I almost certain that Apple never intended to sell the iPhone at its stores in the first place. If you look at the canadian iphone page under "where to buy" it only says at Rogers or Fido stores. And it has since day one.
How does the unlock help when there is only a single carrier? You still have to purchase services in your local area, locked or unlocked.
In this case, there is only a single player in Canada.
If we purchase an unlocked iPhone, then we don't have to sign a 3 year agreement with Rogers/Fido. So there is somewhat of a benefit to buying an unlocked phone.
Is it possible that the Apple Store isn't selling the phones b/c they couldn't come up with a process to sign new customers into a Rogers phone contract?
It seems logical that, since the sign-up process is complicated, the Apple stores in Canada may have not been able to figure out how to make the sign-up process a seamless experience.
Also, maybe this was part of the contract agreement between Rogers and Apple (at least for the first little while?) - if the Apple store sells the phone, Rogers does not get the revenue from the handset sale. I realize that the Apple store will want to sell the handsets, but my guess is that this was possibly part of the launch strategy.
Thoughts?
Quote:
Originally Posted by diazhill
Agreed. The Apple.ca site has never indicated that iPhones would be available for sale at Apple stores in Canada. When you click on 'Where to Buy', Apple.ca has always referred you to either the Rogers or Fido's websites.
Exactly. Further, Tod Maffin from CBC indicates at his blog (http://todmaffin.com/iphonerumours) that he spoke personally with the Apple PR rep in Canada two weeks ago, who stated clearly that Apple Retail Stores would not be selling the iPhone.
This seems to be the case in most other non-U.S. countries also - at least those ones where the iPhone v1 was never available.
As noted above, I'm assuming that it's the same issue... Getting their computer systems linked up to handle the processing and activation issues. Remember that Apple and AT&T worked this stuff out last year for the sake of the iTunes-based sign-up, long before the first-gen iPhone was even released, so it should be a no-brained for Apple Store employees to walk through a process that is likely identical to what end-users went through with the original iPhone when they got it home. iTunes and AT&T are already tied together.
If Apple really cared, they simply would have sold all the iPhones as unlocked devices everywhere, at the same time. The decision to create exclusivity contracts with particular carriers got them into the mess, and now they have to deal with it.
That would make little difference in Canada - Rogers is the only company in Canada with a network compatible with the iPhone. New players are expected in Canada in 2009 however.
Apple may seem like the a**hole here, but after my experience as both a customer and employee at Carphone Warehouse, the telecom companies that are now going to be the major and largest resellers of Apple products (mostly the iPhone 3G), are very different from Apple.
1. Some do not hold the same culture, attitude.
2. Very few understand the Mac
3. Many of these telcos see the iPhone as just a way to make more and more money and more and more commission.
It's also possible that Apple simply believes their inventory can be put to better use in areas of high demand. The demand in Canada probably won't be so high with these high priced plans.
Yes you would. Rogers is the only carrier supporting the iPhone. Selling unlocked phones only benefits if you can take the phone to another carrier.
I think the point they are trying to make is that if the phone were unlocked I could simply drop my existing SIM in on my current plan and I'm all set. Add on a $30/30 data plan if I don't have one already.
If next year when the market (presumably) opens up there's much better rates and plans with a new carrier off I go, no ECF.
If you are interested in particularly the Retail approach Telcos are doing compared to what we are used to with Apple and the training Apple Premium and Authorized Resellers go through, you can have a look at this, regarding why I believe BestBuy/ Carphone Warehouse may not be Apple UK/ Europe's preferred way of distributing the iPhone 3G.
If this were just the original report of low initial supplies to Rogers stores, then I might agree with you. But to not be selling them at all in their own Apple Stores? That, I think, is a pretty clear message. Store employees will be explaining to disappointed customers all day long (all weekend long) that they have no iPhones to sell them.
I tend to agree. Even if people didn't want to buy one the iPhone units on display are certainly a draw for increased foot traffic, which may result in the sale of an iPod or Mac. I wonder if Rogers will bend on this?
The story here is that Canada will be the only country in the world that does not have people lined up outside of the Apple store. That in itself is news. For every Apple store lineup story that is out there, there will be a mention, be it on CNN, BBC or others that the only country in the world that is not is Canada. T And they will mention the high data rates as the cause. Looks like Rogers is going to be on Bloomberg and CNN business this week, alot. They are probably fielding calls right now. This is a PR nightmare for Rogers, They won't see it as such, being Rogers, they're arrogant pricks, negative billing anyone, but they are going to feel the heat for a while.
I don't think it will change them one bit. Until the government steps in. It's a Canadian thing. There will be a commission set up.
If we purchase an unlocked iPhone, then we don't have to sign a 3 year agreement with Rogers/Fido. So there is somewhat of a benefit to buying an unlocked phone.
Unlocked is not the same as without contract. If you pay the full retail price for the iPhone (8GB for $599 and 16GB for $699 in the US) then it's still locked to AT&T, but there is no contract required. Unlocked means you can use it among any carrier.
I had an unlocked iPhone on AT&T but I was still tied to their contract. I unlocked it for international use, but was still required to fullfil my contract.
As for buying an iPhone 3G for the full retail price to avoid a contract and then unlocking it yourself, you are still tied to Rogers in Canada as there is no other major carrier that uses GSM. I don't think the GSM-based MVNOs will be any help for the data portion, but I'm not sure.
• Unlocked — Can be used with any carrier that uses the same cellular standard
• Contract free —*No obligation to maintain service.
Your last sentence is where my "reasoning" is coming from. I, as a consumer who works in a physical commodity industry, cannot see the justness of the prices being placed on a digital "invisible" commodity.
Did you intend to illustrate so effectively why your reasoning is false?
You work in a physical commodity industry, so the concept of something like a phone network is clearly difficult to wrap your head around.
I have to agree. This to me seems like more of Apple's tactics of making itself look good at the expense of its partners. Apple fights the music labels to keep iTunes Store prices the same because it might hurt iTunes sales and then ultimately iPod sales, but Apple plays it off as them standing up against the greedy music execs (and for whatever reason the press laps up Apple's interpretation of events).
If Apple gave a crap about the rates, wouldn't they have put that in the contract with Rogers in the first place (as someone commented about yesterday's story about Apple sanctioning Rogers)? Instead, as you said, Doxxic, Apple realizes that iPhone sales in Canada could easily fall below their initial expectations and thus diverts those units to areas where they are expected to sell with ease. Does it get reported as Apple making a smart business decision? No, it's reported as Apple taking a stand against the greedy cell phone carriers.
Once again the Jobs Reality Distortion Field, hard at work.
Apple unlike Rogers are very good at making the spin work for them,
Robbers comes out and says, "Sure we could give you unlimited, but it'll cost you", now people are already ticked at the price of the plans, whats Rogers answer to that? It would cost you even more...
Give me a break. No wonder everyone hates them. Bell maybe the equally evil twin when it comes to Cell Service, but they were smart enough to say.. OK he's a deal for you.. unlimited for 10 bucks...(which incidentally used to be 7)
I just travelled across the US, there a good number of GSM providers, I think in my trip the SW I ran into 3 or 4 providers, AT&T and T-Mobile being just 2 of them
what are the other carriers charging for say blackberry, instinct, etc data and voice plans, how much more is roger's compared to the rest of canada's carriers?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yash Keough
Bell and Telus have $10 and $15 unlimited smartphone plans I believe (don't know which exactly). Either way, they have unlimited in a very cheap plan (just over $40 with all included) when Rogers doesn't even offer unlimited in its high end plans.
Bell has had $7 unlimited data with the HTC Touch (with any voice plan), and announced $10 unlimited (any voice) for the Instinct. Data plans for their smartphone offerings with phyical qwerty keyboards are much more expensive (higher than the Rogers iPhone).
Telus is a bit more pricey ($15 unlimited email, $30 unlimited data), but those prices apply to ALL their phones, and they too have announced the Instinct for sometime this August.
Telus will also be carrying the new HTC Diamond for that price.
Of course, both are CDMA, so the phones aren't much use outside North America, but that's WAY cheaper than the iPhone.
If we purchase an unlocked iPhone, then we don't have to sign a 3 year agreement with Rogers/Fido. So there is somewhat of a benefit to buying an unlocked phone.
Not sure I am understanding the above. The issue at hand is that it is expensive to have a service plan in Canada with the iPhone, and apple appears to have said that this is not OK. How does an unlocked phone change that, would you be able to use the phone w/o a plan? Maybe with your existing plan?
As someone that was been anxiously awaiting the iPhones arrival in Canada during the past 1.5 years (why I was anxious I don't know, it's a phone!) I am now looking at alternatives to the iphone like a cell phone and an iPod Touch. I'm just not into spending $100 total each month and NOT getting unlimited data. I can live with 150 weekday minutes, but the data cap is a killer. I don't want to have to think about whether I'm over the limit or not. I don't want to count MB's! I was all signed up to buy one the day of release, but not now.
Just curious... what are AT&T's roaming rates in Canada like? It would be funny if I could buy a US iPhone and give my money to AT&T while using the phone and living in Canada for the same price as Rogers is gouging me for. That would be a sweet kick of sand in Rogers face!
Comments
How does the unlock help when there is only a single carrier? You still have to purchase services in your local area, locked or unlocked.
In this case, there is only a single player in Canada.
If we purchase an unlocked iPhone, then we don't have to sign a 3 year agreement with Rogers/Fido. So there is somewhat of a benefit to buying an unlocked phone.
Question for everyone:
Is it possible that the Apple Store isn't selling the phones b/c they couldn't come up with a process to sign new customers into a Rogers phone contract?
It seems logical that, since the sign-up process is complicated, the Apple stores in Canada may have not been able to figure out how to make the sign-up process a seamless experience.
Also, maybe this was part of the contract agreement between Rogers and Apple (at least for the first little while?) - if the Apple store sells the phone, Rogers does not get the revenue from the handset sale. I realize that the Apple store will want to sell the handsets, but my guess is that this was possibly part of the launch strategy.
Thoughts?
Agreed. The Apple.ca site has never indicated that iPhones would be available for sale at Apple stores in Canada. When you click on 'Where to Buy', Apple.ca has always referred you to either the Rogers or Fido's websites.
Exactly. Further, Tod Maffin from CBC indicates at his blog (http://todmaffin.com/iphonerumours) that he spoke personally with the Apple PR rep in Canada two weeks ago, who stated clearly that Apple Retail Stores would not be selling the iPhone.
This seems to be the case in most other non-U.S. countries also - at least those ones where the iPhone v1 was never available.
As noted above, I'm assuming that it's the same issue... Getting their computer systems linked up to handle the processing and activation issues. Remember that Apple and AT&T worked this stuff out last year for the sake of the iTunes-based sign-up, long before the first-gen iPhone was even released, so it should be a no-brained for Apple Store employees to walk through a process that is likely identical to what end-users went through with the original iPhone when they got it home. iTunes and AT&T are already tied together.
If Apple really cared, they simply would have sold all the iPhones as unlocked devices everywhere, at the same time. The decision to create exclusivity contracts with particular carriers got them into the mess, and now they have to deal with it.
That would make little difference in Canada - Rogers is the only company in Canada with a network compatible with the iPhone. New players are expected in Canada in 2009 however.
1. Some do not hold the same culture, attitude.
2. Very few understand the Mac
3. Many of these telcos see the iPhone as just a way to make more and more money and more and more commission.
If we purchase an unlocked iPhone, then we don't have to sign a 3 year agreement with Rogers/Fido.
Yes you would. Rogers is the only carrier supporting the iPhone. Selling unlocked phones only benefits if you can take the phone to another carrier.
'Rogers' and 'Fido' sound like dogs' names to me.
Rogers not so much. Fido very much so. (that's the point.. woof!)
http://www.fido.ca
Yes you would. Rogers is the only carrier supporting the iPhone. Selling unlocked phones only benefits if you can take the phone to another carrier.
I think the point they are trying to make is that if the phone were unlocked I could simply drop my existing SIM in on my current plan and I'm all set. Add on a $30/30 data plan if I don't have one already.
If next year when the market (presumably) opens up there's much better rates and plans with a new carrier off I go, no ECF.
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=88619
If this were just the original report of low initial supplies to Rogers stores, then I might agree with you. But to not be selling them at all in their own Apple Stores? That, I think, is a pretty clear message. Store employees will be explaining to disappointed customers all day long (all weekend long) that they have no iPhones to sell them.
I tend to agree. Even if people didn't want to buy one the iPhone units on display are certainly a draw for increased foot traffic, which may result in the sale of an iPod or Mac. I wonder if Rogers will bend on this?
I don't think it will change them one bit. Until the government steps in. It's a Canadian thing. There will be a commission set up.
If we purchase an unlocked iPhone, then we don't have to sign a 3 year agreement with Rogers/Fido. So there is somewhat of a benefit to buying an unlocked phone.
Unlocked is not the same as without contract. If you pay the full retail price for the iPhone (8GB for $599 and 16GB for $699 in the US) then it's still locked to AT&T, but there is no contract required. Unlocked means you can use it among any carrier.
I had an unlocked iPhone on AT&T but I was still tied to their contract. I unlocked it for international use, but was still required to fullfil my contract.
As for buying an iPhone 3G for the full retail price to avoid a contract and then unlocking it yourself, you are still tied to Rogers in Canada as there is no other major carrier that uses GSM. I don't think the GSM-based MVNOs will be any help for the data portion, but I'm not sure.
Your last sentence is where my "reasoning" is coming from. I, as a consumer who works in a physical commodity industry, cannot see the justness of the prices being placed on a digital "invisible" commodity.
Did you intend to illustrate so effectively why your reasoning is false?
You work in a physical commodity industry, so the concept of something like a phone network is clearly difficult to wrap your head around.
I have to agree. This to me seems like more of Apple's tactics of making itself look good at the expense of its partners. Apple fights the music labels to keep iTunes Store prices the same because it might hurt iTunes sales and then ultimately iPod sales, but Apple plays it off as them standing up against the greedy music execs (and for whatever reason the press laps up Apple's interpretation of events).
If Apple gave a crap about the rates, wouldn't they have put that in the contract with Rogers in the first place (as someone commented about yesterday's story about Apple sanctioning Rogers)? Instead, as you said, Doxxic, Apple realizes that iPhone sales in Canada could easily fall below their initial expectations and thus diverts those units to areas where they are expected to sell with ease. Does it get reported as Apple making a smart business decision? No, it's reported as Apple taking a stand against the greedy cell phone carriers.
Once again the Jobs Reality Distortion Field, hard at work.
Apple unlike Rogers are very good at making the spin work for them,
Robbers comes out and says, "Sure we could give you unlimited, but it'll cost you", now people are already ticked at the price of the plans, whats Rogers answer to that? It would cost you even more...
Give me a break. No wonder everyone hates them. Bell maybe the equally evil twin when it comes to Cell Service, but they were smart enough to say.. OK he's a deal for you.. unlimited for 10 bucks...(which incidentally used to be 7)
Who comes out smelling like a Rose now?
i think they are just being greedy
Well put!
what are the other carriers charging for say blackberry, instinct, etc data and voice plans, how much more is roger's compared to the rest of canada's carriers?
Bell and Telus have $10 and $15 unlimited smartphone plans I believe (don't know which exactly). Either way, they have unlimited in a very cheap plan (just over $40 with all included) when Rogers doesn't even offer unlimited in its high end plans.
Bell has had $7 unlimited data with the HTC Touch (with any voice plan), and announced $10 unlimited (any voice) for the Instinct. Data plans for their smartphone offerings with phyical qwerty keyboards are much more expensive (higher than the Rogers iPhone).
Telus is a bit more pricey ($15 unlimited email, $30 unlimited data), but those prices apply to ALL their phones, and they too have announced the Instinct for sometime this August.
Telus will also be carrying the new HTC Diamond for that price.
Of course, both are CDMA, so the phones aren't much use outside North America, but that's WAY cheaper than the iPhone.
http://www.rgbfilter.com/?p=86
If we purchase an unlocked iPhone, then we don't have to sign a 3 year agreement with Rogers/Fido. So there is somewhat of a benefit to buying an unlocked phone.
Not sure I am understanding the above. The issue at hand is that it is expensive to have a service plan in Canada with the iPhone, and apple appears to have said that this is not OK. How does an unlocked phone change that, would you be able to use the phone w/o a plan? Maybe with your existing plan?
As someone that was been anxiously awaiting the iPhones arrival in Canada during the past 1.5 years (why I was anxious I don't know, it's a phone!) I am now looking at alternatives to the iphone like a cell phone and an iPod Touch. I'm just not into spending $100 total each month and NOT getting unlimited data. I can live with 150 weekday minutes, but the data cap is a killer. I don't want to have to think about whether I'm over the limit or not. I don't want to count MB's! I was all signed up to buy one the day of release, but not now.
Just curious... what are AT&T's roaming rates in Canada like? It would be funny if I could buy a US iPhone and give my money to AT&T while using the phone and living in Canada for the same price as Rogers is gouging me for. That would be a sweet kick of sand in Rogers face!
They have a 5GB International Data Roaming plan