I had to take notes by hand and I tried to digitize them afterwards. It was fine typing them out until I got to the diagrams. When you have all sorts of crazy physics drawings, circuit boards etc, using the mouse is so much slower than just being able to draw the picture directly. Scanning could have been an option but I didn't have one and I think they were expensive at the time.
I think this product would be quite popular among students because it would also be light. Even a 12" ibook (which I had) gets tiresome if you have to carry it on your back the whole day along with your books.
I would see it being 13". I also doubt that we'll see larger touch screens for a while because of cost and reliability. Plus, using such experimental technology on one of their best selling products is a bit risky if the technology fails. Imagine people sending back millions of iMacs if the touch stops working in a corner of the screen.
Well for the graphic artist market you don't want a (multi)touch screen unless your form of art is fingerpainting. You CAN put both a digitzer (stylus) and a capacitance sensor (touch) into a slate but the cost would be high though. It would make current slates and even the Cintiq look rather thrifty in comparison.
They have to make do with what is worth buying but if you asked which one they'd like to have, they'd say the one that draws directly on screen. Also, it's true that some people can adapt to it very easily. But that's not to say if one artist can't then they aren't good at art.
If you were a student looking for a laptop + wacom and you saw that you could get a Mac for less and all-in-one, the choice would be easy and Macs are popular among artists anyway.
Depends on whether you think Apple is more likely to go with a stylus or touch in a tablet I guess. I would prefer a stylus for a tablet. Touch would be sexier. Both would be best but adds thickness, weight, power and cost.
Given Jobs, they likely would wait until both together was more feasible which might mean neither this go around and no tablet. "Just" an ultraportable.
So your top argument FOR a tablet pc is to watch porn more easily in bed? Um....Okaaaaaaaaaay.
you're being utterly absurd if you don't think thats a relative point. thats like saying all you'll use the internet for is to download illegal content or use their iphones to play pong. I'm sorry if what people do with their machines offends you but the average consumer will most definitely watch porn more comfortably and therefor push the market for consumer tablets, you arrogant self-righteous mac user...
now I think its obvious that tablets are happening (now even) but apple hasn't come out with something because of all the anal anti-touchscreeners who want keys... I'm sure you'll always have usb, but I doubt apple will release a tablet, it will probably be similar to the nintendo ds, or the current powerbooks, just replacing the touchscreen with a lcd, or more ambitiously the whole keyboard, porting something similar to dashboard, running a mini-os...
but if you can't figure out that being able to reconstruct your keyboard to suit you, to have automated keybuilders, to be able to grab sliders and piano keys and videos and drag them to your virtual keyboard, than you don't really deserve this basic technology...
incidentally I've talked to apple people, its not happening for awhile, because apple sucks.. sorry apple but you do... heres what happens, they pay for some kids in college who take a lot of acid and cactus to build a linux box that costs them nothing and apple not much, -apple gets a sweet computer with a touchscreen keyboard and spends the next 18-36 months degenerating it into something like the iphone, -with little to no uses whatsoever...
but then those kids buy back the chinese greymarket touch-screens and aren't we all glad apple made os x read linux files and run on intel...
.................... I'm sorry if what people do with their machines offends you but the average consumer will most definitely watch porn more comfortably and therefor push the market for consumer tablets, you arrogant self-righteous mac user...
.................................
That is freaking priceless.
That is freaking priceless.
That entire post was hilarious.
you're being utterly absurd if you don't think thats a relative point. thats like saying all you'll use the internet for is to download illegal content or use their iphones to play pong. I'm sorry if what people do with their machines offends you but the average consumer will most definitely watch porn more comfortably and therefor push the market for consumer tablets, you arrogant self-righteous mac user...
now I think its obvious that tablets are happening (now even) but apple hasn't come out with something because of all the anal anti-touchscreeners who want keys... I'm sure you'll always have usb, but I doubt apple will release a tablet, it will probably be similar to the nintendo ds, or the current powerbooks, just replacing the touchscreen with a lcd, or more ambitiously the whole keyboard, porting something similar to dashboard, running a mini-os...
but if you can't figure out that being able to reconstruct your keyboard to suit you, to have automated keybuilders, to be able to grab sliders and piano keys and videos and drag them to your virtual keyboard, than you don't really deserve this basic technology...
incidentally I've talked to apple people, its not happening for awhile, because apple sucks.. sorry apple but you do... heres what happens, they pay for some kids in college who take a lot of acid and cactus to build a linux box that costs them nothing and apple not much, -apple gets a sweet computer with a touchscreen keyboard and spends the next 18-36 months degenerating it into something like the iphone, -with little to no uses whatsoever...
but then those kids buy back the chinese greymarket touch-screens and aren't we all glad apple made os x read linux files and run on intel...
What in the name of fuck are you babbling about?
"You" have taken some acid it seems
What in the name of fuck are you babbling about?
"You" have taken some acid it seems
Again, agreed.
That post had 'douche' written all over it.
That is freaking priceless.
Well he may have a point as a tablet would be much easier to clean afterward. After all we are talking about one glass surface and if he is familiar with glass surfaces he might to be right at home.
Well he may have a point as a tablet would be much easier to clean afterward. After all we are talking about one glass surface and if he is familiar with glass surfaces he might to be right at home.
Your a sick man wizard.
1. "My screen broke! It's not protected like a notebook!"
Extra care will be required when transporting it, and the damage rate will be much greater than notebooks.
2. "Too much glare!".
Notebooks and desktop monitors are angled more or less vertically; a tablet will reflect ceiling lights and the sun a lot more.
3. "The battery life sucks!"
A notebook can afford a thicker shell since the screen is separate. To make a compelling, slender tablet a smaller battery is mandated. Point is, even as battery technology advances, a tablet will have less battery life than a notebook, or be as thick as a notebook. And people will certainly complain about a thick tablet.
Those are just off the top of my head. Many more complaints will surface, none of which ever seem to be contemplated by the people most ravenous for such a product. It happens time and time again.
The same people who are begging Apple for a tablet will be the first ones to complain about:
1. "My screen broke! It's not protected like a notebook!"
Extra care will be required when transporting it, and the damage rate will be much greater than notebooks.
That all depends on what type of glass they use. If it is glass. In any event on devices of the size I'm hoping for it won't be any more of an issue than it is on the Touch/iPhone.
2. "Too much glare!".
Notebooks and desktop monitors are angled more or less vertically; a tablet will reflect ceiling lights and the sun a lot more.
Glare can be controlled if Apple wants to invest in the coating technologies. Even if they don't the tablet can be instantly oriented in a number of different ways far easier than a laptop. That hinged joint on a laptop really limits what you can do with it.
3. "The battery life sucks!"
A notebook can afford a thicker shell since the screen is separate. To make a compelling, slender tablet a smaller battery is mandated. Point is, even as battery technology advances, a tablet will have less battery life than a notebook, or be as thick as a notebook. And people will certainly complain about a thick tablet.
That depends entirely on what they use for a processor and chip set. IF they go all ARM devices it can have a very long battery life. It is not uncommon to see 12 hrs battery time on some tablets. Of course Apple will go for the latest battery technology and will try to limit the size of the battery based on desired bulk. Or maybe the desire to limit thickness.
In a sense though you are right the battery will be an issue. It also needs to be replaceable if they expect corporate uptake.
Those are just off the top of my head. Many more complaints will surface, none of which ever seem to be contemplated by the people most ravenous for such a product. It happens time and time again.
There is nothing wrong with complaints! That can make the world a better place to be. Take the Touch for instance, an excellent product but one I haven't yet sprung money on. Because - well I have complaints. Since many of those complaints are software related they will eventually go away (I Hope), but I express those complaints from time to time so that Apple knows what people are thinking.
The point is that what I initially see as an issue doesn't mean any thing with respect to purchasing a device in the future. Software changes and gets improved, hopefully taking into account user demands. There are a few hardware tweaks of interest too. Hardware of course is much more difficult to update in the field. The limitations I find there are a different issue as one either takes the device as is or waits for something better. Even if you initially wait for better hardware the attractiveness of the device can wear on you. So yeah I hope to see a new product and I expect to hear and see complaints. I believe they are good for Apple and they are certainly good for me because they make me look at the hardware with a more critical eye.
In many ways it is a lot like buying a new car. You want to know what people like and dislike about it. Especially the complaints and how they relate to your use of a set of wheels. Like on a tablet or Cell you should ask your self is the complaint about the lack of flashlight mode important to me?
Dave