Apple accused of dodging fair pay in class action lawsuit

135

Comments

  • Reply 41 of 90
    trboydentrboyden Posts: 165member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bigmc6000 View Post


    It's a bit hard to compare different countries as there are a number of factors at play - not the least of which is the value of the currency. And yeah, considering they are in CA and this guy has been w/ the company 12 years I don't think it's at all a strech to think he makes at least 100k. Again there's no documentation for that but considering I'm in Texas and the Cost of Living is much less and Senior Network Engineers w/ 12 years experience make that much here I'm very inclined to believe they make at least that much in CA.



    Apple offered me $60k to be a Network Engineer in Boston, one of the highest cost of living areas in the US. So I'd say $100k is a bit of a stretch and probably why he is suing. Knowing I'd be doing a lot more work and traveling for the money I turned it down. Good thing too now that gas is $3.75 a gallon +.
  • Reply 42 of 90
    Unfortunately this is something we see happen all to often. Typically with start-ups and dot com's. They bootstrapped it through their initial funding, and once they get an IPO and the initial employees leave, new ones who aren't millionaires come in and raise a fuss (for good reason.) The initial employees don't fight so much because they see the potential, and hopefully end up making a lot of money with the company. Once that's already happened, and the company is growing, but the employees don't see a trip to the Jaguar dealership in the near future they have to change their policies and start paying their technicians for hours worked. I can't count the number of times I've see tech companies use "Senior" Engineers for on call work on Salary, who end up working 70+ hours a week. Network Techs and Engineers are some of the hardest working people in a Tech Company, and should be compensated justly.



    Apple will lose this suit, but I doubt it will ever go to trial. We'll see a settlement come forward after a few months of negotiations and their engineers and techs will receive back pay for a few years OT and more money going forward.



    It'll be interesting to watch. I'm sure we'll hear Apple say soon "We can't AFFORD to pay them the OT and will have to lay off workers!" That's hogwash, and just a negotiating tactic.



    Stay strong. Get paid for the word you do. Only people managers are the ones who won't get their just desserts and paid for the long hours. Sorry middle management



    Warm Regards,

    Scott Hardy

    http://www.topclassactions.com
  • Reply 43 of 90
    You need to move then because 60k for someone with 12 years experience is crap. I mean, if you only have a couple years experience I could believe it but this guy was obviously pretty important or else he wouldn't be the goto guy (i.e. he wouldn't be the one being called at 2AM (or is that 3AM Hillary? haha, I had to!) if he didn't know what he was doing). Of course we're also assuming he ONLY has 12 years experience - not just 12 years at Apple on top of experience elsewhere.



    But, I'm glad you turned it down because that's crap but also, I live in Texas where cost of living is quite low and people are getting paid much more than 60k to be Senior Network Engineers...
  • Reply 44 of 90
    zinfellazinfella Posts: 876member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by trboyden View Post


    Apple offered me $60k to be a Network Engineer in Boston, one of the highest cost of living areas in the US. So I'd say $100k is a bit of a stretch and probably why he is suing. Knowing I'd be doing a lot more work and traveling for the money I turned it down. Good thing too now that gas is $3.75 a gallon +.



    Now THAT is the appropriate response to job conditions that one doesn't like. Taking the job, then whining about it isn't.
  • Reply 45 of 90
    And we wonder why the Chinese, Mexicans, Indians and others continue to eat our lunch when it comes to competing on the labor front? How's this for "fair labor" - if Apple or any other company makes you work too many hours or hours that you don't like, you quit. This isn't like a scene from "Cinderella Man," where men would line up outside the gates by the dock in the 1930's to do manual labor. If you're skilled at what you do today in the computer biz, other companies will be interested in what you have to offer.



    Back when I was a kid, our parents would load us on a bus in the wee hours of the morning during summer for a trip to the berry fields, where we'd pick all day and then come back home. Didn't make much, but it kept us out of trouble and taught us what hard work was all about and also taught us about the value of money. I don't know if they would even let us do that under today's labor laws.
  • Reply 46 of 90
    Yet another AFL/CIO mole. They've been trying to get Apple to unionize for years. Apple employees do work very hard but, in return, they are treated very well. HP used to be this way too... then some lady named Carly took over, ran it like a typical East Coast mega corporation and treated the employees as such ... thus inviting unions ... and now, what was once one of the best employers in Silicon Valley is just another bloated bureaucracy of blue collars and white collars.

    I've never worked for Apple but have worked with them since 1995 and it is truly a culture unto itself. Those who complain are people who look for something to complain about... imagine if they were self employed.
  • Reply 47 of 90
    My god...the first site I've seen to publish this story without referring to slavery or indentured servitude. Amazing how the truth works.



    My level of respect for AppleInsider is much higher today as a result of this. It wasn't low or anything before...it was pretty neutral actually...this raised it.



    Oh and if the charges are true Apple should pay. Though that still doesn't excuse the guy for being an asshat for not quitting while suffering those "conditions". Any normal person would be out of there after the first refusal of overtime pay, or at least would have immediately sued.
  • Reply 48 of 90
    cnocbuicnocbui Posts: 3,613member
    'Responsibility to it's shareholders.' I love this phrase. It is not too dissimilar in intent from 'only following orders' - a plea to some higher overriding principle that somehow makes actions ethically sanctified.



    I would have thought, adherence to the spirit and letter of a law should take precedence over returns to shareholders.



    I am not familiar with the duties carried out by a network engineer. Can someone please tell me how many other employees this terrible person was likely to have had direct responsibility over?



    I can see a case for someone being classed 'senior' if they are actually senior in pay, function and responsibility to others who are 'junior'. But if there are no 'juniors', as this person seems to be implying, then it would seem likely the designation was meaningless other than to camouflage the true nature of the position. I would have thought that anyone who was 'on call' could hardly be performing a function that you could justifiably argue should be salaried.
  • Reply 49 of 90
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,946member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post


    There are pros and cons of being a salaried (exempt) vs hourly (non-exempt) employee. You have a guaranteed salary (not subject to the number of hours you may or may not work) in exchange for being expected to be flexible in your hours (including working over 40 hours/week).



    Sometimes it's a bit of a con too, I've heard of cases (though I haven't heard of it at Apple) where workers are docked for working less than 40, but not given any more for more than 40. IIRC, US labor laws require one or the other mode of pay, not take the worst of both as a hybrid.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MacinTek View Post


    Yet another AFL/CIO mole.



    Do you have any proof that he's working for them too, or do you like making prejudiced claims without proof?





    Anyway, as I understand it, "manager inflation" is common. Scott Adams said that his title at PacBell had "manager" in it but he didn't have anyone reporting to him, making it a ruse to avoid overtime pay.
  • Reply 50 of 90
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,946member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Rot'nApple View Post


    Obama says "um" a lot, as well as "ah" and "uh"!



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by zinfella View Post


    Yeahbut,everyone knows that he's an idiot.



    Guys, do we really need this? This is no place for a political campaign, there's the AppleOutsider forum for that.
  • Reply 51 of 90
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by coffeetime View Post


    And we wonder why the Chinese, Mexicans, Indians and others continue to eat our lunch when it comes to competing on the labor front? How's this for "fair labor" - if Apple or any other company makes you work too many hours or hours that you don't like, you quit. This isn't like a scene from "Cinderella Man," where men would line up outside the gates by the dock in the 1930's to do manual labor. If you're skilled at what you do today in the computer biz, other companies will be interested in what you have to offer.



    Back when I was a kid, our parents would load us on a bus in the wee hours of the morning during summer for a trip to the berry fields, where we'd pick all day and then come back home. Didn't make much, but it kept us out of trouble and taught us what hard work was all about and also taught us about the value of money. I don't know if they would even let us do that under today's labor laws.





    x2 I get my hands dirty every day. EVERY day. Yeah, actual grease and dirt. And sometimes I work till 8PM, sometimes I work Saturdays. That's may job.



    Perhaps his job description of "maintaining networks" wasn't clear enough to him. He needs to actually maintain the network, and yes, it probably does break on Saturdays and Sundays. Since he was salaried, I don't really see a problem here? He would have bitched if he was hourly and they told him to go home early because there was no work to be done. Cake and eat it too or something?
  • Reply 52 of 90
    zinfellazinfella Posts: 876member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post


    'Responsibility to it's shareholders.' I love this phrase. It is not too dissimilar in intent from 'only following orders' - a plea to some higher overriding principle that somehow makes actions ethically sanctified.



    I would have thought, adherence to the spirit and letter of a law should take precedence over returns to shareholders.



    I am not familiar with the duties carried out by a network engineer. Can someone please tell me how many other employees this terrible person was likely to have had direct responsibility over?



    I can see a case for someone being classed 'senior' if they are actually senior in pay, function and responsibility to others who are 'junior'. But if there are no 'juniors', as this person seems to be implying, then it would seem likely the designation was meaningless other than to camouflage the true nature of the position. I would have thought that anyone who was 'on call' could hardly be performing a function that you could justifiably argue should be salaried.



    You have evidence that Apple broke the law? After you digest the fact that it took this guy 12 years to become dissatisfied, put up or shut up.
  • Reply 53 of 90
    cnocbuicnocbui Posts: 3,613member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by zinfella View Post


    Now THAT is the appropriate response to job conditions that one doesn't like. Taking the job, then whining about it isn't.



    I love your logic!



    The OP has acted ethically but Apple not being prepared to pay fairly for the work they expect is perfectly OK - vis-Ã*-vis the person suing them.



    Keep it up, we'll soon have kids back down the mines, mothers sedating their kids with laudanum so they can work 12-14 hours straight, get rid of all those unnecessarily expensive health and safety measures - what's a few eyes, limbs or lives compared to shareholder returns?



    Ah yes, 'take it or leave it', the preeminent moral dictate that should govern the worker/employer compact.



    "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.": George Santayana.
  • Reply 54 of 90
    zinfellazinfella Posts: 876member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post


    I love your logic!



    The OP has acted ethically but Apple not being prepared to pay fairly for the work they expect is perfectly OK - vis-Ã*-vis the person suing them.



    Keep it up, we'll soon have kids back down the mines, mothers sedating their kids with laudanum so they can work 12-14 hours straight, get rid of all those unnecessarily expensive health and safety measures - what's a few eyes, limbs or lives compared to shareholder returns?



    Ah yes, 'take it or leave it', the preeminent moral dictate that should govern the worker/employer compact.





    Uhhhhhhh, you missed your meds there, big guy. Now tell us how evil the corporations are.
  • Reply 55 of 90
    cnocbuicnocbui Posts: 3,613member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by zinfella View Post


    You have evidence that Apple broke the law? After you digest the fact that it took this guy 12 years to become dissatisfied, put up or shut up.



    Put up or shut up what? It will be up to the courts to decide whether any law was broken. Reread my post, I never claimed Apple had broken a law, I was making an observation about the fallacy that an appeal to 'responsibility to shareholdres' is an all encompassing moral justification for behaviour.
  • Reply 56 of 90
    cnocbuicnocbui Posts: 3,613member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by zinfella View Post


    Uhhhhhhh, you missed your meds there, big guy. Now tell us how evil the corporations are.



    "meds" ;"big guy"



    A bit touchy about something, are we? :-)
  • Reply 57 of 90
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post


    Keep it up, we'll soon have kids back down the mines, mothers sedating their kids with laudanum so they can work 12-14 hours straight, get rid of all those unnecessarily expensive health and safety measures - what's a few eyes, limbs or lives compared to shareholder returns?



    Ah yes, 'take it or leave it', the preeminent moral dictate that should govern the worker/employer compact.



    "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.": George Santayana.



    And the award for biggest drama queen of the day goes to......YOU.
  • Reply 58 of 90
    wigginwiggin Posts: 2,265member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by zinfella View Post


    This particular case has a bad smell to it. It took him 12 years to complain?



    That could be an important factor...did he complain during those twelve years? If he felt his categorization as an exempt employee was incorrect, did he contact his HR manager about it to get a clarification or file a complaint while he was an employee? We don't know, but I haven't seen it mentioned in any of the coverage.



    If he kept on cashing his paycheck for 12 years without once challenging his exempt status, and only filed a lawsuit after ending his employment, I'd say he might have a tough time in court. If, on the other hand, if he spent 11.5 years as a non-exempt employee collecting overtime, and then Apple suddenly and improperly changed his status to exempt, and then fired him after he complained about it...then he'd have a case.
  • Reply 59 of 90
    wigginwiggin Posts: 2,265member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post


    'Responsibility to it's shareholders.' I love this phrase. It is not too dissimilar in intent from 'only following orders' - a plea to some higher overriding principle that somehow makes actions ethically sanctified.



    I agree. Even worse is when I see posted, "responsibility to shareholders to maximize profits." This is the poorest excuse possible for lack of corporate governance. Nobody ever seems to remember the responsibility to shareholders to ethically run the company in compliance with the law so you don't go out of business and make the stock value $0 (Enron, anybody?) I really wish I had the copy of Fortune (I think) magazine from the late 90's with an interview with Steve Jobs where he said one of the biggest problems with a lot of companies was they the were too focused on short-term profits and not enough on building a long-term, sustainable company.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post


    I would have thought that anyone who was 'on call' could hardly be performing a function that you could justifiably argue should be salaried.



    Actually, quite the opposite is true. "Salaried" often has more to do with the level of technical skills of the job and little to do with if they are "on call." You'll find even the lowest levels of IT in a big company are salary employees while the senior manager of the 7-11 down the street is an hourly employee. And "on call" can become very complicated if the person is an hourly worker. If they are on call, but not called in, do you pay them? After all, being on call restricts your activities (no heavy drinking or hopping on a flight to Europe), but you may not be performing actual work.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


    Scott Adams said that his title at PacBell had "manager" in it but he didn't have anyone reporting to him, making it a ruse to avoid overtime pay.



    Having "manager" in your title can have very little (or nothing) to do with having people report to you. That's a somewhat narrow definition of the word. There are many things you can manage other than people. In fact, I once had a "manager" job and not only did I not have anyone reporting to me, I in fact had no power over the thing that my title suggested that I managed!
  • Reply 60 of 90
    ravedogravedog Posts: 33member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wilco View Post


    Yes, because only a communist would expect corporations to adhere to labor laws.



    Pull your head out of your ass.



    Can you say anything without being mean or nasty? Talk about someone with a finite vocabulary.
Sign In or Register to comment.