I have no idea where you are going with the "hardcore" can of worms, but please shed the notion that it has a lot to do with hardware. Okay, you got me there. It's just very poor value for gaming, not abysmal. Otherwise I'd run out of adjectives if they somehow made it an even worse deal.
(Hint: my extensive one-minute investigation located a Dell that sports a 3.0GHz Penryn and a 8800GT for $1300, 20" display included.)
Actually, it has a lot to do with hardware. As you say, a decent "non-casual" gaming rig is a mere $1300 with a desktop 3.0Ghz CPU and a 8800GT offered by companies with a lot of desktop sales.
Apple isn't going to compete with this on a [b]gaming value[b] basis.
Taking cost out of the equation the iMac 24" 2.8Ghz 8800GS at $1,950K is an acceptable non-casual gamer machine. Just more expensive in comparison to the Dell. If the advantages for OSX are important and gaming a nice second then an iMac is just fine.
"Non-casual" players play largely the same games as "hardcore" with the difference measured in FPS IMHO. The ratio is likely 100-1 non-casual vs hardcore and again 100-1 casual vs non-casual. The difference between an iMac and the Dell is measured in some FPS in the most demanding games at the highest settings. Not playability where most folks dial down settings anyway.
Sims 2 and WoW sold/sells a heck of a lot more than any other gaming genre. Granted many WoW players are "non-casual" but there are also a lot of casual WoW (non-raiding, non-PVP) players and the iMac is prefectly fine for WoW.
So Apple catering mostly to casual gamers is a prefectly fine strategy for Apple. Even there I would assume the 20" iMac runs many "non-casual" games at acceptable frame rates with the right settings. Heck, Crysis runs on a Alu 20" iMac at lower rez and medium settings.
Actually, it has a lot to do with hardware. As you say, a decent "non-casual" gaming rig is a mere $1300 with a desktop 3.0Ghz CPU and a 8800GT offered by companies with a lot of desktop sales.
Apple isn't going to compete with this on a [b]gaming value[b] basis.
Taking cost out of the equation the iMac 24" 2.8Ghz 8800GS at $1,950K is an acceptable non-casual gamer machine. Just more expensive in comparison to the Dell. If the advantages for OSX are important and gaming a nice second then an iMac is just fine.
Yep, but I was commenting specifically on gaming value.
The Dell was just the very first machine I ran into - if you looked for a 8800GS or 9600GT machine to match the iMac in power, and spent more than one minute looking, I'm guessing you'd find one for $1000. After counting in the Windows license, the Mac has almost exactly half the price/performance.
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"Non-casual" players play largely the same games as "hardcore" with the difference measured in FPS IMHO. The ratio is likely 100-1 non-casual vs hardcore and again 100-1 casual vs non-casual.
Already agreed.
However, how about just saying "hardware enthusiast" since it's unambiguous? I personally take "hardcore gamer" to mean something else - broadly put, someone who takes the game seriously in one way or another, and plays it at a deep level or is highly skilled. What I don't associate with it is hardware. It's exactly because different folks tend to have so varying interpretations for the word, I find it more distracting than useful in a discussion these days.
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The difference between an iMac and the Dell is measured in some FPS in the most demanding games at the highest settings. Not playability where most folks dial down settings anyway.
Sims 2 and WoW sold/sells a heck of a lot more than any other gaming genre. Granted many WoW players are "non-casual" but there are also a lot of casual WoW (non-raiding, non-PVP) players and the iMac is prefectly fine for WoW.
So Apple catering mostly to casual gamers is a prefectly fine strategy for Apple. Even there I would assume the 20" iMac runs many "non-casual" games at acceptable frame rates with the right settings. Heck, Crysis runs on a Alu 20" iMac at lower rez and medium settings.
I'm not saying you *can't* play with them, just that they are poor value for it. Also not saying it's bad strategy that the iMacs are geared for light gaming - obviously going much further than 8800GS would risk compromising the iMac's strengths instead of just adding to its abilities.
Yep, but I was commenting specifically on gaming value.
Ah...I kinda got that but you kinda have to conceed automatically that the iMac represents poor gaming value.
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However, how about just saying "hardware enthusiast" since it's unambiguous? I personally take "hardcore gamer" to mean something else - broadly put, someone who takes the game seriously in one way or another, and plays it at a deep level or is highly skilled.
It still depends on your definition of hardcore gamer. A player that plays WoW and raids 2-3 nights a week is IMHO a hardcore gamer...even though it's only one game in a not particularly demanding genre. The iMac serves as an adequate gaming box for some segment of the "hardcore" market IF that's your definition.
It can also be argued (probably not by me, that you can be a "hardcore" Sims 2 or Bejeweled player in as much as the casual market has a significant "hardcore" base of customers that spend an inordinate number of hours playing. Heck some have game ladders every bit as competitive as traditional "hardcore" games (like RTS ladders).
So even here, definitions vary among participants even within the industry on casual vs hardcore and of course, potential revenue streams from both. What's that quote? Regardless of (game) genre you don't want YOUR users to be casual. Or something like that.
Hardware or genre might be more useful a differentiator than time/skill in defining casual from non-casual gamers as markets given some casual gamers have the same commitment in time and skill (depends on the game of course...but many card game casual games have a significant skill component).
What I would consider "hardcore" genres to be are: FPS, RTS, RPG, Simulations, wargames, 4X games and maybe a couple others that I forget.
MMOs are halfway.
But it's all rather academic given that Macs will be a poor gaming value as long as games are largely windows native running in boot-camp.
I'm not a casual nor hardcore gamer. I don't like tinkering with computers, in fact, it irritates me no end when I have to, it is quite literally a pain in the butt.
I do appreciate the basic premise for the iMac, I own one.
I also regret that wireless technology has passed my machine behind. To upgrade, I guess I could create more clutter and add an external whatever, but it would be more expensive than a card. Firewire 400 is OK but I'd like Firewire 800 or now the newer Sata external drive options, here to my knowledge, I'm totally out of luck. Who knows what is in store for USB.
But, I do appreciate and desire a tower with slots, both video and PCI. I do appreciate the fact that the monitor is separate with a tower, the computer and monitor rarely need to be replaced at the same time, which allows the better use of my resources. The ability to upgrade the video card is important, but not the be all and end all for me, but it would be a relatively inexpensive way to either @ the time of purchase or later upgrade.
PCI slots would help me maintain my computer as technology changes and it appears that there is no reasonable end in sight to the constant changing in technology. USB, Firewire, Sata, wireless, bluetooth, etc. technologies [i]are not standing still, they are changing. PCI, for little expense to computer manufacturers add flexibility/upgradability to computers. Heck, I'd guess that Apples controller in the iMac could currently handle PCI slots, just run some traces and a plug in point.
Maybe I'm the odd duck, but there seems to be a market for a mid to upper end tower as evidenced by the hackintosh community, and the existence of Pystar. People can rant and rave, call other posters whiners and what not, but in the end, there is a market for us odd ducks.
I wrote a huge reply and then Safari crashed on me. Once again. Why can't they put that Flash plugin into another thread instead of letting it kill the whole browser?
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Originally Posted by vinea
It can also be argued (probably not by me, that you can be a "hardcore" Sims 2 or Bejeweled player in as much as the casual market has a significant "hardcore" base of customers that spend an inordinate number of hours playing. Heck some have game ladders every bit as competitive as traditional "hardcore" games (like RTS ladders).
So even here, definitions vary among participants even within the industry on casual vs hardcore and of course, potential revenue streams from both. What's that quote? Regardless of (game) genre you don't want YOUR users to be casual. Or something like that.
Depends. ROI on both casual games and pure hardcore games can be good. Joe Gamer titles are obviously the most lucrative per title.
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Hardware or genre might be more useful a differentiator than time/skill in defining casual from non-casual gamers as markets given some casual gamers have the same commitment in time and skill (depends on the game of course...but many card game casual games have a significant skill component).
What I would consider "hardcore" genres to be are: FPS, RTS, RPG, Simulations, wargames, 4X games and maybe a couple others that I forget.
I don't see a point in labeling genres hardcore. It's all in individual players' attitudes towards individual games. Simulation and strategy are more hardcore oriented than most. The average FPS, RTS and RPG players aren't that hardcore or taking the game very seriously. They want to shoot something, build a nice base, or see what comes next in the plot rather than not shoot, learn to use basic units right or be a good tourist.
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But it's all rather academic given that Macs will be a poor gaming value as long as games are largely windows native running in boot-camp.
Where the current 8800GS iMac sits at 1/2 the value of a gaming-focused PC, a Mac with desktop graphics could reach 3/4 even with Windows license and Apple margins. That's not great, but it's a lot better than 1/2.
I don't see a point in labeling genres hardcore. It's all in individual players' attitudes towards individual games. Simulation and strategy are more hardcore oriented than most. The average FPS, RTS and RPG players aren't that hardcore or taking the game very seriously.
Well geez, I thought we were having a semi-serious conversation but anyone that thinks nethack is more hardcore than Crysis is a kook even in jest.
But hey, if that's your criteria the Mac Mini is one hardcore gaming machine.
Well geez, I thought we were having a semi-serious conversation but anyone that thinks nethack is more hardcore than Crysis is a kook even in jest.
But hey, if that's your criteria the Mac Mini is one hardcore gaming machine.
You yourself named RPGs as a "hardcore" genre. I said RPGs are not that hardcore in general. Most people play something like NWN or FF, quicksaving every minute and clicking a button once in a while to hit stuff. They aren't after challenge so much as they want to see more plot. If you can't beat something by facerolling, you just wander off to slay random stuff until you have enough gear and stats. You basically can't fail. It is not very "hardcore".
Nethack is a sudden death game. This dude on youtube played over twelve hours in real time, with the worst character of the game, and beat it. I'm not a Nethack player, but I have tried it enough to know you need a serious amount of knowledge of the game, as well as concentration, as well as luck, not to die. I died to hitting one wrong monster once. I died to eating poisoned food. I died to not finding enough food to eat. You name it, a Nethack player has died to it. Most gamers wouldn't get through the game if they tried. How is Nethack *not* hardcore as far as RPGs go?
The same with most FPSs. They are not that hardcore in general. It doesn't take a hardcore player to slug through almost any FPS at Easy while mashing quicksave, or to go on public servers on the net to hurrdurrdeathmatch and get a few kills. The ninja defuse clip shows everything the average FPS player is not.
You yourself named RPGs as a "hardcore" genre. I said RPGs are not that hardcore in general. Most people play something like NWN or FF, quicksaving every minute and clicking a button once in a while to hit stuff. They aren't after challenge so much as they want to see more plot. If you can't beat something by facerolling, you just wander off to slay random stuff until you have enough gear and stats. You basically can't fail. It is not very "hardcore".
Yah, because NetHack = Oblivion. Why hardware is not a differentiator at all and you can play Oblivion on your mini...just like NetHack.
I personally take "hardcore gamer" to mean something else - broadly put, someone who takes the game seriously in one way or another, and plays it at a deep level or is highly skilled. What I don't associate with it is hardware.
I said this a few posts back. Maybe you didn't read it?
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Originally Posted by vinea
Yah, because NetHack = Oblivion. Why hardware is not a differentiator at all and you can play Oblivion on your mini...just like NetHack.
Wow...you were serious.
I have no idea what you are trying to say here and what Oblivion has to do with anything.
I said this a few posts back. Maybe you didn't read it?
Yea, I read it. So you wrote it must be the truth eh?
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I have no idea what you are trying to say here and what Oblivion has to do with anything.
Because Oblivion, for it's time, was hardware intensive. Oh, yeah...requiring a pretty decent gaming rig to run. So folks with so-so rigs couldn't really play Oblivion till they upgraded their graphics cards.
Oh wait, that seems to contradict your "hardware doesn't mean anything" assertion.
Yea, I read it. So you wrote it must be the truth eh?
I told you what I mean by the term "hardcore gamer" or "hardcore gaming". That is called a definition. They are neither true or untrue.
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Because Oblivion, for it's time, was hardware intensive. Oh, yeah...requiring a pretty decent gaming rig to run. So folks with so-so rigs couldn't really play Oblivion till they upgraded their graphics cards.
Oh wait, that seems to contradict your "hardware doesn't mean anything" assertion.
I have never, ever asserted that hardware does not mean anything. If you feel otherwise, point out where I say so. And please read it a couple times first to make sure you have understood.
If you want to use your own definition of "hardcore gamer", please do, but define it first. Don't assume I'm telepathic.
You have been an ass three out of three last posts. Reading comprehension FTW. Seriously. This feels like talking to someone with mild autism. They often just skip some facts or logical steps in an argument and carry on as if the other person could look in their head.
I told you what I mean by the term "hardcore gamer" or "hardcore gaming". That is called a definition. They are neither true or untrue.
So this is why you keep telling melgross that hardware is not part of the definition? If they are neither true nor untrue then his definition is just as valid (if not more so) than yours and hardcore gamer can be defined by...hardware.
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I have never, ever asserted that hardware does not mean anything. If you feel otherwise, point out where I say so. And please read it a couple times first to make sure you have understood.
Here you go:
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I have no idea where you are going with the "hardcore" can of worms, but please shed the notion that it has a lot to do with hardware.
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If you want to use your own definition of "hardcore gamer", please do, but define it first. Don't assume I'm telepathic.
I did. Then you said I was wrong:
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I don't see a point in labeling genres hardcore.
Oh wait, definitions aren't true or untrue. But somehow definitions that disagree with yours has "no point" or should be" shed".
Gee.
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You have been an ass three out of three last posts. Reading comprehension FTW.
Yep, I can read so I've been responding in kind. Mel is more polite.
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Seriously. This feels like talking to someone with mild autism. They often just skip some facts or logical steps in an argument and carry on as if the other person could look in their head.
Yeah...because if you simply ignore the other side's point then they never wrote it. Hey look! A quoting mechanism:
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Hardware or genre might be more useful a differentiator than time/skill in defining casual from non-casual gamers as markets given some casual gamers have the same commitment in time and skill (depends on the game of course...but many card game casual games have a significant skill component).
What I would consider "hardcore" genres to be are: FPS, RTS, RPG, Simulations, wargames, 4X games and maybe a couple others that I forget.
But I never wrote that. Doesn't exist. Nope...in actuality the readers of this post are all telepathic and looked in my head...
My plan was to have one, facing up, at the top of the machine, in the middle, with a pop off ventiation slot, for an Express 2 graphics card.
But, the card couldn't be a high power card, as those consume over 200 watts.
I would think you'd stick with MXM for the GPU since that's a 16 lane interface vs the 1 lane in the expresscard. It is unfortunate that there's no aftermarket upgrade path even for the MXM based iMacs.
A door for the MXM bay and offering an upgrade path would be nice of Apple to do in the next iMac. I think that would answer many of the remaining criticisms of the iMac if you could upgrade the GPU to the latest and greatest. If you had both then the iMac would be able to handle "prosumer" specialty cards with an PCIe expansion bay off the expresscard slot.
Comments
Read it over until "non-casual" sinks in. Casual gamers are on neither side of that comparison.
Sorry, I meant to say non-casual. so which is it?
I have no idea where you are going with the "hardcore" can of worms, but please shed the notion that it has a lot to do with hardware. Okay, you got me there. It's just very poor value for gaming, not abysmal. Otherwise I'd run out of adjectives if they somehow made it an even worse deal.
(Hint: my extensive one-minute investigation located a Dell that sports a 3.0GHz Penryn and a 8800GT for $1300, 20" display included.)
Actually, it has a lot to do with hardware. As you say, a decent "non-casual" gaming rig is a mere $1300 with a desktop 3.0Ghz CPU and a 8800GT offered by companies with a lot of desktop sales.
Apple isn't going to compete with this on a [b]gaming value[b] basis.
Taking cost out of the equation the iMac 24" 2.8Ghz 8800GS at $1,950K is an acceptable non-casual gamer machine. Just more expensive in comparison to the Dell. If the advantages for OSX are important and gaming a nice second then an iMac is just fine.
"Non-casual" players play largely the same games as "hardcore" with the difference measured in FPS IMHO. The ratio is likely 100-1 non-casual vs hardcore and again 100-1 casual vs non-casual. The difference between an iMac and the Dell is measured in some FPS in the most demanding games at the highest settings. Not playability where most folks dial down settings anyway.
Sims 2 and WoW sold/sells a heck of a lot more than any other gaming genre. Granted many WoW players are "non-casual" but there are also a lot of casual WoW (non-raiding, non-PVP) players and the iMac is prefectly fine for WoW.
So Apple catering mostly to casual gamers is a prefectly fine strategy for Apple. Even there I would assume the 20" iMac runs many "non-casual" games at acceptable frame rates with the right settings. Heck, Crysis runs on a Alu 20" iMac at lower rez and medium settings.
Actually, it has a lot to do with hardware. As you say, a decent "non-casual" gaming rig is a mere $1300 with a desktop 3.0Ghz CPU and a 8800GT offered by companies with a lot of desktop sales.
Apple isn't going to compete with this on a [b]gaming value[b] basis.
Taking cost out of the equation the iMac 24" 2.8Ghz 8800GS at $1,950K is an acceptable non-casual gamer machine. Just more expensive in comparison to the Dell. If the advantages for OSX are important and gaming a nice second then an iMac is just fine.
Yep, but I was commenting specifically on gaming value.
The Dell was just the very first machine I ran into - if you looked for a 8800GS or 9600GT machine to match the iMac in power, and spent more than one minute looking, I'm guessing you'd find one for $1000. After counting in the Windows license, the Mac has almost exactly half the price/performance.
"Non-casual" players play largely the same games as "hardcore" with the difference measured in FPS IMHO. The ratio is likely 100-1 non-casual vs hardcore and again 100-1 casual vs non-casual.
Already agreed.
However, how about just saying "hardware enthusiast" since it's unambiguous? I personally take "hardcore gamer" to mean something else - broadly put, someone who takes the game seriously in one way or another, and plays it at a deep level or is highly skilled. What I don't associate with it is hardware. It's exactly because different folks tend to have so varying interpretations for the word, I find it more distracting than useful in a discussion these days.
The difference between an iMac and the Dell is measured in some FPS in the most demanding games at the highest settings. Not playability where most folks dial down settings anyway.
Sims 2 and WoW sold/sells a heck of a lot more than any other gaming genre. Granted many WoW players are "non-casual" but there are also a lot of casual WoW (non-raiding, non-PVP) players and the iMac is prefectly fine for WoW.
So Apple catering mostly to casual gamers is a prefectly fine strategy for Apple. Even there I would assume the 20" iMac runs many "non-casual" games at acceptable frame rates with the right settings. Heck, Crysis runs on a Alu 20" iMac at lower rez and medium settings.
I'm not saying you *can't* play with them, just that they are poor value for it. Also not saying it's bad strategy that the iMacs are geared for light gaming - obviously going much further than 8800GS would risk compromising the iMac's strengths instead of just adding to its abilities.
Yep, but I was commenting specifically on gaming value.
Ah...I kinda got that but you kinda have to conceed automatically that the iMac represents poor gaming value.
However, how about just saying "hardware enthusiast" since it's unambiguous? I personally take "hardcore gamer" to mean something else - broadly put, someone who takes the game seriously in one way or another, and plays it at a deep level or is highly skilled.
It still depends on your definition of hardcore gamer. A player that plays WoW and raids 2-3 nights a week is IMHO a hardcore gamer...even though it's only one game in a not particularly demanding genre. The iMac serves as an adequate gaming box for some segment of the "hardcore" market IF that's your definition.
It can also be argued (probably not by me, that you can be a "hardcore" Sims 2 or Bejeweled player in as much as the casual market has a significant "hardcore" base of customers that spend an inordinate number of hours playing. Heck some have game ladders every bit as competitive as traditional "hardcore" games (like RTS ladders).
So even here, definitions vary among participants even within the industry on casual vs hardcore and of course, potential revenue streams from both. What's that quote? Regardless of (game) genre you don't want YOUR users to be casual. Or something like that.
Hardware or genre might be more useful a differentiator than time/skill in defining casual from non-casual gamers as markets given some casual gamers have the same commitment in time and skill (depends on the game of course...but many card game casual games have a significant skill component).
What I would consider "hardcore" genres to be are: FPS, RTS, RPG, Simulations, wargames, 4X games and maybe a couple others that I forget.
MMOs are halfway.
But it's all rather academic given that Macs will be a poor gaming value as long as games are largely windows native running in boot-camp.
I'm not a casual nor hardcore gamer. I don't like tinkering with computers, in fact, it irritates me no end when I have to, it is quite literally a pain in the butt.
I do appreciate the basic premise for the iMac, I own one.
I also regret that wireless technology has passed my machine behind. To upgrade, I guess I could create more clutter and add an external whatever, but it would be more expensive than a card. Firewire 400 is OK but I'd like Firewire 800 or now the newer Sata external drive options, here to my knowledge, I'm totally out of luck. Who knows what is in store for USB.
But, I do appreciate and desire a tower with slots, both video and PCI. I do appreciate the fact that the monitor is separate with a tower, the computer and monitor rarely need to be replaced at the same time, which allows the better use of my resources. The ability to upgrade the video card is important, but not the be all and end all for me, but it would be a relatively inexpensive way to either @ the time of purchase or later upgrade.
PCI slots would help me maintain my computer as technology changes and it appears that there is no reasonable end in sight to the constant changing in technology. USB, Firewire, Sata, wireless, bluetooth, etc. technologies [i]are not standing still, they are changing. PCI, for little expense to computer manufacturers add flexibility/upgradability to computers. Heck, I'd guess that Apples controller in the iMac could currently handle PCI slots, just run some traces and a plug in point.
Maybe I'm the odd duck, but there seems to be a market for a mid to upper end tower as evidenced by the hackintosh community, and the existence of Pystar. People can rant and rave, call other posters whiners and what not, but in the end, there is a market for us odd ducks.
Heck, I'd guess that Apples controller in the iMac could currently handle PCI slots, just run some traces and a plug in point.
At the very least Apple could offer some ExpressCard slots in the iMac (and the Mac mini as well).
3 PCIe lanes are unused as well as many USB ports (since ExpressCard slots use PCIe+USB).
This would be better than nothing.
- Mac mini updated to Montevina + one ExpressCard slot (in june/july)
- iMac updated to Montevina (including a quad-core model in september) + two ExpressCard slots
Sorry for the big images.
At the very least Apple could offer some ExpressCard slots in the iMac (and the Mac mini as well).
3 PCIe lanes are unused as well as many USB ports (since ExpressCard slots use PCIe+USB).
This would be better than nothing.
- Mac mini updated to Montevina + one ExpressCard slot (in june/july)
- iMac updated to Montevina (including a quad-core model in september) + two ExpressCard slots
Yes, that was on my wishlist for the next mini...an expresscard slot. Heck one slot on the iMac would be great, much less two.
It can also be argued (probably not by me, that you can be a "hardcore" Sims 2 or Bejeweled player in as much as the casual market has a significant "hardcore" base of customers that spend an inordinate number of hours playing. Heck some have game ladders every bit as competitive as traditional "hardcore" games (like RTS ladders).
I certainly call this hardcore.
So even here, definitions vary among participants even within the industry on casual vs hardcore and of course, potential revenue streams from both. What's that quote? Regardless of (game) genre you don't want YOUR users to be casual. Or something like that.
Depends. ROI on both casual games and pure hardcore games can be good. Joe Gamer titles are obviously the most lucrative per title.
Hardware or genre might be more useful a differentiator than time/skill in defining casual from non-casual gamers as markets given some casual gamers have the same commitment in time and skill (depends on the game of course...but many card game casual games have a significant skill component).
What I would consider "hardcore" genres to be are: FPS, RTS, RPG, Simulations, wargames, 4X games and maybe a couple others that I forget.
I don't see a point in labeling genres hardcore. It's all in individual players' attitudes towards individual games. Simulation and strategy are more hardcore oriented than most. The average FPS, RTS and RPG players aren't that hardcore or taking the game very seriously. They want to shoot something, build a nice base, or see what comes next in the plot rather than not shoot, learn to use basic units right or be a good tourist.
But it's all rather academic given that Macs will be a poor gaming value as long as games are largely windows native running in boot-camp.
Where the current 8800GS iMac sits at 1/2 the value of a gaming-focused PC, a Mac with desktop graphics could reach 3/4 even with Windows license and Apple margins. That's not great, but it's a lot better than 1/2.
I don't see a point in labeling genres hardcore. It's all in individual players' attitudes towards individual games. Simulation and strategy are more hardcore oriented than most. The average FPS, RTS and RPG players aren't that hardcore or taking the game very seriously.
Well geez, I thought we were having a semi-serious conversation but anyone that thinks nethack is more hardcore than Crysis is a kook even in jest.
But hey, if that's your criteria the Mac Mini is one hardcore gaming machine.
Well geez, I thought we were having a semi-serious conversation but anyone that thinks nethack is more hardcore than Crysis is a kook even in jest.
But hey, if that's your criteria the Mac Mini is one hardcore gaming machine.
You yourself named RPGs as a "hardcore" genre. I said RPGs are not that hardcore in general. Most people play something like NWN or FF, quicksaving every minute and clicking a button once in a while to hit stuff. They aren't after challenge so much as they want to see more plot. If you can't beat something by facerolling, you just wander off to slay random stuff until you have enough gear and stats. You basically can't fail. It is not very "hardcore".
Nethack is a sudden death game. This dude on youtube played over twelve hours in real time, with the worst character of the game, and beat it. I'm not a Nethack player, but I have tried it enough to know you need a serious amount of knowledge of the game, as well as concentration, as well as luck, not to die. I died to hitting one wrong monster once. I died to eating poisoned food. I died to not finding enough food to eat. You name it, a Nethack player has died to it. Most gamers wouldn't get through the game if they tried. How is Nethack *not* hardcore as far as RPGs go?
The same with most FPSs. They are not that hardcore in general. It doesn't take a hardcore player to slug through almost any FPS at Easy while mashing quicksave, or to go on public servers on the net to hurrdurrdeathmatch and get a few kills. The ninja defuse clip shows everything the average FPS player is not.
You yourself named RPGs as a "hardcore" genre. I said RPGs are not that hardcore in general. Most people play something like NWN or FF, quicksaving every minute and clicking a button once in a while to hit stuff. They aren't after challenge so much as they want to see more plot. If you can't beat something by facerolling, you just wander off to slay random stuff until you have enough gear and stats. You basically can't fail. It is not very "hardcore".
Yah, because NetHack = Oblivion. Why hardware is not a differentiator at all and you can play Oblivion on your mini...just like NetHack.
How is Nethack *not* hardcore as far as RPGs go?
Wow...you were serious.
I personally take "hardcore gamer" to mean something else - broadly put, someone who takes the game seriously in one way or another, and plays it at a deep level or is highly skilled. What I don't associate with it is hardware.
I said this a few posts back. Maybe you didn't read it?
Yah, because NetHack = Oblivion. Why hardware is not a differentiator at all and you can play Oblivion on your mini...just like NetHack.
Wow...you were serious.
I have no idea what you are trying to say here and what Oblivion has to do with anything.
I said this a few posts back. Maybe you didn't read it?
Yea, I read it. So you wrote it must be the truth eh?
I have no idea what you are trying to say here and what Oblivion has to do with anything.
Because Oblivion, for it's time, was hardware intensive. Oh, yeah...requiring a pretty decent gaming rig to run. So folks with so-so rigs couldn't really play Oblivion till they upgraded their graphics cards.
Oh wait, that seems to contradict your "hardware doesn't mean anything" assertion.
Yea, I read it. So you wrote it must be the truth eh?
I told you what I mean by the term "hardcore gamer" or "hardcore gaming". That is called a definition. They are neither true or untrue.
Because Oblivion, for it's time, was hardware intensive. Oh, yeah...requiring a pretty decent gaming rig to run. So folks with so-so rigs couldn't really play Oblivion till they upgraded their graphics cards.
Oh wait, that seems to contradict your "hardware doesn't mean anything" assertion.
I have never, ever asserted that hardware does not mean anything. If you feel otherwise, point out where I say so. And please read it a couple times first to make sure you have understood.
If you want to use your own definition of "hardcore gamer", please do, but define it first. Don't assume I'm telepathic.
You have been an ass three out of three last posts. Reading comprehension FTW. Seriously. This feels like talking to someone with mild autism. They often just skip some facts or logical steps in an argument and carry on as if the other person could look in their head.
I told you what I mean by the term "hardcore gamer" or "hardcore gaming". That is called a definition. They are neither true or untrue.
So this is why you keep telling melgross that hardware is not part of the definition? If they are neither true nor untrue then his definition is just as valid (if not more so) than yours and hardcore gamer can be defined by...hardware.
I have never, ever asserted that hardware does not mean anything. If you feel otherwise, point out where I say so. And please read it a couple times first to make sure you have understood.
Here you go:
I have no idea where you are going with the "hardcore" can of worms, but please shed the notion that it has a lot to do with hardware.
If you want to use your own definition of "hardcore gamer", please do, but define it first. Don't assume I'm telepathic.
I did. Then you said I was wrong:
I don't see a point in labeling genres hardcore.
Oh wait, definitions aren't true or untrue. But somehow definitions that disagree with yours has "no point" or should be" shed".
Gee.
You have been an ass three out of three last posts. Reading comprehension FTW.
Yep, I can read so I've been responding in kind. Mel is more polite.
Seriously. This feels like talking to someone with mild autism. They often just skip some facts or logical steps in an argument and carry on as if the other person could look in their head.
Yeah...because if you simply ignore the other side's point then they never wrote it. Hey look! A quoting mechanism:
Hardware or genre might be more useful a differentiator than time/skill in defining casual from non-casual gamers as markets given some casual gamers have the same commitment in time and skill (depends on the game of course...but many card game casual games have a significant skill component).
What I would consider "hardcore" genres to be are: FPS, RTS, RPG, Simulations, wargames, 4X games and maybe a couple others that I forget.
But I never wrote that. Doesn't exist. Nope...in actuality the readers of this post are all telepathic and looked in my head...
Alas, you are the only one not so gifted.
Is it really this simple?
I don't think so. Many more desktops other that Macs now use mobile chips and chipsets. What proportion of those chip sales go to them?
Depends on how many desktops use mobile chips. I doubt its anywhere near the number of actual notebooks.
Yes, that was on my wishlist for the next mini...an expresscard slot. Heck one slot on the iMac would be great, much less two.
My plan was to have one, facing up, at the top of the machine, in the middle, with a pop off ventiation slot, for an Express 2 graphics card.
But, the card couldn't be a high power card, as those consume over 200 watts.
Depends on how many desktops use mobile chips. I doubt its anywhere near the number of actual notebooks.
No, of course not, not with laptops being about 60% of the total.
But it is a fair percentage, and growing.
At first Intel was against it, but once the trend became unstoppable, they embraced it.
My plan was to have one, facing up, at the top of the machine, in the middle, with a pop off ventiation slot, for an Express 2 graphics card.
But, the card couldn't be a high power card, as those consume over 200 watts.
I would think you'd stick with MXM for the GPU since that's a 16 lane interface vs the 1 lane in the expresscard. It is unfortunate that there's no aftermarket upgrade path even for the MXM based iMacs.
A door for the MXM bay and offering an upgrade path would be nice of Apple to do in the next iMac. I think that would answer many of the remaining criticisms of the iMac if you could upgrade the GPU to the latest and greatest. If you had both then the iMac would be able to handle "prosumer" specialty cards with an PCIe expansion bay off the expresscard slot.