I'm pretty sure that the "no known issues" means "there are no known issues with the things we reckon we've fixed". It doesn't mean "this build of OS X has no bugs".
I'm willing to bet that the number of open bugs for OS X numbers in the 1,000s.
You are correct, that is exactly what it means. When they say that there is "no known issues", that is in regards to the fixes that they have made. It does not imply that Mac OS X is perfect, nor does it imply that the fixes are perfect. It means, that with internal testing of the fixes, they haven't found any problems, but that the developers should explore the applications and commands that have had tweaks and report back if problems with those code alterations are found.
Oh, I agree that four builds with no known issues is a good thing. I'd simply like them to be more descriptive with what they are adding. I know Apple will always be vague at best so it's a moot point.
The thing that keeps jumping into my head is I wonder if they are working on hammering out all of these bugs now and really making Leopard shine, what they are going to be doing with the rest of their point updates. Seems to me like they are going all out of squash every bug right here and now.
It makes me wonder...
There's one thing that four builds with no known issues suggests to me and that is that their internal QA process isn't picking up the issues found between builds. That's a little worrying though I don't know their QA process. Do Apple release builds straight from engineering or after QA?
But yes, it appears they want to nail pretty much everything in 10.5.2.
Oh, I agree that four builds with no known issues is a good thing. I'd simply like them to be more descriptive with what they are adding. I know Apple will always be vague at best so it's a moot point.
The thing that keeps jumping into my head is I wonder if they are working on hammering out all of these bugs now and really making Leopard shine, what they are going to be doing with the rest of their point updates. Seems to me like they are going all out of squash every bug right here and now.
It makes me wonder...
As has been pointed out, 'no KNOWN issues' simply means that Apple don't KNOW of any issues with the software at the time of the build. As has also been pointed out, this is a standard phrase, and developers know what they're getting - Apple aren't misinforming or trying to hide problems; its just that you've misunderstood the meaning of the phrase.
Likewise, even if 10.5.2 'squashes every bug' in Leopard (oh how lovely that would be) it WON'T BE PERFECT! No code every is, really - there's always room for further optimisation, assuming there's a lot of code involved (which, in the case of a shiny new OS like Leopard, there is!). In addition to this, it is also possible that other minor bugs might show up that haven't so far been discovered because they relate to unusual software/hardware configs. One cannot assume that 10.5.2 will simply be 'fixed' and never ever need fixing again. Plus there's obviously room for further updating should any security vulnerabilities become known - not likely, but not impossible.
But I suspect that they plan to get Leopard more or less sorted in this update so they can focus on other tasks - like another os x (best to start early), or something else Steve Jobs hasn't told us about yet...
In the meantime, stop pointlessly grumbling about 'known issues', when you clearly don't know what you're on about...
This makes me believe they are just engaging in disinformation. Why not just say there are issues? It's obvious to me that if 9C30 tacked on three new fixes, those three fixes didn't exist in 9C27. Therefore there are issues. It appears to me that the "no known issues" statement from Apple can not be trusted.
The Unknown
As we know,
There are known knowns.
There are things we know we know.
We also know
There are known unknowns.
That is to say
We know there are some things
We do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns,
The ones we don't know
We don't know.
? Former US Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, Feb. 12, 2002 Department of Defense news briefing
looks like 10.5.2 will be one solid update all round.
Side bar: Off Topic I know but had to share ... As I have owned multiple Apple dealerships and a Mac software company I get asked by a lot of friends for help on Macs. One elderly lady I know phoned yesterday as she had a lot of problems with her new Computer. I was confused at first until I realized she didn't even have a Mac. She had bought a PC with Vista. When I pointed this out she assured me she had asked if they sold 'Apples' and she said "The young man assured me an Acer with Vista was the same thing. Vista is Apple and much better then XP as it had all the safety of OS X but this was just Microsoft's version of Apple." I was speechless!
Good gosh on the off-topic! Any chance you can share with us the name of the store this happened in? I would be taking that Acer back in a hot minute!
Remember this information isn't intended for the general public, its just getting picked up by AI, MR, etc. The audience for that information are developers of Mac applications who are using the builds to test their apps against. "No known issues" means any bug should be reported. That is different from "X, Y, and Z" aren't working correctly but here is a current build to test everything else. Late in a development cycle there shouldn't be a lot of issues identified as "not yet being fixed" in the current build.
Take off the tinfoil hats people, its not a conspiracy or an orchestrated campaign of disinformation. Reread bwik's post, he understands the software development lifecycle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwik
Cycle:
1) No known issues
2) Users report new problems
3) Apple fixes new problems
4) No known issues
5) Release new build and repeat
This is how it's done. Quibble with the masters if you have to. Makes you look dumb.
I appreciate the continued slaps to the face by the likes of:
John B.
bwik
bishely
aegisdesign
solipsism
and others. You have taught me the proper meaning of doublespeak. "No known issues" means there are issues, but we're conveniently disregarding those at the present and focusing upon the issues we just fixed and that there aren't any issues we've found related to those specific fixes.
Furthermore, it's understood now, that this information is not to be heard by those of us who accept that a red light is, in fact, a red light. This is where audience is key, and speaking to them is focused upon what they know.
I'm a firefighter by trade. When I tell you that there are no known issues with your house, I'm confident that you're place isn't secretly burning. This is the difference between our perspectives.
As for the verbal abuse I've received on this thread regarding this issue, I'm surprised. I remember a time when it would have been explained in a different way, without negativity or insults thrown in. My how times change.
I appreciate the continued slaps to the face by the likes of:
John B.
bwik
bishely
aegisdesign
solipsism
and others. You have taught me the proper meaning of doublespeak. "No known issues" means there are issues, but we're conveniently disregarding those at the present and focusing upon the issues we just fixed and that there aren't any issues we've found related to those specific fixes.
Furthermore, it's understood now, that this information is not to be heard by those of us who accept that a red light is, in fact, a red light. This is where audience is key, and speaking to them is focused upon what they know.
I'm a firefighter by trade. When I tell you that there are no known issues with your house, I'm confident that you're place isn't secretly burning. This is the difference between our perspectives.
As for the verbal abuse I've received on this thread regarding this issue, I'm surprised. I remember a time when it would have been explained in a different way, without negativity or insults thrown in. My how times change.
good god man, get over yourself - youre wrong. its not doublespeak, its not disinformation, its no KNOWN issues - apple themselves are not aware of any big issues, so they turn it over to the developers who then report any issues they find in their extensive testing of their own apps on the platform - apple themselves cant test EVERYTHING - no company can. this is the way it goes with ALL operating systems.
if my house is on fire, but i dont call the fire brigade, you would be able to accurately state that there were no known issues/fires at my house - that doesnt mean my house isnt actually on fire!
and you were treated with respect for long enough - youve rambled on so much and seemed to deliberately ignore the facts to such an extent im now convinced youre just trolling - surely you must understand why everyone is so exasperated with what youre saying?? your point has been answered/clarified - no known issues is not the same as 'this operating system works perfectly', and just because you dont understand that does not make it some orwellian conspiracy on apple's part!
You have taught me the proper meaning of doublespeak. "No known issues" means there are issues
There is no doublespeak. They can't say there are no issues because all software has issues. Saying that there are issues on every release serves no useful purpose for the developers. So they are left with the honest statement that there are no known issues.
Developers are not getting upset when they discover that isn't working properly since that is the reason for sending the build to the developers in the first place. Should they really be saying,
"We have no new issues or anything pending that may negatively result in a malfunction caused by this point release, but we are going to let you try it to be sure before we finalize it for general OS X users to install.
This in no way means that the OS is perfect and pristine. In fact, we are sure there are issues that we have not yet discovered, as well as infinite ways to optimize the system further, and we also have a laundry list of things that will in no way effect the end user or developer so it's pretty pointless to list here so we won't. We will continue to make it better, faster, more efficient.
good god man, get over yourself - youre wrong. its not doublespeak, its not disinformation, its no KNOWN issues - apple themselves are not aware of any big issues, so they turn it over to the developers who then report any issues they find in their extensive testing of their own apps on the platform - apple themselves cant test EVERYTHING - no company can. this is the way it goes with ALL operating systems.
if my house is on fire, but i dont call the fire brigade, you would be able to accurately state that there were no known issues/fires at my house - that doesnt mean my house isnt actually on fire!
and you were treated with respect for long enough - youve rambled on so much and seemed to deliberately ignore the facts to such an extent im now convinced youre just trolling - surely you must understand why everyone is so exasperated with what youre saying?? your point has been answered/clarified - no known issues is not the same as 'this operating system works perfectly', and just because you dont understand that does not make it some orwellian conspiracy on apple's part!
Well said. God, Brian Greene, it is one thing to not understand something it is quite another to not understand it when it is explained to you over and over. Stop persisting as though even though you were wrong you had some kind of valid point to make and everyone should agree that it was valid. It wasn't. What Apple says to its developers is said so they they will understand it. You can learn what it means, but don't just jump in with accusations of misinformation on Apple's part. They aren't misinforming you, they aren't addressing you, but you are failing to properly inform yourself. God, enough with this dumb conspiracy nonsense!
There are, without question, open bugs in OS X, that Apple know about, that have not been fixed in any of these "no known issues" builds of 10.5.2.
i.e., if you guys think there were only 135 bugs in Apple's OS X bug-tracking database when they started work on 10.5.2, you are seriously deluded.
true, but most of us were just taking issue with brian's implication that apple are somehow lying to people by saying there were 'no known issues' - usually, 'issues' are more major than 'bugs'.
true, but most of us were just taking issue with brian's implication that apple are somehow lying to people by saying there were 'no known issues' - usually, 'issues' are more major than 'bugs'.
but perfectly valid point, i stand corrected
Indeed, Brian does seem to have missed the crucial point that the phrase "no known issues" is addressed directly and solely at developers and they know what it means. They aren't deceiving anyone.
I'm surprised the arguing has gone on for this long. Arguing with a person on an internet discussion forum is like arguing with a wall. You won't convince anybody to admit when they are wrong, and the majority of times you can't convince them to see your side of the point.
For what it's worth, I agree that "no known issues" means that Apple is unaware of any bugs in the latest release.
For the person who said that Apple is aware of more bugs than what an update fixes, you are correct. Of course they know of more bugs. However, not every bug is slated to be fixed in a particular OS version. They prioritize the bug list and fix accordingly. So "no known issues" for 10.5.2 doesn't mean that those issues slated to be fixed in 10.5.3 are being ignored. "No known issues" pertains to that particular OS version.
Now I can't believe I've joined in the argument, which won't convince anyone to alter their views.
I'm surprised the arguing has gone on for this long. Arguing with a person on an internet discussion forum is like arguing with a wall. You won't convince anybody to admit when they are wrong, and the majority of times you can't convince them to see your side of the point.
I've got to disagree with you there
There's been a fair few times where I've put my hand up and said "I'm wrong/I made a mistake, my bad, sorry". Others do it too. Indeed, we've already had at least one person in this thread say "I stand corrected".
I'm surprised the arguing has gone on for this long. Arguing with a person on an internet discussion forum is like arguing with a wall. You won't convince anybody to admit when they are wrong, and the majority of times you can't convince them to see your side of the point.
For what it's worth, I agree that "no known issues" means that Apple is unaware of any bugs in the latest release.
For the person who said that Apple is aware of more bugs than what an update fixes, you are correct. Of course they know of more bugs. However, not every bug is slated to be fixed in a particular OS version. They prioritize the bug list and fix accordingly. So "no known issues" for 10.5.2 doesn't mean that those issues slated to be fixed in 10.5.3 are being ignored. "No known issues" pertains to that particular OS version.
Now I can't believe I've joined in the argument, which won't convince anyone to alter their views.
Well you've convinced me! (Thus I refute you! )
People are not so irrational that they can just NEVER see a point ? but they don't like to back down in public, even when they can see that they are wrong.
One thing that Leopard seems to have done is increase the noise level on discussion forums ? much less so on AppleInsider than elsewhere I might add. There are waaay too many people who are complaining about Leopard who should just have heeded the advice not to install a dot zero release on their essential systems. It is just common sense. And they repeat the same whine every time mention is made of the next upgrade. I'm just waiting for it to start up here ? yet again!
Mr. H, there are 135 issues targeted for fixes in this release. That doesn't mean there were only 135 bugs in 10.5 to be fixed, just 135 slated for 10.5.2. I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of the fixes in 10.5.2 were identified before 10.5 went out the door, and some small number of what actually got into 10.5.2 was identified by external testers just recently. Its a huge prioritization process, if you tried to identify and fix all the bugs in every point release you'd never get anything out the door. Remember that some of the bugs in the bug tracker database won't even be considered to be bugs, and some bugs will never be fixed in the 10.5.x time frame. Some issues start with a low priority until someone figures out it affects another critical feature (or even an important customer) and then the effort for the fix is re-estimated and the list is re-ranked. If this seems like an arbitrary and capricious way to fix bugs, welcome to the club. Nobody likes the whole "beauty contest" element of it, but it does tend to get the most important and fixable bugs squashed.
At the risk of bringing the discussion back on topic, I certainly hope that TM backups over the network have been improved. As it stands, Leopard never compacts the sparsebundle image it creates on network shares. So, when the backup drive is full, it deletes every backup without realizing any free space.
Comments
I'm pretty sure that the "no known issues" means "there are no known issues with the things we reckon we've fixed". It doesn't mean "this build of OS X has no bugs".
I'm willing to bet that the number of open bugs for OS X numbers in the 1,000s.
You are correct, that is exactly what it means. When they say that there is "no known issues", that is in regards to the fixes that they have made. It does not imply that Mac OS X is perfect, nor does it imply that the fixes are perfect. It means, that with internal testing of the fixes, they haven't found any problems, but that the developers should explore the applications and commands that have had tweaks and report back if problems with those code alterations are found.
Oh, I agree that four builds with no known issues is a good thing. I'd simply like them to be more descriptive with what they are adding. I know Apple will always be vague at best so it's a moot point.
The thing that keeps jumping into my head is I wonder if they are working on hammering out all of these bugs now and really making Leopard shine, what they are going to be doing with the rest of their point updates. Seems to me like they are going all out of squash every bug right here and now.
It makes me wonder...
There's one thing that four builds with no known issues suggests to me and that is that their internal QA process isn't picking up the issues found between builds. That's a little worrying though I don't know their QA process. Do Apple release builds straight from engineering or after QA?
But yes, it appears they want to nail pretty much everything in 10.5.2.
Oh, I agree that four builds with no known issues is a good thing. I'd simply like them to be more descriptive with what they are adding. I know Apple will always be vague at best so it's a moot point.
The thing that keeps jumping into my head is I wonder if they are working on hammering out all of these bugs now and really making Leopard shine, what they are going to be doing with the rest of their point updates. Seems to me like they are going all out of squash every bug right here and now.
It makes me wonder...
As has been pointed out, 'no KNOWN issues' simply means that Apple don't KNOW of any issues with the software at the time of the build. As has also been pointed out, this is a standard phrase, and developers know what they're getting - Apple aren't misinforming or trying to hide problems; its just that you've misunderstood the meaning of the phrase.
Likewise, even if 10.5.2 'squashes every bug' in Leopard (oh how lovely that would be) it WON'T BE PERFECT! No code every is, really - there's always room for further optimisation, assuming there's a lot of code involved (which, in the case of a shiny new OS like Leopard, there is!). In addition to this, it is also possible that other minor bugs might show up that haven't so far been discovered because they relate to unusual software/hardware configs. One cannot assume that 10.5.2 will simply be 'fixed' and never ever need fixing again. Plus there's obviously room for further updating should any security vulnerabilities become known - not likely, but not impossible.
But I suspect that they plan to get Leopard more or less sorted in this update so they can focus on other tasks - like another os x (best to start early), or something else Steve Jobs hasn't told us about yet...
In the meantime, stop pointlessly grumbling about 'known issues', when you clearly don't know what you're on about...
This makes me believe they are just engaging in disinformation. Why not just say there are issues? It's obvious to me that if 9C30 tacked on three new fixes, those three fixes didn't exist in 9C27. Therefore there are issues. It appears to me that the "no known issues" statement from Apple can not be trusted.
The Unknown
As we know,
There are known knowns.
There are things we know we know.
We also know
There are known unknowns.
That is to say
We know there are some things
We do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns,
The ones we don't know
We don't know.
? Former US Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, Feb. 12, 2002 Department of Defense news briefing
1) No known issues
2) Users report new problems
3) Apple fixes new problems
4) No known issues
5) Release new build and repeat
This is how it's done. Quibble with the masters if you have to. Makes you look dumb.
looks like 10.5.2 will be one solid update all round.
Side bar: Off Topic I know but had to share ... As I have owned multiple Apple dealerships and a Mac software company I get asked by a lot of friends for help on Macs. One elderly lady I know phoned yesterday as she had a lot of problems with her new Computer. I was confused at first until I realized she didn't even have a Mac. She had bought a PC with Vista. When I pointed this out she assured me she had asked if they sold 'Apples' and she said "The young man assured me an Acer with Vista was the same thing. Vista is Apple and much better then XP as it had all the safety of OS X but this was just Microsoft's version of Apple." I was speechless!
Good gosh on the off-topic! Any chance you can share with us the name of the store this happened in? I would be taking that Acer back in a hot minute!
Morod
Take off the tinfoil hats people, its not a conspiracy or an orchestrated campaign of disinformation. Reread bwik's post, he understands the software development lifecycle.
Cycle:
1) No known issues
2) Users report new problems
3) Apple fixes new problems
4) No known issues
5) Release new build and repeat
This is how it's done. Quibble with the masters if you have to. Makes you look dumb.
John B.
bwik
bishely
aegisdesign
solipsism
and others. You have taught me the proper meaning of doublespeak. "No known issues" means there are issues, but we're conveniently disregarding those at the present and focusing upon the issues we just fixed and that there aren't any issues we've found related to those specific fixes.
Furthermore, it's understood now, that this information is not to be heard by those of us who accept that a red light is, in fact, a red light. This is where audience is key, and speaking to them is focused upon what they know.
I'm a firefighter by trade. When I tell you that there are no known issues with your house, I'm confident that you're place isn't secretly burning. This is the difference between our perspectives.
As for the verbal abuse I've received on this thread regarding this issue, I'm surprised. I remember a time when it would have been explained in a different way, without negativity or insults thrown in. My how times change.
I appreciate the continued slaps to the face by the likes of:
John B.
bwik
bishely
aegisdesign
solipsism
and others. You have taught me the proper meaning of doublespeak. "No known issues" means there are issues, but we're conveniently disregarding those at the present and focusing upon the issues we just fixed and that there aren't any issues we've found related to those specific fixes.
Furthermore, it's understood now, that this information is not to be heard by those of us who accept that a red light is, in fact, a red light. This is where audience is key, and speaking to them is focused upon what they know.
I'm a firefighter by trade. When I tell you that there are no known issues with your house, I'm confident that you're place isn't secretly burning. This is the difference between our perspectives.
As for the verbal abuse I've received on this thread regarding this issue, I'm surprised. I remember a time when it would have been explained in a different way, without negativity or insults thrown in. My how times change.
good god man, get over yourself - youre wrong. its not doublespeak, its not disinformation, its no KNOWN issues - apple themselves are not aware of any big issues, so they turn it over to the developers who then report any issues they find in their extensive testing of their own apps on the platform - apple themselves cant test EVERYTHING - no company can. this is the way it goes with ALL operating systems.
if my house is on fire, but i dont call the fire brigade, you would be able to accurately state that there were no known issues/fires at my house - that doesnt mean my house isnt actually on fire!
and you were treated with respect for long enough - youve rambled on so much and seemed to deliberately ignore the facts to such an extent im now convinced youre just trolling - surely you must understand why everyone is so exasperated with what youre saying?? your point has been answered/clarified - no known issues is not the same as 'this operating system works perfectly', and just because you dont understand that does not make it some orwellian conspiracy on apple's part!
You have taught me the proper meaning of doublespeak. "No known issues" means there are issues
There is no doublespeak. They can't say there are no issues because all software has issues. Saying that there are issues on every release serves no useful purpose for the developers. So they are left with the honest statement that there are no known issues.
Developers are not getting upset when they discover that isn't working properly since that is the reason for sending the build to the developers in the first place. Should they really be saying,
There are, without question, open bugs in OS X, that Apple know about, that have not been fixed in any of these "no known issues" builds of 10.5.2.
i.e., if you guys think there were only 135 bugs in Apple's OS X bug-tracking database when they started work on 10.5.2, you are seriously deluded.
good god man, get over yourself - youre wrong. its not doublespeak, its not disinformation, its no KNOWN issues - apple themselves are not aware of any big issues, so they turn it over to the developers who then report any issues they find in their extensive testing of their own apps on the platform - apple themselves cant test EVERYTHING - no company can. this is the way it goes with ALL operating systems.
if my house is on fire, but i dont call the fire brigade, you would be able to accurately state that there were no known issues/fires at my house - that doesnt mean my house isnt actually on fire!
and you were treated with respect for long enough - youve rambled on so much and seemed to deliberately ignore the facts to such an extent im now convinced youre just trolling - surely you must understand why everyone is so exasperated with what youre saying?? your point has been answered/clarified - no known issues is not the same as 'this operating system works perfectly', and just because you dont understand that does not make it some orwellian conspiracy on apple's part!
Well said. God, Brian Greene, it is one thing to not understand something it is quite another to not understand it when it is explained to you over and over. Stop persisting as though even though you were wrong you had some kind of valid point to make and everyone should agree that it was valid. It wasn't. What Apple says to its developers is said so they they will understand it. You can learn what it means, but don't just jump in with accusations of misinformation on Apple's part. They aren't misinforming you, they aren't addressing you, but you are failing to properly inform yourself. God, enough with this dumb conspiracy nonsense!
You know, most of you in this thread are wrong.
There are, without question, open bugs in OS X, that Apple know about, that have not been fixed in any of these "no known issues" builds of 10.5.2.
i.e., if you guys think there were only 135 bugs in Apple's OS X bug-tracking database when they started work on 10.5.2, you are seriously deluded.
true, but most of us were just taking issue with brian's implication that apple are somehow lying to people by saying there were 'no known issues' - usually, 'issues' are more major than 'bugs'.
but perfectly valid point, i stand corrected
true, but most of us were just taking issue with brian's implication that apple are somehow lying to people by saying there were 'no known issues' - usually, 'issues' are more major than 'bugs'.
but perfectly valid point, i stand corrected
Indeed, Brian does seem to have missed the crucial point that the phrase "no known issues" is addressed directly and solely at developers and they know what it means. They aren't deceiving anyone.
For what it's worth, I agree that "no known issues" means that Apple is unaware of any bugs in the latest release.
For the person who said that Apple is aware of more bugs than what an update fixes, you are correct. Of course they know of more bugs. However, not every bug is slated to be fixed in a particular OS version. They prioritize the bug list and fix accordingly. So "no known issues" for 10.5.2 doesn't mean that those issues slated to be fixed in 10.5.3 are being ignored. "No known issues" pertains to that particular OS version.
Now I can't believe I've joined in the argument, which won't convince anyone to alter their views.
I'm surprised the arguing has gone on for this long. Arguing with a person on an internet discussion forum is like arguing with a wall. You won't convince anybody to admit when they are wrong, and the majority of times you can't convince them to see your side of the point.
I've got to disagree with you there
There's been a fair few times where I've put my hand up and said "I'm wrong/I made a mistake, my bad, sorry". Others do it too. Indeed, we've already had at least one person in this thread say "I stand corrected".
I'm surprised the arguing has gone on for this long. Arguing with a person on an internet discussion forum is like arguing with a wall. You won't convince anybody to admit when they are wrong, and the majority of times you can't convince them to see your side of the point.
For what it's worth, I agree that "no known issues" means that Apple is unaware of any bugs in the latest release.
For the person who said that Apple is aware of more bugs than what an update fixes, you are correct. Of course they know of more bugs. However, not every bug is slated to be fixed in a particular OS version. They prioritize the bug list and fix accordingly. So "no known issues" for 10.5.2 doesn't mean that those issues slated to be fixed in 10.5.3 are being ignored. "No known issues" pertains to that particular OS version.
Now I can't believe I've joined in the argument, which won't convince anyone to alter their views.
Well you've convinced me! (Thus I refute you!
People are not so irrational that they can just NEVER see a point ? but they don't like to back down in public, even when they can see that they are wrong.
One thing that Leopard seems to have done is increase the noise level on discussion forums ? much less so on AppleInsider than elsewhere I might add. There are waaay too many people who are complaining about Leopard who should just have heeded the advice not to install a dot zero release on their essential systems. It is just common sense. And they repeat the same whine every time mention is made of the next upgrade. I'm just waiting for it to start up here ? yet again!