And all those words and you still didn't answer the question.
What's wrong with the current design, and what needs changing?
I can't say they aren't going to change the design, but Porsche (a luxury/semi-exotic car maker) has kept the 911 body design (a quite amazing design by the way) for how long? 40, almost 50 years? Yeah, they might change the MBP design, and that'd be great, but I gotta agree... wouldn't be terrible if they didn't. It is a classic, forward-thinking design already.
And all those words and you still didn't answer the question.
What's wrong with the current design, and what needs changing?
Let's turn this discussion around...
By your line of reasoning, Apple should have never changed the original iPod shape/size/design. It is still works and works great. There is nothing wrong with it. They should have just increased the hard drive. No need to update the black and white GUI. Today's iPod GUI is nearly identical. Just leave well enough alone.
Same argument for Apple's new keyboard. Why bother? The older one was fine.
I can't say they aren't going to change the design, but Porsche (a luxury/semi-exotic car maker) has kept the 911 body design (a quite amazing design by the way) for how long? 40, almost 50 years? Yeah, they might change the MBP design, and that'd be great, but I gotta agree... wouldn't be terrible if they didn't. It is a classic, forward-thinking design already.
So Apple should stay with the current MBP design in perpetuity?
If no, then when do you think they should update the MBP enclosure? 6 months? 2 years? 6 years?
So Apple should stay with the current MBP design in perpetuity?
If no, then when do you think they should update the MBP enclosure? 6 months? 2 years? 6 years?
Didn't say one way or the other. I responded to your cocksure flat-out certainty of why they should change it and that they would (though you hedged when). I think they will change it, as the MBA is probably the beginning of a design evolution (as the iMac's alum were, as well) -- but your certainty made me point out that there are some award winning, high-market designs out there (Porsche, Corbusier furniture, that sort of thing) that don't change much, and they still sell to a similar market that much of Apple does. It was the hubris.
... but Porsche (a luxury/semi-exotic car maker) has kept the 911 body design (a quite amazing design by the way) for how long? 40, almost 50 years?...
Actually the Porsche 911 has been evolving since then and frequently (relatively) changes. Each generation the design moves forward in progressive stages, though still recognisable as a 911
Turn it around? Because you can't answer the question?
Who said the iPod or anything else shouldn't change?
I'm countering the argument that it must change because it's five years old. That's wrong.
It can/should/will change when there's something better available. That might or might not be now.
What's wrong with the current design?
It's old and stale. It no longer excites (like the new iMac, iPhone, Macbook or MBA). MBP has been around for 5+ years. In computer years, that's like 20 years...
So, I am countering your counter (not grammatical, but hey) by saying that "out with the old, in with the new" is a very good reason to update a product. Especially since Apple's business model depends on it. The sooner they stoke the desires of their MBP customer base the better...the better for us...the better for Apple shareholders...the better for Apple's reputation as a premier design shop, etc... Doing so will kick off a whole new replacement cycle in a segment where their products have very high margin (relative to iPod and iMacs).
Not to mention, a new industrial design will enable Apple to remain the Big Dog in leading an entire industry in exquisite product design. I would argue that Apple's status depends on its ability to innovate in system packaging.
Didn't say one way or the other. I responded to your cocksure flat-out certainty of why they should change it and that they would (though you hedged when). I think they will change it, as the MBA is probably the beginning of a design evolution (as the iMac's alum were, as well) -- but your certainty made me point out that there are some award winning, high-market designs out there (Porsche, Corbusier furniture, that sort of thing) that don't change much, and they still sell to a similar market that much of Apple does. It was the hubris.
I am cocksure (I love that word...not enough folks use it or express themselves that way)...
I have no idea when...but one thing is clear...Apple's margins generated by laptop sales will start to suffer (if they haven't already begun to) because it is evident that they turned the page on a new set of design elements that have trickled its way thru their entire portfolio except for MBP.
So based on your comments above...I believe we agree.
Note that I never said that all high market designs must evolve or must be refreshed...only those from Apple. No hubris, just facts. (OK...some facts, some opinion)...
I am cocksure (I love that word...not enough folks use it or express themselves that way)...
I have no idea when...but one thing is clear...Apple's margins generated by laptop sales will start to suffer (if they haven't already begun to) because it is evident that they turned the page on a new set of design elements that have trickled its way thru their entire portfolio except for MBP.
So based on your comments above...I believe we agree.
Note that I never said that all high market designs must evolve or must be refreshed...only those from Apple. No hubris, just facts. (OK...some facts, some opinion)...
It's old and stale. It no longer excites (like the new iMac, iPhone, Macbook or MBA). MBP has been around for 5+ years. In computer years, that's like 20 years...
So, I am countering your counter (not grammatical, but hey) by saying that "out with the old, in with the new" is a very good reason to update a product. Especially since Apple's business model depends on it. The sooner they stoke the desires of their MBP customer base the better...the better for us...the better for Apple shareholders...the better for Apple's reputation as a premier design shop, etc... Doing so will kick off a whole new replacement cycle in a segment where their products have very high margin (relative to iPod and iMacs).
Not to mention, a new industrial design will enable Apple to remain the Big Dog in leading an entire industry in exquisite product design. I would argue that Apple's status depends on its ability to innovate in system packaging.
Good grief, are you a politician?!
I'll ask this in as simple terms as I can: WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE CURRENT DESIGN?
If you don't know that, then changing it won't necessarily be a change for the better, will it?
What's the point of changing it if you don't make it better?
I'll ask this in as simple terms as I can: WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE CURRENT DESIGN?
If you don't know that, then changing it won't necessarily be a change for the better, will it?
What's the point of changing it if you don't make it better?
In no particular order...
1) They keyboard is not consistent with their new design, space bar has low quality feel to it...it rattles in place. MB and iMac keyboards are a vast improvement.
2) The latching mechanism sucks (I had my repaired twice).
3) The battery life sucks (new battery, cycle count = 21, 2 hours and 5 minutes on full charge with screen dimmed, only running email and openoffice). Note I have a 15" MBP Core Duo / 2Ghz / 2GB...exactly 2 years old.
4) Underside gets extremely hot, cannot rest on lap. Need pillow or desk.
5) Enclosure creaks when closing lid or one handing the unit
6) On my 3rd power supply, MagSafe connector fails / cord detaches from connector
7) Lid doesn't flip back far enough for certain situations
8) Industrial design is tired, dated (I've owned PB15 & now MBP...4.5 years of staring at the exact same laptop)...I don't want to own the exact same style for another 2 years (upon upgrading)...6 years total. Boring.
9) DVD drive randomly tries to eject a disk without user intervention
10) Speakers on the side collect a lot of unsightly dust and crud in micro grill
11) Lid latch button is a pain to push with adult male sized fingers, need to fiddle with finger nail. Sometimes doesn't unlatch both lid hooks.
12) Lid doesn't always properly close when carried in sleeve. Can awake and run down battery during my commute home.
13) Track pad button has an inconsistent click and sometimes sticks on the far right edge
14) Enclosure width seems out right thick compared to new MBA. Would like to see a more optimally chiseled design that takes advantage of the myriad of Intel power envelopes to make MBP lighter, thinner, more portable. Seems bulky (at 5.4lbs) compared to Sony VAIOs.
15) Paint wearing thin in certain spots (on ledge just below the 'fn' and 'page up/down' keys.
16) Enclosure middle sags causing unit to slide easily on a desk (rubber feet don't have a change to grip surface).
I think thats it.
Are you happy? (That's 10 minutes I'll never get back)...
But you are wrong. "Being 5+ years old" is a reason. You just fail to recognize it as such. I am not sure why. I think it has to do with some dimwitted notion that something has to be physically/functionally lacking in order for it to necessitate an update. That's an awfully pedestrian/utilitarian/anti-innovation/anti-Schumpeter view of things.
That is why I mentioned the original iPod. By your (flawed) reasoning, there was nothing wrong with it. It played music/MP3s. It was portable. Why update it? It was completely unnecessary to change its enclosure.
Thank God you are not running Apple. We would still be typing on Wallstreet PB enclosures...(since you would probably find no need to update that either).
So you don't see a reason to change the MBP. And it seems that nothing warrants updating the MBP enclosure (including my 16 gripes). Why? At what point should it be updated in your opinion?
That is an interesting (if misguided) opinion. Please explain yourself.
Those are mostly about tweaks rather than re-design.
And they still don't answer my original point, which was that "being 5 years old" isn't a reason for change.
I see that wasn't in your list, for example.
Aesthetic is a good enough reason to change design. If it wasn't college kids would still be carrying round those nasty little blue or orange handbags that predated the current ibook and the original ipod would have been indistinguishable from any other mp3 player.
The MBP is simple but it lacks the originality, wow-factor and absolute functionality that render something a design-classic. It also has plenty of lookalikes. Its market is therefore reduced to those of us who'll buy it because we like what it does rather than the statement it makes as an object of desire. If you were Jobs is that a scenario you'd be happy with, or would you want to be selling a "must have"?
When the Ti-Book was introduced everyone went crazy for the new design. Since then we've seen titanium downgraded to aluminium and the lovely old translucent keyboard downgraded to a cheap looking silver-sprayed number. I don't think it's such a big deal for potential customers to be saying they want something new and improved. I'd be very surprised if Apple weren't already working on it.
.... Since then we've seen titanium downgraded to aluminium and the lovely old translucent keyboard downgraded to a cheap looking silver-sprayed number.
You've laid out precisely my feelings on the matter, including the aesthetic and utilitarian reasons why the MBP is over-ripe for a case design refresh, and why it baffles me that Apple apparently hasn't noticed this.
Here's what I think should be fixed with the design of the MacBook Pro.
I love the metal look, that shouldn't change.
I actually liked the black keyboard with white letters that was on the TiBook. I've used MacBook Pros, and I think that the old TiBook keyboard feels tougher and is easier to see, and use. The MacBook Pro keyboard feels cheap and flimsy, and the spray-painted keys have got to go I remember once a friend of mine accidentally set something hot on them for a couple seconds and the paint started melting off. It wasn't pretty.
I also think they should make the casing a bit more durable. It creaks when you pick it up, it dents easily, and the corners are made of plastic. Something more durable would be cool.
1) They keyboard is not consistent with their new design, space bar has low quality feel to it...it rattles in place. MB and iMac keyboards are a vast improvement.
4) Underside gets extremely hot, cannot rest on lap. Need pillow or desk.
5) Enclosure creaks when closing lid or one handing the unit
7) Lid doesn't flip back far enough for certain situations
11) Lid latch button is a pain to push with adult male sized fingers, need to fiddle with finger nail. Sometimes doesn't unlatch both lid hooks.
15) Paint wearing thin in certain spots (on ledge just below the 'fn' and 'page up/down' keys.
Those are the points I'd have to agree to.
I like the keyboard, but the Spacebar does feel cheap. Otherwise, the keyboard has a very nice touch and is a pleasure to type one. Haven't really tried an MB keyboard long enough to tell whether it's a vast improvement or not.
The lid button is too small to operate easily, but also too small to be opened accidentally, which is a plus. Still, a magnetic latch would be nice, even though I think the hook closing system works fine. Display doesn't open wide enough for certain positions is true, but I see the MBA also only opens to 125°, which is also far less than for example the iBook G4, which opened to almost 160°, I'd say. The paint that you think is wearing off is not actually paint, but corroded aluminium, due to sweat from the hands. I have very wet hands generally and there are several spots that have corroded already. And it hasn't even been a year since I bought the MBP. However, that is only a cosmetic issue. Haven't had any trouble with dust collecting in the speaker grille, but I don't smoke either. The creaking of the enclosure is scary, but aparently harmless.
And I disagree that the design is boring. It's timeless.
What I'd like to see in a future revision (apart from hardware improvements):
-magnetic latch
-thinner display (display is still as thick as the non LED backlit one)
-multitouch keypad
-some kind of teflon or whatever coating for the palmrests
Comments
No.
And all those words and you still didn't answer the question.
What's wrong with the current design, and what needs changing?
I can't say they aren't going to change the design, but Porsche (a luxury/semi-exotic car maker) has kept the 911 body design (a quite amazing design by the way) for how long? 40, almost 50 years? Yeah, they might change the MBP design, and that'd be great, but I gotta agree... wouldn't be terrible if they didn't. It is a classic, forward-thinking design already.
No.
And all those words and you still didn't answer the question.
What's wrong with the current design, and what needs changing?
Let's turn this discussion around...
By your line of reasoning, Apple should have never changed the original iPod shape/size/design. It is still works and works great. There is nothing wrong with it. They should have just increased the hard drive. No need to update the black and white GUI. Today's iPod GUI is nearly identical. Just leave well enough alone.
Same argument for Apple's new keyboard. Why bother? The older one was fine.
I agree. You've convinced me.
I can't say they aren't going to change the design, but Porsche (a luxury/semi-exotic car maker) has kept the 911 body design (a quite amazing design by the way) for how long? 40, almost 50 years? Yeah, they might change the MBP design, and that'd be great, but I gotta agree... wouldn't be terrible if they didn't. It is a classic, forward-thinking design already.
So Apple should stay with the current MBP design in perpetuity?
If no, then when do you think they should update the MBP enclosure? 6 months? 2 years? 6 years?
So Apple should stay with the current MBP design in perpetuity?
If no, then when do you think they should update the MBP enclosure? 6 months? 2 years? 6 years?
Didn't say one way or the other. I responded to your cocksure flat-out certainty of why they should change it and that they would (though you hedged when). I think they will change it, as the MBA is probably the beginning of a design evolution (as the iMac's alum were, as well) -- but your certainty made me point out that there are some award winning, high-market designs out there (Porsche, Corbusier furniture, that sort of thing) that don't change much, and they still sell to a similar market that much of Apple does. It was the hubris.
... but Porsche (a luxury/semi-exotic car maker) has kept the 911 body design (a quite amazing design by the way) for how long? 40, almost 50 years?...
Actually the Porsche 911 has been evolving since then and frequently (relatively) changes. Each generation the design moves forward in progressive stages, though still recognisable as a 911
Who said the iPod or anything else shouldn't change?
I'm countering the argument that it must change because it's five years old. That's wrong.
It can/should/will change when there's something better available. That might or might not be now.
What's wrong with the current design?
Turn it around? Because you can't answer the question?
Who said the iPod or anything else shouldn't change?
I'm countering the argument that it must change because it's five years old. That's wrong.
It can/should/will change when there's something better available. That might or might not be now.
What's wrong with the current design?
It's old and stale. It no longer excites (like the new iMac, iPhone, Macbook or MBA). MBP has been around for 5+ years. In computer years, that's like 20 years...
So, I am countering your counter (not grammatical, but hey) by saying that "out with the old, in with the new" is a very good reason to update a product. Especially since Apple's business model depends on it. The sooner they stoke the desires of their MBP customer base the better...the better for us...the better for Apple shareholders...the better for Apple's reputation as a premier design shop, etc... Doing so will kick off a whole new replacement cycle in a segment where their products have very high margin (relative to iPod and iMacs).
Not to mention, a new industrial design will enable Apple to remain the Big Dog in leading an entire industry in exquisite product design. I would argue that Apple's status depends on its ability to innovate in system packaging.
Didn't say one way or the other. I responded to your cocksure flat-out certainty of why they should change it and that they would (though you hedged when). I think they will change it, as the MBA is probably the beginning of a design evolution (as the iMac's alum were, as well) -- but your certainty made me point out that there are some award winning, high-market designs out there (Porsche, Corbusier furniture, that sort of thing) that don't change much, and they still sell to a similar market that much of Apple does. It was the hubris.
I am cocksure (I love that word...not enough folks use it or express themselves that way)...
I have no idea when...but one thing is clear...Apple's margins generated by laptop sales will start to suffer (if they haven't already begun to) because it is evident that they turned the page on a new set of design elements that have trickled its way thru their entire portfolio except for MBP.
So based on your comments above...I believe we agree.
Note that I never said that all high market designs must evolve or must be refreshed...only those from Apple. No hubris, just facts. (OK...some facts, some opinion)...
I am cocksure (I love that word...not enough folks use it or express themselves that way)...
I have no idea when...but one thing is clear...Apple's margins generated by laptop sales will start to suffer (if they haven't already begun to) because it is evident that they turned the page on a new set of design elements that have trickled its way thru their entire portfolio except for MBP.
So based on your comments above...I believe we agree.
Note that I never said that all high market designs must evolve or must be refreshed...only those from Apple. No hubris, just facts. (OK...some facts, some opinion)...
Coolie-moolie.
It's old and stale. It no longer excites (like the new iMac, iPhone, Macbook or MBA). MBP has been around for 5+ years. In computer years, that's like 20 years...
So, I am countering your counter (not grammatical, but hey) by saying that "out with the old, in with the new" is a very good reason to update a product. Especially since Apple's business model depends on it. The sooner they stoke the desires of their MBP customer base the better...the better for us...the better for Apple shareholders...the better for Apple's reputation as a premier design shop, etc... Doing so will kick off a whole new replacement cycle in a segment where their products have very high margin (relative to iPod and iMacs).
Not to mention, a new industrial design will enable Apple to remain the Big Dog in leading an entire industry in exquisite product design. I would argue that Apple's status depends on its ability to innovate in system packaging.
Good grief, are you a politician?!
I'll ask this in as simple terms as I can: WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE CURRENT DESIGN?
If you don't know that, then changing it won't necessarily be a change for the better, will it?
What's the point of changing it if you don't make it better?
Good grief, are you a politician?!
I'll ask this in as simple terms as I can: WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE CURRENT DESIGN?
If you don't know that, then changing it won't necessarily be a change for the better, will it?
What's the point of changing it if you don't make it better?
In no particular order...
1) They keyboard is not consistent with their new design, space bar has low quality feel to it...it rattles in place. MB and iMac keyboards are a vast improvement.
2) The latching mechanism sucks (I had my repaired twice).
3) The battery life sucks (new battery, cycle count = 21, 2 hours and 5 minutes on full charge with screen dimmed, only running email and openoffice). Note I have a 15" MBP Core Duo / 2Ghz / 2GB...exactly 2 years old.
4) Underside gets extremely hot, cannot rest on lap. Need pillow or desk.
5) Enclosure creaks when closing lid or one handing the unit
6) On my 3rd power supply, MagSafe connector fails / cord detaches from connector
7) Lid doesn't flip back far enough for certain situations
8) Industrial design is tired, dated (I've owned PB15 & now MBP...4.5 years of staring at the exact same laptop)...I don't want to own the exact same style for another 2 years (upon upgrading)...6 years total. Boring.
9) DVD drive randomly tries to eject a disk without user intervention
10) Speakers on the side collect a lot of unsightly dust and crud in micro grill
11) Lid latch button is a pain to push with adult male sized fingers, need to fiddle with finger nail. Sometimes doesn't unlatch both lid hooks.
12) Lid doesn't always properly close when carried in sleeve. Can awake and run down battery during my commute home.
13) Track pad button has an inconsistent click and sometimes sticks on the far right edge
14) Enclosure width seems out right thick compared to new MBA. Would like to see a more optimally chiseled design that takes advantage of the myriad of Intel power envelopes to make MBP lighter, thinner, more portable. Seems bulky (at 5.4lbs) compared to Sony VAIOs.
15) Paint wearing thin in certain spots (on ledge just below the 'fn' and 'page up/down' keys.
16) Enclosure middle sags causing unit to slide easily on a desk (rubber feet don't have a change to grip surface).
I think thats it.
Are you happy? (That's 10 minutes I'll never get back)...
Those are mostly about tweaks rather than re-design.
And they still don't answer my original point, which was that "being 5 years old" isn't a reason for change.
I see that wasn't in your list, for example.
That was hard work, getting an answer.
Those are mostly about tweaks rather than re-design.
And they still don't answer my original point, which was that "being 5 years old" isn't a reason for change.
I see that wasn't in your list, for example.
Obviously you didn't read #8.
But you are wrong. "Being 5+ years old" is a reason. You just fail to recognize it as such. I am not sure why. I think it has to do with some dimwitted notion that something has to be physically/functionally lacking in order for it to necessitate an update. That's an awfully pedestrian/utilitarian/anti-innovation/anti-Schumpeter view of things.
That is why I mentioned the original iPod. By your (flawed) reasoning, there was nothing wrong with it. It played music/MP3s. It was portable. Why update it? It was completely unnecessary to change its enclosure.
Thank God you are not running Apple. We would still be typing on Wallstreet PB enclosures...(since you would probably find no need to update that either).
So you don't see a reason to change the MBP. And it seems that nothing warrants updating the MBP enclosure (including my 16 gripes). Why? At what point should it be updated in your opinion?
That is an interesting (if misguided) opinion. Please explain yourself.
That was hard work, getting an answer.
Those are mostly about tweaks rather than re-design.
And they still don't answer my original point, which was that "being 5 years old" isn't a reason for change.
I see that wasn't in your list, for example.
Aesthetic is a good enough reason to change design. If it wasn't college kids would still be carrying round those nasty little blue or orange handbags that predated the current ibook and the original ipod would have been indistinguishable from any other mp3 player.
The MBP is simple but it lacks the originality, wow-factor and absolute functionality that render something a design-classic. It also has plenty of lookalikes. Its market is therefore reduced to those of us who'll buy it because we like what it does rather than the statement it makes as an object of desire. If you were Jobs is that a scenario you'd be happy with, or would you want to be selling a "must have"?
When the Ti-Book was introduced everyone went crazy for the new design. Since then we've seen titanium downgraded to aluminium and the lovely old translucent keyboard downgraded to a cheap looking silver-sprayed number. I don't think it's such a big deal for potential customers to be saying they want something new and improved. I'd be very surprised if Apple weren't already working on it.
In no particular order...
(16 bullet points)...
.... Since then we've seen titanium downgraded to aluminium and the lovely old translucent keyboard downgraded to a cheap looking silver-sprayed number.
You've laid out precisely my feelings on the matter, including the aesthetic and utilitarian reasons why the MBP is over-ripe for a case design refresh, and why it baffles me that Apple apparently hasn't noticed this.
Magnetic latch? Multi-touch trackpad? what else?
I love the metal look, that shouldn't change.
I actually liked the black keyboard with white letters that was on the TiBook. I've used MacBook Pros, and I think that the old TiBook keyboard feels tougher and is easier to see, and use. The MacBook Pro keyboard feels cheap and flimsy, and the spray-painted keys have got to go
I also think they should make the casing a bit more durable. It creaks when you pick it up, it dents easily, and the corners are made of plastic. Something more durable would be cool.
And the magnetic latch, that'd be nice.
1) They keyboard is not consistent with their new design, space bar has low quality feel to it...it rattles in place. MB and iMac keyboards are a vast improvement.
4) Underside gets extremely hot, cannot rest on lap. Need pillow or desk.
5) Enclosure creaks when closing lid or one handing the unit
7) Lid doesn't flip back far enough for certain situations
11) Lid latch button is a pain to push with adult male sized fingers, need to fiddle with finger nail. Sometimes doesn't unlatch both lid hooks.
15) Paint wearing thin in certain spots (on ledge just below the 'fn' and 'page up/down' keys.
Those are the points I'd have to agree to.
I like the keyboard, but the Spacebar does feel cheap. Otherwise, the keyboard has a very nice touch and is a pleasure to type one. Haven't really tried an MB keyboard long enough to tell whether it's a vast improvement or not.
The lid button is too small to operate easily, but also too small to be opened accidentally, which is a plus. Still, a magnetic latch would be nice, even though I think the hook closing system works fine. Display doesn't open wide enough for certain positions is true, but I see the MBA also only opens to 125°, which is also far less than for example the iBook G4, which opened to almost 160°, I'd say. The paint that you think is wearing off is not actually paint, but corroded aluminium, due to sweat from the hands. I have very wet hands generally and there are several spots that have corroded already. And it hasn't even been a year since I bought the MBP. However, that is only a cosmetic issue. Haven't had any trouble with dust collecting in the speaker grille, but I don't smoke either. The creaking of the enclosure is scary, but aparently harmless.
And I disagree that the design is boring. It's timeless.
What I'd like to see in a future revision (apart from hardware improvements):
-magnetic latch
-thinner display (display is still as thick as the non LED backlit one)
-multitouch keypad
-some kind of teflon or whatever coating for the palmrests
-maybe redesigned keyboard
-bigger opening angle
-maybe a third USB port
Only in a special Apple event. If we hear Apple sending invititations in the next months, we know what it will be about.
Yeah. The 3G iPhone.