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  • Reply 161 of 425
    frugalityfrugality Posts: 410member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post


    Read Richard Dawkins, to learn about how incredibly cool evolutionary biology is.



    You should see the movie "EXPELLED: No Intelligence Allowed."

    http://www.expelledthemovie.com/



    Richard Dawkins is interviewed quite a bit. The end is hilarious. He suggested that the earth could have been 'seeded' by aliens. Some say that the religious folks are nuts because they believe in that black box called "God made it." But Dawkins and other atheistic evolutionists would rather have us believe in the black box that "it happened by accident" or "space aliens seeded the earth." Either way, it's called....faith.
  • Reply 162 of 425
    tbagginstbaggins Posts: 2,306member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by frugality View Post


    This is a perfect example of "Love the sinner, hate the sin." While we are all created by God and should be loved, some things that we do are not good. Jesus didn't condone Mary Magdaline's profession. He said, "Neither do I condemn you. Now go, and leave your life of sin."



    The same applies to the person who behaves homosexually -- we are not to condemn them, but they should 'go and leave their life of sin.'





    You seem to be arguing for some form of religious tolerance... all well and good, though from your stance I doubt you have any homosexual friends (that you know about, lol).



    But unfortunately, there are plenty of ppl using religion to justify their hatred... like these pinheads:













    So what's uglier... being gay or religion being twisted like this? Very obviously, the latter.



    When I see more religious ppl speaking out against their intolerant, hateful brethren, then I'll have more respect for organized religion in general. But far too many 'people of faith' just let it pass, in the same way that moderate Muslims often remain silent on the excesses of Muslim fundamentalism. Because, to some extent, they sorta kinda agree with them.



    .
  • Reply 163 of 425
    iharryiharry Posts: 42member
    [QUOTE=MiMiC;1251211]I don't need to be careful of what i say. I can be as offensive as i want, it's my right!! Besides, the gay agenda offends me, so what about that? Right, me being offended of you matters not, but you being offended by me does





    Quote:

    Um, God does hate gay sin, if you would actually read and believe what He wrote. Calls them an abomination. That's very descriptive to me. If you want to try and ignore it for the sake of your sin, sure, whatever.



    Leviticus 20

    13. If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.



    Actually, there is no reference to "Gay" or "Homosexual" in the bible. The bible first appeared about 400 years after the crucifixion and is largely a collection of stories not written by any god or Messiah, etc. Quoting Leviticus may leave some to think you may be showing your ignorance in an attempt to hide a narrow minded and bigoted view of others. You see, Leviticus says a lot more than not lying down with other men which by the way has been interpreted to mean something about homosexuality with no proof that it actually does. If you ever actually read the bible you need to read all of Leviticus and you need to doggedly follow it as you do the part you like to quote. Here's what I mean:



    Homophobic bigots often quote two verses that seem to be against gay people. They appear in the book of Leviticus, "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination." (Lev 18:22) "If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them." (Lev 20:13) Look at other scripture verses in the same book (Lev.). This proves that those that are so enthusiastic about quoting the book of Lev. to affirm their prejudice against gays become awfully quiet when it comes to other verses in the very same book. They choose the Bible as the tool to affirm and legitimize hate. The truth is that they just don't like gay people. "For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. His blood shall be upon him." (Lev 20:9) Imagine what would happen if we killed every child who was disrespectful to his parents. The above verse is just 3 verses before Levi 20:13, one of their favorite anti-gay scriptures. Bigots change their entire methodology of scriptural interpretation when it suits their purpose! "If a man lies with a woman during her sickness and uncovers her nakedness, he has discovered her flow, and she has uncovered the flow of her blood. Both of them shall be cut off from her people." (Lev 20:18) What would happen if we deported every man and woman who had ever had sex together while the woman was having her period? Fundies decline the call to take this verse literally. "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property."(Lev 25:44-45) Ever wonder where racists in the 19th century got the idea that slaves were just property and not people? Directly from the above verse, which fundies don?t take literally. "Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard."(Lev 19:27) Fundies never preach against the evils of shaving. Maybe they would if they had a personal bias against shaving. "...and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you."(Lev 11:7) The book of Lev. also prohibits the eating of pork. Fundies do not use this verse to preach against eating pork. Remember, it's about their personal prejudice against gay people, not a desire to understand what the Bible actually says. ".do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear material woven of two kinds of material."(Lev 19:19) Farmers in this country almost always grow more than one kind of crop in their fields. They often must do so for ecological reasons. Fundies also ignore the Biblical command to not wear clothes that have two different kinds of material. The shirts that many fundies are often wearing may be a cotton/poly blend, the most common in the USA. Stone them all! An "abomination?" Fundies also like to use Lev 18:22 to justify their anti-gay prejudice. That verse says, "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination." Perhaps you have heard some people refer to gay people as an "abomination." They get the idea directly from Lev 18:22. But did you know the Bible says that eating shrimp and lobster is an abomination: "But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you." (Lev 11:10) "They (shellfish) shall be an abomination to you; you shall not eat their flesh, but you shall regard their carcasses as an abomination."(Lev 11:11) "Whatever in the water does not have fins or scales; that shall be an abomination to you."(Lev 11:12) Anti-gay fundies selectively quote the Bible and embrace those parts that justify their own personal prejudice against gays.



    In truth, there are 7 or 8 passages in the bible that have been interpreted as admonitions against homosexuality. But, there are approximately 185 admonitions against heterosexuals. Does that mean god hates straight people? Just curious.
  • Reply 164 of 425
    tbagginstbaggins Posts: 2,306member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hezekiahb View Post


    Mary Magdalen is never referred to as a prostitute in the Bible, that is an ideal that came about in later biblical studies. She is only called an adulteress (at least if you take the Talmudic meaning of Magdalen).



    Oh, I'm sorry. Adulteress is much, much better than prostitute. Thanks for that.





    Quote:

    The thief was commended by Christ for his faith, as was Mary. It has nothing to do with status & everything to do with repentance & humility. In the eyes of Christ when you turn from sin towards him you are no longer who you once were but a new creation.



    Sure, but the point is, Jesus didn't shun anyone, regardless of whether they were a 'sinner' or not. So why so many so-called 'people of faith' do so today is very odd to me... they seem to not want to follow Christ's example, even though they are allegedly all about Christ.



    Does anyone honestly picture Jesus, upon his return, walking around holding a "God hates gays" sign? If you do, then I feel really bad for ya.







    .
  • Reply 165 of 425
    frugalityfrugality Posts: 410member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iHarry View Post


    Actually, there is no reference to "Gay" or "Homosexual" in the bible. The bible first appeared about 400 years after the crucifixion and is largely a collection of stories not written by any god or Messiah, etc.



    You should read up on the Dead Sea Scrolls, which were from ~80AD, if I remember correctly.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iHarry View Post


    In truth, there are 7 or 8 passages in the bible that have been interpreted as admonitions against homosexuality. But, there are approximately 185 admonitions against heterosexuals. Does that mean god hates straight people? Just curious.



    No, God just hates sin, and sin can be found in all people. The question is: has your sin been paid for?
  • Reply 166 of 425
    frugalityfrugality Posts: 410member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post


    Sure, but the point is, Jesus didn't shun anyone, regardless of whether they were a 'sinner' or not. So why so many so-called 'people of faith' do so today is very odd to me... they seem to not want to follow Christ's example, even though they are allegedly all about Christ.



    Being like Christ is very difficult. That doesn't mean that it's not the right thing to strive for. You can complain about Christians missing the mark, but if you are not trying yourself, then you're just complaining from the sidelines. You try to be like Christ for a while and see how it goes for you.
  • Reply 167 of 425
    iharryiharry Posts: 42member
    Quote:

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by frugality View Post


    You should read up on the Dead Sea Scrolls, which were from ~80AD, if I remember correctly.



    No, God just hates sin, and sin can be found in all people. The question is: has your sin been paid for?





    The dead sea scrolls say nothing about homosexuality and were not written by god and it's not a sin because you think it is. By the way, are you planning to give up on eating shrimp?
  • Reply 167 of 425
    tbagginstbaggins Posts: 2,306member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iHarry View Post




    Actually, there is no reference to "Gay" or "Homosexual" in the bible. The bible first appeared about 400 years after the crucifixion and is largely a collection of stories not written by any god or Messiah, etc. Quoting Leviticus may leave some to think you may be showing your ignorance in an attempt to hide a narrow minded and bigoted view of others. You see, Leviticus says a lot more than not lying down with other men which by the way has been interpreted to mean something about homosexuality with no proof that it actually does. If you ever actually read the bible you need to read all of Leviticus and you need to doggedly follow it as you do the part you like to quote. Here's what I mean:



    Homophobic bigots often quote two verses that seem to be against gay people. They appear in the book of Leviticus, "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination." (Lev 18:22) "If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them." (Lev 20:13) Look at other scripture verses in the same book (Lev.). This proves that those that are so enthusiastic about quoting the book of Lev. to affirm their prejudice against gays become awfully quiet when it comes to other verses in the very same book.



    They choose the Bible as the tool to affirm and legitimize hate. The truth is that they just don't like gay people.



    "For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. His blood shall be upon him." (Lev 20:9) Imagine what would happen if we killed every child who was disrespectful to his parents. The above verse is just 3 verses before Levi 20:13, one of their favorite anti-gay scriptures. Bigots change their entire methodology of scriptural interpretation when it suits their purpose!



    "If a man lies with a woman during her sickness and uncovers her nakedness, he has discovered her flow, and she has uncovered the flow of her blood. Both of them shall be cut off from her people." (Lev 20:18) What would happen if we deported every man and woman who had ever had sex together while the woman was having her period? Fundies decline the call to take this verse literally.



    "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property."(Lev 25:44-45) Ever wonder where racists in the 19th century got the idea that slaves were just property and not people? Directly from the above verse, which fundies don’t take literally.



    "Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard."(Lev 19:27) Fundies never preach against the evils of shaving. Maybe they would if they had a personal bias against shaving. "...and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you."(Lev 11:7) The book of Lev. also prohibits the eating of pork. Fundies do not use this verse to preach against eating pork. Remember, it's about their personal prejudice against gay people, not a desire to understand what the Bible actually says.



    ".do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear material woven of two kinds of material."(Lev 19:19) Farmers in this country almost always grow more than one kind of crop in their fields. They often must do so for ecological reasons. Fundies also ignore the Biblical command to not wear clothes that have two different kinds of material. The shirts that many fundies are often wearing may be a cotton/poly blend, the most common in the USA. Stone them all!



    An "abomination?" Fundies also like to use Lev 18:22 to justify their anti-gay prejudice. That verse says, "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination." Perhaps you have heard some people refer to gay people as an "abomination." They get the idea directly from Lev 18:22. But did you know the Bible says that eating shrimp and lobster is an abomination: "But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you." (Lev 11:10) "They (shellfish) shall be an abomination to you; you shall not eat their flesh, but you shall regard their carcasses as an abomination."(Lev 11:11) "Whatever in the water does not have fins or scales; that shall be an abomination to you."(Lev 11:12)



    Anti-gay fundies selectively quote the Bible and embrace those parts that justify their own personal prejudice against gays.



    In truth, there are 7 or 8 passages in the bible that have been interpreted as admonitions against homosexuality. But, there are approximately 185 admonitions against heterosexuals. Does that mean god hates straight people? Just curious.







    Well said.











    .
  • Reply 169 of 425
    tbagginstbaggins Posts: 2,306member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by frugality View Post


    Being like Christ is very difficult. That doesn't mean that it's not the right thing to strive for. You can complain about Christians missing the mark, but if you are not trying yourself, then you're just complaining from the sidelines. You try to be like Christ for a while and see how it goes for you.





    For a lapsed Catholic, I do pretty well, actually.



    And if you're a Christian, and you argue for tolerance and "loving the sinner" but do absolutely nothing to promote it, then you are part of the problem.



    What's the quote? "Faith without works is dead."





    .
  • Reply 170 of 425
    hezekiahbhezekiahb Posts: 448member
    [QUOTE=iHarry;1251494]
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MiMiC View Post


    I don't need to be careful of what i say. I can be as offensive as i want, it's my right!! Besides, the gay agenda offends me, so what about that? Right, me being offended of you matters not, but you being offended by me does









    Actually, there is no reference to "Gay" or "Homosexual" in the bible. The bible first appeared about 400 years after the crucifixion and is largely a collection of stories not written by any god or Messiah, etc. Quoting Leviticus may leave some to think you may be showing your ignorance in an attempt to hide a narrow minded and bigoted view of others. You see, Leviticus says a lot more than not lying down with other men which by the way has been interpreted to mean something about homosexuality with no proof that it actually does. If you ever actually read the bible you need to read all of Leviticus and you need to doggedly follow it as you do the part you like to quote. Here's what I mean:



    Homophobic bigots often quote two verses that seem to be against gay people. They appear in the book of Leviticus, "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination." (Lev 18:22) "If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them." (Lev 20:13) Look at other scripture verses in the same book (Lev.). This proves that those that are so enthusiastic about quoting the book of Lev. to affirm their prejudice against gays become awfully quiet when it comes to other verses in the very same book. They choose the Bible as the tool to affirm and legitimize hate. The truth is that they just don't like gay people. "For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. His blood shall be upon him." (Lev 20:9) Imagine what would happen if we killed every child who was disrespectful to his parents. The above verse is just 3 verses before Levi 20:13, one of their favorite anti-gay scriptures. Bigots change their entire methodology of scriptural interpretation when it suits their purpose! "If a man lies with a woman during her sickness and uncovers her nakedness, he has discovered her flow, and she has uncovered the flow of her blood. Both of them shall be cut off from her people." (Lev 20:18) What would happen if we deported every man and woman who had ever had sex together while the woman was having her period? Fundies decline the call to take this verse literally. "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property."(Lev 25:44-45) Ever wonder where racists in the 19th century got the idea that slaves were just property and not people? Directly from the above verse, which fundies don?t take literally. "Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard."(Lev 19:27) Fundies never preach against the evils of shaving. Maybe they would if they had a personal bias against shaving. "...and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you."(Lev 11:7) The book of Lev. also prohibits the eating of pork. Fundies do not use this verse to preach against eating pork. Remember, it's about their personal prejudice against gay people, not a desire to understand what the Bible actually says. ".do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear material woven of two kinds of material."(Lev 19:19) Farmers in this country almost always grow more than one kind of crop in their fields. They often must do so for ecological reasons. Fundies also ignore the Biblical command to not wear clothes that have two different kinds of material. The shirts that many fundies are often wearing may be a cotton/poly blend, the most common in the USA. Stone them all! An "abomination?" Fundies also like to use Lev 18:22 to justify their anti-gay prejudice. That verse says, "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination." Perhaps you have heard some people refer to gay people as an "abomination." They get the idea directly from Lev 18:22. But did you know the Bible says that eating shrimp and lobster is an abomination: "But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you." (Lev 11:10) "They (shellfish) shall be an abomination to you; you shall not eat their flesh, but you shall regard their carcasses as an abomination."(Lev 11:11) "Whatever in the water does not have fins or scales; that shall be an abomination to you."(Lev 11:12) Anti-gay fundies selectively quote the Bible and embrace those parts that justify their own personal prejudice against gays.



    In truth, there are 7 or 8 passages in the bible that have been interpreted as admonitions against homosexuality. But, there are approximately 185 admonitions against heterosexuals. Does that mean god hates straight people? Just curious.



    The Levitical law was harsh because we can not live up to perfection, that is why we need grace. Sorry, but your argument is a terrible one, even though it is passionate. I respect where your coming from, though I do not agree with it. Don't let idiots like iHarry draw you into their game.



    Since so many seem interested in this discussion I created a google group where we may hopefully move this discussion.



    http://groups.google.com/group/theological-debate



    Please feel free to join in if you like & free this forum from our endless ranting.
  • Reply 171 of 425
    frugalityfrugality Posts: 410member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post


    And if you're a Christian, and you argue for tolerance and "loving the sinner" but do absolutely nothing to promote it, then you are part of the problem.



    What's the quote? "Faith without works is dead."



    My brother chose homosexuality. He got into 'furriness' (look that perversion up for yourself if you like) and through that became gay. His partner is also a furry.



    I love my brother as a brother and as a human being made in the image of God. However, I hate his sin and cannot condone it.
  • Reply 172 of 425
    frugalityfrugality Posts: 410member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iHarry View Post


    The dead sea scrolls say nothing about homosexuality and were not written by god and it's not a sin because you think it is. By the way, are you planning to give up on eating shrimp?



    Why should I, if you're saying it was not written by God?



    (actually, it was written by men under the influence of the Holy Spirit)



    God's plan has unfolded through the 1500 or so years the bible came to be, from Moses and the Torah to New Testament. Some things that were forbidden for the Israelites (and notice they were a theocracy), like eating shellfish, were allowed later on. However, homosexuality is condemned throughtout the entire 1500-year bible.



    Read "The Maker's Diet", though, which is written by a Messianic Jew who cured himself of Crohn's Disease as well as a number of other severe ailments by switching to a kosher diet. He gives a number of compelling arguments as to why the kosher rules are good for us physiologically.
  • Reply 173 of 425
    tbagginstbaggins Posts: 2,306member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by frugality View Post


    My brother chose homosexuality. He got into 'furriness' (look that perversion up for yourself if you like) and through that became gay. His partner is also a furry.



    I love my brother as a brother and as a human being made in the image of God. However, I hate his sin and cannot condone it.





    Oh, I'm well aware of what 'furriness' is. It's more amusing than anything else, though I doubt it has any real power to 'turn' anyone gay. Your brother was already gay, being a furry may have just made him more aware of it, that's all.



    It's good that you still love your brother. Try to bear in mind, if you're not already, that his sexual preferences don't change who he is, or alter any of the good things about him.



    Sex is but one aspect of a person. It's amazing how many ppl's view of a person change completely when they choose to view a person entirely through their sexuality (not that you do).





    .
  • Reply 174 of 425
    iharryiharry Posts: 42member
    [QUOTE][QUOTE=hezekiahb;1251506]
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iHarry View Post




    The Levitical law was harsh because we can not live up to perfection, that is why we need grace. Sorry, but your argument is a terrible one, even though it is passionate. I respect where your coming from, though I do not agree with it. Don't let idiots like iHarry draw you into their game.



    Wow, I'm glad you had an argument. So Leviticus is all wrong. How convenient. But by your argument then, homosexuality is not really a sin is it. Which other parts of the bible are "harsh" so we don't waste any time on them? Since you are the expert, do we just follow the passages you chose to or should we wait for the list? You cannot take the bible literally when it suits you. if you take one passage literally you need to take them all literally. I'm an idiot because I point out how ridiculous this is and your a genius because you believe in someone there is not an iota of proof ever existed? Gimmie a break!
  • Reply 175 of 425
    iharryiharry Posts: 42member
    [
    Quote:

    QUOTE=frugality;1251510]Why should I, if you're saying it was not written by God?



    (actually, it was written by men under the influence of the Holy Spirit)



    Or under the influence of to much wine
  • Reply 176 of 425
    tbagginstbaggins Posts: 2,306member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by frugality View Post


    However, homosexuality is condemned throughtout the entire 1500-year bible.





    If you honestly believe that (and many do not), then there's a simple solution for you: DON'T BE GAY.



    And leave the condemnation, if there is to be any, to God.





    .
  • Reply 177 of 425
    wilcowilco Posts: 985member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by frugality View Post


    My brother chose homosexuality. He got into 'furriness' (look that perversion up for yourself if you like) and through that became gay. His partner is also a furry.



    I've got a new signature!
  • Reply 178 of 425
    wilcowilco Posts: 985member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by frugality View Post


    My brother chose homosexuality. He got into 'furriness' (look that perversion up for yourself if you like) and through that became gay. His partner is also a furry.



    My partner (work) wrote an article about "Furries" in Vanity Fair a few years ago. Is this your brother?







    Either way, it's becoming clear where your hang-ups are coming from...
  • Reply 179 of 425
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iHarry View Post


    But did you know the Bible says that eating shrimp and lobster is an abomination:



    And then there are the 10 commandments and the whole Sabbath on Saturday deal.



    Christians are doomed!
  • Reply 180 of 425
    pg4gpg4g Posts: 383member
    Quote:

    My brother chose homosexuality. He got into 'furriness' (look that perversion up for yourself if you like) and through that became gay. His partner is also a furry.



    I love my brother as a brother and as a human being made in the image of God. However, I hate his sin and cannot condone it.



    Someone chooses homosexuality?



    Damn! Where did I go wrong? I must have chosen that at the same time I chose to have a form of autism...



    I am Christian, and won't act on my feelings with another guy, but I see both sides of the coin. I lived previously as both a Christian and an active homosexual.



    I choose to be as objective as I can, and I can tell you one thing, if the person is really homosexual, they never chose it. They may or may not like it, but keep in mind its something they don't choose.



    Perhaps you should spend some time getting to know what its like to grow up as a gay man, perhaps even going so far as one in the church. You will learn a lot about us very very quickly. The gay-bashings (though I act like a normal bloke) may be especially character building for you. The barbed-wire and razor wire cuts around your chest that may end up there for life, like they did for me, may be caused by "Christian young guys" who "know and love God." I had no reason to choose it. For those six hours of my life, I never wanted anything more than never to have endured homosexuality like I did.



    Perhaps you could learn stuff from people who had to deal with it. Thats my point. You can't know from a family member or friend - you are shut out of their world, at least until they come out, and even then, often there is a lot you may not understand.
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