Apple poised for special event this September

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  • Reply 181 of 311
    wobegonwobegon Posts: 764member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    I hope they will have a device like an expanded Newton, but that would be a different product entirely.



    Melgross, I'd like to introduce you to the new, expanded Newton:





  • Reply 182 of 311
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,001member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wobegon View Post


    Really, they could have gotten a completely flat, rounded rectangle down to an overall thickness of 0.16"?



    That's not what I meant. I meant the thickness of the computer would have been the same, not the very edges.



    Quote:

    Sorry, but I was being fair. The iPhone 3G's thickness is just a tiny be thicker at its thickest point, but overall it's thinner than the original thanks to its new tapered edges. It also feels better in the hand because of this contoured shape, which fits the natural curve of the palm.



    Think about the Zune's rather squared corners compared to the iPod classic's more rounded corners. We both know which one more easily slips into a pocket and feels better to hold: the iPod. The iPhone 3G feels even better than the iPod classic thanks to tapered edges and makes it seem smaller than the original rounded-rectangle iPhone.



    Yeah, they have rounded it off a bit, but the pictures do make it look more than it really is. It was only by about an eighth of an inch.



    Quote:

    No, the tapered edges really aren't what makes the screen seem smaller. It's more an issue with the size of the bezel around the screen. Likewise, they're not necessarily using more material, but simply spreading the aluminum out more in the x and y planes, while the z plane, a.k.a. thickness, is decreased. One way to conceptualize this is to visualize the current MacBook Pro and then running said MacBook Pro over with a steam roller. What do you get? Same amount of aluminum, but it's all spread out and overall, it's thinner.



    Again, I should have been more clear. When I earlier said that Apple could have trimmed at least a quarter of an inch from the edges, I was later referring to that trimming to mean that the frame around the screen would be smaller. The trim would have removed that last, thinnest part of the edge of the case, making it smaller.



    Quote:

    Hmm, have you actually picked up a MacBook Air and put it under your arm? It's tapered edges, while thin, are not razor sharp. Also, it's not the same 0.16" across the entire surface, but gradually expands to its thickest points in the back and the center.



    Yes, I have. It's uncomfortable to hold it by either the latch end, or esp. the sides. Very uncomfortable. And I don't have large hands. The fact that the case gets thicker, makes it difficult to grasp, without applying more pressure to your grip than the regular models require. That makes it uncomfortable to hold. There is also more pressure on your finger joints. It doesn't seem like much at first, but after a few minutes, it digs in.



    Holding it by the side is even worse, as the taper makes it hard to grasp. It tends to slide out sideways, and is unbalanced as to weight, much more than the normal MacBook Pro.



    Quote:

    Think about how it would feel to carry...a medium-sized textbook under your arm vs. a frozen pizza of roughly the same size, with its thickest point being slightly thinner than the thickest point of the book. The pizza's shape - thick center tapering off at the edges - fits the rounded crook of your arm, while the textbook basically forces you to straighten out your arm and push the book against the side of your abdomen to carry it comfortably.



    Sorry, but that doesn't relate. This isn't thickest in the middle, it's thickest at the end. It's also much smaller than your pizza.
  • Reply 183 of 311
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,001member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wobegon View Post


    Melgross, I'd like to introduce you to the new, expanded Newton:



    No. We've discussed this several times before. The iPhone isn't what we mean by that. The machine we're talking about would have a screen about 3 x 5, with about 800 x 480 rez. A slightly more powerful processor, etc.
  • Reply 184 of 311
    wobegonwobegon Posts: 764member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    That's not what I meant. I meant the thickness of the computer would have been the same, not the very edges.



    But then the overall thickness would have to be increased. Take a look at THIS deconstructed MacBook Air. Every inch of the case, tapered or otherwise, is pretty well used/filled.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    Yeah, they have rounded it off a bit, but the pictures do make it look more than it really is. It was only by about an eighth of an inch.



    Come on...was that the point?



    Q: Which one feels better in the hand?

    A: iPhone 3G.

    Why? Tapered edges.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    Yes, I have. It's uncomfortable to hold it by either the latch end, or esp. the sides. Very uncomfortable. And I don't have large hands. The fact that the case gets thicker, makes it difficult to grasp, without applying more pressure to your grip than the regular models require. That makes it uncomfortable to hold. There is also more pressure on your finger joints. It doesn't seem like much at first, but after a few minutes, it digs in.



    Now you're just being persnickety and ignoring common sense. Let's be logical here, most of the time most people are going to carry the MacBook Air with the hinged-end in the palm of their hand and the latch-end pointing up towards their armpit. Why? Because the Air is heaviest at the hinged-end. If they tried carrying it the other way, it wouldn't be the end of the world, but the thinner latch-end would probably cause uncomfortable pressure and...they'd do what's comfortable, switching it around and holding the hinge in their hand.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    Holding it by the side is even worse, as the taper makes it hard to grasp. It tends to slide out sideways, and is unbalanced as to weight, much more than the normal MacBook Pro.



    That's a similarly odd notion. Holding it on the left or right side would make it unwieldy, just as carrying either the 15" or 17" MacBook Pro is unwieldy when held in the same manner.



    What shape does your hand make when reaching for slender objects, like a pencil, a book, a MacBook; a.k.a. not a baseball? Unless you're a robot, or pretending to be one, it should be a teardrop shape from the side, with your thumb touching your index, middle (especially), and ring fingers.



    Your curved fingers make a nice shape for picking up the MacBook Air on either its latch-end or the right or left sides when its display is open. You would handle it this way to move your MacBook Air over to the side (when your food comes to the table for instance) in order to move it without closing the lid, which forces it to sleep.



    With the display closed, the Air's hinged-end replicates your teardrop-shaped hand, thus fitting into it like a puzzle piece and likewise, the Air's body slopes towards the latch-end, which matches the slight curve of the inside of your arm, unlike the flat, rounded-rectangle MacBook and MacBook Pro, which force you to push the laptop up against your waist or hip and straighten your arm to keep them from falling forwards or backwards out of your grasp.



    Just curious, do you not buy the redesigned MacBook Pro spy shots (below), which feature...tapered edges (and a long battery that, when removed, gives access to the hard drive bay, similar to the current MacBooks)?



  • Reply 185 of 311
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,001member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wobegon View Post


    But then the overall thickness would have to be increased.



    Every inch of the case, tapered or otherwise, is pretty well used/filled.I saw those pictures when they were first presented.



    The only thing at that edge is a wire, which could have been moved further inside, and whatever that small board is, which must be at the edge, and could be moved further in, as there is plenty of room behind it.



    Quote:

    Come on...was that the point?



    Q: Which one feels better in the hand?

    A: iPhone 3G.

    Why? Tapered edges.



    The edge is still thicker than the Air.



    It's also a much smaller palm sized device, and has nothing to do with the Air at all.



    Quote:

    Now you're just being persnickety and ignoring common sense. Let's be logical here, most of the time most people are going to carry the MacBook Air with the hinged-end in the palm of their hand and the latch-end pointing up towards their armpit. Why? Because the Air is heaviest at the hinged-end. If they tried carrying it the other way, it wouldn't be the end of the world, but the thinner latch-end would probably cause uncomfortable pressure and...they'd do what's comfortable, switching it around and holding the hinge in their hand.



    I consider you to be forcing the point. I simply don't agree with you here.



    Quote:

    That's a similarly odd notion. Holding it on the left or right side would make it unwieldy, just as carrying either the 15" or 17" MacBook Pro is unwieldy when held in the same manner.



    There have been times when I've had to hold a portable by the side, and I'm sure others have had to do so as well. This one is difficult to hold that way, even for a minute. I've tried it, have you?



    Quote:

    What shape does your hand make when reaching for slender objects, like a pencil, a book, a MacBook; a.k.a. not a baseball? Unless you're a robot, or pretending to be one, it should be a teardrop shape from the side, with your thumb touching your index, middle (especially), and ring fingers.



    We're talking about a three pound computer whose thin edge isn't shaped anything like a teardrop. Let's keep it to that. This isn't a clipboard.



    Quote:

    Your curved fingers make a nice shape for picking up the MacBook Air on either its latch-end or the right or left sides when its display is open. You would handle it this way to move your MacBook Air over to the side (when your food comes to the table for instance) in order to move it without closing the lid, which forces it to sleep.



    Sorry, but no.



    Quote:

    With the display closed, the Air's hinged-end replicates your teardrop-shaped hand, thus fitting into it like a puzzle piece and likewise, the Air's body slopes towards the latch-end, which matches the slight curve of the inside of your arm, unlike the flat, rounded-rectangle MacBook and MacBook Pro, which force you to push the laptop up against your waist or hip and straighten your arm to keep them from falling forwards or backwards out of your grasp.



    I have no real problem with the hinged end. I didn't mention it as a problem.



    Quote:

    Just curious, do you not buy the redesigned MacBook Pro spy shots (below), which feature...tapered edges (and a long battery that, when removed, gives access to the hard drive bay, similar to the current MacBooks)?



    Until these new models come out, it;s irrelevant. We'll have to pick them up, see how they feel, and what they weigh. I don't like to comment about non-existent products, it's pointless.
  • Reply 186 of 311
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,949member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wobegon View Post


    Yeah, that's very debatable. In my opinion, Apple sets the standards most of the industry then follows, so anything much slower than the Air is too slow...by today's standards.



    Apple just uses processors that someone else makes. I think they use faster chips to help justify the cost of the machines, not necessarily to set some standard.
  • Reply 187 of 311
    wobegonwobegon Posts: 764member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    The only thing at that edge is a wire, which could have been moved further inside, and whatever that small board is, which must be at the edge, and could be moved further in, as there is plenty of room behind it.



    Those small margins are not being wasted. How do you know that tiny amount of room isn't serving as an air duct? Ever notice how hot the MacBook and especially the MacBook Pro get in contrast to the rather cool running Air?



    If they had squared off the edges to resemble the rest of Apple's laptop line, which is comprised of a 3 year old MacBook case and nearly 5 year old MacBook Pro case, both of which are rather similar in overall look - rounded rectangles - the Air wouldn't feel nearly as thin and lightweight. They also would have had to make the large Multi-Touch track pad smaller. Tapered edges are more than just a talking piece.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    The edge is still thicker than the Air.



    It's also a much smaller palm sized device, and has nothing to do with the Air at all.



    The iPhone certainly does have something to do with Air. They're both made by the same company and they're both ultra-portable mobile WiFi devices that use Multi-Touch and eschew the use of discs in favor of digital distribution.



    Apple's last three products/product revisions:



    1) Aluminum iMac with its new curved back and clicky keyboard (which originally debuted on the MacBook).



    2) MacBook Air with its tapered edges, clicky keyboard (again borrowed from the MacBook) w/ backlit keys (borrowed from the Alu PowerBook G4/MacBook Pro), Multi-Touch trackpad (that enabled some iPhone-like gestures), and MagSafe power connector (from the first MacBook Pro and shared w/ MacBook), and a magnetic latch (from the MacBook).



    3) iPhone 3G with its tapered edges (borrowed from the MacBook Air).



    See the trends?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    I consider you to be forcing the point. I simply don't agree with you here.



    I didn't mean to force anything and I don't think I was. I simply tried to point out what anyone with a brain and nerve endings would do if something felt uncomfortable to hold, i.e. they'd flip whatever it is around under their arm until it was comfortable.



    We're also ignoring the fact that most people who carry around their laptop often usually get a neoprene sleeve at the very least, or put it into a messenger bag or backpack. In that context, the Air would more easily slide in and fit into places the more bulky, rectangular MacBook or MacBook Pro could not.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    There have been times when I've had to hold a portable by the side, and I'm sure others have had to do so as well. This one is difficult to hold that way, even for a minute. I've tried it, have you?



    Both the MacBook Pro and the Air are unwieldy when held that way. Can both be held that way? Sure, but it's not a good idea.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    We're talking about a three pound computer whose thin edge isn't shaped anything like a teardrop. Let's keep it to that. This isn't a clipboard.



    What the heck's your definition of a teardrop shape?



    Here's mine:

    or



    The Air most certainly is teardrop shaped. Look at THESE comparison photos or below at Apple's rendering (obviously, visualizing the sloping lid closed helps):





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    I have no real problem with the hinged end. I didn't mention it as a problem.



    You may not have mentioned it, but you appear to be ignoring that...it exists...and that...it solves the problem of carrying it under a person's arm.
  • Reply 188 of 311
    wobegonwobegon Posts: 764member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


    Apple just uses processors that someone else makes. I think they use faster chips to help justify the cost of the machines, not necessarily to set some standard.



    Sure, but they didn't just throw any old processor in there, especially with the Air, a machine of different compromises.



    They weighed processing power, size, energy efficiency and heat displacement. Apple has generally shown itself to make smart technical decisions for the device at hand, thus their products are both compelling and very competitive.
  • Reply 189 of 311
    daveyjjdaveyjj Posts: 120member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    Sorry, but no.



    I dislike having to jump in in mid-thread, especially when I have far fewer post than your 14,000+, but as an industrial designer of almost twenty years experience I can tell you flat out that wobegon is right here and you're pretty much wrong.



    If I pointed out an object with the exact same shape and mass of a closed Air to 99% of the general public and asked them to pick it up and carry it for more than 10-15 seconds, I can guarantee you, through years of experience, that they'd pick it up exactly as wobegon is describing. Hinge end (the heaviest, widest, most comfortable in their hand) down and tapered opening edge up towards their armpit.



    Johnathan Paul Ive would tell you exactly the same thing and I'm not one to doubt his (usual) brilliance. The Air, for me at least, having owned and used Apple machines since 1979, is a fabulous design. And is carried just like wobegon says. My $0.02 for what it's worth.
  • Reply 190 of 311
    wobegonwobegon Posts: 764member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DaveyJJ View Post


    I dislike having to jump in in mid-thread, especially when I have far fewer post than your 14,000+, but as an industrial designer of almost twenty years experience I can tell you flat out that wobegon is right here and you're pretty much wrong.



    If I pointed out an object with the exact same shape and mass of a closed Air to 99% of the general public and asked them to pick it up and carry it for more than 10-15 seconds, I can guarantee you, through years of experience, that they'd pick it up exactly as wobegon is describing. Hinge end (the heaviest, widest, most comfortable in their hand) down and tapered opening edge up towards their armpit.



    Johnathan Paul Ive would tell you exactly the same thing and I'm not one to doubt his (usual) brilliance. The Air, for me at least, having owned and used Apple machines since 1979, is a fabulous design. And is carried just like wobegon says. My $0.02 for what it's worth.



    Thank you. My sanity-o-meter was dropping off into the distorted reality zone!



    I also agree about the Air's industrial design. It embodies many peoples' visions of what computers of the future might look like, yet it's not some concept model for what "should be out in about...10 years, we swear!" It's the future today in many respects, just like the iPhone and Mac OS X Leopard (with Snow Leopard setting the ground work for major advancements and new paradigms).



    The Air uses magnets instead of mechanical latches and power connectors that can break down over time; its revised MagSafe connector hides the cord, rather than awkwardly sticking out perpendicular to the case. It has an LED backlit display that comes on to full brightness instantly and lasts much longer than cathode; in sleep mode, an invisible LED shines through micro mesh. Its display and black backit keyboard slickly increase and decrease in brightness depending on ambient light. Thanks to the abandonment of a bulky removable battery and internal disc drive, and the addition of an optional SSD (which will likely become standard when solid-state DRAM gets to 128GB capacity and a lower price tag), its impressively lightweight, thin, and emits almost no noise, or heat for that matter. Finally, its overall enclosure with tapered edges looks and feels like it was crafted from one big hunk of solid aluminum and the little rounded black feet in combination with a sloping underside create the illusion of it floating/hovering just above the surface of a table or desk.



    Where's the drooling smiley?
  • Reply 191 of 311
    cubitcubit Posts: 846member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solsun View Post


    When he says "same design," is he referring to the same color? Because the design of the MacBook Pro has completely changed since the PowerBook G4.



    Just a few changes..



    New Processors,

    New Motherboard design,

    New RAM,

    New Keyboard design,

    LED displays,

    New Trackpad with MultiTouch,

    iSight Camera added,

    Magsafe connector added,

    Backlight Keyboard added,

    New Speakers and placement,

    New Wi-FI 802.11n,

    Bluetooth 2.1 added,

    Firewire 800 port,

    PCI express slot added,

    Slimmer enclosure.



    Basically, the only thing that has not changed since the original PowerBook G4 is the color.



    I just don't get why people always say it has not been redesigned in ages.



    Well, it seems some people are looking for a circular laptop-- to be called an iDisk if that name had not already been taken and iFrisbeee would be copyright infringement.
  • Reply 192 of 311
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,001member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wobegon View Post


    Those small margins are not being wasted. How do you know that tiny amount of room isn't serving as an air duct? Ever notice how hot the MacBook and especially the MacBook Pro get in contrast to the rather cool running Air?



    If they had squared off the edges to resemble the rest of Apple's laptop line, which is comprised of a 3 year old MacBook case and nearly 5 year old MacBook Pro case, both of which are rather similar in overall look - rounded rectangles - the Air wouldn't feel nearly as thin and lightweight. They also would have had to make the large Multi-Touch track pad smaller. Tapered edges are more than just a talking piece.







    The iPhone certainly does have something to do with Air. They're both made by the same company and they're both ultra-portable mobile WiFi devices that use Multi-Touch and eschew the use of discs in favor of digital distribution.



    Apple's last three products/product revisions:



    1) Aluminum iMac with its new curved back and clicky keyboard (which originally debuted on the MacBook).



    2) MacBook Air with its tapered edges, clicky keyboard (again borrowed from the MacBook) w/ backlit keys (borrowed from the Alu PowerBook G4/MacBook Pro), Multi-Touch trackpad (that enabled some iPhone-like gestures), and MagSafe power connector (from the first MacBook Pro and shared w/ MacBook), and a magnetic latch (from the MacBook).



    3) iPhone 3G with its tapered edges (borrowed from the MacBook Air).



    See the trends?







    I didn't mean to force anything and I don't think I was. I simply tried to point out what anyone with a brain and nerve endings would do if something felt uncomfortable to hold, i.e. they'd flip whatever it is around under their arm until it was comfortable.



    We're also ignoring the fact that most people who carry around their laptop often usually get a neoprene sleeve at the very least, or put it into a messenger bag or backpack. In that context, the Air would more easily slide in and fit into places the more bulky, rectangular MacBook or MacBook Pro could not.







    Both the MacBook Pro and the Air are unwieldy when held that way. Can both be held that way? Sure, but it's not a good idea.







    What the heck's your definition of a teardrop shape?



    Here's mine:

    or



    The Air most certainly is teardrop shaped. Look at THESE comparison photos or below at Apple's rendering (obviously, visualizing the sloping lid closed helps):









    You may not have mentioned it, but you appear to be ignoring that...it exists...and that...it solves the problem of carrying it under a person's arm.



    You're warping everything here.
  • Reply 193 of 311
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,001member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DaveyJJ View Post


    I dislike having to jump in in mid-thread, especially when I have far fewer post than your 14,000+, but as an industrial designer of almost twenty years experience I can tell you flat out that wobegon is right here and you're pretty much wrong.



    If I pointed out an object with the exact same shape and mass of a closed Air to 99% of the general public and asked them to pick it up and carry it for more than 10-15 seconds, I can guarantee you, through years of experience, that they'd pick it up exactly as wobegon is describing. Hinge end (the heaviest, widest, most comfortable in their hand) down and tapered opening edge up towards their armpit.



    Johnathan Paul Ive would tell you exactly the same thing and I'm not one to doubt his (usual) brilliance. The Air, for me at least, having owned and used Apple machines since 1979, is a fabulous design. And is carried just like wobegon says. My $0.02 for what it's worth.



    I've also done a fair deal of industrial design for some large companies over the years, as well as for my own electronics manufacturing concern. So I'm not speaking from an amateur viewpoint.



    But, you are missing the point entirely. I'm not saying that one will want to pick up a laptop by the thinnest part. That is where you don't understand our argument.



    He's saying that because of the design, you will pick the computer up with your hand under the hinged side. I agree! Amazing!



    What I've also said it that one can, and often will, pick up other laptops by either the hinged side, or the latch side IF they are about the same in shape and weight. The Air, with its design, precludes that from happening.



    Also, when I mention picking the machine up from an end, as I also mentioned, something that might be required upon OCCASION, the Air's design makes it very difficult.



    You are both agreeing with what I'm saying without understanding what I'm saying, so you don't seem to realize it.
  • Reply 194 of 311
    mr. hmr. h Posts: 4,804member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    You are both agreeing with what I'm saying without understanding what I'm saying, so you don't seem to realize it.







    Back to whether the tapered edges and wide bezels are strictly necessary or not:



    Mel, do you think that the Air's edges could be slightly less tapered and the bezels made smaller without the Air getting any thicker? I heavily doubt that - if Apple could have hit the same thickness whilst having smaller bezels, surely they would have - it would have made for a lighter machine after all.



    It seems to me that Steve has this unfortunate obsession with extreme thinness. There's a point where making your product thinner forces compromises elsewhere that aren't worth it. I agree with you that it would be nice if the bezels of the Air were smaller. I think the reason that they are not smaller is that that would have forced the Air to be thicker and it's a shame they didn't choose to make that compromise.
  • Reply 195 of 311
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,408member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post


    It seems to me that Steve has this unfortunate obsession with extreme thinness.



  • Reply 196 of 311
    aapleaaple Posts: 78member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post










    Is that mean?
  • Reply 197 of 311
    wobegonwobegon Posts: 764member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    You're warping everything here.



    HOW!? Sheesh, I responded to the entirety of your post and you can't give me an example?



    Maybe it's your perspective that's warped here.





    EDIT



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    You are both agreeing with what I'm saying without understanding what I'm saying, so you don't seem to realize it.



    Whew, blowing my mind.



    If we agree, how am I "warping everything" and you're not?



    *cough* backpedalling *cough*
  • Reply 198 of 311
    aapleaaple Posts: 78member
    So is consensus that this event will be early September, two separate events, or end of September. Munster said early...but doesn't have much evidence to back that up.
  • Reply 199 of 311
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by aaple View Post


    So is consensus that this event will be early September, two separate events, or end of September. Munster said early...but doesn't have much evidence to back that up.



    Why would a consensus of people who don't know anything matter?
  • Reply 200 of 311
    Seriously, no one knows has any real idea of when it is going to be, other than "between september 1 and 30". Maybe by the end of august there will be real hints and guesses.



    The wait for this thing is killing me. My MBP was stolen in late June (just got the 2k insurance check, thank god) and the timing actually worked out surprisingly conveniently... but this is going to take forever. And the bad part of the wait isn't even close.
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