Well if he actually used that word "cannibalizing" then he has lost all credibility with me.
Nope I think it is to early to tell. As with all things Apple you more or less have to discount the first three months of sales before you can get a reasonable trend. The problem is that Apple has many a customer that do not make rational purchasing decisions. Call them fan-bois, early adopters or rich boys with little sense, just realize that many have needs to be meet when the purchase computing hardware that has nothing to do with the cache that comes from being the first.
Dave
I don't disagree that it's too early to make a definitive statement, but for all the people here saying it's a failure already, to me, if it adds to the Mac base by defining its own category and doesn't "encroach" (rather than "cannibalize") on the rest of the lineup, then it's doing its job.
On the contrary if Apple hadn't messed up the AIR I could have seen it selling in numbers far exceeding the MacBook. The killer is it wouldn't have taken a lot to change people impressions of the machine. Better pricing and the proper port configurations would have done it.
The problem is the AIR just isn't the machine for many of us that need to budget our computing purchases and expect those purchase to be useful for a long time. For many of us the AIR would be OK as a secondary computer but not a primary one.
Dave
For the last time, the MBA is meant to be a niche machine. It was never expected to exceed the MacBook in sales, and no reasonable person would expect it to do so.
Apple didn't leave out ports because they thought it would be fun. There is no room for standard port configurations and if that's important to you, go buy a MacBook or MacBook Pro.
If you need to "budget your computing purchases and expect those purchase to be useful for a long time" you are not the target consumer for the MBA.
You don't think an thinner, ultra-light PC can be produced with appeal to a PC owner? What makes you think that only Apple can produce this?
I never know where you are coming from, Teckstud. I never said another OEM could create one, in fact, Apple is late to the table. The question was whether the MBA will increase Mac sales.
When will people understand that this computer is not aimed at the average user?
Because it is critical to the units success. The wants and needs of the average user are in many ways universal.
Quote:
Compare to other portables weighing 3 lbs and you will find that you are wrong.
Frankly i"m not interested in comparing the AIR to hardware that has never been successful in the market place. What concerns me is the value of the hardware I'm buying and the excess profit that will go to Apple. The value equation is so unbalanced that the AIR only becomes attractive if you have money to burn. Even then it is so constrained on capability that even people with money to burn will often reject such hardware.
Look at it this way computer are commodities and no matter how well you dress them up at their heart they all have the same hardware. You can pay a little bit for that hardware or a lot it is all up to you.
But we already knew that. If a Lexus cost $10,000, they'd sell a whole lot more too.
You also have to realize that people are actually getting something for the money they spend on a Lexus. Not so with the AIR as they are actually getting less.
What the hell are you talking about? Do you actually have a point, or are you just trolling?
If anything you're the one trolling. We were discussing the pros and cons...price, speed, whatever...then you jump in and act like you're Billy-Bad-A** with all the answers. Apparently if we don't agree with your opinion we're idiots.
Now that I've been thoroughly distracted from the the topic at hand...my main point is that unless you really want the thinness/portability of MBA, then your money would probably be better spent on a Macbook.
And of course MBA sales aren't going to be through the roof, like everyone has said a 1,000 times, it's a niche market. Hopefully the Apple folks weren't expecting these things to be their top sellers, because it's not gonna happen.
If you don't clearly see the benefits of the Macbook Air, then you're not the target audience.
It's easier to like it if you fly twice a week, over 100,000 miles per year like I do for work (butt in seat miles, not bonus miles), and 20,000+ miles / yr for vacations.
If you take it from client site, to car / subway / bus, to hotel, everyday, the 3lbs savings over a Macbook Pro really makes a difference.
BTW, I wouldn't be caught dead bringing a white Macbook into a business meeting no matter what the cost savings. Nobody would take you seriously unless you were talking to other designers or creative people.
You also have to realize that people are actually getting something for the money they spend on a Lexus. Not so with the AIR as they are actually getting less.
Dave
I agree that the Lexus example wasn't great but the logic is sound. There are many examples of expensive items that are not practical for the majority but cost more.
If anything you're the one trolling. We were discussing the pros and cons...price, speed, whatever...then you jump in and act like you're Billy-Bad-A** with all the answers. Apparently if we don't agree with your opinion we're idiots.
Now that I've been thoroughly distracted from the the topic at hand...my main point is that unless you really want the thinness/portability of MBA, then your money would probably be better spent on a Macbook.
And of course MBA sales aren't going to be through the roof, like everyone has said a 1,000 times, it's a niche market. Hopefully the Apple folks weren't expecting these things to be their top sellers, because it's not gonna happen.
That's pretty much what he's been saying.
I think you've missed what's been said for the last two pages.
Because it is critical to the units success. The wants and needs of the average user are in many ways universal.
So I guess the Mac Pro is a failure since it is aimed at pros and not the Average User? Same with the MBP? Same with the ipod touch, iphone, and classic?
Heck, by that logic shouldn't car companies stop selling pickup trucks since the Average Driver wants a sedan?
Why is it so bad for a company to figure out that different buyers want different things, and make multiple products aimed at those different buyers?
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
You also have to realize that people are actually getting something for the money they spend on a Lexus. Not so with the AIR as they are actually getting less.
This is the kind of statement that gets you labled a troll. People are getting a size and weight reduction for the extra money. Do you really not understand that advantage, or are you just pretending it doesn't exist for the benefit of your argument?
Quote:
Originally Posted by emoney35
If anything you're the one trolling. We were discussing the pros and cons...price, speed, whatever...then you jump in and act like you're Billy-Bad-A** with all the answers. Apparently if we don't agree with your opinion we're idiots.
Um...what? I asked for a clarification on a statement...maybe you could help?
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud
It's a niche market- end of story. I'm sure you would be the first in line to buy the next one if it's .5 inch thick and weighs 1 pound and cost $15,000
So what part of that is "discussing the pros and cons"? I just don't get the point. You just defended this statement, could you kindly explain it to me since obviously that means you must understand it?
Beyond that, the rest of your post agrees with what I've been saying...have you even been reading the posts you bitched about?
For the last time, the MBA is meant to be a niche machine. It was never expected to exceed the MacBook in sales, and no reasonable person would expect it to do so.
Repeating something that is not justified does not make it so!
The fact is that Apple has been mum on just what AIR market is suppose to be. As to sales I will put this forward - AIR could have easily been Apples leading machine, sales wise, if they had taken into consideration a few user needs. It is very difficult to walk into an Apple store and not be taken by AIR's appearance or the quality of its screen. The problem comes in thinking about how one can make use of the machine.
Quote:
Apple didn't leave out ports because they thought it would be fun. There is no room for standard port configurations and if that's important to you, go buy a MacBook or MacBook Pro.
That is complete BS, anyone taking a look at the AIR would realize that there is room to address the leading issues with this machine.
In one case you don't even need to change the machine physically. Simply using the same Audio port as used on the iPhone would have given us Audio in and out for example.
Quote:
If you need to "budget your computing purchases and expect those purchase to be useful for a long time" you are not the target consumer for the MBA.
Maybe maybe not, but even in the corporate world one has to budget for computing hardware. Sure there may be a few highly placed executives that have a free reign but to be honest even they expect value for their money. Many more depend on the support and guidance of their corporate IT departments.
In any event to take a 360 here Apple has been mum with respect to AIR's intended market. Frankly any high end market that many believe that this machine is targeted at simply doesn't exist in the Mac world. Or if it does is such a small part of the market as to be impossible to find. The AIR needs mass appeal simply because there are not enough potential customers willing to buy Apple hardware in the corporate world nor the frequent traveler world. Even if Apple stuffed XP into the box it still would not be attractive to this segment. Given Apple lack of comment on what market this machine is designed for maybe we can agree that it is the Blooming Idiot segment!
This is the kind of statement that gets you labled a troll. People are getting a size and weight reduction for the extra money. Do you really not understand that advantage, or are you just pretending it doesn't exist for the benefit of your argument?
So what part of that is "discussing the pros and cons"? I just don't get the point. You just defended this statement, could you kindly explain it to me since obviously that means you must understand it?
Beyond that, the rest of your post agrees with what I've been saying...have you even been reading the posts you bitched about?
STOP CALLING PEOPLE TROLLS. Just because you points are wrong you have to resort to childish name calling? Haven't you ever hear that "If you name it must be because you are it." ONLY A TROLL WOULD KNOW HIS OWN TO CALL.
You're telling me to buy a cheap heavy laptop and I can't be a sarcastic back to you by telling you to buy a superexpensive ultra-light. Like why does that not make sense to you?
The MacBook Air is a niche product designed for an ultra premium market.
Yes and the market has shown again and again that that market doesn't exist. The problem is most people see the computer market as a tools market. Tools that you can't get work done with are not very valuable.
Quote:
If all you can afford is a MacBook, then go and buy that, or that ugly Toshiba you seem to be enamored with.
It is not a question of being able to afford it. It is a question of being able to leverage what you purchased after buying it. Especially considering that Apple itself has more capable machines at a lower price.
Quote:
Anyone who would buy a computer from Staples deserves an ugly machine anyway.
And just what is wrong with Staples. Time to grow up and realize that computers are commodities.
Quote:
However, Apple has nothing to apologize for with the MacBook Air.
Well yeah it does.
Quote:
It is what it is, and as CEO-bait to get Macs into the business market, doesn't have to sell in really high numbers to be successful.
Even if Apple stuffed XP on to this machine you won't be seeing many CEO's using this device. I'm beginning to wonder if anybody here has any understanding of corporate America or not.
Mac = Apple PC HW + Apple PC OS. It increases both. No one is claiming that it will be increased by leaps and bounds but it will be increased.
Again how do you know this? Do you have a crytal ball? You always make these points as absolute when they are just predictions. Where did you read that PC people are buying MBA's?
So what part of that is "discussing the pros and cons"? I just don't get the point. You just defended this statement, could you kindly explain it to me since obviously that means you must understand it?
Beyond that, the rest of your post agrees with what I've been saying...have you even been reading the posts you bitched about?
I wasn't referring to his post specifically, I was talking in a general sense seeing how you jumped all over my posts/discussion with other people. All I was doing was using your words to reinforce my point. All you've been doing is looking for arguments or ways to insult/belittle other posts. It's truly ironic that you go and say other people are trolling. You sir, are the definition of a troll.
Apparently your trolling has worked too, because I am now lost at the topic at hand.
The question was whether it would increase the OS share.
First, isn't the only way for it NOT to increase market share is if 100% of them are sold to mac users? Do you really think they won't sell any of these to PC users?
And second, isn't a mac sale that replaces an old retiring mac a good thing, even if that particular sale doesn't increase user base?
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud
STOP CALLING PEOPLE TROLLS. Just because you points are wrong you have to resort to childish name calling? Haven't you ever hear that "If you name it must be because you are it." ONLY A TROLL WOULD KNOW HIS OWN TO CALL.
You're telling me to buy a cheap heavy laptop and I can't be a sarcastic back to you by telling you to buy a superexpensive ultra-light. Like why does that not make sense to you?
More arguing for arguing sake instead of addressing the issues. Can we get back on topic?
Is smaller/lighter an advantage in a laptop or not?
Are there people willing to pay more for smaller/lighter or not?
Are there people willing to make sacrifices in performance/features to get smaller/lighter or not?
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
Yes and the market has shown again and again that that market doesn't exist.
If that's the case, why do so many companies make models for this nonexistent market? If they weren't selling any, wouldn't they stop making them?
Comments
Well if he actually used that word "cannibalizing" then he has lost all credibility with me.
Nope I think it is to early to tell. As with all things Apple you more or less have to discount the first three months of sales before you can get a reasonable trend. The problem is that Apple has many a customer that do not make rational purchasing decisions. Call them fan-bois, early adopters or rich boys with little sense, just realize that many have needs to be meet when the purchase computing hardware that has nothing to do with the cache that comes from being the first.
Dave
I don't disagree that it's too early to make a definitive statement, but for all the people here saying it's a failure already, to me, if it adds to the Mac base by defining its own category and doesn't "encroach" (rather than "cannibalize") on the rest of the lineup, then it's doing its job.
On the contrary if Apple hadn't messed up the AIR I could have seen it selling in numbers far exceeding the MacBook. The killer is it wouldn't have taken a lot to change people impressions of the machine. Better pricing and the proper port configurations would have done it.
The problem is the AIR just isn't the machine for many of us that need to budget our computing purchases and expect those purchase to be useful for a long time. For many of us the AIR would be OK as a secondary computer but not a primary one.
Dave
For the last time, the MBA is meant to be a niche machine. It was never expected to exceed the MacBook in sales, and no reasonable person would expect it to do so.
Apple didn't leave out ports because they thought it would be fun. There is no room for standard port configurations and if that's important to you, go buy a MacBook or MacBook Pro.
If you need to "budget your computing purchases and expect those purchase to be useful for a long time" you are not the target consumer for the MBA.
You don't think an thinner, ultra-light PC can be produced with appeal to a PC owner? What makes you think that only Apple can produce this?
I never know where you are coming from, Teckstud. I never said another OEM could create one, in fact, Apple is late to the table. The question was whether the MBA will increase Mac sales.
When will people understand that this computer is not aimed at the average user?
Because it is critical to the units success. The wants and needs of the average user are in many ways universal.
Compare to other portables weighing 3 lbs and you will find that you are wrong.
Frankly i"m not interested in comparing the AIR to hardware that has never been successful in the market place. What concerns me is the value of the hardware I'm buying and the excess profit that will go to Apple. The value equation is so unbalanced that the AIR only becomes attractive if you have money to burn. Even then it is so constrained on capability that even people with money to burn will often reject such hardware.
Look at it this way computer are commodities and no matter how well you dress them up at their heart they all have the same hardware. You can pay a little bit for that hardware or a lot it is all up to you.
Dave
But we already knew that. If a Lexus cost $10,000, they'd sell a whole lot more too.
You also have to realize that people are actually getting something for the money they spend on a Lexus. Not so with the AIR as they are actually getting less.
Dave
What the hell are you talking about? Do you actually have a point, or are you just trolling?
If anything you're the one trolling. We were discussing the pros and cons...price, speed, whatever...then you jump in and act like you're Billy-Bad-A** with all the answers. Apparently if we don't agree with your opinion we're idiots.
Now that I've been thoroughly distracted from the the topic at hand...my main point is that unless you really want the thinness/portability of MBA, then your money would probably be better spent on a Macbook.
And of course MBA sales aren't going to be through the roof, like everyone has said a 1,000 times, it's a niche market. Hopefully the Apple folks weren't expecting these things to be their top sellers, because it's not gonna happen.
This model strikes me like a fancy German two-seater. Nobody expects it to sell all that much,
1. I own a 1999 BMW Z3.
2. I just bought an AirBook.
See me fit into target demo precisely. -- except that I never visit Starbucks.
It's easier to like it if you fly twice a week, over 100,000 miles per year like I do for work (butt in seat miles, not bonus miles), and 20,000+ miles / yr for vacations.
If you take it from client site, to car / subway / bus, to hotel, everyday, the 3lbs savings over a Macbook Pro really makes a difference.
BTW, I wouldn't be caught dead bringing a white Macbook into a business meeting no matter what the cost savings. Nobody would take you seriously unless you were talking to other designers or creative people.
You also have to realize that people are actually getting something for the money they spend on a Lexus. Not so with the AIR as they are actually getting less.
Dave
I agree that the Lexus example wasn't great but the logic is sound. There are many examples of expensive items that are not practical for the majority but cost more.
If anything you're the one trolling. We were discussing the pros and cons...price, speed, whatever...then you jump in and act like you're Billy-Bad-A** with all the answers. Apparently if we don't agree with your opinion we're idiots.
Now that I've been thoroughly distracted from the the topic at hand...my main point is that unless you really want the thinness/portability of MBA, then your money would probably be better spent on a Macbook.
And of course MBA sales aren't going to be through the roof, like everyone has said a 1,000 times, it's a niche market. Hopefully the Apple folks weren't expecting these things to be their top sellers, because it's not gonna happen.
That's pretty much what he's been saying.
I think you've missed what's been said for the last two pages.
Because it is critical to the units success. The wants and needs of the average user are in many ways universal.
So I guess the Mac Pro is a failure since it is aimed at pros and not the Average User? Same with the MBP? Same with the ipod touch, iphone, and classic?
Heck, by that logic shouldn't car companies stop selling pickup trucks since the Average Driver wants a sedan?
Why is it so bad for a company to figure out that different buyers want different things, and make multiple products aimed at those different buyers?
You also have to realize that people are actually getting something for the money they spend on a Lexus. Not so with the AIR as they are actually getting less.
This is the kind of statement that gets you labled a troll. People are getting a size and weight reduction for the extra money. Do you really not understand that advantage, or are you just pretending it doesn't exist for the benefit of your argument?
If anything you're the one trolling. We were discussing the pros and cons...price, speed, whatever...then you jump in and act like you're Billy-Bad-A** with all the answers. Apparently if we don't agree with your opinion we're idiots.
Um...what? I asked for a clarification on a statement...maybe you could help?
It's a niche market- end of story. I'm sure you would be the first in line to buy the next one if it's .5 inch thick and weighs 1 pound and cost $15,000
So what part of that is "discussing the pros and cons"? I just don't get the point. You just defended this statement, could you kindly explain it to me since obviously that means you must understand it?
Beyond that, the rest of your post agrees with what I've been saying...have you even been reading the posts you bitched about?
For the last time, the MBA is meant to be a niche machine. It was never expected to exceed the MacBook in sales, and no reasonable person would expect it to do so.
Repeating something that is not justified does not make it so!
The fact is that Apple has been mum on just what AIR market is suppose to be. As to sales I will put this forward - AIR could have easily been Apples leading machine, sales wise, if they had taken into consideration a few user needs. It is very difficult to walk into an Apple store and not be taken by AIR's appearance or the quality of its screen. The problem comes in thinking about how one can make use of the machine.
Apple didn't leave out ports because they thought it would be fun. There is no room for standard port configurations and if that's important to you, go buy a MacBook or MacBook Pro.
That is complete BS, anyone taking a look at the AIR would realize that there is room to address the leading issues with this machine.
In one case you don't even need to change the machine physically. Simply using the same Audio port as used on the iPhone would have given us Audio in and out for example.
If you need to "budget your computing purchases and expect those purchase to be useful for a long time" you are not the target consumer for the MBA.
Maybe maybe not, but even in the corporate world one has to budget for computing hardware. Sure there may be a few highly placed executives that have a free reign but to be honest even they expect value for their money. Many more depend on the support and guidance of their corporate IT departments.
In any event to take a 360 here Apple has been mum with respect to AIR's intended market. Frankly any high end market that many believe that this machine is targeted at simply doesn't exist in the Mac world. Or if it does is such a small part of the market as to be impossible to find. The AIR needs mass appeal simply because there are not enough potential customers willing to buy Apple hardware in the corporate world nor the frequent traveler world. Even if Apple stuffed XP into the box it still would not be attractive to this segment. Given Apple lack of comment on what market this machine is designed for maybe we can agree that it is the Blooming Idiot segment!
Dave
The question was whether the MBA will increase Mac sales.
The question was whether it would increase the OS share.
The question was whether it would increase the OS share.
Mac = Apple PC HW + Apple PC OS. It increases both. No one is claiming that it will be increased by leaps and bounds but it will be increased.
This is the kind of statement that gets you labled a troll. People are getting a size and weight reduction for the extra money. Do you really not understand that advantage, or are you just pretending it doesn't exist for the benefit of your argument?
So what part of that is "discussing the pros and cons"? I just don't get the point. You just defended this statement, could you kindly explain it to me since obviously that means you must understand it?
Beyond that, the rest of your post agrees with what I've been saying...have you even been reading the posts you bitched about?
STOP CALLING PEOPLE TROLLS. Just because you points are wrong you have to resort to childish name calling? Haven't you ever hear that "If you name it must be because you are it." ONLY A TROLL WOULD KNOW HIS OWN TO CALL.
You're telling me to buy a cheap heavy laptop and I can't be a sarcastic back to you by telling you to buy a superexpensive ultra-light. Like why does that not make sense to you?
The MacBook Air is a niche product designed for an ultra premium market.
Yes and the market has shown again and again that that market doesn't exist. The problem is most people see the computer market as a tools market. Tools that you can't get work done with are not very valuable.
If all you can afford is a MacBook, then go and buy that, or that ugly Toshiba you seem to be enamored with.
It is not a question of being able to afford it. It is a question of being able to leverage what you purchased after buying it. Especially considering that Apple itself has more capable machines at a lower price.
Anyone who would buy a computer from Staples deserves an ugly machine anyway.
And just what is wrong with Staples. Time to grow up and realize that computers are commodities.
However, Apple has nothing to apologize for with the MacBook Air.
Well yeah it does.
It is what it is, and as CEO-bait to get Macs into the business market, doesn't have to sell in really high numbers to be successful.
Even if Apple stuffed XP on to this machine you won't be seeing many CEO's using this device. I'm beginning to wonder if anybody here has any understanding of corporate America or not.
Dave
Mac = Apple PC HW + Apple PC OS. It increases both. No one is claiming that it will be increased by leaps and bounds but it will be increased.
Again how do you know this? Do you have a crytal ball? You always make these points as absolute when they are just predictions. Where did you read that PC people are buying MBA's?
So what part of that is "discussing the pros and cons"? I just don't get the point. You just defended this statement, could you kindly explain it to me since obviously that means you must understand it?
Beyond that, the rest of your post agrees with what I've been saying...have you even been reading the posts you bitched about?
I wasn't referring to his post specifically, I was talking in a general sense seeing how you jumped all over my posts/discussion with other people. All I was doing was using your words to reinforce my point. All you've been doing is looking for arguments or ways to insult/belittle other posts. It's truly ironic that you go and say other people are trolling. You sir, are the definition of a troll.
Apparently your trolling has worked too, because I am now lost at the topic at hand.
The question was whether it would increase the OS share.
First, isn't the only way for it NOT to increase market share is if 100% of them are sold to mac users? Do you really think they won't sell any of these to PC users?
And second, isn't a mac sale that replaces an old retiring mac a good thing, even if that particular sale doesn't increase user base?
STOP CALLING PEOPLE TROLLS. Just because you points are wrong you have to resort to childish name calling? Haven't you ever hear that "If you name it must be because you are it." ONLY A TROLL WOULD KNOW HIS OWN TO CALL.
You're telling me to buy a cheap heavy laptop and I can't be a sarcastic back to you by telling you to buy a superexpensive ultra-light. Like why does that not make sense to you?
More arguing for arguing sake instead of addressing the issues. Can we get back on topic?
Is smaller/lighter an advantage in a laptop or not?
Are there people willing to pay more for smaller/lighter or not?
Are there people willing to make sacrifices in performance/features to get smaller/lighter or not?
Yes and the market has shown again and again that that market doesn't exist.
If that's the case, why do so many companies make models for this nonexistent market? If they weren't selling any, wouldn't they stop making them?