It's not the customers job to run the restaurant. That's for the staff to do. It's also their job to show the customer an enjoyable time that would, one hopes, results in a larger tip. That may include smiling.
If you don't think people shouldn't be seated 10 minutes before closing then its up to the restaurant not to seat them. It's not my job to know. If I walk in and ask to be seated then that's that. Don't take it out on me that the manager seated me.
If wait staff needs to know about check splitting up front then they should ask up front.
If kids are such a nightmare then don't allow kids. While I'm at it. Don't serve meals over my kids. Don't put scalding hot meal right in front of a two year old. Have some fucking sense. Have a straw in your pocket when you bring the apple juice.
If you don't want to accept cash then don't. Don't blame me because I went to the ATM before coming to your place.
If I tell the server I'm in a hurry they can ask how much time I have and offer to take my order right there. When they bring the meal they can ask if I want the check. What they shouldn't do is leave me waiting after I've finished and then ask if I want fucking dessert!
I'm at your mercy Shawn. You run the restaurant and not me. Anything you can figure out to make my time more enjoyable will result in more money from my pocket.
All joking aside, this thread is *primarily* about how customer actions in a restaurant affect the level and efficiency of service--regardless of the best efforts of the staff. It's also dabbles in what I (and others in response) feel is the proper tipping standard. And lastly it's an attempt to get people to think about just generally having a little empathy and patience for the restaurant staff in the context of what we all know about the traditional customer-staff relationship. A little more organization would have helped, but I think I did a good job of clearing things up in my subsequent posts. Give 'em a read perhaps!
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20% should be a standard tip, not something awarded only for exceptional service. It also should not be given on a merit basis because good service in a busy restaurant is more dependent on luck than merit.
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I'm increasingly convinced that good service is really a matter of luck. If you knew how chaotic kitchens are on a busy night at an average restaurant, you'd be more sympathetic to this view.
Customer actions = good service.
Staff actions = luck.
I think my head just exploded from the incongruence here.
It's not the customers job to run the restaurant. That's for the staff to do. It's also their job to show the customer an enjoyable time that would, one hopes, results in a larger tip. That may include smiling.
Of course it's not the customer's job to "run" the restaurant.
I'm not suggesting it is.
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Originally Posted by mydo
If you don't think people shouldn't be seated 10 minutes before closing then its up to the restaurant not to seat them.
I do not think closing times are not up to the restaurant.
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Originally Posted by mydo
It's not my job to know [closing times]. If I walk in and ask to be seated then that's that. Don't take it out on me that the manager seated me.
I find it very difficult to believe you don't check posted closing times before entering a restaurant that late at night. If it's 10-11 on weekday nights, that's the time I think everyone realizes most restaurants are closed or closing. If it's around 11-12 on weekend nights, then most people understand the same thing.
Whether the employees "take it out on you" is another matter that I sympathize completely with the employees about. The staff will not give you very good service, will not care about whether they give you very good service, and will face very little repercussions from management as long as they don't screw up your order.
But at the very least out of basic consideration for other people: (1) order quickly because the kitchen closes, (2) order something that doesn't take long to make, (3) don't linger after closing. The restaurant does not make money by staying open after closing for you.
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Originally Posted by mydo
If wait staff needs to know about check splitting up front then they should ask up front.
The point is that *if* you decide to split a check in a large group after you've received all your food and after-dinner items, *then* understand two things: (1) to do this will take time-- more time than if you told your server up front about your payment plan and (2) mistakes are far more likely under these circumstances. The staff could ask beforehand, but my instincts are that this isn't really a good idea unless the group is huge.
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Originally Posted by mydo
If kids are such a nightmare then don't allow kids. While I'm at it.
I think you're misunderstanding me.
Restaurants want families as customers for obvious reasons, but a little consideration for the staff that has to clean up after their children when they make a mess everywhere is all I'm trying to get across here. If that's too much to ask, then they, personally, are inconsiderate. No one's saying it's not the staff's job to clean up after them, but just because they *can* let their children do something doesn't mean they're not asshole customers if they do let them do that and then leave it.
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Originally Posted by mydo
Don't serve meals over my kids. Don't put scalding hot meal right in front of a two year old. Have some fucking sense. Have a straw in your pocket when you bring the apple juice.
Sure.
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Originally Posted by mydo
If you don't want to accept cash then don't. Don't blame me because I went to the ATM before coming to your place.
My point is that *if* you do use cash and want change, *then* expect to wait longer for the server to process it because (1) credit cards are always faster and (2) all servers everywhere have a limited amount of change on them and must wait to get change elsewhere when they run out. I do not think customers categorically should not use cash.
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Originally Posted by mydo
I'm at your mercy Shawn. You run the restaurant and not me. Anything you can figure out to make my time more enjoyable will result in more money from my pocket.
I do not work in a restaurant, so I cannot "run the restaurant." I am not looking for more money for tips for myself because I am not a restaurant employee. I am a customer just like you except I'm writing from past working experiences.
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Originally Posted by trumptman
Customer actions = good service.
Staff actions = luck.
I think my head just exploded from the incongruence here.
Nick
No it's more complicated than that.
What customers think of as "good service" depends on customer actions in part and luck in part in addition to the best efforts of the staff.
15% is the standard tip in the US. And consistent bad service gets you lower. I will ONLY give 20% if the service was spectacular, that is if I felt like I was being taken care of instead of just served my food. I would just prefer to pick my food up from the kitchen if i could forgo paying an extra 15%, it really is no skin off my shoulder...
I average around 18%...
It is still odd that we have refused to realize this whole tipping game is bullshit...
I generally tip at least 20% but sometimes service sucks and you will feel it in your tip. I am actually amazed at how often I find the service to be lacklustre and I'm not talking about going to some chain restaraunt. I find it very irritating to go to a restaraunt and get surly service when I'm spending twenty-five bucks for an entree and having several drinks etc.
very[/I] difficult to believe you don't check posted closing times before entering a restaurant that late at night. If it's 10-11 on weekday nights, that's the time I think everyone realizes most restaurants are closed or closing. If it's around 11-12 on weekend nights, then most people understand the same thing.
Whether the employees "take it out on you" is another matter that I sympathize completely with the employees about. The staff will not give you very good service, will not care about whether they give you very good service, and will face very little repercussions from management as long as they don't screw up your order.
But at the very least out of basic consideration for other people: (1) order quickly because the kitchen closes, (2) order something that doesn't take long to make, (3) don't linger after closing. The restaurant does not make money by staying open after closing for you.
I went to an all-you-can-eat restaurant once, arriving at about 11:45pm. They closed at midnight and told us as much when we entered. They said that we could have 15 minutes if we wanted, which we did, as we were very hungry.
At about five to, a waiter came along and suggested we all went and got multiple plates of food each. He said that although we couldn't take any more food after midnight, we could have another half an hour eating while they cleared the buffet away. Thus we easily got our money's worth.
Nobody gave us bad service. They told us of the time constraints when we entered, and made sure we knew how long we'd have. With that information divulged, I think there's no excuse for bad service. Of course, if they'd said it was too late and we'd tried to argue our way in, that'd be another matter.
Of course you would say that... he's the only one to support you and even then it was just because he felt pity for you.
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I find it very difficult to believe you don't check posted closing times before entering a restaurant that late at night. If it's 10-11 on weekday nights, that's the time I think everyone realizes most restaurants are closed or closing. If it's around 11-12 on weekend nights, then most people understand the same thing.
Whether the employees "take it out on you" is another matter that I sympathize completely with the employees about. The staff will not give you very good service, will not care about whether they give you very good service, and will face very little repercussions from management as long as they don't screw up your order.
If a restaurant is open till a certain time, they should be able to serve you if you arrive before that time [i]and[i] they sit you. I have no problem if they say 15 mins before closing that they can't sit me, but if they sit me and then try to rush me out, sorry, I'm not going to be happy.
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But at the very least out of basic consideration for other people: (1) order quickly because the kitchen closes, (2) order something that doesn't take long to make, (3) don't linger after closing. The restaurant does not make money by staying open after closing for you.
Are you kidding me? You want me to adjust to YOUR schedule? You are terrible.
I don't care what the restaurant makes money doing.
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The point is that *if* you decide to split a check in a large group after you've received all your food and after-dinner items, *then* understand two things: (1) to do this will take time-- more time than if you told your server up front about your payment plan and (2) mistakes are far more likely under these circumstances. The staff could ask beforehand, but my instincts are that this isn't really a good idea unless the group is huge.
If you see a group that doesn't appear to be a family of 4 or something you should always ask how the table is going to split the bill from the start if you anticipate not having the mental capacity to handle the news at a later time.
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My point is that *if* you do use cash and want change, *then* expect to wait longer for the server to process it because (1) credit cards are always faster and (2) all servers everywhere have a limited amount of change on them and must wait to get change elsewhere when they run out. I do not think customers categorically should not use cash.
Customers should be able to use whatever form of acceptable payment and you shouldn't have a problem with it. Learn to count or something. I have no idea what to tell you. There is no reason it should take considerably longer and there is no reason I should get a sigh or a frown from you when handing you the check with 6 20s on it.
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I do not work in a restaurant, so I cannot "run the restaurant." I am not looking for more money for tips for myself because I am not a restaurant employee. I am a customer just like you except I'm writing from past working experiences.
Yet you are arguing from the point of view of a server because he clearly have lingering issues from your time spent doing it.
I will be very honest, If I had you as a server I likely would have walked out on you or called a manager over. There are several things that you have said that ALWAYS piss me off about some servers and I would not accept it.
Of course you would say that... he's the only one to support you and even then it was just because he felt pity for you.
You obviously did not read the thread.
Shetline agrees with a lot of the stuff. As does Flounder. As does Flat Stanley. Spindler agrees with parts of my perspective after I explained it. Hassan understands where I'm coming from. Anyway this doesn't have anything to do with anything except your inability to read a freaking thread in your efforts to be acerbic and mean-spirited.
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Originally Posted by El Capitan
If a restaurant is open till a certain time, they should be able to serve you if you arrive before that time [i]and[i] they sit you. I have no problem if they say 15 mins before closing that they can't sit me, but if they sit me and then try to rush me out, sorry, I'm not going to be happy.
Are you kidding me? You want me to adjust to YOUR schedule? You are terrible.
I don't care what the restaurant makes money doing.
Most people *get it.*
They're there late at night. No one else is in the restaurant. They manage to get there early enough before closing to get sat. The server tells them the kitchen is closing at a certain time so that they only have a certain amount of time to order. They'll order, eat and leave for the most part. But, after a closing time, it takes a certain breed of asshole customer to then linger after they've eaten. If you don't understand this, then you lack basic empathy for the people who must stay later for you.
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Originally Posted by El Capitan
If you see a group that doesn't appear to be a family of 4 or something you should always ask how the table is going to split the bill from the start if you anticipate not having the mental capacity to handle the news at a later time.
They could.
I don't see doing that as too much of a problem. Some customers might not understand why the server is asking about the check before anyone even orders. So that's why I think customers should at the very least be *aware* of the problems that check-splitting at the end poses.
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Originally Posted by El Capitan
Customers should be able to use whatever form of acceptable payment and you shouldn't have a problem with it. Learn to count or something. I have no idea what to tell you. There is no reason it should take considerably longer and there is no reason I should get a sigh or a frown from you when handing you the check with 6 20s on it.
Again with your thread-reading issues.
Yes, obviously, customers should pay with whatever they've got. Use your traveler's cheques! (That one will take even longer because the server may need to authenticate it with a drivers license and write all sorts of crap on it, and *then* get change because it's considered "cash.") The server conscientiousness points obviously don't apply to you because you don't give a shit about anyone but yourself. But what does apply to you is that getting change will take longer than a credit card nearly every time. Not all that greatly longer most times, but the server *will* run out of change at one point and will need to ask others for it. If you're in a rush, use a credit card or don't ask for change for the fastest service.
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Originally Posted by El Capitan
Yet you are arguing from the point of view of a server because he clearly have lingering issues from your time spent doing it.
Try ongoing issues that servers and restaurant staff currently face.
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Originally Posted by El Capitan
I will be very honest, If I had you as a server I likely would have walked out on you or called a manager over. There are several things that you have said that ALWAYS piss me off about some servers and I would not accept it.
I do not need to defend myself as a former server. You do not know how I was, and you're delusional if you think you have any idea. What I am talking about are my thoughts and opinions on restaurant issues. If you can't separate the two, then maybe you shouldn't participate here.
Anyone who's ever waited a table will be sympathetic to Shawn here, even if they disagree with some of his points.
The excuse taken to bite chunks out of the thread starter and engage in an argument apparently for the sake of it ain't... cool, really.
The sheer uncharitableness of some of the responses here is really, really shit.
I'm not sympathetic and I worked service jobs when putting myself through school as well. A couple dozen people have pointed out that he basically expects special treatment, something for nothing, and has his entire understanding of service backwards. Having dealt with Shawn for a long time I know this is par for the course with him.
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Originally Posted by ShawnJ
Well said, Hassan.
No it's more complicated than that.
What customers think of as "good service" depends on customer actions in part and luck in part in addition to the best efforts of the staff.
It isn't more complicated than that. People take themselves into account when asking for service and often ask no more than for information with which to make a decision. Half a dozen people on here have given examples where they arrived late for example, had options presented and simply made a choice.
Plenty of people on here have illustrated that your points make it the job of the customer to make up for bad management of the restaurant.
Since you can't seem to comprehend, no matter how many people have informed you of this, that your opinion is not a factual matter, let's just take one point of your advice and see if you can wake up.
You suggest that when large groups come in, it is not the responsibility of the staff to ask about check splitting but rather the responsibility of the customer. Additionally you suggest that the group not sit in some manner they would desire for enjoying their dinner, but instead arrange themselves according to what will make it easier for their server to take orders and properly assign them to their check.
Your rationale for this... well I'm ShawnJ so that is all that is necessary to know.
In the context of the rest of your statement, all we have to do to draw the luck of having good service is sit where the host puts us, in the order our server requires, wait extra long for seating and food so we can leave a nice minimum 20% tip for our lucky service. If we don't understand why this seems contrary to reality you hit us with the profound "it's complicated" to explain yourself. Perhaps it is complicated for you, but it is very clear to for everyone else.
If I traveled with a group so I could sit basically right next to my own family, what would be the point of sitting in a group? The group by its very nature is meant to mix it up. We often eat with a family or two and the grouping is always kids together and adults together at the same large setting. The kids often go a step further and segregate by age. Does this require a bit more thought than rubbing two sticks together? Sure but the reward is a larger bill and as a result a larger tip.
Can you provide any rationale besides the unlucky proposition that our waiter might be too stupid to handle it to justify tolerating subpar service in the area of groupings? BTW a rationale is beyond "I'm Shawn and I think it ought to be this way."
20% should be a standard tip, not something awarded only for exceptional service. It also should not be given on a merit basis because good service in a busy restaurant is more dependent on luck than merit. Many people have at least some ethical tipping standard, but in the end they're all arbitrary no matter how consistent you think you're being. The only time you should deviate from a 20% tip is if a server willfully goes out of his or her way to make your experience bad. Server mistakes happen from time to time.
You lost me here. I never got that whole tipping the waiter/waitress concept. Sorry, but it's something I often don't do. Not because I'm a mean person, but when I go to a restaurant, I don't feel like I should be responsible for directly paying the wait staff a portion of their salary for just doing their job. Just like I don't directly pay the salary of the checkout person at the grocery store, or the person who brings me shoes at the shoe store, or the guy who fertilizes my lawn, or the person who delivers my mail, or the guys that pick up my trash, or, or... I could go on. Most of us in our daily jobs perform a service for someone else, and very few of us get tipped. So I've never understood why it's a standard to tip waiters/waitresses.
You lost me here. I never got that whole tipping the waiter/waitress concept. Sorry, but it's something I often don't do. Not because I'm a mean person, but when I go to a restaurant, I don't feel like I should be responsible for directly paying the wait staff a portion of their salary for just doing their job. Just like I don't directly pay the salary of the checkout person at the grocery store, or the person who brings me shoes at the shoe store, or the guy who fertilizes my lawn, or the person who delivers my mail, or the guys that pick up my trash, or, or... I could go on. Most of us in our daily jobs perform a service for someone else, and very few of us get tipped. So I've never understood why it's a standard to tip waiters/waitresses.
You don't tip at all oftentimes?
You do understand that tipped employees do not receive the standard minimum wage, do you not? They receive just a portion of it. From 2000 to 2006 (when i worked) restaurants in Pennsylvania were required to pay servers just $2.83/hr in wages "to do their job." I believe the federal minimum wage for tipped employees was just $2.13/hr during that time. Servers also never get raises. They are paid through tips. Your food is cheaper because a restaurant's labor costs are reduced by not having to pay its wait staff their full wages. That's why tipping is customary.
I don't agree with paying servers that way; I think they should get a living wage and that tipping should be reserved only for exceptional service. But understanding the system is not constructed that way, I won't screw servers over because I disagree with the system. And believe me, you are royally screwing over whichever server has the misfortune of waiting on you. The opportunity cost of waiting on your table is huge. Instead of getting a table that tips, they get one that doesn't AND they actually *lose* money in a real sense by having to wait on you. Yes, because you don't tip, servers *lose* money because they have to tip out bartenders, buspersons, and oftentimes food runners based on a percentage of their sales, which you are adding to. Where I worked it was 5% of the total liquor sales for bartenders and 1.5% of the total food sales for buspersons *and* food runners.
You lost me here. I never got that whole tipping the waiter/waitress concept. Sorry, but it's something I often don't do. Not because I'm a mean person, but when I go to a restaurant, I don't feel like I should be responsible for directly paying the wait staff a portion of their salary for just doing their job. Just like I don't directly pay the salary of the checkout person at the grocery store, or the person who brings me shoes at the shoe store, or the guy who fertilizes my lawn, or the person who delivers my mail, or the guys that pick up my trash, or, or... I could go on. Most of us in our daily jobs perform a service for someone else, and very few of us get tipped. So I've never understood why it's a standard to tip waiters/waitresses.
Then you are a total jerk.
If you don't like the tipping system, eat where people don't depend on tips. Or tip some minimum amount, like 10% and bring yourself up to the standard of just regular jerk. Like it or not, this is the system we have. You don't tip the shoe guy because his salary is priced into the shoe and then paid to him by the store. The waitstaff are not getting paid a real salary by the restaurants.
But you already know that, I am sure. You are probably just a Troll. Or some music stealing kid...
I live in the Dallas metro area and I must say we have a number of restaurants all over the place. I would say that while a nice treat out at a nice restaurant is usually always met with professional service the experience at some of the less "well run" casual dining restaurants is less than professional many times I am sad to report. I always tip a generous amount at professional upper scale restaurants. At casual dining places I cant say I always tip well and it is due to the "less than professional" young wait staff. I have nothing against young staff and quite frankly some are great at their job but yet others are a nightmare in my book. I usually figure out very quickly which places hire the indifferent and aloof young kids and avoid these places at all costs.
I say the customer should drive the demand and the wait staff should find other work if they are not cut out for the job. This is not to say customers should disrespect the wait staff. I believe in respect and tact. I realize not all "americans" are polite in public.
At casual dining places I cant say I always tip well and it is due to the "less than professional" young wait staff. I have nothing against young staff and quite frankly some are great at their job but yet others are a nightmare in my book. I usually figure out very quickly which places hire the indifferent and aloof young kids and avoid these places at all costs.
I never ate at a restaurant that generally hired "indifferent and aloof young kids."
Managers find out pretty quickly the servers who are just going through the motions. If you have one of those, by all means, let the manager know. Chain restaurants give pretty much the same level of service and hire basically the same broad range of people. You might get better service at an Olive Garden because they restrict their servers to only 3 table sections. (Unlike other restaurants, a small table section is worthwhile for the servers there because of the high table turnover rate and the high check averages). But by and large, your overall service at chain restaurants isn't going to differ very much from place to place for casual dining. Unless some of the smaller restaurants in your area somehow don't care about its wait staff? Some of these smaller, ultimately unsuccessful businesses don't always have the right acumen on hiring and firing.
Comments
If you don't think people shouldn't be seated 10 minutes before closing then its up to the restaurant not to seat them. It's not my job to know. If I walk in and ask to be seated then that's that. Don't take it out on me that the manager seated me.
If wait staff needs to know about check splitting up front then they should ask up front.
If kids are such a nightmare then don't allow kids. While I'm at it. Don't serve meals over my kids. Don't put scalding hot meal right in front of a two year old. Have some fucking sense. Have a straw in your pocket when you bring the apple juice.
If you don't want to accept cash then don't. Don't blame me because I went to the ATM before coming to your place.
If I tell the server I'm in a hurry they can ask how much time I have and offer to take my order right there. When they bring the meal they can ask if I want the check. What they shouldn't do is leave me waiting after I've finished and then ask if I want fucking dessert!
I'm at your mercy Shawn. You run the restaurant and not me. Anything you can figure out to make my time more enjoyable will result in more money from my pocket.
All joking aside, this thread is *primarily* about how customer actions in a restaurant affect the level and efficiency of service--regardless of the best efforts of the staff. It's also dabbles in what I (and others in response) feel is the proper tipping standard. And lastly it's an attempt to get people to think about just generally having a little empathy and patience for the restaurant staff in the context of what we all know about the traditional customer-staff relationship. A little more organization would have helped, but I think I did a good job of clearing things up in my subsequent posts. Give 'em a read perhaps!
20% should be a standard tip, not something awarded only for exceptional service. It also should not be given on a merit basis because good service in a busy restaurant is more dependent on luck than merit.
I'm increasingly convinced that good service is really a matter of luck. If you knew how chaotic kitchens are on a busy night at an average restaurant, you'd be more sympathetic to this view.
Customer actions = good service.
Staff actions = luck.
I think my head just exploded from the incongruence here.
Nick
Anyone who's ever waited a table will be sympathetic to Shawn here, even if they disagree with some of his points.
The excuse taken to bite chunks out of the thread starter and engage in an argument apparently for the sake of it ain't... cool, really.
The sheer uncharitableness of some of the responses here is really, really shit.
It's not the customers job to run the restaurant. That's for the staff to do. It's also their job to show the customer an enjoyable time that would, one hopes, results in a larger tip. That may include smiling.
Of course it's not the customer's job to "run" the restaurant.
I'm not suggesting it is.
If you don't think people shouldn't be seated 10 minutes before closing then its up to the restaurant not to seat them.
I do not think closing times are not up to the restaurant.
It's not my job to know [closing times]. If I walk in and ask to be seated then that's that. Don't take it out on me that the manager seated me.
I find it very difficult to believe you don't check posted closing times before entering a restaurant that late at night. If it's 10-11 on weekday nights, that's the time I think everyone realizes most restaurants are closed or closing. If it's around 11-12 on weekend nights, then most people understand the same thing.
Whether the employees "take it out on you" is another matter that I sympathize completely with the employees about. The staff will not give you very good service, will not care about whether they give you very good service, and will face very little repercussions from management as long as they don't screw up your order.
But at the very least out of basic consideration for other people: (1) order quickly because the kitchen closes, (2) order something that doesn't take long to make, (3) don't linger after closing. The restaurant does not make money by staying open after closing for you.
If wait staff needs to know about check splitting up front then they should ask up front.
The point is that *if* you decide to split a check in a large group after you've received all your food and after-dinner items, *then* understand two things: (1) to do this will take time-- more time than if you told your server up front about your payment plan and (2) mistakes are far more likely under these circumstances. The staff could ask beforehand, but my instincts are that this isn't really a good idea unless the group is huge.
If kids are such a nightmare then don't allow kids. While I'm at it.
I think you're misunderstanding me.
Restaurants want families as customers for obvious reasons, but a little consideration for the staff that has to clean up after their children when they make a mess everywhere is all I'm trying to get across here. If that's too much to ask, then they, personally, are inconsiderate. No one's saying it's not the staff's job to clean up after them, but just because they *can* let their children do something doesn't mean they're not asshole customers if they do let them do that and then leave it.
Don't serve meals over my kids. Don't put scalding hot meal right in front of a two year old. Have some fucking sense. Have a straw in your pocket when you bring the apple juice.
Sure.
If you don't want to accept cash then don't. Don't blame me because I went to the ATM before coming to your place.
My point is that *if* you do use cash and want change, *then* expect to wait longer for the server to process it because (1) credit cards are always faster and (2) all servers everywhere have a limited amount of change on them and must wait to get change elsewhere when they run out. I do not think customers categorically should not use cash.
I'm at your mercy Shawn. You run the restaurant and not me. Anything you can figure out to make my time more enjoyable will result in more money from my pocket.
I do not work in a restaurant, so I cannot "run the restaurant." I am not looking for more money for tips for myself because I am not a restaurant employee. I am a customer just like you except I'm writing from past working experiences.
Customer actions = good service.
Staff actions = luck.
I think my head just exploded from the incongruence here.
Nick
No it's more complicated than that.
What customers think of as "good service" depends on customer actions in part and luck in part in addition to the best efforts of the staff.
I average around 18%...
It is still odd that we have refused to realize this whole tipping game is bullshit...
very[/I] difficult to believe you don't check posted closing times before entering a restaurant that late at night. If it's 10-11 on weekday nights, that's the time I think everyone realizes most restaurants are closed or closing. If it's around 11-12 on weekend nights, then most people understand the same thing.
Whether the employees "take it out on you" is another matter that I sympathize completely with the employees about. The staff will not give you very good service, will not care about whether they give you very good service, and will face very little repercussions from management as long as they don't screw up your order.
But at the very least out of basic consideration for other people: (1) order quickly because the kitchen closes, (2) order something that doesn't take long to make, (3) don't linger after closing. The restaurant does not make money by staying open after closing for you.
I went to an all-you-can-eat restaurant once, arriving at about 11:45pm. They closed at midnight and told us as much when we entered. They said that we could have 15 minutes if we wanted, which we did, as we were very hungry.
At about five to, a waiter came along and suggested we all went and got multiple plates of food each. He said that although we couldn't take any more food after midnight, we could have another half an hour eating while they cleared the buffet away. Thus we easily got our money's worth.
Nobody gave us bad service. They told us of the time constraints when we entered, and made sure we knew how long we'd have. With that information divulged, I think there's no excuse for bad service. Of course, if they'd said it was too late and we'd tried to argue our way in, that'd be another matter.
Amorya
You see, that's the way it should work. Luckily for you Shawn wasn't the waiter on that day.
At buffets.
Huge difference.
And I'm not a server.
At buffets.
Huge difference.
And I'm not a server.
Clearly that was his point, even though he wasn't discussing your job title.
Nick
move children (or the faint-of-heart) away from the computer before playing this clip
Well said, Hassan.
Of course you would say that... he's the only one to support you and even then it was just because he felt pity for you.
I find it very difficult to believe you don't check posted closing times before entering a restaurant that late at night. If it's 10-11 on weekday nights, that's the time I think everyone realizes most restaurants are closed or closing. If it's around 11-12 on weekend nights, then most people understand the same thing.
Whether the employees "take it out on you" is another matter that I sympathize completely with the employees about. The staff will not give you very good service, will not care about whether they give you very good service, and will face very little repercussions from management as long as they don't screw up your order.
If a restaurant is open till a certain time, they should be able to serve you if you arrive before that time [i]and[i] they sit you. I have no problem if they say 15 mins before closing that they can't sit me, but if they sit me and then try to rush me out, sorry, I'm not going to be happy.
But at the very least out of basic consideration for other people: (1) order quickly because the kitchen closes, (2) order something that doesn't take long to make, (3) don't linger after closing. The restaurant does not make money by staying open after closing for you.
Are you kidding me? You want me to adjust to YOUR schedule? You are terrible.
I don't care what the restaurant makes money doing.
The point is that *if* you decide to split a check in a large group after you've received all your food and after-dinner items, *then* understand two things: (1) to do this will take time-- more time than if you told your server up front about your payment plan and (2) mistakes are far more likely under these circumstances. The staff could ask beforehand, but my instincts are that this isn't really a good idea unless the group is huge.
If you see a group that doesn't appear to be a family of 4 or something you should always ask how the table is going to split the bill from the start if you anticipate not having the mental capacity to handle the news at a later time.
My point is that *if* you do use cash and want change, *then* expect to wait longer for the server to process it because (1) credit cards are always faster and (2) all servers everywhere have a limited amount of change on them and must wait to get change elsewhere when they run out. I do not think customers categorically should not use cash.
Customers should be able to use whatever form of acceptable payment and you shouldn't have a problem with it. Learn to count or something. I have no idea what to tell you. There is no reason it should take considerably longer and there is no reason I should get a sigh or a frown from you when handing you the check with 6 20s on it.
I do not work in a restaurant, so I cannot "run the restaurant." I am not looking for more money for tips for myself because I am not a restaurant employee. I am a customer just like you except I'm writing from past working experiences.
Yet you are arguing from the point of view of a server because he clearly have lingering issues from your time spent doing it.
I will be very honest, If I had you as a server I likely would have walked out on you or called a manager over. There are several things that you have said that ALWAYS piss me off about some servers and I would not accept it.
the socio-economic intricacies of tipping
move children (or the faint-of-heart) away from the computer before playing this clip
That was great
And I totally agree with her too.
If a server started berating me on how much tip I left I'd probably ask for it back.
Of course you would say that... he's the only one to support you and even then it was just because he felt pity for you.
You obviously did not read the thread.
Shetline agrees with a lot of the stuff. As does Flounder. As does Flat Stanley. Spindler agrees with parts of my perspective after I explained it. Hassan understands where I'm coming from. Anyway this doesn't have anything to do with anything except your inability to read a freaking thread in your efforts to be acerbic and mean-spirited.
If a restaurant is open till a certain time, they should be able to serve you if you arrive before that time [i]and[i] they sit you. I have no problem if they say 15 mins before closing that they can't sit me, but if they sit me and then try to rush me out, sorry, I'm not going to be happy.
Are you kidding me? You want me to adjust to YOUR schedule? You are terrible.
I don't care what the restaurant makes money doing.
Most people *get it.*
They're there late at night. No one else is in the restaurant. They manage to get there early enough before closing to get sat. The server tells them the kitchen is closing at a certain time so that they only have a certain amount of time to order. They'll order, eat and leave for the most part. But, after a closing time, it takes a certain breed of asshole customer to then linger after they've eaten. If you don't understand this, then you lack basic empathy for the people who must stay later for you.
If you see a group that doesn't appear to be a family of 4 or something you should always ask how the table is going to split the bill from the start if you anticipate not having the mental capacity to handle the news at a later time.
They could.
I don't see doing that as too much of a problem. Some customers might not understand why the server is asking about the check before anyone even orders. So that's why I think customers should at the very least be *aware* of the problems that check-splitting at the end poses.
Customers should be able to use whatever form of acceptable payment and you shouldn't have a problem with it. Learn to count or something. I have no idea what to tell you. There is no reason it should take considerably longer and there is no reason I should get a sigh or a frown from you when handing you the check with 6 20s on it.
Again with your thread-reading issues.
Yes, obviously, customers should pay with whatever they've got. Use your traveler's cheques! (That one will take even longer because the server may need to authenticate it with a drivers license and write all sorts of crap on it, and *then* get change because it's considered "cash.") The server conscientiousness points obviously don't apply to you because you don't give a shit about anyone but yourself. But what does apply to you is that getting change will take longer than a credit card nearly every time. Not all that greatly longer most times, but the server *will* run out of change at one point and will need to ask others for it. If you're in a rush, use a credit card or don't ask for change for the fastest service.
Yet you are arguing from the point of view of a server because he clearly have lingering issues from your time spent doing it.
Try ongoing issues that servers and restaurant staff currently face.
I will be very honest, If I had you as a server I likely would have walked out on you or called a manager over. There are several things that you have said that ALWAYS piss me off about some servers and I would not accept it.
I do not need to defend myself as a former server. You do not know how I was, and you're delusional if you think you have any idea. What I am talking about are my thoughts and opinions on restaurant issues. If you can't separate the two, then maybe you shouldn't participate here.
Is this Applenut? You were banned.
This thread makes me a bit sad.
Anyone who's ever waited a table will be sympathetic to Shawn here, even if they disagree with some of his points.
The excuse taken to bite chunks out of the thread starter and engage in an argument apparently for the sake of it ain't... cool, really.
The sheer uncharitableness of some of the responses here is really, really shit.
I'm not sympathetic and I worked service jobs when putting myself through school as well. A couple dozen people have pointed out that he basically expects special treatment, something for nothing, and has his entire understanding of service backwards. Having dealt with Shawn for a long time I know this is par for the course with him.
Well said, Hassan.
No it's more complicated than that.
What customers think of as "good service" depends on customer actions in part and luck in part in addition to the best efforts of the staff.
It isn't more complicated than that. People take themselves into account when asking for service and often ask no more than for information with which to make a decision. Half a dozen people on here have given examples where they arrived late for example, had options presented and simply made a choice.
Plenty of people on here have illustrated that your points make it the job of the customer to make up for bad management of the restaurant.
Since you can't seem to comprehend, no matter how many people have informed you of this, that your opinion is not a factual matter, let's just take one point of your advice and see if you can wake up.
You suggest that when large groups come in, it is not the responsibility of the staff to ask about check splitting but rather the responsibility of the customer. Additionally you suggest that the group not sit in some manner they would desire for enjoying their dinner, but instead arrange themselves according to what will make it easier for their server to take orders and properly assign them to their check.
Your rationale for this... well I'm ShawnJ so that is all that is necessary to know.
In the context of the rest of your statement, all we have to do to draw the luck of having good service is sit where the host puts us, in the order our server requires, wait extra long for seating and food so we can leave a nice minimum 20% tip for our lucky service. If we don't understand why this seems contrary to reality you hit us with the profound "it's complicated" to explain yourself. Perhaps it is complicated for you, but it is very clear to for everyone else.
If I traveled with a group so I could sit basically right next to my own family, what would be the point of sitting in a group? The group by its very nature is meant to mix it up. We often eat with a family or two and the grouping is always kids together and adults together at the same large setting. The kids often go a step further and segregate by age. Does this require a bit more thought than rubbing two sticks together? Sure but the reward is a larger bill and as a result a larger tip.
Can you provide any rationale besides the unlucky proposition that our waiter might be too stupid to handle it to justify tolerating subpar service in the area of groupings? BTW a rationale is beyond "I'm Shawn and I think it ought to be this way."
Nick
Tipping.
20% should be a standard tip, not something awarded only for exceptional service. It also should not be given on a merit basis because good service in a busy restaurant is more dependent on luck than merit. Many people have at least some ethical tipping standard, but in the end they're all arbitrary no matter how consistent you think you're being. The only time you should deviate from a 20% tip is if a server willfully goes out of his or her way to make your experience bad. Server mistakes happen from time to time.
You lost me here. I never got that whole tipping the waiter/waitress concept. Sorry, but it's something I often don't do. Not because I'm a mean person, but when I go to a restaurant, I don't feel like I should be responsible for directly paying the wait staff a portion of their salary for just doing their job. Just like I don't directly pay the salary of the checkout person at the grocery store, or the person who brings me shoes at the shoe store, or the guy who fertilizes my lawn, or the person who delivers my mail, or the guys that pick up my trash, or, or... I could go on. Most of us in our daily jobs perform a service for someone else, and very few of us get tipped. So I've never understood why it's a standard to tip waiters/waitresses.
You lost me here. I never got that whole tipping the waiter/waitress concept. Sorry, but it's something I often don't do. Not because I'm a mean person, but when I go to a restaurant, I don't feel like I should be responsible for directly paying the wait staff a portion of their salary for just doing their job. Just like I don't directly pay the salary of the checkout person at the grocery store, or the person who brings me shoes at the shoe store, or the guy who fertilizes my lawn, or the person who delivers my mail, or the guys that pick up my trash, or, or... I could go on. Most of us in our daily jobs perform a service for someone else, and very few of us get tipped. So I've never understood why it's a standard to tip waiters/waitresses.
You don't tip at all oftentimes?
You do understand that tipped employees do not receive the standard minimum wage, do you not? They receive just a portion of it. From 2000 to 2006 (when i worked) restaurants in Pennsylvania were required to pay servers just $2.83/hr in wages "to do their job." I believe the federal minimum wage for tipped employees was just $2.13/hr during that time. Servers also never get raises. They are paid through tips. Your food is cheaper because a restaurant's labor costs are reduced by not having to pay its wait staff their full wages. That's why tipping is customary.
I don't agree with paying servers that way; I think they should get a living wage and that tipping should be reserved only for exceptional service. But understanding the system is not constructed that way, I won't screw servers over because I disagree with the system. And believe me, you are royally screwing over whichever server has the misfortune of waiting on you. The opportunity cost of waiting on your table is huge. Instead of getting a table that tips, they get one that doesn't AND they actually *lose* money in a real sense by having to wait on you. Yes, because you don't tip, servers *lose* money because they have to tip out bartenders, buspersons, and oftentimes food runners based on a percentage of their sales, which you are adding to. Where I worked it was 5% of the total liquor sales for bartenders and 1.5% of the total food sales for buspersons *and* food runners.
You can't feign ignorance knowing all this.
You lost me here. I never got that whole tipping the waiter/waitress concept. Sorry, but it's something I often don't do. Not because I'm a mean person, but when I go to a restaurant, I don't feel like I should be responsible for directly paying the wait staff a portion of their salary for just doing their job. Just like I don't directly pay the salary of the checkout person at the grocery store, or the person who brings me shoes at the shoe store, or the guy who fertilizes my lawn, or the person who delivers my mail, or the guys that pick up my trash, or, or... I could go on. Most of us in our daily jobs perform a service for someone else, and very few of us get tipped. So I've never understood why it's a standard to tip waiters/waitresses.
Then you are a total jerk.
If you don't like the tipping system, eat where people don't depend on tips. Or tip some minimum amount, like 10% and bring yourself up to the standard of just regular jerk. Like it or not, this is the system we have. You don't tip the shoe guy because his salary is priced into the shoe and then paid to him by the store. The waitstaff are not getting paid a real salary by the restaurants.
But you already know that, I am sure. You are probably just a Troll. Or some music stealing kid...
I say the customer should drive the demand and the wait staff should find other work if they are not cut out for the job. This is not to say customers should disrespect the wait staff. I believe in respect and tact. I realize not all "americans" are polite in public.
Fellows
At casual dining places I cant say I always tip well and it is due to the "less than professional" young wait staff. I have nothing against young staff and quite frankly some are great at their job but yet others are a nightmare in my book. I usually figure out very quickly which places hire the indifferent and aloof young kids and avoid these places at all costs.
I never ate at a restaurant that generally hired "indifferent and aloof young kids."
Managers find out pretty quickly the servers who are just going through the motions. If you have one of those, by all means, let the manager know. Chain restaurants give pretty much the same level of service and hire basically the same broad range of people. You might get better service at an Olive Garden because they restrict their servers to only 3 table sections. (Unlike other restaurants, a small table section is worthwhile for the servers there because of the high table turnover rate and the high check averages). But by and large, your overall service at chain restaurants isn't going to differ very much from place to place for casual dining. Unless some of the smaller restaurants in your area somehow don't care about its wait staff? Some of these smaller, ultimately unsuccessful businesses don't always have the right acumen on hiring and firing.