Not really a surprise, the price does push the market base for this product outside the mass consumer market.
When I saw the Macbook Air at Macworld, my first thought was college students, women and other people who are very style oriented would love this laptop, but the price premium compared to the Macbook would force many to look at the Air and buy a Macbook. I am sure those same consumers buy the basic white macbook in greater numbers then pay the premium for the black macbook.
Hypothetically, as the product infrastructure takes off, I could see the Air product line expand with lower and higher price point and feature models. What we see currently as the AIR could replace the Macbook at the Macbook price point and a larger screen feature rich model for users demanding higher performance. The I-Phone has followed this theory to a point with lower memory models dropping in price as higher memory models come out at the original price point.
If the Macbook Air had a 20%-25% price premium over the base Macbook, I would probably buy one, As it is today, it cost an extra $101 for the base Macbook Pro compared to an Air with the external drive add on. The lightweight and design of the Air would be nice, but dollar for dollar, I would spend just over 5% more on a Macbook Pro.
True. But not only price pushed the market base ... features and performance did as well.
Furthermore, there are many seeming intangibles that one might imagine Apple will be looking for from the MBA. One, they want people coming through the door.
I won't argue that that is a possibility but let face it there are cheaper ways to do that.
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Two, There are technical breakthroughs, like the processor, which will have use in other devices.
Not in the slightest. All the processor is is a special build/package for Apple. It isn't something that will be around long as Intel has mainstream solutions coming on in the very near future that would replace it.
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There is the multi-touch track pad, too, and, in general, the efficient use of space is a breakthrough. Look for versions of these to find their way into other products this year.
This is what I don't get this allusion to the use of space or that there is some miracle in the PC boards in the AIR. They are run of the mill PC boards with a lot left out. I don't consider that an advancement at all. As far as the rest of the physical space I don't see that as being used all that well, simple design alterations could have solved most of the I/O problems on this machine.
Not really a surprise, the price does push the market base for this product outside the mass consumer market.
When I saw the Macbook Air at Macworld, my first thought was college students, women and other people who are very style oriented would love this laptop, but the price premium compared to the Macbook would force many to look at the Air and buy a Macbook. I am sure those same consumers buy the basic white macbook in greater numbers then pay the premium for the black macbook.
Hypothetically, as the product infrastructure takes off, I could see the Air product line expand with lower and higher price point and feature models. What we see currently as the AIR could replace the Macbook at the Macbook price point and a larger screen feature rich model for users demanding higher performance. The I-Phone has followed this theory to a point with lower memory models dropping in price as higher memory models come out at the original price point.
If the Macbook Air had a 20%-25% price premium over the base Macbook, I would probably buy one, As it is today, it cost an extra $101 for the base Macbook Pro compared to an Air with the external drive add on. The lightweight and design of the Air would be nice, but dollar for dollar, I would spend just over 5% more on a Macbook Pro.
Well said my friend. If the MBA was $1200 or $1300 it would appeal to the "average" user. As it stands now, they have priced it into the niche market.
1.) Wouldn't new MacBooksPros especially a 12' version sell better?
2.) Didn't most people want a tablet at a lower cost instead of this since it's not very powerful?
3.) Are PC people really going to switch for this with all that it's lacking?
1) I don't know, and you don't either. And for all we know, apple has one of those in the works as well.
2) Again, I don't think either of us knows what most people want. And again, apple may release a tablet as well.
3) Yes, although we'll have to see to what degree. In some cases, it will also get PC users into apple stores to check it out, and they'll end up walking out with a MB or MBP.
Neiman Marcus does a billion in sales a quarter. Why is it a bad thing to go after some of those dollars (especially when they already have a model like the macbook)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud
Of I course I believe it will sell and sell well- to MAC users. But that does not increase OS share.- unless you count with trickery like Sony does with it's products and double count for each computer used per household.
You really don't think they'll sell a meaningful amount to people getting it is their first mac? Overall, I think apple says 50% of macs bought at their stores are PC users. I think that number may be a bit lower, but even if 20-30% are to PC users, that's a modest increase in market share (and people who may consider a mac when they get around to replacing their desktop).
Not to mention PC users who come in to check out the air and walk out with a MB or MBP instead - while it's not a sale of the air, it's still an increase in marketshare because of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuneman07
Very simple:
The computer is .25 inches thinner than a MB, weighs 2 lbs less, has a slower processor, 80 gig hard drive, slightly larger footprint, loses several basic features and costs 700 dollars more. Whats the niche? People who are willing to pay this premium obviously. Are there many? Probably not. This computer was a really stupid idea and is going to flop pretty badly because it doesn't make sense. Call me a troll for stating the facts I suppose.
The specs are facts.
The niche is people willing to pay, and people who value the reduction in size and weight, mainly people who travel heavily.
The idea that there are not many in that niche is your opinion (along with being stupid, flopping, and not making sense).
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
Both the Mac Pro and the MBP are equipped to satisfy the needs of the average user and then some.
Except that they are overkill for an average user and way more expensive. Why are you OK with charging more for a box not tailored to the average needs in those cases, but not with the MBA?
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
Hey now I drive a pickup! In any event my pickup still comes with the I/O to meet the needs of an average user. That is it has a heater, window defroster, nice seats, roll down windows.
And yet the average pickup only seats two comfortably - it's a design that doesn't meet the average need, but they still sell plenty. The point is that companies make products that don't please everyone. And they make plenty of money on those products.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
The point in the computer world is that a device becomes very unusable once the real I/O drops below a certain point. There is a level of I/O that everyone needs and that isn't meet on the AIR.
It may be unusable for you, but that doesn't mean it's unusable for everyone. I have a laptop, and I never use the optical drive or ports beyond USB. You continue to speak of "everyone"...what qualifies you to be the spokesman for "everyone"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
I fail to see where that is a troll as that is exactly what the problem is they are getting far less for a lot more money. A size and weight reduction by the way that is not really an exercise in new technology. Sure they got a custom packaged processor from Intel but the mother boards are pretty run of the mill. Due to everything being left out they shouldn't be considered expensive or in any way premium technology over any other laptop.
I didn't say a size and weight reduction is "an exercise in new technology". I said it's an advantage to the user.
They are sacrificing some features, but they are gaining an advantage in size and weight. YOU don't value that advantage. But that doesn't mean that advantage doesn't exist, or that nobody else values it. Do you at least acknowledge that advantage?
And you need to realize that making a product smaller makes it more expensive. Miniaturization costs money, more than the amount saved by leaving off a couple ports. If apple was screwing customers on the pricing for this, find me a comparable machine (this size and weight) in the MB price range. They don't exist.
I won't argue that that is a possibility but let face it there are cheaper ways to do that.
Not in the slightest. All the processor is is a special build/package for Apple. It isn't something that will be around long as Intel has mainstream solutions coming on in the very near future that would replace it.
This is what I don't get this allusion to the use of space or that there is some miracle in the PC boards in the AIR. They are run of the mill PC boards with a lot left out. I don't consider that an advancement at all. As far as the rest of the physical space I don't see that as being used all that well, simple design alterations could have solved most of the I/O problems on this machine.
DAve
While Apple is certainly the first usage of this Merom on a 22x22mm chip Intel did announce it's plans for reducing the chip down from 35x35mm to the MBA chip size many months before the MBA was announced.
There is also evidence that others OEMs will have access to this chip, too. I wonder if Apple is getting anything from Intel for it's position here. Id est, it almost seems as if Apple built the MBA around the processor to help sell a new chip for Intel. If so, then is Apple getting any kick back from any new OEMs jumping on board or getting more exclusivity to new chips.
What surprises me is the defense is virtually everyone admits that this is a niche machine ... And if you say only the rich will buy it you are all of a sudden a "richaphobe" or a troll.
I'm flatly saying that even the rich won't buy this machine. Contrary to popular opinion they do have a little bit of gray mater between their ears and can see the AIR for what it is. Sure Apple might be successful in selling to Paris Hilton but even she would have problems as there is no Firewire to plug in her video camera.
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Apple made bad design decisions on this that cost them sales and . The analysts here have proved it with the sales numbers which will not get better I assure you. Early adopter wonderlust will go away soon.
Yep I give the machine 3 months for sales to tank.
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Could they have made it a little smaller in footprint to make it more appealing: Yes, look at all the blank space around the screen!
Well they could of but I don't really believe this is how we turn AIR into a hot selling product.
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Could they have put a faster processor in: Yes, but admittedly difficult.
I really don't see the processor as an issue. Sure many have been conditioned that faster is always better but there are so many other short comings that processor speed means nothing on this device.
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Could they have had more that 80 gigs: Yes, Definitely yes.
They also need to address the rip off pricing of the SSD. There is no justification for that high price.
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Could they have put more ports on it to broaden appeal: Yes, Definitely yes.
Not to broaden appeal but to eliminate that mass revulsion at the lack of ports.
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Could they have sold it a cheaper price: Yes
Much cheaper like less than a MacBook.
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Could they have put a replaceable battery in: Yes Sony did... at same weight as apple.
The battery is an interesting issue. For many a replaceable battery is a better choice, but I could see the day when that won't be permitted. Mostly due to environmental issues and forced recycling.
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Apple = Innovative (usually ... but not this time).
I'm not sure we could call AIR a lack in innovation it is more like a lack of understanding the customer. Lets face it there are good things in AIR, but the sum of the parts don't end up being $1700.
Well said my friend. If the MBA was $1200 or $1300 it would appeal to the "average" user. As it stands now, they have priced it into the niche market.
Let me make sure I'm understanding the criticisms correctly.
1 Apple should have priced the air lower (price it like the macbook...also meaning it couldn't have the same degree of miniaturization, so it would be bigger and heavier...like the macbook)
2 Apple should have added more features (making it larger/heavier...like the macbook)
So it boils down to overall it should be more like the macbook. But why bother making a new model in that case?
I guess people want apple to take the macbook and shrink the size and weight...but without cutting features, and without raising the price.
If it really was possible to get all the MB features into a much thinner and lighter box for the same price, wouldn't some company be doing just that (and selling a ton?).
I completely agree. If they want to sell more they need to drop the price. $1799 is way too much for 1.6 GHz @ 4200rpm. And shoot, only 80GB hard drive?? An iPod has twice that. Sure it has the portability/coolness factor but that surely isn't worth the extra dough. Considering the intro Macbook is essentially faster and starts at $1099, on speed alone the Air should be down around $900. To have a premium of $900 for the thinness factor is ridiculous.
Your statements are ridiculous too. A compact size has a higher cost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by emoney35
I don't know for sure, but I'd be willing to bet that 1.6 GHz is one of the slower processor speeds out there for a new computer/laptop.
Ah! An ignoramus. How much are you willing to bet?
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud
If computers were these cars, as stated, wouldn't you want the one with more sales volume to increase your OS numbers as well? I think that is the real point here. The MBA is not going to increase the Leopard numbers. First of all, most people who will buy this are not PC people but people with other Macs so there will be very few switchers to come aboard with this product.
But it's still more money for Apple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
On the contrary if Apple hadn't messed up the AIR I could have seen it selling in numbers far exceeding the MacBook. The killer is it wouldn't have taken a lot to change people impressions of the machine. Better pricing and the proper port configurations would have done it.
What makes you think the pricing would be a lot better? Ultralights are more expensive than regular notebooks.
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Originally Posted by wizard69
Because it is critical to the units success. The wants and needs of the average user are in many ways universal.
No it's not. It's possible to be profitable in a niche.
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Originally Posted by wizard69
You also have to realize that people are actually getting something for the money they spend on a Lexus. Not so with the AIR as they are actually getting less.
But the cost/return is comparable. A car that costs twice as much isn't going to be twice the car. It'll be nicer, have a few gimmicky features, but in all, the diminishing returns takes hold.
That's great for you if you can afford it. But most people are on a budget and don't want to have to "upgrade the hard drive in a year or so." Also, you could definitely argue that would be a pain in the butt to have to hook up your iPod every time you want something.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I have maybe 40 gigs of music and photos on my main desktop computer. It all fits on my iPod Classic. Therefore to listen to music, I have no need to load all those files onto my Air at all. Maybe a year from now I'll spend $100 or 2 and get a bigger hard drive. In the meantime it's fine. If were a media professional of some type it would rule out the Air, but I'm not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by emoney35
Finally, someone that sees my point of view. And you are right, in its class it's very competitive. All I was trying to do was offer an alternative argument. Everyone has hyped the MBA like it's the best thing ever, which it is pretty sweet, but if you're in the market for a laptop there are definitely other options that may be just a good if not better.
That's not a fair characterization about how ANY of these discussions have gone. They all start with people asserting that the Air is so compromised and so expensive that only a complete moron would buy one. I've never seen anyone assert that it's a mass market replacement for the MacBook. I have never understood the vitriol directed at the Air. It's detractors (esp. the ones that assert it is a "strategic blunder" of epic proportions) act as if Steve announced that Apple will no longer sell MacBooks or MacBook Pros.
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Originally Posted by emoney35
Like a lot of people have said, it's a niche market. So unless you have a specific use for it, it's not worth the money. If you're an average user, you would be better suited to get a cheaper and faster Macbook that will last you longer in terms of speed/power before it becomes obsolete.
Except for that last bit about obsolescence, who disagrees with that? But the same thing could be said about every specialized product. If you don't want the wind blowing through your hair, don't by a convertable. If you don't want a camcorder that fits in your pocket, buy a bigger cheaper one. If you don't need a 8 cores and high-end networking and storage options, don't buy a MacPro.
Not really a surprise, the price does push the market base for this product outside the mass consumer market.
That's not a problem. Apple's been making money by being almost completely outside the mass consumer market. The average sell price for most computer makers is about half of Apple's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
They also need to address the rip off pricing of the SSD. There is no justification for that high price.
I don't think that's under Apple's control, that's the problem with the technology. Show me a cheaper 64GB SSD. I don't think you'll find one that's a lot cheaper.
This "too expensive" and "underpowered" ultraportable offers performance in the same class as some dual-G5 pro towers that people somehow manage to keep working with. (And not "just surfing.") It's certainly faster than most computers out there in the world that people are using every day for a whole range of things. It outruns many current Windows notebooks and especially ultraportables. It also has a bigger screen in a smaller volume unit--making it a BETTER ultraportable. (But with fewer ports, a poorer "desktop replacement.")
And with all that, it's still CHEAPER than many Windows ultraportables. And even cheaper than some high-end mainstream notebooks and desktops--the larger, more powerful ones. People do spend $1800 on a computer sometimes and still make rent. Some of them will find the Air to be a good choice--better than the ultraportables that have come before it.
Mac sales have taken off, notebook sales in general are a huge market, and therefore the mainstream MacBook is a BIG seller. If the Air, released for a smaller (but still important) ultraportable market is coming anywhere close to mainstream MacBook sales at any stores, that's surprising to me.
Now let's start criticizing the iPod Classic because it lacks a touch screen and is selling "poorly" compared to the mainstream Nano Be sure to note that the Classic costs SHOCKINGLY MORE than the Nano, and of course pretend that there's no justification for that. Because, like maximum portability in notebooks, maximum capacity in media players is not the top priority for most buyers. And products should not exist for any group except the majority
You think apple is ripping people off and marking this box way up. If that is the case, that means it's possible for someone else to build a comparable machine and charge far less for it (specifically less than $1099).
So find us a comparable machine for less than $1099.
You'll find slower machines. You'll find bigger and heavier machines. You'll find machines with tiny screens. You'll find machines with other disadvantages. But you won't find a machine that beats this one overall for much less (especially not for under $1099).
But go ahead and prove me wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevetim
I argue the point that adding the ports or harddrive space would increase weight in any significant manner.
Ports probably wouldn't add much weight but would likely require the machine to be thicker. A bigger HD would require going from a 1.8 version to the 2.5 - I don't see how that could not increase weight and likely size as well. An optical drive would also add size and weight.
I'm done with this discussion. Both sides just keep going in circles and can't or won't try to see the other valid points people are making.
Just be aware of what you are spending your money on. If you want an ultra light/portable/no included optical drive/smaller HD/somewhat slower laptop, buy a MBA.
If you want more speed/bigger HD/included optical drive, but yet still retain good portability...get a Macbook and save $400+.
I personally wouldn't buy a MBA until they lower the price a few hundred dollars. The premium for the portability is too high in my opinion.
And to address the topic of the article...I think "Duh" sums it up well. The MBA is not targeted towards the "general consumer", which means only the select few, or what we've been calling the "niche market", will pay the premium for the portability factor. So of course the demand will trail the original Intel-based Macbook, that should be a no-brainer.
Ports probably wouldn't add much weight but would likely require the machine to be thicker. A bigger HD would require going from a 1.8 version to the 2.5 - I don't see how that could not increase weight and likely size as well.
They could have gone with the 160GB 1.8" drive - that wouldn't have been as big of a size jump as going with a 2.5" drive.
I'm done with this discussion. Both sides just keep going in circles and can't or won't try to see the other valid points people are making.
Just be aware of what you are spending your money on. If you want an ultra light/portable/no included optical drive/smaller HD/somewhat slower laptop, buy a MBA.
If you want more speed/bigger HD/included optical drive, but yet still retain good portability...get a Macbook and save $400+.
I personally wouldn't buy a MBA until they lower the price a few hundred dollars. The premium for the portability is too high in my opinion.
Except that they are overkill for an average user and way more expensive. Why are you OK with charging more for a box not tailored to the average needs in those cases, but not with the MBA?
Overkill or not they provide the base requirements that users have.
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And yet the average pickup only seats two comfortably - it's a design that doesn't meet the average need, but they still sell plenty. The point is that companies make products that don't please everyone. And they make plenty of money on those products.
Ahh but you are still missing the point, those trucks still have the basic hardware that allows them to sell well to those that buy them. That is a base of features that modern transportation requires.
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It may be unusable for you, but that doesn't mean it's unusable for everyone. I have a laptop, and I never use the optical drive or ports beyond USB. You continue to speak of "everyone"...what qualifies you to be the spokesman for "everyone"?
Everyone as I see the market. Can I be considered qualified to judge the market well only time will tell there. The thing is that it is not like I'm unfamiliar with the industry and its history.
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I didn't say a size and weight reduction is "an exercise in new technology". I said it's an advantage to the user.
All I'm saying is that the numbers are good for nothing more than marketing. Most users simply won't care and walking into the store they are not going to see and size advantage at all.
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They are sacrificing some features, but they are gaining an advantage in size and weight. YOU don't value that advantage. But that doesn't mean that advantage doesn't exist, or that nobody else values it. Do you at least acknowledge that advantage?
Acknowledge that it is what physically bigger? I just don't see the advantage of leaving stuff out to reduce weight.
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And you need to realize that making a product smaller makes it more expensive.
No it doesn't. At least not in the electronics industry. The whole premise of the modern electronic IC is that smaller is cheaper is more capability.
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Miniaturization costs money, more than the amount saved by leaving off a couple ports.
In the context of the AIR I have to disagree with that. Everything I've seen, picture wise, indicates boards designed to be mass produced cheaply. The boards don't even look especially dense.
Quote:
If apple was screwing customers on the pricing for this, find me a comparable machine (this size and weight) in the MB price range. They don't exist.
Well if they don't exist it is pretty had to find a machine isn't it. Instead look at something like the ASUS Eee PC and the packaging density they achieved there. Not that I want to imagine an AIR with Eee PC performance just that there is nothing fancy happening with respect to the electronics in AIR.
In any event maybe iSupply will give us a break down on costs in the near future. From my perspective nothing in AIR should really be that expensive.
That is an interesting point. It is believable that if you can attract top executives with
a stylish, expensive portable laptop and get them hooked on Mac OS, they might be
inclined to direct their underlings to investigate Macs for the enterprise.
Not a chance in hell. The very upper levels of the executive staff may have some control but the so called underlings are very much at the mercy of the IT department.
Comments
Not really a surprise, the price does push the market base for this product outside the mass consumer market.
When I saw the Macbook Air at Macworld, my first thought was college students, women and other people who are very style oriented would love this laptop, but the price premium compared to the Macbook would force many to look at the Air and buy a Macbook. I am sure those same consumers buy the basic white macbook in greater numbers then pay the premium for the black macbook.
Hypothetically, as the product infrastructure takes off, I could see the Air product line expand with lower and higher price point and feature models. What we see currently as the AIR could replace the Macbook at the Macbook price point and a larger screen feature rich model for users demanding higher performance. The I-Phone has followed this theory to a point with lower memory models dropping in price as higher memory models come out at the original price point.
If the Macbook Air had a 20%-25% price premium over the base Macbook, I would probably buy one, As it is today, it cost an extra $101 for the base Macbook Pro compared to an Air with the external drive add on. The lightweight and design of the Air would be nice, but dollar for dollar, I would spend just over 5% more on a Macbook Pro.
True. But not only price pushed the market base ... features and performance did as well.
Furthermore, there are many seeming intangibles that one might imagine Apple will be looking for from the MBA. One, they want people coming through the door.
I won't argue that that is a possibility but let face it there are cheaper ways to do that.
Two, There are technical breakthroughs, like the processor, which will have use in other devices.
Not in the slightest. All the processor is is a special build/package for Apple. It isn't something that will be around long as Intel has mainstream solutions coming on in the very near future that would replace it.
There is the multi-touch track pad, too, and, in general, the efficient use of space is a breakthrough. Look for versions of these to find their way into other products this year.
This is what I don't get this allusion to the use of space or that there is some miracle in the PC boards in the AIR. They are run of the mill PC boards with a lot left out. I don't consider that an advancement at all. As far as the rest of the physical space I don't see that as being used all that well, simple design alterations could have solved most of the I/O problems on this machine.
DAve
Not really a surprise, the price does push the market base for this product outside the mass consumer market.
When I saw the Macbook Air at Macworld, my first thought was college students, women and other people who are very style oriented would love this laptop, but the price premium compared to the Macbook would force many to look at the Air and buy a Macbook. I am sure those same consumers buy the basic white macbook in greater numbers then pay the premium for the black macbook.
Hypothetically, as the product infrastructure takes off, I could see the Air product line expand with lower and higher price point and feature models. What we see currently as the AIR could replace the Macbook at the Macbook price point and a larger screen feature rich model for users demanding higher performance. The I-Phone has followed this theory to a point with lower memory models dropping in price as higher memory models come out at the original price point.
If the Macbook Air had a 20%-25% price premium over the base Macbook, I would probably buy one, As it is today, it cost an extra $101 for the base Macbook Pro compared to an Air with the external drive add on. The lightweight and design of the Air would be nice, but dollar for dollar, I would spend just over 5% more on a Macbook Pro.
Well said my friend. If the MBA was $1200 or $1300 it would appeal to the "average" user. As it stands now, they have priced it into the niche market.
My questions:
1.) Wouldn't new MacBooksPros especially a 12' version sell better?
2.) Didn't most people want a tablet at a lower cost instead of this since it's not very powerful?
3.) Are PC people really going to switch for this with all that it's lacking?
1) I don't know, and you don't either. And for all we know, apple has one of those in the works as well.
2) Again, I don't think either of us knows what most people want. And again, apple may release a tablet as well.
3) Yes, although we'll have to see to what degree. In some cases, it will also get PC users into apple stores to check it out, and they'll end up walking out with a MB or MBP.
Neiman Marcus does a billion in sales a quarter. Why is it a bad thing to go after some of those dollars (especially when they already have a model like the macbook)?
Of I course I believe it will sell and sell well- to MAC users. But that does not increase OS share.- unless you count with trickery like Sony does with it's products and double count for each computer used per household.
You really don't think they'll sell a meaningful amount to people getting it is their first mac? Overall, I think apple says 50% of macs bought at their stores are PC users. I think that number may be a bit lower, but even if 20-30% are to PC users, that's a modest increase in market share (and people who may consider a mac when they get around to replacing their desktop).
Not to mention PC users who come in to check out the air and walk out with a MB or MBP instead - while it's not a sale of the air, it's still an increase in marketshare because of it.
Very simple:
The computer is .25 inches thinner than a MB, weighs 2 lbs less, has a slower processor, 80 gig hard drive, slightly larger footprint, loses several basic features and costs 700 dollars more. Whats the niche? People who are willing to pay this premium obviously. Are there many? Probably not. This computer was a really stupid idea and is going to flop pretty badly because it doesn't make sense. Call me a troll for stating the facts I suppose.
The specs are facts.
The niche is people willing to pay, and people who value the reduction in size and weight, mainly people who travel heavily.
The idea that there are not many in that niche is your opinion (along with being stupid, flopping, and not making sense).
Both the Mac Pro and the MBP are equipped to satisfy the needs of the average user and then some.
Except that they are overkill for an average user and way more expensive. Why are you OK with charging more for a box not tailored to the average needs in those cases, but not with the MBA?
Hey now I drive a pickup! In any event my pickup still comes with the I/O to meet the needs of an average user. That is it has a heater, window defroster, nice seats, roll down windows.
And yet the average pickup only seats two comfortably - it's a design that doesn't meet the average need, but they still sell plenty. The point is that companies make products that don't please everyone. And they make plenty of money on those products.
The point in the computer world is that a device becomes very unusable once the real I/O drops below a certain point. There is a level of I/O that everyone needs and that isn't meet on the AIR.
It may be unusable for you, but that doesn't mean it's unusable for everyone. I have a laptop, and I never use the optical drive or ports beyond USB. You continue to speak of "everyone"...what qualifies you to be the spokesman for "everyone"?
I fail to see where that is a troll as that is exactly what the problem is they are getting far less for a lot more money. A size and weight reduction by the way that is not really an exercise in new technology. Sure they got a custom packaged processor from Intel but the mother boards are pretty run of the mill. Due to everything being left out they shouldn't be considered expensive or in any way premium technology over any other laptop.
I didn't say a size and weight reduction is "an exercise in new technology". I said it's an advantage to the user.
They are sacrificing some features, but they are gaining an advantage in size and weight. YOU don't value that advantage. But that doesn't mean that advantage doesn't exist, or that nobody else values it. Do you at least acknowledge that advantage?
And you need to realize that making a product smaller makes it more expensive. Miniaturization costs money, more than the amount saved by leaving off a couple ports. If apple was screwing customers on the pricing for this, find me a comparable machine (this size and weight) in the MB price range. They don't exist.
I won't argue that that is a possibility but let face it there are cheaper ways to do that.
Not in the slightest. All the processor is is a special build/package for Apple. It isn't something that will be around long as Intel has mainstream solutions coming on in the very near future that would replace it.
This is what I don't get this allusion to the use of space or that there is some miracle in the PC boards in the AIR. They are run of the mill PC boards with a lot left out. I don't consider that an advancement at all. As far as the rest of the physical space I don't see that as being used all that well, simple design alterations could have solved most of the I/O problems on this machine.
DAve
While Apple is certainly the first usage of this Merom on a 22x22mm chip Intel did announce it's plans for reducing the chip down from 35x35mm to the MBA chip size many months before the MBA was announced.
There is also evidence that others OEMs will have access to this chip, too. I wonder if Apple is getting anything from Intel for it's position here. Id est, it almost seems as if Apple built the MBA around the processor to help sell a new chip for Intel. If so, then is Apple getting any kick back from any new OEMs jumping on board or getting more exclusivity to new chips.
1) I don't know, and you don't either. Etc., Etc., Etc. And all the rest of your post...
Very well stated: concise, well-thought-out.
Amen.
What surprises me is the defense is virtually everyone admits that this is a niche machine ... And if you say only the rich will buy it you are all of a sudden a "richaphobe" or a troll.
I'm flatly saying that even the rich won't buy this machine. Contrary to popular opinion they do have a little bit of gray mater between their ears and can see the AIR for what it is. Sure Apple might be successful in selling to Paris Hilton but even she would have problems as there is no Firewire to plug in her video camera.
Apple made bad design decisions on this that cost them sales and . The analysts here have proved it with the sales numbers which will not get better I assure you. Early adopter wonderlust will go away soon.
Yep I give the machine 3 months for sales to tank.
Could they have made it a little smaller in footprint to make it more appealing: Yes, look at all the blank space around the screen!
Well they could of but I don't really believe this is how we turn AIR into a hot selling product.
Could they have put a faster processor in: Yes, but admittedly difficult.
I really don't see the processor as an issue. Sure many have been conditioned that faster is always better but there are so many other short comings that processor speed means nothing on this device.
Could they have had more that 80 gigs: Yes, Definitely yes.
They also need to address the rip off pricing of the SSD. There is no justification for that high price.
Could they have put more ports on it to broaden appeal: Yes, Definitely yes.
Not to broaden appeal but to eliminate that mass revulsion at the lack of ports.
Could they have sold it a cheaper price: Yes
Much cheaper like less than a MacBook.
Could they have put a replaceable battery in: Yes Sony did... at same weight as apple.
The battery is an interesting issue. For many a replaceable battery is a better choice, but I could see the day when that won't be permitted. Mostly due to environmental issues and forced recycling.
Apple = Innovative (usually ... but not this time).
I'm not sure we could call AIR a lack in innovation it is more like a lack of understanding the customer. Lets face it there are good things in AIR, but the sum of the parts don't end up being $1700.
Dave
Well said my friend. If the MBA was $1200 or $1300 it would appeal to the "average" user. As it stands now, they have priced it into the niche market.
Let me make sure I'm understanding the criticisms correctly.
1 Apple should have priced the air lower (price it like the macbook...also meaning it couldn't have the same degree of miniaturization, so it would be bigger and heavier...like the macbook)
2 Apple should have added more features (making it larger/heavier...like the macbook)
So it boils down to overall it should be more like the macbook. But why bother making a new model in that case?
I guess people want apple to take the macbook and shrink the size and weight...but without cutting features, and without raising the price.
If it really was possible to get all the MB features into a much thinner and lighter box for the same price, wouldn't some company be doing just that (and selling a ton?).
I completely agree. If they want to sell more they need to drop the price. $1799 is way too much for 1.6 GHz @ 4200rpm. And shoot, only 80GB hard drive?? An iPod has twice that. Sure it has the portability/coolness factor but that surely isn't worth the extra dough. Considering the intro Macbook is essentially faster and starts at $1099, on speed alone the Air should be down around $900. To have a premium of $900 for the thinness factor is ridiculous.
Your statements are ridiculous too. A compact size has a higher cost.
I don't know for sure, but I'd be willing to bet that 1.6 GHz is one of the slower processor speeds out there for a new computer/laptop.
Ah! An ignoramus. How much are you willing to bet?
If computers were these cars, as stated, wouldn't you want the one with more sales volume to increase your OS numbers as well? I think that is the real point here. The MBA is not going to increase the Leopard numbers. First of all, most people who will buy this are not PC people but people with other Macs so there will be very few switchers to come aboard with this product.
But it's still more money for Apple.
On the contrary if Apple hadn't messed up the AIR I could have seen it selling in numbers far exceeding the MacBook. The killer is it wouldn't have taken a lot to change people impressions of the machine. Better pricing and the proper port configurations would have done it.
What makes you think the pricing would be a lot better? Ultralights are more expensive than regular notebooks.
Because it is critical to the units success. The wants and needs of the average user are in many ways universal.
No it's not. It's possible to be profitable in a niche.
You also have to realize that people are actually getting something for the money they spend on a Lexus. Not so with the AIR as they are actually getting less.
But the cost/return is comparable. A car that costs twice as much isn't going to be twice the car. It'll be nicer, have a few gimmicky features, but in all, the diminishing returns takes hold.
That's great for you if you can afford it. But most people are on a budget and don't want to have to "upgrade the hard drive in a year or so." Also, you could definitely argue that would be a pain in the butt to have to hook up your iPod every time you want something.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I have maybe 40 gigs of music and photos on my main desktop computer. It all fits on my iPod Classic. Therefore to listen to music, I have no need to load all those files onto my Air at all. Maybe a year from now I'll spend $100 or 2 and get a bigger hard drive. In the meantime it's fine. If were a media professional of some type it would rule out the Air, but I'm not.
Finally, someone that sees my point of view. And you are right, in its class it's very competitive. All I was trying to do was offer an alternative argument. Everyone has hyped the MBA like it's the best thing ever, which it is pretty sweet, but if you're in the market for a laptop there are definitely other options that may be just a good if not better.
That's not a fair characterization about how ANY of these discussions have gone. They all start with people asserting that the Air is so compromised and so expensive that only a complete moron would buy one. I've never seen anyone assert that it's a mass market replacement for the MacBook. I have never understood the vitriol directed at the Air. It's detractors (esp. the ones that assert it is a "strategic blunder" of epic proportions) act as if Steve announced that Apple will no longer sell MacBooks or MacBook Pros.
Like a lot of people have said, it's a niche market. So unless you have a specific use for it, it's not worth the money. If you're an average user, you would be better suited to get a cheaper and faster Macbook that will last you longer in terms of speed/power before it becomes obsolete.
Except for that last bit about obsolescence, who disagrees with that? But the same thing could be said about every specialized product. If you don't want the wind blowing through your hair, don't by a convertable. If you don't want a camcorder that fits in your pocket, buy a bigger cheaper one. If you don't need a 8 cores and high-end networking and storage options, don't buy a MacPro.
Let me make sure I'm understanding the criticisms correctly.
2 Apple should have added more features (making it larger/heavier...like the macbook)
I argue the point that adding the ports or harddrive space would increase weight in any significant manner.
Not really a surprise, the price does push the market base for this product outside the mass consumer market.
That's not a problem. Apple's been making money by being almost completely outside the mass consumer market. The average sell price for most computer makers is about half of Apple's.
They also need to address the rip off pricing of the SSD. There is no justification for that high price.
I don't think that's under Apple's control, that's the problem with the technology. Show me a cheaper 64GB SSD. I don't think you'll find one that's a lot cheaper.
And with all that, it's still CHEAPER than many Windows ultraportables. And even cheaper than some high-end mainstream notebooks and desktops--the larger, more powerful ones. People do spend $1800 on a computer sometimes and still make rent. Some of them will find the Air to be a good choice--better than the ultraportables that have come before it.
Mac sales have taken off, notebook sales in general are a huge market, and therefore the mainstream MacBook is a BIG seller. If the Air, released for a smaller (but still important) ultraportable market is coming anywhere close to mainstream MacBook sales at any stores, that's surprising to me.
Now let's start criticizing the iPod Classic because it lacks a touch screen and is selling "poorly" compared to the mainstream Nano
Much cheaper like less than a MacBook.
To focus on this one point...
You think apple is ripping people off and marking this box way up. If that is the case, that means it's possible for someone else to build a comparable machine and charge far less for it (specifically less than $1099).
So find us a comparable machine for less than $1099.
You'll find slower machines. You'll find bigger and heavier machines. You'll find machines with tiny screens. You'll find machines with other disadvantages. But you won't find a machine that beats this one overall for much less (especially not for under $1099).
But go ahead and prove me wrong.
I argue the point that adding the ports or harddrive space would increase weight in any significant manner.
Ports probably wouldn't add much weight but would likely require the machine to be thicker. A bigger HD would require going from a 1.8 version to the 2.5 - I don't see how that could not increase weight and likely size as well. An optical drive would also add size and weight.
Just be aware of what you are spending your money on. If you want an ultra light/portable/no included optical drive/smaller HD/somewhat slower laptop, buy a MBA.
If you want more speed/bigger HD/included optical drive, but yet still retain good portability...get a Macbook and save $400+.
I personally wouldn't buy a MBA until they lower the price a few hundred dollars. The premium for the portability is too high in my opinion.
And to address the topic of the article...I think "Duh" sums it up well. The MBA is not targeted towards the "general consumer", which means only the select few, or what we've been calling the "niche market", will pay the premium for the portability factor. So of course the demand will trail the original Intel-based Macbook, that should be a no-brainer.
Ports probably wouldn't add much weight but would likely require the machine to be thicker. A bigger HD would require going from a 1.8 version to the 2.5 - I don't see how that could not increase weight and likely size as well.
They could have gone with the 160GB 1.8" drive - that wouldn't have been as big of a size jump as going with a 2.5" drive.
I'm done with this discussion. Both sides just keep going in circles and can't or won't try to see the other valid points people are making.
Just be aware of what you are spending your money on. If you want an ultra light/portable/no included optical drive/smaller HD/somewhat slower laptop, buy a MBA.
If you want more speed/bigger HD/included optical drive, but yet still retain good portability...get a Macbook and save $400+.
I personally wouldn't buy a MBA until they lower the price a few hundred dollars. The premium for the portability is too high in my opinion.
I bought two as gifts. Not a problem.
Except that they are overkill for an average user and way more expensive. Why are you OK with charging more for a box not tailored to the average needs in those cases, but not with the MBA?
Overkill or not they provide the base requirements that users have.
And yet the average pickup only seats two comfortably - it's a design that doesn't meet the average need, but they still sell plenty. The point is that companies make products that don't please everyone. And they make plenty of money on those products.
Ahh but you are still missing the point, those trucks still have the basic hardware that allows them to sell well to those that buy them. That is a base of features that modern transportation requires.
It may be unusable for you, but that doesn't mean it's unusable for everyone. I have a laptop, and I never use the optical drive or ports beyond USB. You continue to speak of "everyone"...what qualifies you to be the spokesman for "everyone"?
Everyone as I see the market. Can I be considered qualified to judge the market well only time will tell there. The thing is that it is not like I'm unfamiliar with the industry and its history.
I didn't say a size and weight reduction is "an exercise in new technology". I said it's an advantage to the user.
All I'm saying is that the numbers are good for nothing more than marketing. Most users simply won't care and walking into the store they are not going to see and size advantage at all.
They are sacrificing some features, but they are gaining an advantage in size and weight. YOU don't value that advantage. But that doesn't mean that advantage doesn't exist, or that nobody else values it. Do you at least acknowledge that advantage?
Acknowledge that it is what physically bigger? I just don't see the advantage of leaving stuff out to reduce weight.
And you need to realize that making a product smaller makes it more expensive.
No it doesn't. At least not in the electronics industry. The whole premise of the modern electronic IC is that smaller is cheaper is more capability.
Miniaturization costs money, more than the amount saved by leaving off a couple ports.
In the context of the AIR I have to disagree with that. Everything I've seen, picture wise, indicates boards designed to be mass produced cheaply. The boards don't even look especially dense.
If apple was screwing customers on the pricing for this, find me a comparable machine (this size and weight) in the MB price range. They don't exist.
Well if they don't exist it is pretty had to find a machine isn't it. Instead look at something like the ASUS Eee PC and the packaging density they achieved there. Not that I want to imagine an AIR with Eee PC performance just that there is nothing fancy happening with respect to the electronics in AIR.
In any event maybe iSupply will give us a break down on costs in the near future. From my perspective nothing in AIR should really be that expensive.
Dave
That is an interesting point. It is believable that if you can attract top executives with
a stylish, expensive portable laptop and get them hooked on Mac OS, they might be
inclined to direct their underlings to investigate Macs for the enterprise.
Not a chance in hell. The very upper levels of the executive staff may have some control but the so called underlings are very much at the mercy of the IT department.
dave