Yeah, with all the "down with the old standards" going on, I want to ask - why is there still a frecking COMBO DRIVE in Mac Mini
.
1. the Mini was designed as a transition machine and many folks in that group don't need to burn DVDs
2. there is a model with a DVD burner
3. wait and see if there's still a combo and not a super drive when they are upgraded (whenever that happens). I'm betting not. I am betting that the video out will be displayport like the new laptops so they can streamline their adapters. sucker bet there methinks
I also lament the state of Firewire. Intels lack of support ultimately set its fate. Apple has more invested in Firewire than consumers. Just the way these things go.
…and Apple keeps making money and we get to keep shelling it out patching their incessant changes of hardware and standards.
The supposed simplicity and "just works" vaporises in reality with all the missing technologies, inconsistent implementation across models, patches, conflicting ports and cables, switches in hardware and direction Steve Jobs forces on his customers.
Again, you do not get it. Without Target Disk Mode you cannot repair..
so the morons at Apple created the MacBook Air without FW knowing that it can't be repaired. that's basically what you are saying because you have to have FW to repair a drive and there's no FW on an Air.
Sorry but no. Repairing a drive generally requires that you are not booted to that drive and that is 100% doable via USB if you have an Intel Mac. if you don't then either it's probably a machine that is so old its time to replace it anyway or it came with FW which will still work just fine (this ain't no rented movie file from ITunes we are talking about)
Maybe the real issue here is about Apple's insistence that it knows what's best for it's consumers. I guess what gets me is the fact that they could offer more options.
there is such a thing as too many options.
the average user just wants the computer to work. they really don't care if something is USB or FW, they don't know the difference and won't care about the 3 seconds longer that USB takes to do something.
Pro users are the ones that want the bells and whistles which is why they are still on the Pro machines
Here's my shopping list. If I can't get it, then I wait... I postpone buying.
- Small Form Factor. 13" is fine, even 12" would work. I want very portable.
- Bright screen (usable riding in a car) LED backlight is ideal
- Fast Graphics (should be much better than low end)
- Firewire connectivity. I have two FW video cameras, several firewire hard drives, and I'm looking at portable firewire audio. I want a small form factor, not a large notebook. FireWire is the best to date. USB doesn't compare (but you knew that).
- Not too expensive, the MBP is too much.
Apple, you used to say that you don't sell stripped down computers. Now, it seems you do.
No firewire without offering a better substitute is stripping the computer down. What you should have done is offer the small connector FW 800 on the MacBook and FW 3200 on the MBP. The MBP could also offer eSATA. When we lost SCSI we got something better, FireWire. Now you're just taking away. We need high speed connectivity, not USB rubbish. We need FireWire or an Express Slot or something to work with. I would have preferred only 1 USB port, I could hang a four port hub on that. The space for the other USB could be FW. If you could do it before on a MacBook, you ought to still be able to do it. Technology is getting better, smaller, right?
We expect more from Apple. We're willing to pay something of a premium NOT to get a stripped down machine. I don't need a pro machine for travel. I have a Mac Pro.
Apple, Please don't sell stripped down machines. I won't buy them. I'll wait until you build computers I want to buy at a price I can manage. There are millions of users with FireWire Video cameras and Hard Drives. Hundreds of thousands of musicians who can't buy pro machines.
I waited a long time before I bought my Mac Pro. 8 cores, 10 GB memory. Very nice machine. Build it and we will buy. Please don't try to sell us stripped down machines. Thanks.
Can you cite any evidence where AAPL indicated it was phasing out Firewire (forget about the 400 vs. 800 argument -- that isn't the point)
They stopped shipping FW cables with iPods, then they stopped supporting FW syncing with iPods, then they released a new Mac computer that had no FW capabilities (only USB), then they stopped allowing recharging of iDevices over FW. Add that trend with the fact that most?if not all?Intel Macs had double the USB2.0 than FW400 ports and the fact that it's a dead-end port standard, unless FW800 to 3200, and USB1.0 to 2.0 to 3.0, it's not hard to see where it was going. The only question was when; now we know.
Quote:
What about loyal customers with a heavy investment in FW peripherals who require a more mobile 13 inch Macbook?
If you need to replace your current MB, then buy the old style MacBook that is now more affordable. If your argument is about FW400 and not being the kid with the shiniest toy then this cost reduction should be a welcome reprieve.
Quote:
So you agree with me that AAPL has sacrifices superior technology for the sake of marketing?
I'd love to hear how you think the removal of FW400 is being used for marketing. Extra media attention that the new machining process or new design wasn't going to get? I don't think so.
They removed it because they see it as an obsolescing tech the way PCMCIA, serial, RJ-11, parallel and floppy drives all had to be replaced. At least three of the ones I just mentioned caused the same manic among Mac faithfuls, and at least two of them offer considerably less use and had no real alternative even if bought the Pro version of their notebook.
Apple just told me to buy not only a new, spiffy laptop, but also replace all my perfectly good FireWire peripherals. I take that as a slap in the face for supporting a port that Apple has been pushing for a long time.
so do the math. how much will it cost you to buy a low end MBP v a MacBook and all new accessories.
I won't be shocked when it comes out that the Pro is cheaper.
please take the time to sign and spread the word to others!
it won't work.
because for every name you get they will have 3 sales of the machines which tells them that those 3 people don't care about the lack of FW.
and guess which one they will listen to. yep the money.
it's like the folks that whine about having to sign up with ATT for 2 years to get an iphone. if you tell them to not get the phone they are all "but I gotta have it. I just gotta"
$999 for current low end Aluminum model selling for $1299
$1299 for the current model selling for $1599
$1599 for a model with an express card slot, firewire 800, slightly faster CPU, bigger HD, discrete graphics
Or imagine if Apple had done this instead:
$99 for current low end Aluminum model selling for $1299
$129 for the current model selling for $1599
$159 for a model with an express card slot, firewire 800, slightly faster CPU, bigger HD, discrete graphics
Did I just blow your mind or what? Seriously, what is the point of lowering the price for the sake of lowering the price? They'd sell more units, but that doesn't mean more net profit. Without stating how this would benefit the company it has absolutely no value, except to say that you want the price to be lower, but as consumers we always want the price to be lower (and as elitists we want the item to be rare).
please take the time to sign and spread the word to others!
I'm going to bookmark that. Petitions to get crappy TV shows renewed can get excessive so it'll be interesting to see how many people actually sign this. The difference being that I think changing a a studios mind on a TV is much more likely than getting Apple to reintroduce a HW feature it has systematically pushed away from.
I was hoping that apple would take that out and add better graphics or an express slot. Now I hope that they take it out and put FireWire back. And no I do not want the old style MacBook with the X3100 graphics so I can have FireWire.
Apple has a history of removing technology earlier than most vendors, lots of little inconveniences but Apple is taking the Apple community in the right direction.
With Nehalem and Snow Leopard coming out about this time next year, I will hold off replacing my original MBP, alas at that time I will probably have to replace my RME firewire audio interface.....
Well, I was thinking of getting one of your new laptops, the MacBook 13", but it doesn't have a firewire port, and I kinda need one.
No you don't.
I do Steve, I have an iPod that's firewire only, my external hard drive is firewire, sure it has USB 2 also but if I use that I have to find a power outlet and use a clunky power brick and it's noticeably slower. I also have a 35mm film scanner that's firewire only.
You still have a firewire iPod? - Hahahahaha! Buy a new one, simple.
But it still works fine, I don't really see the need...
Listen Conner, do you have any idea what it costs to run a Gulfstream? Do you have any idea how much fuel that thing uses - hmmm? One load of fuel is more than your car uses in four years. Trust me, you need a new iPod.
But what about the film scanner, they're not cheap...
Film scanner? You're kidding me, right? No one still uses film.
I do. I like film, its self archiving, independent of power sources, and I have thousands invested in lenses.
Connor, do yourself a favour, trust me, get yourself a Canon 5D Mk II - I did.
But Steve, they cost over two grand! To replace my lenses would cost me another 15...
Connor, that's YOUR problem. Look, you're obviously a cheapskate, so just get yourself a USB film scanner, or better yet, just get the Pro.
But Steve, those options are another grand and...
Connor, The Gulfstream needs a new set of rubber - capiche?
Steve, but why couldn't you have just put a firewire port on it?
To save YOU money Connor. You whine and moan about replacing your hardware, but we were only thinking of you as a consumer. I'm truly disappointed that you don't appreciate our efforts on YOUR behalf.
Well, gee, sorry Steve, I guess maybe I was being a bit selfish and I didn't fully realise.......Say Steve, how much did it save?
Two dollars.
.
.
.
.
Connor, you still there?
lol yeah, except the 2$ that they saved by cutting it out didn't get passed along to you conner, it just went to the gulfstream upkeep.
LOL.
This was just premature. Lets face it, Apple just can't hold it. If USB3 was in this macbook, nobody would complain. If it had an expansion card, nobody would complain.
they ripped out firewire like 9 months too soon and didn't replace it with anything.
Apple has a history of removing technology earlier than most vendors, lots of little inconveniences but Apple is taking the Apple community in the right direction.
With Nehalem and Snow Leopard coming out about this time next year, I will hold off replacing my original MBP, alas at that time I will probably have to replace my RME firewire audio interface.....
Explain how Apple is taking us in the right direction? Where does this blind faith come from? You won't have to replace your RME (great product) unless you go with a Macbook. If you buy a Macbook you're throwing your money away.
Here's the type of performance you're looking at with USB 2.0
So in 9 months you may not call it premature, but do you think that others would be ready to buy new HW in 9 months?
[QUOTE]Lets face it, Apple just can't hold it. If USB3 was in this macbook, nobody would complain. If it had an expansion card, nobody would complain.[/qupte]
Even when USB3.0 is finished and included in Macs, the number of devices with it will probably be very slim, and the same argument that they can't use their current equipment with a new MacBook still remain.
Quote:
they ripped out firewire like 9 months too soon and didn't replace it with anything.
They done it before and I'm certain they'll do it again, but since Apple sticks with a case design for 3-4 years the only Apple-like solution would be to have not updated the MacBook case until USB3.0 is ready. The good news is that you can buy the old style MacBook or just wait a year for new Macs with USB3.0.
Who in their right mind could say that dropping Firewire for USB was a good thing?
This is is just the speed deficit you face in storage the difference for audio interfaces
in latency and realtime performance is even more severe.
Steve made the decision that was most expedient for this design goals. He wanted a thin
laptop carved from aluminum and when the space got tight he jettisoned FW and created
an artificial line of demarcation between Macbook and Macbook Pro that prior had never existed
None of those show FW400 speeds, which this conversation seems to be dominated by. I'd like to see those results. If your argument is that making FW800 only a Pro feature to push people into MBPs over MBs, then I certainly see your point. That certainly is a shady, though strategic, marketing move.
If you remove it, at least give people an advanced warning.
What sort of advanced warning do you need? It's not on the New machines, which you don't have to buy. They are not taking it away or disabling in on your existing computers...
[QUOTE=solipsism;1325854]So in 9 months you may not call it premature, but do you think that others would be ready to buy new HW in 9 months?
Quote:
Lets face it, Apple just can't hold it. If USB3 was in this macbook, nobody would complain. If it had an expansion card, nobody would complain.[/qupte]
Even when USB3.0 is finished and included in Macs, the number of devices with it will probably be very slim, and the same argument that they can't use their current equipment with a new MacBook still remain.
They done it before and I'm certain they'll do it again, but since Apple sticks with a case design for 3-4 years the only Apple-like solution would be to have not updated the MacBook case until USB3.0 is ready. The good news is that you can buy the old style MacBook or just wait a year for new Macs with USB3.0.
I guess my point was to try and replace FW with something else. an expansion card would let people use firewire if they needed it, without including it specifically. USB3 might be able to have an adaptor that could connect to firewire simply b/c it'd be so much faster than USB2.
Comments
Yeah, with all the "down with the old standards" going on, I want to ask - why is there still a frecking COMBO DRIVE in Mac Mini
.
1. the Mini was designed as a transition machine and many folks in that group don't need to burn DVDs
2. there is a model with a DVD burner
3. wait and see if there's still a combo and not a super drive when they are upgraded (whenever that happens). I'm betting not. I am betting that the video out will be displayport like the new laptops so they can streamline their adapters. sucker bet there methinks
I also lament the state of Firewire. Intels lack of support ultimately set its fate. Apple has more invested in Firewire than consumers. Just the way these things go.
…and Apple keeps making money and we get to keep shelling it out patching their incessant changes of hardware and standards.
The supposed simplicity and "just works" vaporises in reality with all the missing technologies, inconsistent implementation across models, patches, conflicting ports and cables, switches in hardware and direction Steve Jobs forces on his customers.
Again, you do not get it. Without Target Disk Mode you cannot repair..
so the morons at Apple created the MacBook Air without FW knowing that it can't be repaired. that's basically what you are saying because you have to have FW to repair a drive and there's no FW on an Air.
Sorry but no. Repairing a drive generally requires that you are not booted to that drive and that is 100% doable via USB if you have an Intel Mac. if you don't then either it's probably a machine that is so old its time to replace it anyway or it came with FW which will still work just fine (this ain't no rented movie file from ITunes we are talking about)
Maybe the real issue here is about Apple's insistence that it knows what's best for it's consumers. I guess what gets me is the fact that they could offer more options.
there is such a thing as too many options.
the average user just wants the computer to work. they really don't care if something is USB or FW, they don't know the difference and won't care about the 3 seconds longer that USB takes to do something.
Pro users are the ones that want the bells and whistles which is why they are still on the Pro machines
It's a nonissue because it can be easily fixed with a screen overlays like the ones available for the iPhone.
you mean like this
Power Support Film Set for Macbooks
same company that makes the screens apple sells in store for the phone.
Here's my shopping list. If I can't get it, then I wait... I postpone buying.
- Small Form Factor. 13" is fine, even 12" would work. I want very portable.
- Bright screen (usable riding in a car) LED backlight is ideal
- Fast Graphics (should be much better than low end)
- Firewire connectivity. I have two FW video cameras, several firewire hard drives, and I'm looking at portable firewire audio. I want a small form factor, not a large notebook. FireWire is the best to date. USB doesn't compare (but you knew that).
- Not too expensive, the MBP is too much.
Apple, you used to say that you don't sell stripped down computers. Now, it seems you do.
No firewire without offering a better substitute is stripping the computer down. What you should have done is offer the small connector FW 800 on the MacBook and FW 3200 on the MBP. The MBP could also offer eSATA. When we lost SCSI we got something better, FireWire. Now you're just taking away. We need high speed connectivity, not USB rubbish. We need FireWire or an Express Slot or something to work with. I would have preferred only 1 USB port, I could hang a four port hub on that. The space for the other USB could be FW. If you could do it before on a MacBook, you ought to still be able to do it. Technology is getting better, smaller, right?
We expect more from Apple. We're willing to pay something of a premium NOT to get a stripped down machine. I don't need a pro machine for travel. I have a Mac Pro.
Apple, Please don't sell stripped down machines. I won't buy them. I'll wait until you build computers I want to buy at a price I can manage. There are millions of users with FireWire Video cameras and Hard Drives. Hundreds of thousands of musicians who can't buy pro machines.
I waited a long time before I bought my Mac Pro. 8 cores, 10 GB memory. Very nice machine. Build it and we will buy. Please don't try to sell us stripped down machines. Thanks.
$999 for current low end Aluminum model selling for $1299
$1299 for the current model selling for $1599
$1599 for a model with an express card slot, firewire 800, slightly faster CPU, bigger HD, discrete graphics
Can you cite any evidence where AAPL indicated it was phasing out Firewire (forget about the 400 vs. 800 argument -- that isn't the point)
They stopped shipping FW cables with iPods, then they stopped supporting FW syncing with iPods, then they released a new Mac computer that had no FW capabilities (only USB), then they stopped allowing recharging of iDevices over FW. Add that trend with the fact that most?if not all?Intel Macs had double the USB2.0 than FW400 ports and the fact that it's a dead-end port standard, unless FW800 to 3200, and USB1.0 to 2.0 to 3.0, it's not hard to see where it was going. The only question was when; now we know.
What about loyal customers with a heavy investment in FW peripherals who require a more mobile 13 inch Macbook?
If you need to replace your current MB, then buy the old style MacBook that is now more affordable. If your argument is about FW400 and not being the kid with the shiniest toy then this cost reduction should be a welcome reprieve.
So you agree with me that AAPL has sacrifices superior technology for the sake of marketing?
I'd love to hear how you think the removal of FW400 is being used for marketing. Extra media attention that the new machining process or new design wasn't going to get? I don't think so.
They removed it because they see it as an obsolescing tech the way PCMCIA, serial, RJ-11, parallel and floppy drives all had to be replaced. At least three of the ones I just mentioned caused the same manic among Mac faithfuls, and at least two of them offer considerably less use and had no real alternative even if bought the Pro version of their notebook.
PS: The internal notebook optical drive is next.
Apple just told me to buy not only a new, spiffy laptop, but also replace all my perfectly good FireWire peripherals. I take that as a slap in the face for supporting a port that Apple has been pushing for a long time.
so do the math. how much will it cost you to buy a low end MBP v a MacBook and all new accessories.
I won't be shocked when it comes out that the Pro is cheaper.
http://www.petitiononline.com/MB1394/petition.html
please take the time to sign and spread the word to others!
it won't work.
because for every name you get they will have 3 sales of the machines which tells them that those 3 people don't care about the lack of FW.
and guess which one they will listen to. yep the money.
it's like the folks that whine about having to sign up with ATT for 2 years to get an iphone. if you tell them to not get the phone they are all "but I gotta have it. I just gotta"
Imagine if Apple had done this instead:
$999 for current low end Aluminum model selling for $1299
$1299 for the current model selling for $1599
$1599 for a model with an express card slot, firewire 800, slightly faster CPU, bigger HD, discrete graphics
Or imagine if Apple had done this instead:Did I just blow your mind or what? Seriously, what is the point of lowering the price for the sake of lowering the price? They'd sell more units, but that doesn't mean more net profit. Without stating how this would benefit the company it has absolutely no value, except to say that you want the price to be lower, but as consumers we always want the price to be lower (and as elitists we want the item to be rare).
http://www.petitiononline.com/MB1394/petition.html
please take the time to sign and spread the word to others!
I'm going to bookmark that. Petitions to get crappy TV shows renewed can get excessive so it'll be interesting to see how many people actually sign this. The difference being that I think changing a a studios mind on a TV is much more likely than getting Apple to reintroduce a HW feature it has systematically pushed away from.
PS: The internal notebook optical drive is next.
I hope so.
I was hoping that apple would take that out and add better graphics or an express slot. Now I hope that they take it out and put FireWire back. And no I do not want the old style MacBook with the X3100 graphics so I can have FireWire.
There is no guarantee but it makes sense.
Apple has a history of removing technology earlier than most vendors, lots of little inconveniences but Apple is taking the Apple community in the right direction.
With Nehalem and Snow Leopard coming out about this time next year, I will hold off replacing my original MBP, alas at that time I will probably have to replace my RME firewire audio interface.....
Hi Steve
Hi Connor, what can I do for you?
Well, I was thinking of getting one of your new laptops, the MacBook 13", but it doesn't have a firewire port, and I kinda need one.
No you don't.
I do Steve, I have an iPod that's firewire only, my external hard drive is firewire, sure it has USB 2 also but if I use that I have to find a power outlet and use a clunky power brick and it's noticeably slower. I also have a 35mm film scanner that's firewire only.
You still have a firewire iPod? - Hahahahaha! Buy a new one, simple.
But it still works fine, I don't really see the need...
Listen Conner, do you have any idea what it costs to run a Gulfstream? Do you have any idea how much fuel that thing uses - hmmm? One load of fuel is more than your car uses in four years. Trust me, you need a new iPod.
But what about the film scanner, they're not cheap...
Film scanner? You're kidding me, right? No one still uses film.
I do. I like film, its self archiving, independent of power sources, and I have thousands invested in lenses.
Connor, do yourself a favour, trust me, get yourself a Canon 5D Mk II - I did.
But Steve, they cost over two grand! To replace my lenses would cost me another 15...
Connor, that's YOUR problem. Look, you're obviously a cheapskate, so just get yourself a USB film scanner, or better yet, just get the Pro.
But Steve, those options are another grand and...
Connor, The Gulfstream needs a new set of rubber - capiche?
Steve, but why couldn't you have just put a firewire port on it?
To save YOU money Connor. You whine and moan about replacing your hardware, but we were only thinking of you as a consumer. I'm truly disappointed that you don't appreciate our efforts on YOUR behalf.
Well, gee, sorry Steve, I guess maybe I was being a bit selfish and I didn't fully realise.......Say Steve, how much did it save?
Two dollars.
.
.
.
.
Connor, you still there?
lol yeah, except the 2$ that they saved by cutting it out didn't get passed along to you conner, it just went to the gulfstream upkeep.
LOL.
This was just premature. Lets face it, Apple just can't hold it. If USB3 was in this macbook, nobody would complain. If it had an expansion card, nobody would complain.
they ripped out firewire like 9 months too soon and didn't replace it with anything.
Apple has a history of removing technology earlier than most vendors, lots of little inconveniences but Apple is taking the Apple community in the right direction.
With Nehalem and Snow Leopard coming out about this time next year, I will hold off replacing my original MBP, alas at that time I will probably have to replace my RME firewire audio interface.....
Explain how Apple is taking us in the right direction? Where does this blind faith come from? You won't have to replace your RME (great product) unless you go with a Macbook. If you buy a Macbook you're throwing your money away.
Here's the type of performance you're looking at with USB 2.0
Here's how eSATA, FW800 and USB 2.0 stack up
USB 2.0 Dominated
USB 2.0 Dominated
USB 2.0 Dominated
USB 2.0 Dominated
Who in their right mind could say that dropping Firewire for USB was a good thing?
This is is just the speed deficit you face in storage the difference for audio interfaces
in latency and realtime performance is even more severe.
Steve made the decision that was most expedient for this design goals. He wanted a thin
laptop carved from aluminum and when the space got tight he jettisoned FW and created
an artificial line of demarcation between Macbook and Macbook Pro that prior had never existed
This was just premature.
So in 9 months you may not call it premature, but do you think that others would be ready to buy new HW in 9 months?
[QUOTE]Lets face it, Apple just can't hold it. If USB3 was in this macbook, nobody would complain. If it had an expansion card, nobody would complain.[/qupte]
Even when USB3.0 is finished and included in Macs, the number of devices with it will probably be very slim, and the same argument that they can't use their current equipment with a new MacBook still remain.
they ripped out firewire like 9 months too soon and didn't replace it with anything.
They done it before and I'm certain they'll do it again, but since Apple sticks with a case design for 3-4 years the only Apple-like solution would be to have not updated the MacBook case until USB3.0 is ready. The good news is that you can buy the old style MacBook or just wait a year for new Macs with USB3.0.
Who in their right mind could say that dropping Firewire for USB was a good thing?
This is is just the speed deficit you face in storage the difference for audio interfaces
in latency and realtime performance is even more severe.
Steve made the decision that was most expedient for this design goals. He wanted a thin
laptop carved from aluminum and when the space got tight he jettisoned FW and created
an artificial line of demarcation between Macbook and Macbook Pro that prior had never existed
None of those show FW400 speeds, which this conversation seems to be dominated by. I'd like to see those results. If your argument is that making FW800 only a Pro feature to push people into MBPs over MBs, then I certainly see your point. That certainly is a shady, though strategic, marketing move.
If you remove it, at least give people an advanced warning.
What sort of advanced warning do you need? It's not on the New machines, which you don't have to buy. They are not taking it away or disabling in on your existing computers...
Lets face it, Apple just can't hold it. If USB3 was in this macbook, nobody would complain. If it had an expansion card, nobody would complain.[/qupte]
Even when USB3.0 is finished and included in Macs, the number of devices with it will probably be very slim, and the same argument that they can't use their current equipment with a new MacBook still remain.
They done it before and I'm certain they'll do it again, but since Apple sticks with a case design for 3-4 years the only Apple-like solution would be to have not updated the MacBook case until USB3.0 is ready. The good news is that you can buy the old style MacBook or just wait a year for new Macs with USB3.0.
I guess my point was to try and replace FW with something else. an expansion card would let people use firewire if they needed it, without including it specifically. USB3 might be able to have an adaptor that could connect to firewire simply b/c it'd be so much faster than USB2.