<strong>Yessiree I would lay down 6 or 7 yards easy for a tablet that controlled the "main" system upstairs in my office! That I could be at my desk and working on a project and/or on the net researching... whatever!; and then simply unhook the interface and take it to the john when nature calls or go down stairs for coffee and a change of scenery or (insert here) without skipping a beat!!! That is at least IMO an extreme convenience!</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree with most of your long posting, but I thought some time about the different concepts offered by Jobs and Gates and came to prefer Apple's approach. You say "unhook the interface" - a tablet may have a working handwriting recognition, but this mustn't be enough for everyone. Myself, I need a keyboard, so an iBook with Airport is a perfect "Tablet PC". Sitting somewhere else with a tablet and a stylus may be enough for a Palm, but not for certain work.
In Gates' vision I see many men stumbling through their homes calling "Honey, where did I put my display?" and finally drag their 14-inch-monitor back from the basement.
Notice I never said there could be no keybord or mouse. The tablet could be the display, the writing tablet, and have ports for a keyboard/mouse rig!! No problemo.
Yes, and I also would be one of those guys searching for my lost display only not by my own doing. It would likely walk off with my 3 1/2 yr. old son!!!
Sorry, but I think that M$ tablet thingy is a piece of crap. What the hell is it good for?
Once tablet owners realize that they can type faster than they can write with a stylus (while waiting for the Craplet to recognize the handwriting), their new toys will start collecting dust.
Apple already has an answer to Gate's dumb-ass tablet, it's called the iBook. New 14.1" display, lower price on the 12.1" display, and for the rich and famous, there's always the Titanium.
A laptop will do everything a tablet does, but faster and better.
A laptop will go anywhere a tablet could co, but it's screen is better protected, and it will do more.
The only way a tablet could even come close to the utility and ease of use that laptop provides, is if you plugged a keyboard and mouse into the tablet. And what is a tablet with a keyboard? A laptop!
I really wish that in place of the cube, Apple had released an overpriced tablet, just so you people would quit whineing about how hard life sucks without a tablet to get you through it. Go waste your disposable income on an upgrade to your existing Mac, you'll feel better and maybe even forget about that fictional tablet for a few minutes.
Notice I never said there could be no keybord or mouse. The tablet could be the display, the writing tablet, and have ports for a keyboard/mouse rig!! No problemo.
Yes, and I also would be one of those guys searching for my lost display only not by my own doing. It would likely walk off with my 3 1/2 yr. old son!!</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree with JD - a tablet with a keyboard is a notebook. I can't imagine a tablet to be more practical, I guess it is more likely to be damaged. Easy to imagine what new aspects of "mobile computing" your son would discover if he got the tablet in his hands.
But perhaps a new feature would make it attractive (at least for me): Speech recognition. Not some dumb ViaVoice, but something that's fast and really working. Combined with a stylus it could be really a new way to work on documents, films, files etc. (I must admit that I tried the OSX-built-in speech function but didn't make it work properly).
Tablets, or wireless monitors, are just a useless expression of geek techno-lust. To do it right would cost too much, and will continue to cost too much for the next few years aswell. You basically need to tote the whole computer to accomplish the task. No 'thin client' would be thin enough to be practical and durable.
But what people will find, even when the concept is eventually perfected, is that it isn't very useful at all. Input? Pen? hahaha, the screen makes a good analogue for paper only because you don't need to touch it! Keyboard has been tested as the fastest/simplest input method. Voice? hmmm... expensive to do well. Even today dictation hovers in a very optimistic 95% + accuracy rate -- that sounds good but it still stinks -- a mistake every 20 words! Doesn't matter so much with a KEYBOARD because you can go back and correct quickly. With a web pad? Sorry no alternate input. Unless you go back to the base, or crack out the wireless keyboard -- but isn't that a sight? trying to juggle the wireless keyboard and the wireless web pad while attempting to do some text imput. That's convenient, sure
A *small* high quality eBook reader size device that one uses besides their computer may work. Not a detachable screen, but a *little* slate/PDA?eBook reader. You might as well have a stand alone product as it'll be more useful and cost as much as these thin clients people keep mentioning. That could work as a supplement on you whole home network. Accesses your files, reads web pages, plays back media. But it has to do it on it's own, have it's own storage/OS/proc to be usefull. You can take it with you to use like you would a newton. Then there might be a reason to buy one.
Try to hold up a 15" display. That's what you'd have to hold with one hand to use with the other! Or you'll need to make this detachable monitor a whole lot smaller and who wants to use that as their 'DeskTop' display?
The concept just doesn't make sense as people here are describing it. Sorry. A NEWTON would be usefull/was usefull for those situations where you couldn't sit and deploy a laptop for time/space/ergo reasons -- you had to interview someone quick, log some info for a spontaneous reason, couldn't sit or use a table in the environment you were in. NONE of those situations exist in the home.
<strong>Detachable Monitor Web pad = nearly useless.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I dissagree.
Though I also believe that a tablet as has been described by nearly everyone here has exactly the problems you've pointed out.
I would be interested in being able to?quickly and easily?pull my monitor off its base, walk over to a co?worker's desk, and show him a design.
If it were touchscreen, we could even to some simple mods, and if it had a stylus, then we could even draw right in illustrator, right on the screen(!).
It would also be nice to sit?right near the desk even?with the thing in my lap and surf.
The bulk of the work would be done with the thing in it's normal, upright position, but?and this is important?it'd be the same device no matter where it was, by virtue of being wireless, touchscreen and such.
Most of the time it'll be where my studio display is now: in front of my eyes.
But if it were detachable and touchscreen it then becomes that much more usefull.
Folks, if the need is strong enough, this thing will happen. If not, it won't.
This ViewSonic device may prove to be a good barometer with which we can measure the demand, but personally I think this concept will die a slow, expensive death. Only time will tell.
Yes the display would be mirrored! Yes indeed terminals many places in the home to control the "main" you have it correct and that would be a good thing indeed! But Spiffy, for you to turn around and say that fitting a fully functional computer into the "tablet" No NO NO that is not it at all. Tablet notebook fully functional computer yes, fine but that is a separate issue, and definately not needed to control the "main" system or "hub" system. In fact a notebook computer should eventually have a detachable tablet module that is wireless to the nootbook's base as well and is a tablet that fully functions as the interface to the notebook and doubles as a terminal for your home system. You could have several of these guys around so you don't have to carry the same one around or many users can have their own wireless terminal.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think you might have misunderstood....I was trying to make the point that people get the idea that the tablet would be targeted as a repacement for the notebook computer. What I wrote simply meant that we all know Steve would never do this until the technology was small enough and affordable enough to actually pull it off and be fully-functional as a standalone product. We're not near that point yet - maybe in 4 years. THEREFORE, people MUST begin to view any Apple tablet as a product separate from the realm of portable computing, and instead envision it in a home or design office setting. I agree with you wholeheartedly that it's about sharing a single system amongst several people and several locations. And it's a good way for Apple to make money from people who want to expand without buying another computer to be expensive and take up space
I want - I want - I want! You all sound like three year olds! Let's see if Microsoft hits their 2003 release mark on their tablet and let's see what the thing costs.
Who has anything that looks like the new iMac? Where is this computer other than on some industrial designer's "mock-up" page? Apple's products are here, now, and for the price, they've managed to squeeze some great capabilities into an incredible design.
WACOM already has the "Tablet", though it is wired at the moment and requires a seperate video card. This costs clost to $2000 (15") without the wireless technology, or processing power of even a "thin" client.
Personally the idea of a pad computer is nice, though another poster makes a very valid point that you can type a lot faster than you can write. The problem with Microsoft's view is that it is one screen for one computer. I think that the best way to build such a device for the hardware manufacturer would be to build a "thin-client" based pad. That way they could sell a home "server"/hub, and multiple (much lower cost) pads which wirelessly link with the home network. It still wont eleminate the desktop comuputer, but it would have "geek-appeal"
I loved my Newton. (The PILOTs are a rotten follow on device) I used it a lot - but gave it up because it didn't do everything I do with my desktop. I loved the portability, but it was too small for lots of uses - like web browsing.
I want a tablet. I want it for casual stuff. I want handwriting recognition on it. I don't need a keyboard on the john. I don't need to type a term paper anywhere but at my desktop. I would like to be able to read email and make small replies. I'd like to be able to do surfing and control my desktop from a remote location.
Think about it... aren't there periods of time where you use your computer and hardly ever touch the keyboard? Surfing the web doesn't really require much typing. Those are the times I'd like to be free to take my tablet elsewhere and still have access to my full desktop!
There was an article I read some time ago about what they were working on at PARC... and one of their big projects was thin clients and the ability for anyone to walk up to any desktop in the whole building and have their own private desktop 'pop' up on the desktop that was in front of them (it happened thru wearing a badge that identified them). I agree with them that this is the way I would eventually like to be able to work! I want my desktop EVERYWHERE I am.... I don't want to spend tons of time swapping and syncing between my many machines!!!!!!
I agree totally with Xhorxhi! For those of you who want a laptop to drag around - that is ok for you.... I don't want - nor do I need - a laptop on my lap - I need a tablet with wireless connection back to my desktop.
It would be the utmost of cool to have something simaler to the iPad with Airport like the one in my sig... I am sure you have seen it before...(you can find it at the theapplecollection.com) I wouldnt ever get off the internet...
"Unfortunately for Sony, the Pentium III-based computer was also expensive, ranging from $2,499 to $2,969. That's several hundred dollars more than other high-end Pentium III computers.
"You are paying a premium for the touch screen, and that is always an inhibitor," IDC analyst Roger Kay said, adding, "I really liked it. I really wanted one for my daughter."
Customer acclimation also inhibited sales, Viken said. People had to be taught how to use it. "
So much for "if you make great technology, people will buy it".
1. the stylus has to be a lot more versatile -- which means not only more sensitive like a pencil (or I'd settle for a pen I suppose) but also more flexible with the software side -- where and how do you use it? It must be intuitive (like a pencil) and ubiquitous. I think stylus input will drastically change computer GUIs -- right now you can do stupid things like push buttons (just make them big enough so I can use my finger for the same thing, no opposable digits required), the UI isn't centered around a more precise tool at all.
2. The work surface must be altered as well to be either paper-like in its weight and size or incredibly large and with incredibly high resolution like a drafting board.
Basically, computers should be more like the good ol' fashioned stuff. Not as a mimicry or what would be the point? Take specific criteria of our most successful media (trace paper over papyrus, desk and easel over wall or floor, pencil or brush over marker) -- why they are so successful, and build towards that. Then improve them.
These days, computers are really good at one thing: copying stuff. So it doesn't make much of a difference if you do it with the keyboard mouse or stylus. When they get to be really good at other things like deducing stuff and asking the right questions, we'll get back to the input issue.
<strong>"Unfortunately for Sony, the Pentium III-based computer was also expensive, ranging from $2,499 to $2,969. That's several hundred dollars more than other high-end Pentium III computers.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hm. There are problems #1 and #2. The CPU needs to be PDA-oriented (i.e. ARM or Dragonball -- G3, maybe). Second, the price. Having it cost as much as a mid-range notebook is just braindead.
[quote]<strong>Customer acclimation also inhibited sales, Viken said. People had to be taught how to use it."</strong><hr></blockquote>
What on earth is so different about it that one can't use it like a notebook, except for touch/pen input replacing a trackpad and keyboard!?
[quote]From the Cnet article:<strong> This desktop's special 15-inch, 1,024-by-768-pixel LCD doubles as a pen tablet, making it perfect for sketching in Adobe Illustrator or editing pixels in Adobe Photoshop.</strong><hr></blockquote>
[Screed takes out a notepad and a ruler] Hm, 13 inches of writing space. Compared to the 15in. screen plus the frame around it. Illustrator? Photoshop? A tablet is supposed to be a digital notepad.
It sounds as if Sony did a lot of engineering (ergo the price) but absolutely no human interface testing (ergo the market failure).
This isn't a failure of the tablet form-factor, but more of poor execution. Making a hybrid was just a bad move.
Comments
<strong>Yessiree I would lay down 6 or 7 yards easy for a tablet that controlled the "main" system upstairs in my office! That I could be at my desk and working on a project and/or on the net researching... whatever!; and then simply unhook the interface and take it to the john when nature calls or go down stairs for coffee and a change of scenery or (insert here) without skipping a beat!!! That is at least IMO an extreme convenience!</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree with most of your long posting, but I thought some time about the different concepts offered by Jobs and Gates and came to prefer Apple's approach. You say "unhook the interface" - a tablet may have a working handwriting recognition, but this mustn't be enough for everyone. Myself, I need a keyboard, so an iBook with Airport is a perfect "Tablet PC". Sitting somewhere else with a tablet and a stylus may be enough for a Palm, but not for certain work.
In Gates' vision I see many men stumbling through their homes calling "Honey, where did I put my display?" and finally drag their 14-inch-monitor back from the basement.
[ 01-10-2002: Message edited by: FalkoL ]</p>
Notice I never said there could be no keybord or mouse. The tablet could be the display, the writing tablet, and have ports for a keyboard/mouse rig!! No problemo.
Yes, and I also would be one of those guys searching for my lost display only not by my own doing. It would likely walk off with my 3 1/2 yr. old son!!!
Regards,
Chris
Once tablet owners realize that they can type faster than they can write with a stylus (while waiting for the Craplet to recognize the handwriting), their new toys will start collecting dust.
Apple already has an answer to Gate's dumb-ass tablet, it's called the iBook. New 14.1" display, lower price on the 12.1" display, and for the rich and famous, there's always the Titanium.
A laptop will do everything a tablet does, but faster and better.
A laptop will go anywhere a tablet could co, but it's screen is better protected, and it will do more.
The only way a tablet could even come close to the utility and ease of use that laptop provides, is if you plugged a keyboard and mouse into the tablet. And what is a tablet with a keyboard? A laptop!
I really wish that in place of the cube, Apple had released an overpriced tablet, just so you people would quit whineing about how hard life sucks without a tablet to get you through it. Go waste your disposable income on an upgrade to your existing Mac, you'll feel better and maybe even forget about that fictional tablet for a few minutes.
<strong>FalkoL,
Notice I never said there could be no keybord or mouse. The tablet could be the display, the writing tablet, and have ports for a keyboard/mouse rig!! No problemo.
Yes, and I also would be one of those guys searching for my lost display only not by my own doing. It would likely walk off with my 3 1/2 yr. old son!!</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree with JD - a tablet with a keyboard is a notebook. I can't imagine a tablet to be more practical, I guess it is more likely to be damaged. Easy to imagine what new aspects of "mobile computing" your son would discover if he got the tablet in his hands.
But perhaps a new feature would make it attractive (at least for me): Speech recognition. Not some dumb ViaVoice, but something that's fast and really working. Combined with a stylus it could be really a new way to work on documents, films, files etc. (I must admit that I tried the OSX-built-in speech function but didn't make it work properly).
But what people will find, even when the concept is eventually perfected, is that it isn't very useful at all. Input? Pen? hahaha, the screen makes a good analogue for paper only because you don't need to touch it! Keyboard has been tested as the fastest/simplest input method. Voice? hmmm... expensive to do well. Even today dictation hovers in a very optimistic 95% + accuracy rate -- that sounds good but it still stinks -- a mistake every 20 words! Doesn't matter so much with a KEYBOARD because you can go back and correct quickly. With a web pad? Sorry no alternate input. Unless you go back to the base, or crack out the wireless keyboard -- but isn't that a sight? trying to juggle the wireless keyboard and the wireless web pad while attempting to do some text imput. That's convenient, sure
A *small* high quality eBook reader size device that one uses besides their computer may work. Not a detachable screen, but a *little* slate/PDA?eBook reader. You might as well have a stand alone product as it'll be more useful and cost as much as these thin clients people keep mentioning. That could work as a supplement on you whole home network. Accesses your files, reads web pages, plays back media. But it has to do it on it's own, have it's own storage/OS/proc to be usefull. You can take it with you to use like you would a newton. Then there might be a reason to buy one.
Try to hold up a 15" display. That's what you'd have to hold with one hand to use with the other! Or you'll need to make this detachable monitor a whole lot smaller and who wants to use that as their 'DeskTop' display?
The concept just doesn't make sense as people here are describing it. Sorry. A NEWTON would be usefull/was usefull for those situations where you couldn't sit and deploy a laptop for time/space/ergo reasons -- you had to interview someone quick, log some info for a spontaneous reason, couldn't sit or use a table in the environment you were in. NONE of those situations exist in the home.
Detachable Monitor Web pad = nearly useless.
<strong>Detachable Monitor Web pad = nearly useless.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I dissagree.
Though I also believe that a tablet as has been described by nearly everyone here has exactly the problems you've pointed out.
I would be interested in being able to?quickly and easily?pull my monitor off its base, walk over to a co?worker's desk, and show him a design.
If it were touchscreen, we could even to some simple mods, and if it had a stylus, then we could even draw right in illustrator, right on the screen(!).
It would also be nice to sit?right near the desk even?with the thing in my lap and surf.
The bulk of the work would be done with the thing in it's normal, upright position, but?and this is important?it'd be the same device no matter where it was, by virtue of being wireless, touchscreen and such.
Most of the time it'll be where my studio display is now: in front of my eyes.
But if it were detachable and touchscreen it then becomes that much more usefull.
This ViewSonic device may prove to be a good barometer with which we can measure the demand, but personally I think this concept will die a slow, expensive death. Only time will tell.
<strong>TO SPIFFY:
Yes the display would be mirrored! Yes indeed terminals many places in the home to control the "main" you have it correct and that would be a good thing indeed! But Spiffy, for you to turn around and say that fitting a fully functional computer into the "tablet" No NO NO that is not it at all. Tablet notebook fully functional computer yes, fine but that is a separate issue, and definately not needed to control the "main" system or "hub" system. In fact a notebook computer should eventually have a detachable tablet module that is wireless to the nootbook's base as well and is a tablet that fully functions as the interface to the notebook and doubles as a terminal for your home system. You could have several of these guys around so you don't have to carry the same one around or many users can have their own wireless terminal.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think you might have misunderstood....I was trying to make the point that people get the idea that the tablet would be targeted as a repacement for the notebook computer. What I wrote simply meant that we all know Steve would never do this until the technology was small enough and affordable enough to actually pull it off and be fully-functional as a standalone product. We're not near that point yet - maybe in 4 years. THEREFORE, people MUST begin to view any Apple tablet as a product separate from the realm of portable computing, and instead envision it in a home or design office setting. I agree with you wholeheartedly that it's about sharing a single system amongst several people and several locations. And it's a good way for Apple to make money from people who want to expand without buying another computer to be expensive and take up space
-S
[ 01-10-2002: Message edited by: SpiffyGuyC ]</p>
Who has anything that looks like the new iMac? Where is this computer other than on some industrial designer's "mock-up" page? Apple's products are here, now, and for the price, they've managed to squeeze some great capabilities into an incredible design.
Personally the idea of a pad computer is nice, though another poster makes a very valid point that you can type a lot faster than you can write. The problem with Microsoft's view is that it is one screen for one computer. I think that the best way to build such a device for the hardware manufacturer would be to build a "thin-client" based pad. That way they could sell a home "server"/hub, and multiple (much lower cost) pads which wirelessly link with the home network. It still wont eleminate the desktop comuputer, but it would have "geek-appeal"
My .02:
I loved my Newton. (The PILOTs are a rotten follow on device) I used it a lot - but gave it up because it didn't do everything I do with my desktop. I loved the portability, but it was too small for lots of uses - like web browsing.
I want a tablet. I want it for casual stuff. I want handwriting recognition on it. I don't need a keyboard on the john. I don't need to type a term paper anywhere but at my desktop. I would like to be able to read email and make small replies. I'd like to be able to do surfing and control my desktop from a remote location.
Think about it... aren't there periods of time where you use your computer and hardly ever touch the keyboard? Surfing the web doesn't really require much typing. Those are the times I'd like to be free to take my tablet elsewhere and still have access to my full desktop!
There was an article I read some time ago about what they were working on at PARC... and one of their big projects was thin clients and the ability for anyone to walk up to any desktop in the whole building and have their own private desktop 'pop' up on the desktop that was in front of them (it happened thru wearing a badge that identified them). I agree with them that this is the way I would eventually like to be able to work! I want my desktop EVERYWHERE I am.... I don't want to spend tons of time swapping and syncing between my many machines!!!!!!
I agree totally with Xhorxhi! For those of you who want a laptop to drag around - that is ok for you.... I don't want - nor do I need - a laptop on my lap - I need a tablet with wireless connection back to my desktop.
Thanks for the chance to put out my .02
Ariel
I thought this should be bumped in light of the new topic on MS wireless screen/tablet.
------------------------------------
© FERRO 2001-2002
As if I am not addicted to it enough already...
------------------------------------
© FERRO 2001-2002
[ 02-21-2002: Message edited by: FERRO ]</p>
<a href="http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103-816452.html"; target="_blank">Time to Rub out pen-tablet PC: ZDnet article</a>
"Unfortunately for Sony, the Pentium III-based computer was also expensive, ranging from $2,499 to $2,969. That's several hundred dollars more than other high-end Pentium III computers.
"You are paying a premium for the touch screen, and that is always an inhibitor," IDC analyst Roger Kay said, adding, "I really liked it. I really wanted one for my daughter."
Customer acclimation also inhibited sales, Viken said. People had to be taught how to use it. "
So much for "if you make great technology, people will buy it".
Chas
When they stop DOING the expected.
As for tablets and detachable peni, Sony just sent their ok priced ($2,500) tablet monitor/stylus/commputer thing to non production land.
<a href="http://computers.cnet.com/hardware/0-1018-404-4774062.html"; target="_blank">overview and CNET customer resonse to tablet</a>
<a href="http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/stories/story/0,10738,2695956,00.html"; target="_blank">why it sucks</a>
<a href="http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103-816452.html"; target="_blank">rubbed out</a>
1. the stylus has to be a lot more versatile -- which means not only more sensitive like a pencil (or I'd settle for a pen I suppose) but also more flexible with the software side -- where and how do you use it? It must be intuitive (like a pencil) and ubiquitous. I think stylus input will drastically change computer GUIs -- right now you can do stupid things like push buttons (just make them big enough so I can use my finger for the same thing, no opposable digits required), the UI isn't centered around a more precise tool at all.
2. The work surface must be altered as well to be either paper-like in its weight and size or incredibly large and with incredibly high resolution like a drafting board.
Basically, computers should be more like the good ol' fashioned stuff. Not as a mimicry or what would be the point? Take specific criteria of our most successful media (trace paper over papyrus, desk and easel over wall or floor, pencil or brush over marker) -- why they are so successful, and build towards that. Then improve them.
These days, computers are really good at one thing: copying stuff. So it doesn't make much of a difference if you do it with the keyboard mouse or stylus. When they get to be really good at other things like deducing stuff and asking the right questions, we'll get back to the input issue.
<strong>"Unfortunately for Sony, the Pentium III-based computer was also expensive, ranging from $2,499 to $2,969. That's several hundred dollars more than other high-end Pentium III computers.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hm. There are problems #1 and #2. The CPU needs to be PDA-oriented (i.e. ARM or Dragonball -- G3, maybe). Second, the price. Having it cost as much as a mid-range notebook is just braindead.
[quote]<strong>Customer acclimation also inhibited sales, Viken said. People had to be taught how to use it."</strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
What on earth is so different about it that one can't use it like a notebook, except for touch/pen input replacing a trackpad and keyboard!?
[quote]From the Cnet article:<strong> This desktop's special 15-inch, 1,024-by-768-pixel LCD doubles as a pen tablet, making it perfect for sketching in Adobe Illustrator or editing pixels in Adobe Photoshop.</strong><hr></blockquote>
[Screed takes out a notepad and a ruler] Hm, 13 inches of writing space. Compared to the 15in. screen plus the frame around it. Illustrator? Photoshop? A tablet is supposed to be a digital notepad.
It sounds as if Sony did a lot of engineering (ergo the price) but absolutely no human interface testing (ergo the market failure).
This isn't a failure of the tablet form-factor, but more of poor execution. Making a hybrid was just a bad move.
Screed
[ 02-22-2002: Message edited by: sCreeD ]</p>