what? does that tell me your laughing at me or with me?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland
A small bit of an over-simplification of my comment.
you said
Quote:
Oh shut up. If you don't think Apple is eyeing this space, then, in my opinion you are either stupid or naive, or you just can't see the bigger picture for where Apple are going.
now either you mean to imply that people who don't agree with you are stupid, or you don't.
how simple does it get?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland
I mentioned that specifically for that small few who are "afraid" of technology. Not the average person. Most of the average would like the easy-of-use and the simple, beautiful flowing user-interface Apple would no doubt do. All TV interfaces are let's face it; ugly. This is a good starting point for Apple. And you say TV's are easy to set-up, and are only done once? Well computers are only set-up once (within reason) nowadays too. Apple could not only make it simple, but welcoming. And they could include internet and iTunes integration with some sort of subscription service, so users would not even need a set-top-box, or need to get someone to set that up. Thus, even more simplicity. There is in fact big room for improvement in this space, just most have accepted the usual "hassles" associated with this thing. The more tech savvy don't see the hassles, but be sure, lots of people do.
{my highlights}
so for the small few.. well then where are the sales? {BTW I can hear steve asking you that, in the a very unsympathetic tone}
a TV interface shouldn't be SEEN one changes channel, up or down, or directly inputs a number what is there to SEE?
unless you mean the EPG?
if so I ask again WHICH ONE?
Internet on TV sucks balls, the rez either too small, or the screen too far away.
iTunes integration, mmm, but doesn't iTunes run on the computer? unless you mean an integrated aTV included on the TV? in which case why Limit the choice? I currently have a 26" TV and a 50" I've promised myself nothing smaller in the future, and my next TV will likely be 60" ... now, given Apple reluctance to provide users choice with their laptop or desktop computers regarding screen size, what makes you think Apple will do 60" TVs? in which case *I* will not be buying one.
Apple rely on computer users upgrading every 4/5 years, and ONLY Apple make Macs, how often do people upgrade their TVs? and how many OTHER companies make TVS and have been doing so for years?
again, I hear Steve asking these questions, but I don't hear an answer he likes.
RE SETUP The issue I see with set up every time I do it, apart from the "one off" set up of channel acquisition, is the Physical connection, people, the few people who are left, the people who are not geeks who want this easy one off set up, generally get someone else to do it for them, older people and less tech savvy get someone to do the physical connection because their TV is too heavy to move, or they don't know what the different sockets are for.
but then you are talking about a NEW TV, aren't you, well the guys who delivered my 50" set it up! right there and then, DESPITE me being somewhat Tech savvy.
so then, I hear you saying it would be for smaller TVs that people lift and carry to their cars.. what? like a 42" 32" ? I still get calls to set those up... ONCE.
I've crawled around to many lofts and threaded too many downleads through too many conduits to believe for one moment that you have anything to offer the "average user" when you offer them the "once off" simplicity of set up... when all they will do is ask someone else to do it, or as you said earlier, ring apple support.
now If you could get Apple to design software that connected masthead amplifiers without leaving the van, then you might have some takers, but they sure wouldn't be "average users"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland
is why I can appear pissed off when I reply to you. You're a smart ass*.
so??? other people are stupid but I get called a smart ass!?
Channel up/down vol up/down and on and off, seriously W+HOW do you build a better mouse trap.. look at the Apple remote, or were Apple just being smart asses when that was designed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland
iTunes.
Which is why I said BROADCAST, what digital TV standard from which country are Apple going to choose to let their TV receive?
if they ONLY allow iTunes integration then believe me the "average user" won't buy, but If they did they would look for a local set top box solution, which for me would be freeview.. which will need set up anyway TA DAAA! now where did that easy set up you promised get me?
paid for or subscription internet broadcasting MAY be the future, but then so was 3G, but Apple didn't launch with 3G and "average" people are only going to buy what they are sure of, and that happens to be broadcast TV.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland
Subscription based TV service. You might be surprised how the funds could add up for them, if they implemented it the right way, and charged the "right price". Continuous, and monthly. And if done right, they would get a lot more adopters than they ever would selling shows individually.
*See: smart ass.
Steve dosent like the idea of subscription anything, he's a "buy it, own it" kinda guy.
oh yeah, and the likes of NBC BBC RTE and FOX would all want their cut. oh, not to mention the ISPs!
Apple would have to offer the TV itself at a margin WAAY lower than they are used to, would have to take pennies from a subscription that the studios might not even want, and if they (studios) did actually go for it, be sure they would push for an even bigger cut than they are already getting.
WHERES THE PROFIT?
make minimal pennies from the subs, with maximum head pain in dealing witht the studios
make next to nothing from the hardware.
I don't see it.
and nothing you have put forward is actually WORKABLE in the real world. interesting yes, cool to dream about yes. but profitable and workable NO.
What's more, this one be one of the few living rooms where you'd have just one remote... OUT-OF-THE-BOX.
No funky universal remotes to be bought, set-up or programmed. Just one TV, and an elegant, simple remote. Though probably not the remote that comes with the existing Apple TV. Probably a TV-edition remote.
Thats what you are looking for REALLY isnt it. a remote solution. {tell the truth now!}
But I have a surround amp, how does my Apple remote control that? so I need a remote to control my amp.
and I use my PS3 to watch BD, so, ahh, I guess I also need a remote for that also.
Thats what you are looking for REALLY isnt it. a remote solution. {tell the truth now!}
No I'm not simply looking for another universal remote. I'm looking for an Apple Television. And like I said, I believe it's coming. When? I'm not exactly sure, but it's on their list. I'm confident of that. And yes I've no proof. But you don't need proof for certain things with are pretty certain. At least to me. And yes, I know your view on the matter.
But I can see Apple branded bottled water, I have a vision, no-one else can see it yet, but I know Apple have GOT to be working on it, despite the lack of proof, you just don't neet proof when it is so clear, at least to me.
I mean come ONN Steve drinks bottled water at EVERY SINGLE Keynote!
I like you list of reasons why Apple would hardly get on the TV displays market.
Unfortunately some people "wish things" that they would personally love to have rather than take the time to look at the feasibility and the economics involved in certain market segments.
I do hope Apple will invest R&D on the AppleTV box in order to make it more interesting and appealing to the mass market. That's where I think would be interesting to see Apple use their knowledge and expertise to create software and hardware to simplify our life when comes to watch tv and rent movies, etc.
The display itself, it's just fine. No reason to tweak that. Many brands out there are amazing and seriously, why change it?
The profit margins for such segment is so thin. Recently Pioneer that makes one of the best plasma displays, outsourced and restructured the production of their screens "glasses" to Panasonic in order to stay alive in this business, due so many years on red.
Yeah, phones needed improvement, TVs don't really need much improvement at all as their function is basic.
Would that it were so. My expensive 40" Samsung and my Comcast cable box have awful UIs and barely-acceptable user experiences. The cable box is particularly bad. It reminds me of early cell phones, an area Apple has just revolutionized in user experience terms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by krispie
OK, I'll take a nibble on this one:
In what way would this be a TRANSITION?
From an existing product, i.e. Cinema Displays.
FWIW, my personal view is that Ireland is wrong. I do not believe Apple will move into this space, but I wish they would.
Now what do you think of my Apple Branded water idea? one things for sure, its not a dead horse idea.... yet.
--
Ireland/Brendan
I seem to remember you saying/typing that you had spent a lot of time looking at TV before you bought one. and went plasma.
what size? what price range (doesn't have to be exact Euros)
and then.. Whats actually WRONG with it that makes you wanna upgrade to a potential Apple branded one?
I don't get that either, if I have just dropped a fair old sum on a new TV that I researched WELL before hand, I wouldn;t be so keen to upgrade at all. either the money would be better spend elsewhere in the house or money would be no object.. are you a "money no object" type?
in which case, there are lots of solutions waiting on your hard earned
---
Whatever the product Transition is I'm looking forward to it, but its pretty much a new iPod
Would that it were so. My expensive 40" Samsung and my Comcast cable box have awful UIs and barely-acceptable user experiences. The cable box is particularly bad. It reminds me of early cell phones, an area Apple has just revolutionized in user experience terms.
Well...TiVO Comcast should be slightly better but not much. Comcast holds all the cards and heck, they aren't even using TiVO hardware but the TiVO UI implemented in Java and slapped aboard the Moto HD DVR.
There's no way in hell Comcast would give Apple even that much access given it is a competitor unless Apple revenue shares iTunes movie rental with Comcast. That'll be a cold day in hell. Especially given the 5C (DTCP) games Comcast/Cox/etc played and effectively killing DVR via FireWire.
I don't see Apple writing a FrontRow UI for OCAP based DVRs. Why the hell would they? And they sure aren't likely to make an OCAP based DVR instead of an OSX based one.
I don't see Comcast letting any foreign DVRs work well on Comcast. CableCard or no. And they aren't going to be buying aTVs to install vice Moto and SA boxes and currently Vista is the only OS approved for CableCard use and you have to buy it setup that way with firmware lockdowns.
Would that it were so. My expensive 40" Samsung and my Comcast cable box have awful UIs and barely-acceptable user experiences. The cable box is particularly bad. It reminds me of early cell phones, an area Apple has just revolutionized in user experience terms.
Exactly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jouster
FWIW, my personal view is that Ireland is wrong. I do not believe Apple will move into this space, but I wish they would.
Comments
No
what? does that tell me your laughing at me or with me?
A small bit of an over-simplification of my comment.
you said
Oh shut up. If you don't think Apple is eyeing this space, then, in my opinion you are either stupid or naive, or you just can't see the bigger picture for where Apple are going.
now either you mean to imply that people who don't agree with you are stupid, or you don't.
how simple does it get?
I mentioned that specifically for that small few who are "afraid" of technology. Not the average person. Most of the average would like the easy-of-use and the simple, beautiful flowing user-interface Apple would no doubt do. All TV interfaces are let's face it; ugly. This is a good starting point for Apple. And you say TV's are easy to set-up, and are only done once? Well computers are only set-up once (within reason) nowadays too. Apple could not only make it simple, but welcoming. And they could include internet and iTunes integration with some sort of subscription service, so users would not even need a set-top-box, or need to get someone to set that up. Thus, even more simplicity. There is in fact big room for improvement in this space, just most have accepted the usual "hassles" associated with this thing. The more tech savvy don't see the hassles, but be sure, lots of people do.
{my highlights}
so for the small few.. well then where are the sales? {BTW I can hear steve asking you that, in the a very unsympathetic tone}
a TV interface shouldn't be SEEN one changes channel, up or down, or directly inputs a number what is there to SEE?
unless you mean the EPG?
if so I ask again WHICH ONE?
Internet on TV sucks balls, the rez either too small, or the screen too far away.
iTunes integration, mmm, but doesn't iTunes run on the computer? unless you mean an integrated aTV included on the TV? in which case why Limit the choice? I currently have a 26" TV and a 50" I've promised myself nothing smaller in the future, and my next TV will likely be 60" ... now, given Apple reluctance to provide users choice with their laptop or desktop computers regarding screen size, what makes you think Apple will do 60" TVs? in which case *I* will not be buying one.
Apple rely on computer users upgrading every 4/5 years, and ONLY Apple make Macs, how often do people upgrade their TVs? and how many OTHER companies make TVS and have been doing so for years?
again, I hear Steve asking these questions, but I don't hear an answer he likes.
RE SETUP The issue I see with set up every time I do it, apart from the "one off" set up of channel acquisition, is the Physical connection, people, the few people who are left, the people who are not geeks who want this easy one off set up, generally get someone else to do it for them, older people and less tech savvy get someone to do the physical connection because their TV is too heavy to move, or they don't know what the different sockets are for.
but then you are talking about a NEW TV, aren't you, well the guys who delivered my 50" set it up! right there and then, DESPITE me being somewhat Tech savvy.
so then, I hear you saying it would be for smaller TVs that people lift and carry to their cars.. what? like a 42" 32" ? I still get calls to set those up... ONCE.
I've crawled around to many lofts and threaded too many downleads through too many conduits to believe for one moment that you have anything to offer the "average user" when you offer them the "once off" simplicity of set up... when all they will do is ask someone else to do it, or as you said earlier, ring apple support.
now If you could get Apple to design software that connected masthead amplifiers without leaving the van, then you might have some takers, but they sure wouldn't be "average users"
is why I can appear pissed off when I reply to you. You're a smart ass*.
so??? other people are stupid but I get called a smart ass!?
Channel up/down vol up/down and on and off, seriously W+HOW do you build a better mouse trap.. look at the Apple remote, or were Apple just being smart asses when that was designed?
iTunes.
Which is why I said BROADCAST, what digital TV standard from which country are Apple going to choose to let their TV receive?
if they ONLY allow iTunes integration then believe me the "average user" won't buy, but If they did they would look for a local set top box solution, which for me would be freeview.. which will need set up anyway TA DAAA! now where did that easy set up you promised get me?
paid for or subscription internet broadcasting MAY be the future, but then so was 3G, but Apple didn't launch with 3G and "average" people are only going to buy what they are sure of, and that happens to be broadcast TV.
Subscription based TV service. You might be surprised how the funds could add up for them, if they implemented it the right way, and charged the "right price". Continuous, and monthly. And if done right, they would get a lot more adopters than they ever would selling shows individually.
*See: smart ass.
Steve dosent like the idea of subscription anything, he's a "buy it, own it" kinda guy.
oh yeah, and the likes of NBC BBC RTE and FOX would all want their cut. oh, not to mention the ISPs!
Apple would have to offer the TV itself at a margin WAAY lower than they are used to, would have to take pennies from a subscription that the studios might not even want, and if they (studios) did actually go for it, be sure they would push for an even bigger cut than they are already getting.
WHERES THE PROFIT?
make minimal pennies from the subs, with maximum head pain in dealing witht the studios
make next to nothing from the hardware.
I don't see it.
and nothing you have put forward is actually WORKABLE in the real world. interesting yes, cool to dream about yes. but profitable and workable NO.
Sorry.
What's more, this one be one of the few living rooms where you'd have just one remote... OUT-OF-THE-BOX.
No funky universal remotes to be bought, set-up or programmed. Just one TV, and an elegant, simple remote. Though probably not the remote that comes with the existing Apple TV. Probably a TV-edition remote.
Thats what you are looking for REALLY isnt it. a remote solution. {tell the truth now!}
But I have a surround amp, how does my Apple remote control that? so I need a remote to control my amp.
and I use my PS3 to watch BD, so, ahh, I guess I also need a remote for that also.
my my, we have 3 already, so, same old problem.
Walter, thanks man. I am glad some people here have common sense.
I do? erm. I mean I DO..
oh yes, Monkey buckets of the stuff
Thats what you are looking for REALLY isnt it. a remote solution. {tell the truth now!}
No I'm not simply looking for another universal remote. I'm looking for an Apple Television. And like I said, I believe it's coming. When? I'm not exactly sure, but it's on their list. I'm confident of that. And yes I've no proof. But you don't need proof for certain things with are pretty certain. At least to me. And yes, I know your view on the matter.
does he also have running water?
you think Apple would get into the bottled water racket?
..Actually, thats not a bad idea! after all I've been a water user all my life.
Apple is a technology company. You're sarcasm is sad.
Steve dosent like the idea of subscription anything, he's a "buy it, own it" kinda guy.
Like movie rentals is it? Or video on the iPod. Good one.
I mean come ONN Steve drinks bottled water at EVERY SINGLE Keynote!
He IS over 70% water !!
jeez, and I said their was no proof!
I do? erm. I mean I DO..
oh yes, Monkey buckets of the stuff
Walter,
yes, you do man.
I like you list of reasons why Apple would hardly get on the TV displays market.
Unfortunately some people "wish things" that they would personally love to have rather than take the time to look at the feasibility and the economics involved in certain market segments.
I do hope Apple will invest R&D on the AppleTV box in order to make it more interesting and appealing to the mass market. That's where I think would be interesting to see Apple use their knowledge and expertise to create software and hardware to simplify our life when comes to watch tv and rent movies, etc.
The display itself, it's just fine. No reason to tweak that. Many brands out there are amazing and seriously, why change it?
The profit margins for such segment is so thin. Recently Pioneer that makes one of the best plasma displays, outsourced and restructured the production of their screens "glasses" to Panasonic in order to stay alive in this business, due so many years on red.
So, there it is.
Let's keep beating that dead horse!
Yeah, phones needed improvement, TVs don't really need much improvement at all as their function is basic.
Would that it were so. My expensive 40" Samsung and my Comcast cable box have awful UIs and barely-acceptable user experiences. The cable box is particularly bad. It reminds me of early cell phones, an area Apple has just revolutionized in user experience terms.
OK, I'll take a nibble on this one:
In what way would this be a TRANSITION?
From an existing product, i.e. Cinema Displays.
FWIW, my personal view is that Ireland is wrong. I do not believe Apple will move into this space, but I wish they would.
Now what do you think of my Apple Branded water idea? one things for sure, its not a dead horse idea.... yet.
--
Ireland/Brendan
I seem to remember you saying/typing that you had spent a lot of time looking at TV before you bought one. and went plasma.
what size? what price range (doesn't have to be exact Euros)
and then.. Whats actually WRONG with it that makes you wanna upgrade to a potential Apple branded one?
I don't get that either, if I have just dropped a fair old sum on a new TV that I researched WELL before hand, I wouldn;t be so keen to upgrade at all. either the money would be better spend elsewhere in the house or money would be no object.. are you a "money no object" type?
in which case, there are lots of solutions waiting on your hard earned
---
Whatever the product Transition is I'm looking forward to it, but its pretty much a new iPod
Would that it were so. My expensive 40" Samsung and my Comcast cable box have awful UIs and barely-acceptable user experiences. The cable box is particularly bad. It reminds me of early cell phones, an area Apple has just revolutionized in user experience terms.
Well...TiVO Comcast should be slightly better but not much. Comcast holds all the cards and heck, they aren't even using TiVO hardware but the TiVO UI implemented in Java and slapped aboard the Moto HD DVR.
There's no way in hell Comcast would give Apple even that much access given it is a competitor unless Apple revenue shares iTunes movie rental with Comcast. That'll be a cold day in hell. Especially given the 5C (DTCP) games Comcast/Cox/etc played and effectively killing DVR via FireWire.
I don't see Apple writing a FrontRow UI for OCAP based DVRs. Why the hell would they? And they sure aren't likely to make an OCAP based DVR instead of an OSX based one.
I don't see Comcast letting any foreign DVRs work well on Comcast. CableCard or no. And they aren't going to be buying aTVs to install vice Moto and SA boxes and currently Vista is the only OS approved for CableCard use and you have to buy it setup that way with firmware lockdowns.
So Apple HDTV = Pipe Dream.
Now what do you think of my Apple Branded water idea?
I am thirsty already
Now what do you think of my Apple Branded water idea?
It's terrible. Like you sense of sarcasm.
I am thirsty already
I believe you can drink from Walter then.
Would that it were so. My expensive 40" Samsung and my Comcast cable box have awful UIs and barely-acceptable user experiences. The cable box is particularly bad. It reminds me of early cell phones, an area Apple has just revolutionized in user experience terms.
Exactly.
FWIW, my personal view is that Ireland is wrong. I do not believe Apple will move into this space, but I wish they would.
That's interesting.
don't get mad and start cursing people Ireland.
Life is beautiful.
I would love to
You do know what I meant right? I.E. Not from his bottled water
I like being sarcastic.
Let's keep beating the dead horse man....
yes, I do,
I like being sarcastic.
Let's keep beating the dead horse man....
Well you may as well, after your finished beating Walter's Bishop that is.
I would love to
don't get mad and start cursing people Ireland.
Life is beautiful.
And so is Walter right