EDGE is data only, you would be using GSM for the voice part if turning 3G off
this perhaps, for those that aren't cell phone tech geeks, you can explain how someone can be standing in the same spot, within a 2 minute block of time. have 3G on with the lowest bar only, but then turn it off and suddenly get all 5 bars. what is causing that switch in 'strength' if the whole Edge/3G issue is moot
...oh, also - I had dropped-call problems with AT&T's GSM network a couple years back - I switched to verizon. It's not 3G, or GSM - it's the underlying tracking software. Blaming 3G is like blaming the mailman for bringing you bills.
Thanks for your explanations on this. If the problem (as I interpret it) is in AT&T's software, does that mean that their hardware (towers, transmitters, antennae, etc.) should function fine once they get this sorted out? (Other than tower density, which is a capitalization problem.) If so, that gives us hope that this can be sorted out eventually without AT&T having to 'tear everything out and start over'.
Also, this is jumping the gun somewhat, does any of this have any bearing on future LTE implementations? My understanding is it leverages most of the same GSM hardware already in place.
The question isn't if there is benefit it's if it's noticeable. I haven't had a single problem operating under 2G/GSM and all the voices come through quite clear. Ultimately you're just having a telephone conversation and considering the average persons talking vocal range is quite limited there's no reason to care about the 20-20k Hz range. I'll give it to you that there is some benefit but that's like oversampling an audiobook - it's generally a complete waste of time/space.
this perhaps, for those that aren't cell phone tech geeks, you can explain how someone can be standing in the same spot, within a 2 minute block of time. have 3G on with the lowest bar only, but then turn it off and suddenly get all 5 bars. what is causing that switch in 'strength' if the whole Edge/3G issue is moot
I don't know, I wasn't comparing EDGE, and 3G. I was merely commenting on the incorrect use of terminology
GSM is for voice, or circuit switched data
EDGE (and GPRS) are used for data
3G (the GSM variety that is) is used for both.
So if someone turns off 3G on their iPhone, they will have a hard time making, or receiving a voice call on EDGE, they would be using GSM
I don't know, I wasn't comparing EDGE, and 3G. I was merely commenting on the incorrect use of terminology
GSM is for voice, or circuit switched data
EDGE (and GPRS) are used for data
3G (the GSM variety that is) is used for both.
So if someone turns off 3G on their iPhone, they will have a hard time making, or receiving a voice call on EDGE, they would be using GSM
GSM is a 3GPP standard that includes CSD, GPRS and EDGE. All three use the TDMA air interface. The only differences are the data transmission speeds are based on data standard used. They all fall under the '2G' umbrella.
Look at like the difference between UMTA, HSDPA, HSUPA. All are part of the UMTS standard under 3GPP and all use the W-CDMA air interface. These all fall under the '3G' umbrella.
GSM is a 3GPP standard that includes CSD, GPRS and EDGE. All three use the TDMA air interface. The only differences are the data transmission speeds are based on data standard used. They all fall under the '2G' umbrella.
Look at like the difference between UMTA, HSDPA, HSUPA. All are part of the UMTS standard under 3GPP and all use the W-CDMA air interface. These all fall under the '3G' umbrella.
You would have been better off quoting the person who was asking the question on the differences, I was merely commenting on the person incorrectly saying they would be using EDGE for a voice call
...oh, also - I had dropped-call problems with AT&T's GSM network a couple years back - I switched to verizon. It's not 3G, or GSM - it's the underlying tracking software. Blaming 3G is like blaming the mailman for bringing you bills.
Thanks for the explanation. But if people are getting good voice call performance on AT&T's GSM today (unlike what you had a couple years back), why couldn't those tracking algorithms be carried over to AT&T's 3G implementation? What's different, tracking-wise, about 3G?
I was trying to keep myself shut about this kind of "unstable 3G connection" issue because the reasons why it happens are clear for me, but now I think I can say something about this.
Well, people should/must get minimal information on how a wireless connection works before starting with "this is a device problem" statements. The quality/strength of a connection signal depends on the network coverage, on how far or near we are from a cell. If the network coverage isn't good, you can get the kickass state of the art device and it wont work well! Here in Europe we have 3G network for some time now and we all experienced that kind of issues: the cityscape doesn't allow the signal to pass through, or we are too far away from a cell (and that can say another one should be placed nearer). Unfortunately it's... ahem... "normal"! So the problem is not in the devices, is in the carrier itself. There are limitations on where the signal can pass through and, even when it finds its way of propagation, the signal gets weaker with the distance. Even with wired communications there's loss of bandwidth with the distance (take ADSL as an example).
With all that, people should argue with the carriers in order to get better network coverage and not with the device makers. There can be exceptions like 2 different devices using same carrier and one has less connection than the other but I don't think that's the problem here.
The iPhone and the BB can be amazing devices but they'll never be perfect, and that will be even harder to achieve when 3rd party services like carriers are in the game too. The devices don't depend on themselves only to work properly and we must keep this in mind.
You would have been better off quoting the person who was asking the question on the differences, I was merely commenting on the person incorrectly saying they would be using EDGE for a voice call
I quoted you because you referred to EDGE as not being GSM and as 3G in reference to the "GSM variety" which it is not. The latter I understand as UMTS and W-CDMA are not as well known initialisms and 3G can mean too many things, but the former is clearly incorrect.
Thanks for your explanations on this. If the problem (as I interpret it) is in AT&T's software, does that mean that their hardware (towers, transmitters, antennae, etc.) should function fine once they get this sorted out? (Other than tower density, which is a capitalization problem.) If so, that gives us hope that this can be sorted out eventually without AT&T having to 'tear everything out and start over'.
Also, this is jumping the gun somewhat, does any of this have any bearing on future LTE implementations? My understanding is it leverages most of the same GSM hardware already in place.
A lot of this problem has more to do with call density than tracking, as Wired has said.
I often get a five bar 3G signal, only to see it drop to one or two bars, and stay there. Then, at times, it will drop out of 3G and go to five or four bars of Edge, then pop back up to three bars of 3G.
This is without me moving the phone at all.
Wired's explanation, which makes more sense than a tracking issue, is that 3G towers are getting overloaded, hence they drop out entirely, and Edge takes over. When some calls finish, capacity is restored, and you get 3G again. It goes back and forth in areas where there is great density of 3G phones.
Digital is either working, or not working. If capacity is too low, there will be problems.
Combine this with not quite enough towers in a number of areas and you have problems. Also, AT&T has said that the 3G towers are being upgraded as to the strength of the signal. That will help as well.
Thanks for your explanations on this. If the problem (as I interpret it) is in AT&T's software, does that mean that their hardware (towers, transmitters, antennae, etc.) should function fine once they get this sorted out? (Other than tower density, which is a capitalization problem.) If so, that gives us hope that this can be sorted out eventually without AT&T having to 'tear everything out and start over'.
Also, this is jumping the gun somewhat, does any of this have any bearing on future LTE implementations? My understanding is it leverages most of the same GSM hardware already in place.
...maybe, possibly, probably? Unfortunately, I would be speculating about whether AT&T's specific implementation will solve their problem with signal tracking. As a discouraging example: when the US Gov't (and contractors) upgrades radars, they have a nasty habit of trying to patch legacy systems whenever possible (cost-savings). This carries-forward many of the glitches from past systems into the new ones.
I am guessing that AT&T would employ similar cost-saving techniques, including porting their support/tracking software when possible. As technology improves, a better iphone antenna/chipset/etc would [possibly] compensate, allowing for a more-stable system without giving EMF-worriers huge brain tumors... another possibility is that Verizon's new network will [eventually] be iphone-friendly for one reason or another, and US customers will be able to switch and get the benefits of better tracking.
The problem with the question you raise is that tracking software is proprietary, and the really good stuff is classified by the US Gov't (they don't want to share their tracking toys with the other children...). AT&T can't just borrow someone else's, and if they wrote new software from scratch there would be new errors to fix (replace OS9.2 with OSX 10.0 and watch people go berzerk when 50% of calls are dropped in the first week of go-live).
The downside: This will be an ongoing Cingular/AT&T weakness for the foreseeable future.
The upside: Software patches in a phone *can* compensate for this, to a degree, and Apple has a decent incentive to make a propriety chipset that makes the biggest receiving area while using the least amount of power/battery life...
I quoted you because you referred to EDGE as not being GSM and as 3G in reference to the "GSM variety" which it is not. The latter I understand as UMTS and W-CDMA are not as well known initialisms and 3G can mean too many things, but the former is clearly incorrect.
That is not what I said, I said EDGE is for data, not voice.
I put the GSM variety beside the 3G as EVDO (while is 3G) is data only
That is not what I said, I said EDGE is for data, not voice.
I put the GSM variety beside the 3G as EVDO (while is 3G) is data only
You are always trying to rewrite what you said even thought it's only a scroll away. You wrote, "GSM is for voice, or circuit switched data" despite GSM being the same standard used for GPRS and EDGE.
You are always trying to rewrite what you said even thought it's only a scroll away. You wrote, "GSM is for voice, or circuit switched data" despite GSM being the same standard used for GPRS and EDGE.
Now you are just getting picky
GSM is circuit switched, GPRS is a addition to enable packet switching for data.
Yes GSM can be used for data, but if you did it would be CSD, so 9.6k, or 14.4k.
For GSM package swtiched data you could use GPRS, or EDGE.
You don't use GPRS/EDGE for voice which is the point I was trying to make
You don't use GPRS/EDGE for voice which is the point I was trying to make
Then that is all you had to say. The other stuff is just confusing. Cellluar standards are so f-ing confusing as it is and the US, with their disparate systems, makes it even tougher to get a handle on.
Then that is all you had to say. The other stuff is just confusing. Cellluar standards are so f-ing confusing as it is and the US, with their disparate systems, makes it even tougher to get a handle on.
I'm pretty sure its the network. Cause up here in Toronto, Canada I usually have 4-5 bars, and my 3G access is really fast. And before this fiasco I've never heard about "dropped calls", cause I've never experienced it - with any cellphone in Canada.
The tower is dumb. It doesn't know if you are moving, what direction you are moving, or how fast you are moving. All it can ever know is position, and ID.
Why can it not also know signal strength? My phone knows (supposedly, if we are to trust the bars) how much of a signal I'm getting from the tower, so the tower should also know how much of a phone signal it's getting. And if that signal is strong, it should use that info in its decision-making process of whether to drop the call if it misses a cycle. If the signal had been (very) weak, then sure, maybe dropping the call is the best course of action. But if I had 5 bars, there is no way the tower should be missing any cycles, so if it does lose one, dropping the call should be its LAST option.
Is this issue the lousy logic you're referring to AT&T using?
I no longer believe the iPhone is faulty. Previously I had read reports on the Interwebs and become convinced, but after hearing about the Swedish tests that found no antenna fault I decided to buy one and it has been flawless with a strong 3G signal (admittedly I haven't had it very long). It is a great product.
IPhone is a great product or concept but execution is wanting. I've had some issues with calls but frankly the cell phone component was not a big draw. What was is the portable computer / Internet access functionality. With respect to this usage the iPhone is wanting. That mostly due to bugs in all the software. The apps (mail, Safari, contacts and the like) do what I want when they don't crash. But frankly what good is an E-Mail program that crashes after two SIMPLE messages are read.
I guess that is the #1 thing that burns my behind, mail crashes when you open up nothing but simple E-Mails. It would be a bit different if the crashes happened on really complex multi media E-Mail but this is not the case at all.
Then we get into the issue of syncing through Mobile Me. To much corruption and difficulty here. Moreso I'm wondering why a sync over USB can't fix this. Worst is trying to find the work around on Apples support web site. The killer is that all the need to do is add a button that just completely resuncs an app. So if my calendar gets screwed up I can just tap a button to get a refresh from "me.com". Seems like a good solid solution to me.
Now understand these are frustrations! I now use my iPhone every day, with crashes or other issues every day. It certainly solves a need but I did expect a little better out of Apple for core functionality. The only good thing is that I have confidence that Apple will address the bugs which is more than can be said for the majority of hand set makers.
So I won't suggest to anybody not to buy an iPhone, it is a good machine but you need to be aware of the bugs. In any event I'm hoping most of these issues are dealt with before the end of next month.
I'm pretty sure its the network. Cause up here in Toronto, Canada I usually have 4-5 bars, and my 3G access is really fast. And before this fiasco I've never heard about "dropped calls", cause I've never experienced it - with any cellphone in Canada.
I am up to 1500kbps now, which is over 10 times my EDGE. What are you getting?
By the way, how much Data Usage did you use? My Rogers bill came the other day and I only used 42 MBs for a 3 week period.
Comments
EDGE is data only, you would be using GSM for the voice part if turning 3G off
this perhaps, for those that aren't cell phone tech geeks, you can explain how someone can be standing in the same spot, within a 2 minute block of time. have 3G on with the lowest bar only, but then turn it off and suddenly get all 5 bars. what is causing that switch in 'strength' if the whole Edge/3G issue is moot
...oh, also - I had dropped-call problems with AT&T's GSM network a couple years back - I switched to verizon. It's not 3G, or GSM - it's the underlying tracking software. Blaming 3G is like blaming the mailman for bringing you bills.
Thanks for your explanations on this. If the problem (as I interpret it) is in AT&T's software, does that mean that their hardware (towers, transmitters, antennae, etc.) should function fine once they get this sorted out? (Other than tower density, which is a capitalization problem.) If so, that gives us hope that this can be sorted out eventually without AT&T having to 'tear everything out and start over'.
Also, this is jumping the gun somewhat, does any of this have any bearing on future LTE implementations? My understanding is it leverages most of the same GSM hardware already in place.
Yes there is.
The question isn't if there is benefit it's if it's noticeable. I haven't had a single problem operating under 2G/GSM and all the voices come through quite clear. Ultimately you're just having a telephone conversation and considering the average persons talking vocal range is quite limited there's no reason to care about the 20-20k Hz range. I'll give it to you that there is some benefit but that's like oversampling an audiobook - it's generally a complete waste of time/space.
this perhaps, for those that aren't cell phone tech geeks, you can explain how someone can be standing in the same spot, within a 2 minute block of time. have 3G on with the lowest bar only, but then turn it off and suddenly get all 5 bars. what is causing that switch in 'strength' if the whole Edge/3G issue is moot
I don't know, I wasn't comparing EDGE, and 3G. I was merely commenting on the incorrect use of terminology
GSM is for voice, or circuit switched data
EDGE (and GPRS) are used for data
3G (the GSM variety that is) is used for both.
So if someone turns off 3G on their iPhone, they will have a hard time making, or receiving a voice call on EDGE, they would be using GSM
I don't know, I wasn't comparing EDGE, and 3G. I was merely commenting on the incorrect use of terminology
GSM is for voice, or circuit switched data
EDGE (and GPRS) are used for data
3G (the GSM variety that is) is used for both.
So if someone turns off 3G on their iPhone, they will have a hard time making, or receiving a voice call on EDGE, they would be using GSM
GSM is a 3GPP standard that includes CSD, GPRS and EDGE. All three use the TDMA air interface. The only differences are the data transmission speeds are based on data standard used. They all fall under the '2G' umbrella.
Look at like the difference between UMTA, HSDPA, HSUPA. All are part of the UMTS standard under 3GPP and all use the W-CDMA air interface. These all fall under the '3G' umbrella.
GSM is a 3GPP standard that includes CSD, GPRS and EDGE. All three use the TDMA air interface. The only differences are the data transmission speeds are based on data standard used. They all fall under the '2G' umbrella.
Look at like the difference between UMTA, HSDPA, HSUPA. All are part of the UMTS standard under 3GPP and all use the W-CDMA air interface. These all fall under the '3G' umbrella.
You would have been better off quoting the person who was asking the question on the differences, I was merely commenting on the person incorrectly saying they would be using EDGE for a voice call
...oh, also - I had dropped-call problems with AT&T's GSM network a couple years back - I switched to verizon. It's not 3G, or GSM - it's the underlying tracking software. Blaming 3G is like blaming the mailman for bringing you bills.
Thanks for the explanation. But if people are getting good voice call performance on AT&T's GSM today (unlike what you had a couple years back), why couldn't those tracking algorithms be carried over to AT&T's 3G implementation? What's different, tracking-wise, about 3G?
Or is AT&T's GSM really still bad?
Well, people should/must get minimal information on how a wireless connection works before starting with "this is a device problem" statements. The quality/strength of a connection signal depends on the network coverage, on how far or near we are from a cell. If the network coverage isn't good, you can get the kickass state of the art device and it wont work well! Here in Europe we have 3G network for some time now and we all experienced that kind of issues: the cityscape doesn't allow the signal to pass through, or we are too far away from a cell (and that can say another one should be placed nearer). Unfortunately it's... ahem... "normal"! So the problem is not in the devices, is in the carrier itself. There are limitations on where the signal can pass through and, even when it finds its way of propagation, the signal gets weaker with the distance. Even with wired communications there's loss of bandwidth with the distance (take ADSL as an example).
With all that, people should argue with the carriers in order to get better network coverage and not with the device makers. There can be exceptions like 2 different devices using same carrier and one has less connection than the other but I don't think that's the problem here.
The iPhone and the BB can be amazing devices but they'll never be perfect, and that will be even harder to achieve when 3rd party services like carriers are in the game too. The devices don't depend on themselves only to work properly and we must keep this in mind.
You would have been better off quoting the person who was asking the question on the differences, I was merely commenting on the person incorrectly saying they would be using EDGE for a voice call
I quoted you because you referred to EDGE as not being GSM and as 3G in reference to the "GSM variety" which it is not. The latter I understand as UMTS and W-CDMA are not as well known initialisms and 3G can mean too many things, but the former is clearly incorrect.
Thanks for your explanations on this. If the problem (as I interpret it) is in AT&T's software, does that mean that their hardware (towers, transmitters, antennae, etc.) should function fine once they get this sorted out? (Other than tower density, which is a capitalization problem.) If so, that gives us hope that this can be sorted out eventually without AT&T having to 'tear everything out and start over'.
Also, this is jumping the gun somewhat, does any of this have any bearing on future LTE implementations? My understanding is it leverages most of the same GSM hardware already in place.
A lot of this problem has more to do with call density than tracking, as Wired has said.
I often get a five bar 3G signal, only to see it drop to one or two bars, and stay there. Then, at times, it will drop out of 3G and go to five or four bars of Edge, then pop back up to three bars of 3G.
This is without me moving the phone at all.
Wired's explanation, which makes more sense than a tracking issue, is that 3G towers are getting overloaded, hence they drop out entirely, and Edge takes over. When some calls finish, capacity is restored, and you get 3G again. It goes back and forth in areas where there is great density of 3G phones.
Digital is either working, or not working. If capacity is too low, there will be problems.
Combine this with not quite enough towers in a number of areas and you have problems. Also, AT&T has said that the 3G towers are being upgraded as to the strength of the signal. That will help as well.
Thanks for your explanations on this. If the problem (as I interpret it) is in AT&T's software, does that mean that their hardware (towers, transmitters, antennae, etc.) should function fine once they get this sorted out? (Other than tower density, which is a capitalization problem.) If so, that gives us hope that this can be sorted out eventually without AT&T having to 'tear everything out and start over'.
Also, this is jumping the gun somewhat, does any of this have any bearing on future LTE implementations? My understanding is it leverages most of the same GSM hardware already in place.
...maybe, possibly, probably? Unfortunately, I would be speculating about whether AT&T's specific implementation will solve their problem with signal tracking. As a discouraging example: when the US Gov't (and contractors) upgrades radars, they have a nasty habit of trying to patch legacy systems whenever possible (cost-savings). This carries-forward many of the glitches from past systems into the new ones.
I am guessing that AT&T would employ similar cost-saving techniques, including porting their support/tracking software when possible. As technology improves, a better iphone antenna/chipset/etc would [possibly] compensate, allowing for a more-stable system without giving EMF-worriers huge brain tumors... another possibility is that Verizon's new network will [eventually] be iphone-friendly for one reason or another, and US customers will be able to switch and get the benefits of better tracking.
The problem with the question you raise is that tracking software is proprietary, and the really good stuff is classified by the US Gov't (they don't want to share their tracking toys with the other children...). AT&T can't just borrow someone else's, and if they wrote new software from scratch there would be new errors to fix (replace OS9.2 with OSX 10.0 and watch people go berzerk when 50% of calls are dropped in the first week of go-live).
The downside: This will be an ongoing Cingular/AT&T weakness for the foreseeable future.
The upside: Software patches in a phone *can* compensate for this, to a degree, and Apple has a decent incentive to make a propriety chipset that makes the biggest receiving area while using the least amount of power/battery life...
I quoted you because you referred to EDGE as not being GSM and as 3G in reference to the "GSM variety" which it is not. The latter I understand as UMTS and W-CDMA are not as well known initialisms and 3G can mean too many things, but the former is clearly incorrect.
That is not what I said, I said EDGE is for data, not voice.
I put the GSM variety beside the 3G as EVDO (while is 3G) is data only
That is not what I said, I said EDGE is for data, not voice.
I put the GSM variety beside the 3G as EVDO (while is 3G) is data only
You are always trying to rewrite what you said even thought it's only a scroll away. You wrote, "GSM is for voice, or circuit switched data" despite GSM being the same standard used for GPRS and EDGE.
You are always trying to rewrite what you said even thought it's only a scroll away. You wrote, "GSM is for voice, or circuit switched data" despite GSM being the same standard used for GPRS and EDGE.
Now you are just getting picky
GSM is circuit switched, GPRS is a addition to enable packet switching for data.
Yes GSM can be used for data, but if you did it would be CSD, so 9.6k, or 14.4k.
For GSM package swtiched data you could use GPRS, or EDGE.
You don't use GPRS/EDGE for voice which is the point I was trying to make
You don't use GPRS/EDGE for voice which is the point I was trying to make
Then that is all you had to say. The other stuff is just confusing. Cellluar standards are so f-ing confusing as it is and the US, with their disparate systems, makes it even tougher to get a handle on.
Then that is all you had to say. The other stuff is just confusing. Cellluar standards are so f-ing confusing as it is and the US, with their disparate systems, makes it even tougher to get a handle on.
That is what I did say originally
The tower is dumb. It doesn't know if you are moving, what direction you are moving, or how fast you are moving. All it can ever know is position, and ID.
Why can it not also know signal strength? My phone knows (supposedly, if we are to trust the bars) how much of a signal I'm getting from the tower, so the tower should also know how much of a phone signal it's getting. And if that signal is strong, it should use that info in its decision-making process of whether to drop the call if it misses a cycle. If the signal had been (very) weak, then sure, maybe dropping the call is the best course of action. But if I had 5 bars, there is no way the tower should be missing any cycles, so if it does lose one, dropping the call should be its LAST option.
Is this issue the lousy logic you're referring to AT&T using?
I no longer believe the iPhone is faulty. Previously I had read reports on the Interwebs and become convinced, but after hearing about the Swedish tests that found no antenna fault I decided to buy one and it has been flawless with a strong 3G signal (admittedly I haven't had it very long). It is a great product.
IPhone is a great product or concept but execution is wanting. I've had some issues with calls but frankly the cell phone component was not a big draw. What was is the portable computer / Internet access functionality. With respect to this usage the iPhone is wanting. That mostly due to bugs in all the software. The apps (mail, Safari, contacts and the like) do what I want when they don't crash. But frankly what good is an E-Mail program that crashes after two SIMPLE messages are read.
I guess that is the #1 thing that burns my behind, mail crashes when you open up nothing but simple E-Mails. It would be a bit different if the crashes happened on really complex multi media E-Mail but this is not the case at all.
Then we get into the issue of syncing through Mobile Me. To much corruption and difficulty here. Moreso I'm wondering why a sync over USB can't fix this. Worst is trying to find the work around on Apples support web site. The killer is that all the need to do is add a button that just completely resuncs an app. So if my calendar gets screwed up I can just tap a button to get a refresh from "me.com". Seems like a good solid solution to me.
Now understand these are frustrations! I now use my iPhone every day, with crashes or other issues every day. It certainly solves a need but I did expect a little better out of Apple for core functionality. The only good thing is that I have confidence that Apple will address the bugs which is more than can be said for the majority of hand set makers.
So I won't suggest to anybody not to buy an iPhone, it is a good machine but you need to be aware of the bugs. In any event I'm hoping most of these issues are dealt with before the end of next month.
Dave
I'm pretty sure its the network. Cause up here in Toronto, Canada I usually have 4-5 bars, and my 3G access is really fast. And before this fiasco I've never heard about "dropped calls", cause I've never experienced it - with any cellphone in Canada.
I am up to 1500kbps now, which is over 10 times my EDGE. What are you getting?
By the way, how much Data Usage did you use? My Rogers bill came the other day and I only used 42 MBs for a 3 week period.