Unless I am missing something, FW800 was always limited to the MacBook Pro machines. The new MacBook Pros still have FW800. Hence, there is no problem for you to switch from your existing MacBook Pro to a new one.
That's not the issue. FW400 is largely obsolete, and many were expecting FW3200 to replace it quickly and with backward compatibility. Apple's removal of FW from its biggest seller has now damaged Firewire's standing in the market for almost anyone who uses it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trip1ex
Come on folks. It's not like we all aren't going to replace our old USB2 and FW400 storage devices with USB3, power over eSata spec or FW3200 devices in a few years anyway.
Jobs probably saved us all some money there by not putting a FW400 port in the MB.
Also not like you can't buy new external cases for your current external drives. USB ones are dirt cheap.
How has he saved us money if we have to go out and buy new cases?
I bought a USB 2.0 drive from Costco awhile back and the thing is incomparable to Firewire's performance.
With Time Machine being the best feature of the latest OS, MacBook users have seen their user experience downgraded for no good reason.
It's true that the refugees coming in from the Windows side won't care.
But these are former Windows users, so what do they know about good computing experiences anyway?
The way I see it, removing firewire from the new MacBook was a very unfriendly move on Apple's part that makes everyone's life a little harder without any appreciable benefit to anyone but Apple. Camcorder connectivity is just one of the many thorny issues that Mac users now face. How, for example, does one transfer data from an older Mac to a new MacBook without using Migration Assistant, which requires firewire? Perhaps ethernet can be used, but ethernet's much slower transfer speed means it will take an entire afternoon just to migrate your data.
SCSII was really long in the tooth when Apple dropped it in favor of USB and firewire. This abrupt and unexpected transition, on the other hand, is like a bombshell out of the blue that scatters shrapnel everywhere, hurting a whole lotta people. Bad for you, Apple.
Apple is the dear friend who steals your sandwich while you look at his pretty new computer.
None of this is a reason why Intel could not have supported FireWire in 1999 when it was clearly a better technology than USB.
At 99' comdex when we asked about Firewire showing up in the P4 board chip design or even PIII the answer was an emphatic NO. The reason we were told was 1) it's too expensive to license even for servers 2) Nobody in the PC world was using them 3) The PIII Non-Xeon's could not handle or keep up with the threshold of FW thus there was no reason 4) Other manufactures were building PCI based import cards (Now PCI was running at 33mhz and could NOT keep up with firewire 400 speeds). Intel was working on 2.0 USB as their answer to FW bus speeds.
USB is JUST a serial interface, FW is more than that.
The reason for the question was RAMBUS (now dead) and the P4's ability to process video at amazing rates (equaling a PowerPC chip). Lucas Films was one of the test studies/cases where the P4 would speed up graphic processing times and allowed for real-time video importing.... Hence the question about firewire.
If only that were true. In fact is a priced like a Mac Pro but very neutered. No Express card, so discrete graphics, and no firewire. So basically you pay for a Mac Pro but lose most of the "Pro" features.
It has the best discrete graphics. To look at it glass half full, the new MB is on par with last years MBP.
You've just hit upon the crux of the issue. The Macbook was a good computer for field recording and ingesting of video. Much like the MPAA and RIAA consider an illegally downloaded song a "missing CD album" sale ..Apple must be looking at each Macbook sale as a potential Macbook Pro sale that didn't happen.
Removing FW from the Macbook removes that ability and pushes people towards the MBP. It's a benefit to Apple but does nothing for people.
Is it wrong for a consumer to seek a financial benefit and work towards their own best self interest?
Perhaps a USB 2.0 MacBook was some kind of a concession to Intel since they lost the graphics chip business.
and pick up a Macbook with FW400 that was top of the line till 2 days ago? That should last you another couple of years before it's obsolete, by which time this will be a total non-issue. Unless, of course, your definition of "screwing over" people means "Apple won't give me what *I* want! It's all about ME ME ME!"
Actually, it is all about ME!. Since myself and others are the ones who purchase these products. Sorry, but I can no longer abide by the decisions coming out of Cupertino. I have decided my next laptop will not be a Mac, it will be something else, and it will be running Linux. As for the rest of the ecosystem, I will not be buying an iPhone this month either. People (meaning consumers) need to hold these companies liable for all they do. As far as I am concerned, I will be using the iTunes front end through Cross Over, and from then on, not using it at all. I am extremely disappointed in this latest round of refreshes. Form over function indeed.
That's not the issue. FW400 is largely obsolete, and many were expecting FW3200 to replace it quickly and with backward compatibility. Apple's removal of FW from its biggest seller has now damaged Firewire's standing in the market for almost anyone who uses it.
How has he saved us money if we have to go out and buy new cases?
I bought a USB 2.0 drive from Costco awhile back and the thing is incomparable to Firewire's performance.
With Time Machine being the best feature of the latest OS, MacBook users have seen their user experience downgraded for no good reason.
It's true that the refugees coming in from the Windows side won't care.
But these are former Windows users, so what do they know about good computing experiences anyway?
'Cause you're not going to mistakenly buy any more FW400 devices going forward.
And hell some of you won't buy a new laptop now either. That's an even bigger savings.
Everyone bitching should take heed that the next-gen of interfaces are coming very soon anyway. And they should put off buying any device with a FW400 port or USB2 port if they can help it.
Apple is being very stubborn and STUPID with this decision. In any consumers eyes it is always better to have MORE interface not LESS. The removal of FW doesn't make anything easier (something I thought apple was all about), it only makes it more difficult for EVERYONE. For those who have never used, and may not ever use firewire....you don't know what you're missing!
I am a musician hence I don't need dedicated graphics cards in my laptops (main difference between MB and MBP). #1. Why would I pony up the money for a "Pro" class machine when it won't be any faster than the "Consumer" class machine, for the work I do? #2 Pro Tools is MUCH happier to use a FW drive than a USB drive. #3 You cannot STREAM uncompressed content from most "Comsumer" class cameras. #4 You have little support for Deck Control via. USB #5 I'll pay $5 more for a laptop if that's how much it cost to implement it!
Apple doesn't get it! I love APPL to death. I think they are the Sony of the 80's, but in todays standard. Currently they are making HUGE mistakes with their Mac platform. They have forgotten where they came from and who helped them get to where they are today. They are becoming the Chevy of the industry...used to embody soul and spirit and now it's just another box. Pretty lame box at that. Considering most of us Mac people are smart enough to know that the best games are played on consoles, and we don't need faster graphics for most of what we do, I would recommend not buying ANY new Mac. Let them know how you feel. I won't upgrade from a MB to a MBP just for FW and you shouldn't have to either.
It has the best discrete graphics. To look at it glass half full, the new MB is on par with last years MBP.
How do you figure that? No Express card slot, no firewire, no discrete graphics card means it is not the same at all. At least with that MBP you will be able to use USB3 and FW 3200 when they are available. The Macbook is more similar to the very first iMac that came out with only USB 1. It was obsolete as soon as you bought it.
Why does Apple use screen size as a determining factor for pro models anyway? Some of the cheapest laptops you can buy are 15" and 17" inch. If Apple really wants to quiet this discontent they will give us some smaller Macbook Pro's and some larger Macbooks.
Is it not possible to transfer data from a camcorder to a dual-interfaced USB/FireWire disk? I mean, do the camcorders always act as slaves, or can they also be masters and transfer to an external peripheral?
You need an encoding chip somewhere to write the file. You do get drives like the Firestore and Quickstream that capture to a drive but the kicker is they're firewire-only too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EauVive
Someone wondered why they did not sacrifice the Gigabit Ethernet port for a USB to Ethernet adapter. But that's a joke: the USB throughput is a fraction only of what a GigaEthernet port can achieve...
I was one of a few who suggested firewire instead of ethernet. Ethernet is most often used for network traffic and that's typically much lower bandwidth than firewire devices. Remember, this is a consumer device and consumers are far less likely to have gigabit network switches in their house than firewire devices.
The only downside would have been that ethernet would top out at half its maximum speed but 60MB/s theoretical max is still 3 times higher than the built-in laptop's 20MB/s average so a slower ethernet doesn't make one bit of difference.
Not to mention, a few people use wifi now as it is.
So, keeping ethernet means you can't use the thousands of firewire products out there and most camcorders.
Keeping firewire, the worst that would have happened is that ethernet transfers would top out at 60MB/s but a laptop drive only handles 20MB/s anyway so there's no issue doing this.
Conclusion: either Apple picked the wrong port to go with through not thinking it through properly or they deliberately left it out to force people to buy the MBP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LE Studios
Then buy a MacBook Pro what idiot would run a high end audio/video editing with a MacBook? That's why they made a MacBook Pro line to begin with!
If there was still a firewire port, you could edit on both equally well. Both screens are really too small so you'd use an external interface. The MBP offers nothing now except firewire. You'd be better off with the MBP as you get the option for faster drives too now so it's better to get a MB and bump up the drive spec vs getting a base MBP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich
Then why is everyone crying about this?
The firewire -> USB solutions are not Mac compatible and they aren't as good as direct firewire. It should just take a driver and someone (Belkin?) is bound to capitalize on it ripping people off more.
Comments
Unless I am missing something, FW800 was always limited to the MacBook Pro machines. The new MacBook Pros still have FW800. Hence, there is no problem for you to switch from your existing MacBook Pro to a new one.
That's not the issue. FW400 is largely obsolete, and many were expecting FW3200 to replace it quickly and with backward compatibility. Apple's removal of FW from its biggest seller has now damaged Firewire's standing in the market for almost anyone who uses it.
Come on folks. It's not like we all aren't going to replace our old USB2 and FW400 storage devices with USB3, power over eSata spec or FW3200 devices in a few years anyway.
Jobs probably saved us all some money there by not putting a FW400 port in the MB.
Also not like you can't buy new external cases for your current external drives. USB ones are dirt cheap.
How has he saved us money if we have to go out and buy new cases?
I bought a USB 2.0 drive from Costco awhile back and the thing is incomparable to Firewire's performance.
With Time Machine being the best feature of the latest OS, MacBook users have seen their user experience downgraded for no good reason.
It's true that the refugees coming in from the Windows side won't care.
But these are former Windows users, so what do they know about good computing experiences anyway?
All you need is a simple cable
USB to Firewire
It encapsulates DV in USB Video Class. Needs no drivers since 10.4.9.
No recompression - it's the original DV stream!
And this has been available for over four years.
http://www.everythingusb.com/news/index/3889.htm
Then why is everyone crying about this?
The way I see it, removing firewire from the new MacBook was a very unfriendly move on Apple's part that makes everyone's life a little harder without any appreciable benefit to anyone but Apple. Camcorder connectivity is just one of the many thorny issues that Mac users now face. How, for example, does one transfer data from an older Mac to a new MacBook without using Migration Assistant, which requires firewire? Perhaps ethernet can be used, but ethernet's much slower transfer speed means it will take an entire afternoon just to migrate your data.
SCSII was really long in the tooth when Apple dropped it in favor of USB and firewire. This abrupt and unexpected transition, on the other hand, is like a bombshell out of the blue that scatters shrapnel everywhere, hurting a whole lotta people. Bad for you, Apple.
Apple is the dear friend who steals your sandwich while you look at his pretty new computer.
None of this is a reason why Intel could not have supported FireWire in 1999 when it was clearly a better technology than USB.
At 99' comdex when we asked about Firewire showing up in the P4 board chip design or even PIII the answer was an emphatic NO. The reason we were told was 1) it's too expensive to license even for servers 2) Nobody in the PC world was using them 3) The PIII Non-Xeon's could not handle or keep up with the threshold of FW thus there was no reason 4) Other manufactures were building PCI based import cards (Now PCI was running at 33mhz and could NOT keep up with firewire 400 speeds). Intel was working on 2.0 USB as their answer to FW bus speeds.
USB is JUST a serial interface, FW is more than that.
The reason for the question was RAMBUS (now dead) and the P4's ability to process video at amazing rates (equaling a PowerPC chip). Lucas Films was one of the test studies/cases where the P4 would speed up graphic processing times and allowed for real-time video importing.... Hence the question about firewire.
Then why is everyone crying about this?
Because people who think a cord with USB and Firewire on each end solves this problem don't understand the problem, or much of anything in general.
If only that were true. In fact is a priced like a Mac Pro but very neutered. No Express card, so discrete graphics, and no firewire. So basically you pay for a Mac Pro but lose most of the "Pro" features.
It has the best discrete graphics. To look at it glass half full, the new MB is on par with last years MBP.
You've just hit upon the crux of the issue. The Macbook was a good computer for field recording and ingesting of video. Much like the MPAA and RIAA consider an illegally downloaded song a "missing CD album" sale ..Apple must be looking at each Macbook sale as a potential Macbook Pro sale that didn't happen.
Removing FW from the Macbook removes that ability and pushes people towards the MBP. It's a benefit to Apple but does nothing for people.
Is it wrong for a consumer to seek a financial benefit and work towards their own best self interest?
Perhaps a USB 2.0 MacBook was some kind of a concession to Intel since they lost the graphics chip business.
I did not know that Apple took away the FireWire port that used to be in your Macbook!!! They're really screwing over people, aren't they?
Oh, you're talking about a laptop you haven't bought yet? Then why not go to
http://store.apple.com/us/browse/hom...ls?mco=MTE3NzE
and pick up a Macbook with FW400 that was top of the line till 2 days ago? That should last you another couple of years before it's obsolete, by which time this will be a total non-issue. Unless, of course, your definition of "screwing over" people means "Apple won't give me what *I* want! It's all about ME ME ME!"
Actually, it is all about ME!. Since myself and others are the ones who purchase these products. Sorry, but I can no longer abide by the decisions coming out of Cupertino. I have decided my next laptop will not be a Mac, it will be something else, and it will be running Linux. As for the rest of the ecosystem, I will not be buying an iPhone this month either. People (meaning consumers) need to hold these companies liable for all they do. As far as I am concerned, I will be using the iTunes front end through Cross Over, and from then on, not using it at all. I am extremely disappointed in this latest round of refreshes. Form over function indeed.
Time Capsule. No FireWire.
I agree.
I think the MB was designed to help sell other Apple peripherals like TC and the new ACD with the extra USB ports and charger.
That's not the issue. FW400 is largely obsolete, and many were expecting FW3200 to replace it quickly and with backward compatibility. Apple's removal of FW from its biggest seller has now damaged Firewire's standing in the market for almost anyone who uses it.
How has he saved us money if we have to go out and buy new cases?
I bought a USB 2.0 drive from Costco awhile back and the thing is incomparable to Firewire's performance.
With Time Machine being the best feature of the latest OS, MacBook users have seen their user experience downgraded for no good reason.
It's true that the refugees coming in from the Windows side won't care.
But these are former Windows users, so what do they know about good computing experiences anyway?
'Cause you're not going to mistakenly buy any more FW400 devices going forward.
And hell some of you won't buy a new laptop now either. That's an even bigger savings.
Everyone bitching should take heed that the next-gen of interfaces are coming very soon anyway. And they should put off buying any device with a FW400 port or USB2 port if they can help it.
I am a musician hence I don't need dedicated graphics cards in my laptops (main difference between MB and MBP). #1. Why would I pony up the money for a "Pro" class machine when it won't be any faster than the "Consumer" class machine, for the work I do? #2 Pro Tools is MUCH happier to use a FW drive than a USB drive. #3 You cannot STREAM uncompressed content from most "Comsumer" class cameras. #4 You have little support for Deck Control via. USB #5 I'll pay $5 more for a laptop if that's how much it cost to implement it!
Apple doesn't get it! I love APPL to death. I think they are the Sony of the 80's, but in todays standard. Currently they are making HUGE mistakes with their Mac platform. They have forgotten where they came from and who helped them get to where they are today. They are becoming the Chevy of the industry...used to embody soul and spirit and now it's just another box. Pretty lame box at that. Considering most of us Mac people are smart enough to know that the best games are played on consoles, and we don't need faster graphics for most of what we do, I would recommend not buying ANY new Mac. Let them know how you feel. I won't upgrade from a MB to a MBP just for FW and you shouldn't have to either.
It has the best discrete graphics. To look at it glass half full, the new MB is on par with last years MBP.
How do you figure that? No Express card slot, no firewire, no discrete graphics card means it is not the same at all. At least with that MBP you will be able to use USB3 and FW 3200 when they are available. The Macbook is more similar to the very first iMac that came out with only USB 1. It was obsolete as soon as you bought it.
Why does Apple use screen size as a determining factor for pro models anyway? Some of the cheapest laptops you can buy are 15" and 17" inch. If Apple really wants to quiet this discontent they will give us some smaller Macbook Pro's and some larger Macbooks.
Then why is everyone crying about this?
Because they like to.
Just talked to Belkin.
Their Hi-Speed USB 2.0 and FireWire 6-Port Hub works the new Macbook!
http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProdu...duct_Id=199941
My apology. It is just a hub.
Is it not possible to transfer data from a camcorder to a dual-interfaced USB/FireWire disk? I mean, do the camcorders always act as slaves, or can they also be masters and transfer to an external peripheral?
You need an encoding chip somewhere to write the file. You do get drives like the Firestore and Quickstream that capture to a drive but the kicker is they're firewire-only too.
Someone wondered why they did not sacrifice the Gigabit Ethernet port for a USB to Ethernet adapter. But that's a joke: the USB throughput is a fraction only of what a GigaEthernet port can achieve...
I was one of a few who suggested firewire instead of ethernet. Ethernet is most often used for network traffic and that's typically much lower bandwidth than firewire devices. Remember, this is a consumer device and consumers are far less likely to have gigabit network switches in their house than firewire devices.
The only downside would have been that ethernet would top out at half its maximum speed but 60MB/s theoretical max is still 3 times higher than the built-in laptop's 20MB/s average so a slower ethernet doesn't make one bit of difference.
Not to mention, a few people use wifi now as it is.
So, keeping ethernet means you can't use the thousands of firewire products out there and most camcorders.
Keeping firewire, the worst that would have happened is that ethernet transfers would top out at 60MB/s but a laptop drive only handles 20MB/s anyway so there's no issue doing this.
Conclusion: either Apple picked the wrong port to go with through not thinking it through properly or they deliberately left it out to force people to buy the MBP.
Then buy a MacBook Pro what idiot would run a high end audio/video editing with a MacBook? That's why they made a MacBook Pro line to begin with!
If there was still a firewire port, you could edit on both equally well. Both screens are really too small so you'd use an external interface. The MBP offers nothing now except firewire. You'd be better off with the MBP as you get the option for faster drives too now so it's better to get a MB and bump up the drive spec vs getting a base MBP.
Then why is everyone crying about this?
The firewire -> USB solutions are not Mac compatible and they aren't as good as direct firewire. It should just take a driver and someone (Belkin?) is bound to capitalize on it ripping people off more.
Ironic that the picture MTOU uses is of the firewire version.
No it isn't.
No it isn't.
Yes it, is That cable is connected to the FW800. And its the ultra-like Mk3 as well.
How do you figure that? No Express card slot, no firewire, no discrete graphics card means it is not the same at all.
Performance wise its on par. New discrete cards have the same or better performance that last years dedicated.