I didn't read anything here that supports what you said. Apple was the first to build the trackpad into their machines. Until then, you could buy them as accessories.
Try reading before replying - I said scrolling trackpad, not trackpad.
Quote:
Apple never claimed that their mouse was the first with laser tracking.
They did here. In fact they often boast about 'new' things as if they hadn't been used by PCs for quite a while first.
[quote]I also think that the rules about advertising in England, and a few other places is terrible. It seems as though the government doesn't believe the consumer is intelligent enough to separate the truth from the hype. Advertising is designed to move a product over another. If one product has something that the other doesn't, even if it's nebulous, and consists of a feeling, a company should be allowed to say it. I don't like the idea of being "protected".[quote] Talking nonsense here. The only real laws are that the ads should be legal, decent, honest and truthful. otherwise do what you want. Besides, how is the average consumer going to know when an advertiser is telling complete lies as Apple did with the Aluminiun G4 ad with Jeff Goldblum. Fastest PC in the world, except it wasn't. Ad was withdrawn.
Quote:
It's also why Apple's OS is considered, even by those in the PC industry as being the best OS available, because Apple made the hard choices.
Shame about the clumsy interface then. Actually opinion is not as clear cut as you make out. I use both. Macs are better in some ways, PCs in others, both are annoying and using both is the worst of all worlds as when you are on one platform you miss the better aspects of the other.
Don't slag apple's legacy abilty, right now i'm typing from a G5 PowerMac with Panther. Works just like the day I got it and I still get updates.
Also: so far your comparisons are advertising, a mouse, cars and updates.. really nothing that makes me want to run out and buy a dell.
A couple of years ago collegue on a film was worrying about her 0S9 Mac dying as lots of software was now no longer supported by OSX and she could not afford to replace all.
I'm not against progress, but you need very deep pockets to be able to afford new versions of everything all the time. Apple kit is expensive, therefore tends to have a much richer client base than Windows. So Apple can move forward much more easily than Windows. They also make the kit too, yet in spite of all these advantages, OSX isn't really as far ahead as it should be.
Try reading before replying - I said scrolling trackpad, not trackpad.
What computer system incorporated a SCROLLING trackpad into the case before Apple? I don't remember any. Or any trackpad.
Quote:
They did here. In fact they often boast about 'new' things as if they hadn't been used by PCs for quite a while first.
Often Apple will incorporate something into its line as a standard feature that other computer manufacturers only offer as an add-on. So, technically, Apple may not be first, but in reality, they are.
Quote:
I also think that the rules about advertising in England, and a few other places is terrible. It seems as though the government doesn't believe the consumer is intelligent enough to separate the truth from the hype. Advertising is designed to move a product over another. If one product has something that the other doesn't, even if it's nebulous, and consists of a feeling, a company should be allowed to say it. I don't like the idea of being "protected".
Fixed the quoting
Quote:
Talking nonsense here. The only real laws are that the ads should be legal, decent, honest and truthful. otherwise do what you want. Besides, how is the average consumer going to know when an advertiser is telling complete lies as Apple did with the Aluminiun G4 ad with Jeff Goldblum. Fastest PC in the world, except it wasn't. Ad was withdrawn.
No. England, and some European countries don't allow direct comparison ads. They also DON'T allow ads that claim that one product is better than another.
Apple has had problems with those "faster" ads because even though the Mac was faster when it first came out, shortly afterwards, they were no linger faster, but the ads continued to run.
Quote:
Shame about the clumsy interface then. Actually opinion is not as clear cut as you make out. I use both. Macs are better in some ways, PCs in others, both are annoying and using both is the worst of all worlds as when you are on one platform you miss the better aspects of the other.
Neither is anywhere near perfect.
We can disagree here as well. The Mac interface is considered to be much better than any other major OS around. If your coming from a PC, and don't want to bother learning the differences, it will appear to be clumsy.
What computer system incorporated a SCROLLING trackpad into the case before Apple? I don't remember any. Or any trackpad.
The fact you never used one, does not mean they didn't exist. I used laptops back around 2000 that had scrolling trackpads. I think the first time in late 90s it was a Dell that my girlfriend used at work. It was normal on PCs before Apple invented a way that different enough for them to claim to have 'invented' it again. Though PC laptops only need one finger to scroll, not two, so you'll probably claim they don't count, even though you can scroll vertically and horizontally.
I always found Mac laptops clumsier to use as a result of no right click button and no scrolling. Thank God Apple finally caved in on those and became more PC like, even if the alt click is still very clumsy compared to that on a PC.
Quote:
Often Apple will incorporate something into its line as a standard feature that other computer manufacturers only offer as an add-on. So, technically, Apple may not be first, but in reality, they are.
Really grasping at straws here now aren't we? And if you want to go down that frankly very, very pathetic route. Apple don't yet do wireless as that's only an add on for more money. When I bought my Mac Pro I wasn't able to buy one with wireless mouse, unless I bought for a separate mouse in addition to the crappy wired one included [for an extra $80] or alternatively waited another 4-5 days and paid an extra $30. Either way, by your daft defintion, Apple don't yet do wireless keyboard/mice as they are only available as an add-on. The fact they still use wired is crappy anyway. Not had to use wired periperals for many years and quickly remembered why, after using the irritating Mac periperals.
Quote:
No. England, and some European countries don't allow direct comparison ads. They also DON'T allow ads that claim that one product is better than another.
Apple has had problems with those "faster" ads because even though the Mac was faster when it first came out, shortly afterwards, they were no linger faster, but the ads continued to run.
Funny as I've seen loads of those ads that supposedly aren't allowed. The Apple certainly wasn't even the fastest when it first came out, even when tested against AMD dual chip machines, that had already been out for 6 montths. But Apple always ignored inconvenient little things like facts, just like you seem to and when AMD were kicking Intel in performance, Apple slyly compared their machines against Intel machines.
More ignorance ramblings on your part as the ASA covers the UK, of which England happens to be just one part. BTW Do you simply make stuff up to try and win debates?
Quote:
We can disagree here as well. The Mac interface is considered to be much better than any other major OS around. If your coming from a PC, and don't want to bother learning the differences, it will appear to be clumsy.
No the Mac interface is usually considered better by ignorant Macolytes and sorry to burst your bubble, but in some ways Windows is much better, just as other ways the Mac OS is much better. It would be really nice to be able to combine the best of both worlds. BTW I know how to use a Mac and know the the differences and still find some of them annoying. I know more about the Mac OS and how it works, than friends of mine who have never used a PC. I hate watching people use Macs as they are so inefficient, constantly dragging programmes around to get access to other windows. If the OS was that wonderful and easy, how come most people don't know how to use it? Not saying people use all of Windows fully either, but it kind of undermines the Mac claim to be sooo easy, when people so obviously don't know the basics.
The main difference I find between a Mac and the PC, is that I have to use the mouse a lot more [even though I know plenty of Mac keyboard shortcuts] and I have to use more fingers/hands to do the same tasks when using a Mac as compared to a PC. Especially if you want to do something as simple as a right click on a laptop. And the context click not being on by default, duh!
Plus the Mac interface is friggin' awful when using dual monitors as the programme and menu bar are completely disassociated for any programme running on the second monitor, which undermines the major usefullness of the dual monitor setup.
No the Mac interface is usually considered better by usability experts and sorry to burst your bubble, but in some ways Windows is much better, just as other ways the Mac OS is much better.
Fixed for you. Yes there are some areas that Windows is better but overall OS X is still considered better even if it isn't quite as consistent as before.
Quote:
Plus the Mac interface is friggin' awful when using dual monitors as the programme and menu bar are completely disassociated for any programme running on the second monitor, which undermines the major usefullness of the dual monitor setup.
Yes, this is an issue in dual-monitor setup. It is somewhat mitigated using a single, larger screen with the same real-estate. Distance to travel becomes something of an issue though as Fitts Law fails somewhat when the target is so far away although even on a 30" ACD I can hit the corner in one swipe from most usable parts of the screen.
The fact you never used one, does not mean they didn't exist. I used laptops back around 2000 that had scrolling trackpads. I think the first time in late 90s it was a Dell that my girlfriend used at work. It was normal on PCs before Apple invented a way that different enough for them to claim to have 'invented' it again. Though PC laptops only need one finger to scroll, not two, so you'll probably claim they don't count, even though you can scroll vertically and horizontally.
It was a simple question. WHICH laptops used this? I've never seen one, and looking for them is difficult, but as you say you used several, you should be able to tell which ones they were. I can't say whether I believe you or not until you provide the information which I'm sure you have. That would end this discussion rather quickly, wouldn't you say?
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I always found Mac laptops clumsier to use as a result of no right click button and no scrolling. Thank God Apple finally caved in on those and became more PC like, even if the alt click is still very clumsy compared to that on a PC.
That's a matter of taste. I wouldn't feel qualified to comment on what other people prefer.
Quote:
Really grasping at straws here now aren't we? And if you want to go down that frankly very, very pathetic route. Apple don't yet do wireless as that's only an add on for more money. When I bought my Mac Pro I wasn't able to buy one with wireless mouse, unless I bought for a separate mouse in addition to the crappy wired one included [for an extra $80] or alternatively waited another 4-5 days and paid an extra $30. Either way, by your daft defintion, Apple don't yet do wireless keyboard/mice as they are only available as an add-on. The fact they still use wired is crappy anyway. Not had to use wired periperals for many years and quickly remembered why, after using the irritating Mac periperals.
No, not at all. I've seen, over the years, some companies offer, as an add-on, a feature that wasn't to become popular until Apple offered it as a standard item on their own models.
3.5" floppies for rxample were both used by Apple and Hp, but only Apple used them on their main line of computers, while Hp used them first on their $75,000 (and up!) workstations, and only after Apple used them, put then on their standard computer line, first as options.
The same thing with CDs. Apple was decried for putting them into their computers as a standard item, first on the towers, then on the consumer models. It was thought to be too extravagant. But, later it was admitted that putting Cd's into their machines as standard, which PC makers followed a year later, was responsible for making computers much more popular with the consumer, where at the time, most computers were bought by industry and government.
Having Cd's as standard allowed large programs and particularly games, to be more cheaply manufactured, and far easier to install, as well as allowing them to be run more quickly.
Quote:
Funny as I've seen loads of those ads that supposedly aren't allowed. The Apple certainly wasn't even the fastest when it first came out, even when tested against AMD dual chip machines, that had already been out for 6 montths. But Apple always ignored inconvenient little things like facts, just like you seem to and when AMD were kicking Intel in performance, Apple slyly compared their machines against Intel machines.
Make more statements without showing evidence.
Quote:
More ignorance ramblings on your part as the ASA covers the UK, of which England happens to be just one part. BTW Do you simply make stuff up to try and win debates?
I agree that your ramblings are ignorant. Please try to change that.
Quote:
No the Mac interface is usually considered better by ignorant Macolytes and sorry to burst your bubble, but in some ways Windows is much better, just as other ways the Mac OS is much better. It would be really nice to be able to combine the best of both worlds. BTW I know how to use a Mac and know the the differences and still find some of them annoying. I know more about the Mac OS and how it works, than friends of mine who have never used a PC. I hate watching people use Macs as they are so inefficient, constantly dragging programmes around to get access to other windows. If the OS was that wonderful and easy, how come most people don't know how to use it? Not saying people use all of Windows fully either, but it kind of undermines the Mac claim to be sooo easy, when people so obviously don't know the basics.
The main difference I find between a Mac and the PC, is that I have to use the mouse a lot more [even though I know plenty of Mac keyboard shortcuts] and I have to use more fingers/hands to do the same tasks when using a Mac as compared to a PC. Especially if you want to do something as simple as a right click on a laptop. And the context click not being on by default, duh!
Plus the Mac interface is friggin' awful when using dual monitors as the programme and menu bar are completely disassociated for any programme running on the second monitor, which undermines the major usefullness of the dual monitor setup.
It seems as though most reviews in PC publications disagree with your statements. You may feel otherwise, and good for you.
Comments
I didn't read anything here that supports what you said. Apple was the first to build the trackpad into their machines. Until then, you could buy them as accessories.
Try reading before replying - I said scrolling trackpad, not trackpad.
Apple never claimed that their mouse was the first with laser tracking.
They did here. In fact they often boast about 'new' things as if they hadn't been used by PCs for quite a while first.
[quote]I also think that the rules about advertising in England, and a few other places is terrible. It seems as though the government doesn't believe the consumer is intelligent enough to separate the truth from the hype. Advertising is designed to move a product over another. If one product has something that the other doesn't, even if it's nebulous, and consists of a feeling, a company should be allowed to say it. I don't like the idea of being "protected".[quote] Talking nonsense here. The only real laws are that the ads should be legal, decent, honest and truthful. otherwise do what you want. Besides, how is the average consumer going to know when an advertiser is telling complete lies as Apple did with the Aluminiun G4 ad with Jeff Goldblum. Fastest PC in the world, except it wasn't. Ad was withdrawn.
It's also why Apple's OS is considered, even by those in the PC industry as being the best OS available, because Apple made the hard choices.
Shame about the clumsy interface then. Actually opinion is not as clear cut as you make out. I use both. Macs are better in some ways, PCs in others, both are annoying and using both is the worst of all worlds as when you are on one platform you miss the better aspects of the other.
Neither is anywhere near perfect.
Don't slag apple's legacy abilty, right now i'm typing from a G5 PowerMac with Panther. Works just like the day I got it and I still get updates.
Also: so far your comparisons are advertising, a mouse, cars and updates.. really nothing that makes me want to run out and buy a dell.
A couple of years ago collegue on a film was worrying about her 0S9 Mac dying as lots of software was now no longer supported by OSX and she could not afford to replace all.
I'm not against progress, but you need very deep pockets to be able to afford new versions of everything all the time. Apple kit is expensive, therefore tends to have a much richer client base than Windows. So Apple can move forward much more easily than Windows. They also make the kit too, yet in spite of all these advantages, OSX isn't really as far ahead as it should be.
Try reading before replying - I said scrolling trackpad, not trackpad.
What computer system incorporated a SCROLLING trackpad into the case before Apple? I don't remember any. Or any trackpad.
They did here. In fact they often boast about 'new' things as if they hadn't been used by PCs for quite a while first.
Often Apple will incorporate something into its line as a standard feature that other computer manufacturers only offer as an add-on. So, technically, Apple may not be first, but in reality, they are.
I also think that the rules about advertising in England, and a few other places is terrible. It seems as though the government doesn't believe the consumer is intelligent enough to separate the truth from the hype. Advertising is designed to move a product over another. If one product has something that the other doesn't, even if it's nebulous, and consists of a feeling, a company should be allowed to say it. I don't like the idea of being "protected".
Fixed the quoting
Talking nonsense here. The only real laws are that the ads should be legal, decent, honest and truthful. otherwise do what you want. Besides, how is the average consumer going to know when an advertiser is telling complete lies as Apple did with the Aluminiun G4 ad with Jeff Goldblum. Fastest PC in the world, except it wasn't. Ad was withdrawn.
No. England, and some European countries don't allow direct comparison ads. They also DON'T allow ads that claim that one product is better than another.
Apple has had problems with those "faster" ads because even though the Mac was faster when it first came out, shortly afterwards, they were no linger faster, but the ads continued to run.
Shame about the clumsy interface then. Actually opinion is not as clear cut as you make out. I use both. Macs are better in some ways, PCs in others, both are annoying and using both is the worst of all worlds as when you are on one platform you miss the better aspects of the other.
Neither is anywhere near perfect.
We can disagree here as well. The Mac interface is considered to be much better than any other major OS around. If your coming from a PC, and don't want to bother learning the differences, it will appear to be clumsy.
What computer system incorporated a SCROLLING trackpad into the case before Apple? I don't remember any. Or any trackpad.
The fact you never used one, does not mean they didn't exist. I used laptops back around 2000 that had scrolling trackpads. I think the first time in late 90s it was a Dell that my girlfriend used at work. It was normal on PCs before Apple invented a way that different enough for them to claim to have 'invented' it again. Though PC laptops only need one finger to scroll, not two, so you'll probably claim they don't count, even though you can scroll vertically and horizontally.
I always found Mac laptops clumsier to use as a result of no right click button and no scrolling. Thank God Apple finally caved in on those and became more PC like, even if the alt click is still very clumsy compared to that on a PC.
Often Apple will incorporate something into its line as a standard feature that other computer manufacturers only offer as an add-on. So, technically, Apple may not be first, but in reality, they are.
Really grasping at straws here now aren't we? And if you want to go down that frankly very, very pathetic route. Apple don't yet do wireless as that's only an add on for more money. When I bought my Mac Pro I wasn't able to buy one with wireless mouse, unless I bought for a separate mouse in addition to the crappy wired one included [for an extra $80] or alternatively waited another 4-5 days and paid an extra $30. Either way, by your daft defintion, Apple don't yet do wireless keyboard/mice as they are only available as an add-on. The fact they still use wired is crappy anyway. Not had to use wired periperals for many years and quickly remembered why, after using the irritating Mac periperals.
No. England, and some European countries don't allow direct comparison ads. They also DON'T allow ads that claim that one product is better than another.
Apple has had problems with those "faster" ads because even though the Mac was faster when it first came out, shortly afterwards, they were no linger faster, but the ads continued to run.
Funny as I've seen loads of those ads that supposedly aren't allowed. The Apple certainly wasn't even the fastest when it first came out, even when tested against AMD dual chip machines, that had already been out for 6 montths. But Apple always ignored inconvenient little things like facts, just like you seem to and when AMD were kicking Intel in performance, Apple slyly compared their machines against Intel machines.
More ignorance ramblings on your part as the ASA covers the UK, of which England happens to be just one part. BTW Do you simply make stuff up to try and win debates?
We can disagree here as well. The Mac interface is considered to be much better than any other major OS around. If your coming from a PC, and don't want to bother learning the differences, it will appear to be clumsy.
No the Mac interface is usually considered better by ignorant Macolytes and sorry to burst your bubble, but in some ways Windows is much better, just as other ways the Mac OS is much better. It would be really nice to be able to combine the best of both worlds. BTW I know how to use a Mac and know the the differences and still find some of them annoying. I know more about the Mac OS and how it works, than friends of mine who have never used a PC. I hate watching people use Macs as they are so inefficient, constantly dragging programmes around to get access to other windows. If the OS was that wonderful and easy, how come most people don't know how to use it? Not saying people use all of Windows fully either, but it kind of undermines the Mac claim to be sooo easy, when people so obviously don't know the basics.
The main difference I find between a Mac and the PC, is that I have to use the mouse a lot more [even though I know plenty of Mac keyboard shortcuts] and I have to use more fingers/hands to do the same tasks when using a Mac as compared to a PC. Especially if you want to do something as simple as a right click on a laptop. And the context click not being on by default, duh!
Plus the Mac interface is friggin' awful when using dual monitors as the programme and menu bar are completely disassociated for any programme running on the second monitor, which undermines the major usefullness of the dual monitor setup.
No the Mac interface is usually considered better by usability experts and sorry to burst your bubble, but in some ways Windows is much better, just as other ways the Mac OS is much better.
Fixed for you. Yes there are some areas that Windows is better but overall OS X is still considered better even if it isn't quite as consistent as before.
Plus the Mac interface is friggin' awful when using dual monitors as the programme and menu bar are completely disassociated for any programme running on the second monitor, which undermines the major usefullness of the dual monitor setup.
Yes, this is an issue in dual-monitor setup. It is somewhat mitigated using a single, larger screen with the same real-estate. Distance to travel becomes something of an issue though as Fitts Law fails somewhat when the target is so far away although even on a 30" ACD I can hit the corner in one swipe from most usable parts of the screen.
The fact you never used one, does not mean they didn't exist. I used laptops back around 2000 that had scrolling trackpads. I think the first time in late 90s it was a Dell that my girlfriend used at work. It was normal on PCs before Apple invented a way that different enough for them to claim to have 'invented' it again. Though PC laptops only need one finger to scroll, not two, so you'll probably claim they don't count, even though you can scroll vertically and horizontally.
It was a simple question. WHICH laptops used this? I've never seen one, and looking for them is difficult, but as you say you used several, you should be able to tell which ones they were. I can't say whether I believe you or not until you provide the information which I'm sure you have. That would end this discussion rather quickly, wouldn't you say?
I always found Mac laptops clumsier to use as a result of no right click button and no scrolling. Thank God Apple finally caved in on those and became more PC like, even if the alt click is still very clumsy compared to that on a PC.
That's a matter of taste. I wouldn't feel qualified to comment on what other people prefer.
Really grasping at straws here now aren't we? And if you want to go down that frankly very, very pathetic route. Apple don't yet do wireless as that's only an add on for more money. When I bought my Mac Pro I wasn't able to buy one with wireless mouse, unless I bought for a separate mouse in addition to the crappy wired one included [for an extra $80] or alternatively waited another 4-5 days and paid an extra $30. Either way, by your daft defintion, Apple don't yet do wireless keyboard/mice as they are only available as an add-on. The fact they still use wired is crappy anyway. Not had to use wired periperals for many years and quickly remembered why, after using the irritating Mac periperals.
No, not at all. I've seen, over the years, some companies offer, as an add-on, a feature that wasn't to become popular until Apple offered it as a standard item on their own models.
3.5" floppies for rxample were both used by Apple and Hp, but only Apple used them on their main line of computers, while Hp used them first on their $75,000 (and up!) workstations, and only after Apple used them, put then on their standard computer line, first as options.
The same thing with CDs. Apple was decried for putting them into their computers as a standard item, first on the towers, then on the consumer models. It was thought to be too extravagant. But, later it was admitted that putting Cd's into their machines as standard, which PC makers followed a year later, was responsible for making computers much more popular with the consumer, where at the time, most computers were bought by industry and government.
Having Cd's as standard allowed large programs and particularly games, to be more cheaply manufactured, and far easier to install, as well as allowing them to be run more quickly.
Funny as I've seen loads of those ads that supposedly aren't allowed. The Apple certainly wasn't even the fastest when it first came out, even when tested against AMD dual chip machines, that had already been out for 6 montths. But Apple always ignored inconvenient little things like facts, just like you seem to and when AMD were kicking Intel in performance, Apple slyly compared their machines against Intel machines.
Make more statements without showing evidence.
More ignorance ramblings on your part as the ASA covers the UK, of which England happens to be just one part. BTW Do you simply make stuff up to try and win debates?
I agree that your ramblings are ignorant. Please try to change that.
No the Mac interface is usually considered better by ignorant Macolytes and sorry to burst your bubble, but in some ways Windows is much better, just as other ways the Mac OS is much better. It would be really nice to be able to combine the best of both worlds. BTW I know how to use a Mac and know the the differences and still find some of them annoying. I know more about the Mac OS and how it works, than friends of mine who have never used a PC. I hate watching people use Macs as they are so inefficient, constantly dragging programmes around to get access to other windows. If the OS was that wonderful and easy, how come most people don't know how to use it? Not saying people use all of Windows fully either, but it kind of undermines the Mac claim to be sooo easy, when people so obviously don't know the basics.
The main difference I find between a Mac and the PC, is that I have to use the mouse a lot more [even though I know plenty of Mac keyboard shortcuts] and I have to use more fingers/hands to do the same tasks when using a Mac as compared to a PC. Especially if you want to do something as simple as a right click on a laptop. And the context click not being on by default, duh!
Plus the Mac interface is friggin' awful when using dual monitors as the programme and menu bar are completely disassociated for any programme running on the second monitor, which undermines the major usefullness of the dual monitor setup.
It seems as though most reviews in PC publications disagree with your statements. You may feel otherwise, and good for you.
If you ladies want to argue Mac vs. PC, head on over to the BattleFront at Ars…
Uh, isn't this a thread about Apple & multi-touch input surface patents??!?
If you ladies want to argue Mac vs. PC, head on over to the BattleFront at Ars?
I'm just replying to the statement that he used them on PCs before Apple installed them. Once he gives us the models he used, this will end.