Did anyone realize that the iPhone SDK runs only on Intel Macs??
OMG. Did anyone realize that Apple is not supporting ancient technology for developers who probably have all upgraded by now? Let's all bash Apple for forgetting this trivial detail.
On the desktop and laptop, I still believe Flash is good and important. Mobile, not sure about that.
As for Java, will it please frickin' die already !!! DIE!!! Bloated piece of garbage. Always has been.
Well, in a few words you've proven you know nothing about programming. Go back to your crappy flash-based web design and leave the technical discussion to the professionals. Thanx.
The version of Java that Sun wants to implement on the iPhone is J2ME (Java 2 Micro Edition), which is designed for embedded devices, which lack the memory and processing power of a desktop computer.
From what I understand memory management is different in this version, so you have to be very careful with the number of objects you create a destroy. This is something that programmers will have to watch out for. Additionally not all the APIs available to the desktop/server version will be available for the J2ME version.
I hope this ends up being a nice CDC Personal Profile implementation and not just more CLDC/MIDP like we see on most other phones. With that and an app similar to Apple's Jar Bundler for the iPhone, we could see some really nice Java apps on the iPhone.
OMG. Did anyone realize that Apple is not supporting ancient technology for developers who probably have all upgraded by now? Let's all bash Apple for forgetting this trivial detail.
Intel Macs were first introduced in 2006, and Intel MacPros were introduced in Aug '06. Merely 1.5 years ago.
Intel Macs were first introduced in 2006, and Intel MacPros were introduced in Aug '06. Merely 1.5 years ago.
Hardly "ancient technology" wouldn't you say.
Well, to the Mac world, the PPC machines are dead and gone for most purposes. Right now, there are more Intel machines in the wild than PPC models, and the truth is that if you have only PPC machines, you can't develop for the newer models in any effective way.
If someone wants to consider themselves to be a *developer*, rather than a hobbyist, an Intel machine is a must. Developers can't have an effective business if they just develop for a continually shrinking market. The problem with a large portion of the PPC market is that many of those people don't buy new software anymore, so the market is even smaller than the numbers suggest.
And as Apple is rightly attempting to move people to the newer, viable platform, you shouldn't be surprised that new developer tools won't work on the now, obsolete generations. Many developers don't even bother to keep the PPC versions of their programs (for those who do have PPC versions) current.
Apple has no reason to promote Java on the iPhone. Like every other 3rd party application, the JVM would be user downloadable and not an item that would automatically be installed.
Apple showed what applications, including awesome games, could be created with the SDK. What does Java bring to the iPhone that the SDK doesn't already address? Answer: Nothing
Apple has no reason to promote Java on the iPhone. Like every other 3rd party application, the JVM would be user downloadable and not an item that would automatically be installed.
Apple showed what applications, including awesome games, could be created with the SDK. What does Java bring to the iPhone that the SDK doesn't already address? Answer: Nothing
Well, the compatibility argument will not help Java. I can't even remember the last time I visited a site that had Java - and when it did - I was like "oh fuck - not java"
No Java is not going to stop people from buying an iPhone - same with flash.
Well, the compatibility argument will not help Java. I can't even remember the last time I visited a site that had Java - and when it did - I was like "oh fuck - not java"
No Java is not going to stop people from buying an iPhone - same with flash.
I didn't say that it would stop (most) people from buying a phone.
But, other than some people who always seem to hate some slightly, occasionally annoying aspect of both, the majority don't seem to have a problem with it. I don't, even though there are a few ads, and such that are annoying. I fugure it's like anything else.
Besides, ban Java and Flash (and now perhaps Silverlight), and something else will spring up to take their place.
It's naive to believe that if both were to go away, the problems you sometimes experience will also go away. Programmers will come up with other, potentially, more problematic, ways to do the same thing, except that it may be worse.
Apple has no reason to promote Java on the iPhone. Like every other 3rd party application, the JVM would be user downloadable and not an item that would automatically be installed.
Apple showed what applications, including awesome games, could be created with the SDK. What does Java bring to the iPhone that the SDK doesn't already address? Answer: Nothing
I am curious how Sun (stock ticket JAVA, btw) intends to push this out.
If the JVM is pushed out as a stand alone app or installation, Apple has to approve it. Will they?
Also, that model implies that subsequent apps that use the JVM would have to somehow communicate with the JVM. From what I'm seeing of the SDK, apps won't be allowed to cross-communicate (outside of strict confines.)
The other option seems to be to build the JVM into every app. That sounds like a 'winner'.
What are the other options (question for anyone who's looked more closely at it?)
I am curious how Sun (stock ticket JAVA, btw) intends to push this out.
If the JVM is pushed out as a stand alone app or installation, Apple has to approve it. Will they?
Also, that model implies that subsequent apps that use the JVM would have to somehow communicate with the JVM. From what I'm seeing of the SDK, apps won't be allowed to cross-communicate (outside of strict confines.)
The other option seems to be to build the JVM into every app. That sounds like a 'winner'.
What are the other options (question for anyone who's looked more closely at it?)
Building it into an app is very doable. It should add about a MB to the size of the app, which isn't a dealbreaker. But, that still wouldn't get it to work with Safari, though the current Javascript seems to be doing ok. Perhaps Javascript could be improved to the point where Java is less of a requirement.
I didn't say you couldn't. I said that developing on a PPC machine for Intel is less effective, which is true for many reasons.
Yeah, that is true. But it's a far cry from impossible. I'm only a hobbyist developer, and my G5 needs to last another couple of years, but I haven't found many difficulties with it for that purpose.
To those of you complaining regarding the Intel-only option:
Do you guis understand what iPhone SDK is?
With Xcode, creating a universal application boils down to turning on a couple of checkboxes (well, in most cases at least). But there is a lot of work behind this simplicity. Part of the work was not done by Apple - they are using open source compiler.
The iPhone SDK has a hardware simulator and requires different compiler. It is a large and complex software product on it's own. It requires development, quality assurance (this implies testing on supported hardware) and support.
SDK is still in beta. Polishing out the rough edges will take time (another year or so). It makes absolutely no sense for Apple to release a PPC version. Two years from now PPC WILL be an archaic hardware (at least for developers) and all the investment in the PPC version will go down the drain.
LOL I was going to say something in that post but this "Java war" thread is starting to waste my time. Not in regards to your post but more along the lines of my
being assaulted with "Leave this discussion to the professionals"...
I am to blame though for further flame wars here, because, for some reason I have a deep emotional reaction to what I perceive to be a failure of almost everything that Java promised/promises.
I did earlier say WILL JAVA JUST DIE ALREADY. Which is a sentiment that while not total, is certainly shared among many people.
In the online space anyway (not counting JSP or JavaScript... both of which are somewhat different) I would rather anyday have a dodgy Flash website than a dodgy Java applet loading. I do not like any of my Java games on my mobile phone, and have not found good embedded Java on my devices, I imagine Linksys routers which are kinda okay, use some form of Linux?
As a wise poster pointed out as well, this is Java for mobile not desktop Java which places even more constraints on Java in the iPhone context.
Comments
Did anyone realize that the iPhone SDK runs only on Intel Macs??
OMG. Did anyone realize that Apple is not supporting ancient technology for developers who probably have all upgraded by now? Let's all bash Apple for forgetting this trivial detail.
On the desktop and laptop, I still believe Flash is good and important. Mobile, not sure about that.
As for Java, will it please frickin' die already !!! DIE!!! Bloated piece of garbage. Always has been.
Well, in a few words you've proven you know nothing about programming. Go back to your crappy flash-based web design and leave the technical discussion to the professionals. Thanx.
Did anyone realize that the iPhone SDK runs only on Intel Macs??
You'd think that wouldn't you...
Amorya
From what I understand memory management is different in this version, so you have to be very careful with the number of objects you create a destroy. This is something that programmers will have to watch out for. Additionally not all the APIs available to the desktop/server version will be available for the J2ME version.
Wikipedia page on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J2ME
Badly written programs are bad in any language, it is just some languages attract more bad programmers.
OMG. Did anyone realize that Apple is not supporting ancient technology for developers who probably have all upgraded by now? Let's all bash Apple for forgetting this trivial detail.
Intel Macs were first introduced in 2006, and Intel MacPros were introduced in Aug '06. Merely 1.5 years ago.
Hardly "ancient technology" wouldn't you say.
.....
Good one. I totally agree.
Intel Macs were first introduced in 2006, and Intel MacPros were introduced in Aug '06. Merely 1.5 years ago.
Hardly "ancient technology" wouldn't you say.
Well, to the Mac world, the PPC machines are dead and gone for most purposes. Right now, there are more Intel machines in the wild than PPC models, and the truth is that if you have only PPC machines, you can't develop for the newer models in any effective way.
If someone wants to consider themselves to be a *developer*, rather than a hobbyist, an Intel machine is a must. Developers can't have an effective business if they just develop for a continually shrinking market. The problem with a large portion of the PPC market is that many of those people don't buy new software anymore, so the market is even smaller than the numbers suggest.
And as Apple is rightly attempting to move people to the newer, viable platform, you shouldn't be surprised that new developer tools won't work on the now, obsolete generations. Many developers don't even bother to keep the PPC versions of their programs (for those who do have PPC versions) current.
How will you know?
Apple has no reason to promote Java on the iPhone. Like every other 3rd party application, the JVM would be user downloadable and not an item that would automatically be installed.
Apple showed what applications, including awesome games, could be created with the SDK. What does Java bring to the iPhone that the SDK doesn't already address? Answer: Nothing
Apple has no reason to promote Java on the iPhone. Like every other 3rd party application, the JVM would be user downloadable and not an item that would automatically be installed.
Apple showed what applications, including awesome games, could be created with the SDK. What does Java bring to the iPhone that the SDK doesn't already address? Answer: Nothing
Except compatibility, as with Flash.
Except compatibility, as with Flash.
Well, the compatibility argument will not help Java. I can't even remember the last time I visited a site that had Java - and when it did - I was like "oh fuck - not java"
No Java is not going to stop people from buying an iPhone - same with flash.
Well, the compatibility argument will not help Java. I can't even remember the last time I visited a site that had Java - and when it did - I was like "oh fuck - not java"
No Java is not going to stop people from buying an iPhone - same with flash.
I didn't say that it would stop (most) people from buying a phone.
But, other than some people who always seem to hate some slightly, occasionally annoying aspect of both, the majority don't seem to have a problem with it. I don't, even though there are a few ads, and such that are annoying. I fugure it's like anything else.
Besides, ban Java and Flash (and now perhaps Silverlight), and something else will spring up to take their place.
It's naive to believe that if both were to go away, the problems you sometimes experience will also go away. Programmers will come up with other, potentially, more problematic, ways to do the same thing, except that it may be worse.
Apple has no reason to promote Java on the iPhone. Like every other 3rd party application, the JVM would be user downloadable and not an item that would automatically be installed.
Apple showed what applications, including awesome games, could be created with the SDK. What does Java bring to the iPhone that the SDK doesn't already address? Answer: Nothing
I am curious how Sun (stock ticket JAVA, btw) intends to push this out.
If the JVM is pushed out as a stand alone app or installation, Apple has to approve it. Will they?
Also, that model implies that subsequent apps that use the JVM would have to somehow communicate with the JVM. From what I'm seeing of the SDK, apps won't be allowed to cross-communicate (outside of strict confines.)
The other option seems to be to build the JVM into every app. That sounds like a 'winner'.
What are the other options (question for anyone who's looked more closely at it?)
the truth is that if you have only PPC machines, you can't develop for the newer models in any effective way..
Not true. You can compile for Intel on a PowerPC mac, just the same as the other way round.
I am curious how Sun (stock ticket JAVA, btw) intends to push this out.
If the JVM is pushed out as a stand alone app or installation, Apple has to approve it. Will they?
Also, that model implies that subsequent apps that use the JVM would have to somehow communicate with the JVM. From what I'm seeing of the SDK, apps won't be allowed to cross-communicate (outside of strict confines.)
The other option seems to be to build the JVM into every app. That sounds like a 'winner'.
What are the other options (question for anyone who's looked more closely at it?)
Building it into an app is very doable. It should add about a MB to the size of the app, which isn't a dealbreaker. But, that still wouldn't get it to work with Safari, though the current Javascript seems to be doing ok. Perhaps Javascript could be improved to the point where Java is less of a requirement.
Not true. You can compile for Intel on a PowerPC mac, just the same as the other way round.
I didn't say you couldn't. I said that developing on a PPC machine for Intel is less effective, which is true for many reasons.
I didn't say you couldn't. I said that developing on a PPC machine for Intel is less effective, which is true for many reasons.
Yeah, that is true. But it's a far cry from impossible. I'm only a hobbyist developer, and my G5 needs to last another couple of years, but I haven't found many difficulties with it for that purpose.
Amorya
Do you guis understand what iPhone SDK is?
With Xcode, creating a universal application boils down to turning on a couple of checkboxes (well, in most cases at least). But there is a lot of work behind this simplicity. Part of the work was not done by Apple - they are using open source compiler.
The iPhone SDK has a hardware simulator and requires different compiler. It is a large and complex software product on it's own. It requires development, quality assurance (this implies testing on supported hardware) and support.
SDK is still in beta. Polishing out the rough edges will take time (another year or so). It makes absolutely no sense for Apple to release a PPC version. Two years from now PPC WILL be an archaic hardware (at least for developers) and all the investment in the PPC version will go down the drain.
Good one. I totally agree.
LOL I was going to say something in that post but this "Java war" thread is starting to waste my time. Not in regards to your post but more along the lines of my
being assaulted with "Leave this discussion to the professionals"...
I am to blame though for further flame wars here, because, for some reason I have a deep emotional reaction to what I perceive to be a failure of almost everything that Java promised/promises.
I did earlier say WILL JAVA JUST DIE ALREADY.
In the online space anyway (not counting JSP or JavaScript... both of which are somewhat different) I would rather anyday have a dodgy Flash website than a dodgy Java applet loading. I do not like any of my Java games on my mobile phone, and have not found good embedded Java on my devices, I imagine Linksys routers which are kinda okay, use some form of Linux?
As a wise poster pointed out as well, this is Java for mobile not desktop Java which places even more constraints on Java in the iPhone context.