2 years is a long time. What made FW400 obsolete today? eSATA is more common (needs to be in the MBP really), USB2 video cams are more common, NAS are more common in homes and 802.11N.
With up to a TB available via 802.11N on Time Capsule you don't need to be tethered via cable except when you need a lot of speed. In which case gigE is faster then FW400.
OK off you go, try transferring large files via wifi - something you have obviously never done - I have tried (between Mac Pro 2008 and Macbook Pro 2007 both on 802.11n) and the result is a lot less spectacular than you think...
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
The biggest loss for FW400 for MOST folks is for connecting to FW based video cams.
No. Please show me a pro quality audio interface equipped with FW800 (I think there're one or two that exist). If the multi-billion dollar pro-audio industry still uses FW400 as standard how can you claim it's obselete ? Just because a few lower end items are now available in USB2 ?
Did you realise you can buy USB microphones too ? Are you going to tell us that USB will replace XLR connections ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
Just because you have FW400 on a drive no longer means it works any faster than on USB2.
You can't take one example of a bad implementation of FW400 and use it to prove anything. Even in the article you quote, the writer says that "the Maxtor OneTouch’s FireWire 400 port actually lagged that of its USB port in the Duplicate File and Low Memory tests, which is atypical in a hard drive"...
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
2) External drives today should be eSATA for performance and Apple is behind by using FW. Apple's only saving grace is the expresscard on the MBP.
You're welcome to purchase non-hot swappable external hard drives, but why you'd do that to plug them into a portable notebook is beyond me... USB or FW are the way to go for portable equipment - but you pick the technology which suits your application. If it's just photos and the occasional word document (ie read/write uni-directional transfer) then USB2 is fine, if it's pro-audio etc then FW is needed (provided your drive/device is optimised for this and isn't a Maxtor OneTouch \)
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
The only thing that FW400 ISN'T obsolete for is (older) video and pro-audio.
Your only point that closely resembles reason so far... but you forget that many high end, brand new video cameras (eg HV30) are FW based.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
GigE over USB is pointless.
Agreed. (see below) GigE is useless for notebooks as an external device connection medium - but it should still be included on notebooks for the case that you need to connecting to an established network (like a non wifi internet server or a work network).
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
I'd MUCH rather have GigE than FW800 if I could only have one.
So you're give all this 'good advice' on technologies that you don't own (ie have no experience with).
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
1394c (Firewire S800T aka FW on RJ45) is only theoretical at this point and IP over FW is essentially dead since MS killed support on Vista. Likewise 1394b (FW800) is not supported in Vista despite promises to the contrary.
So FW800 is essentially dead as well. I'd rather buy a new camera than give up the ability to connect to a network at wire speeds.
So basically you're comparing login based networking technologies (ESata and GigE) with hot swappable technologies... good luck with that one.
Oh and to avoid ridicule I wouldn't be basing anything on decisions made in Vista...
Come to think of it, why don't you go out and buy a nice brand new ESata or GigE external storage case (as I did) and see how much you like it. Not only do you have to log in (via Bonjour) every time (with minutes of delay), but many these things are designed to be left on permanently (it's essentially server technology). Try doing that in the studio or at starbucks to retrieve a couple of backed up files quickly.
I think the missing FW ports is a mistake. What am I to do with my FW HDD and camera. Removing FW is one thing, but to not offer an alternative I'm flabbergasted.
I think the missing FW ports is a mistake. What am I to do with my FW HDD and camera. Removing FW is one thing, but to not offer an alternative I'm flabbergasted.
Great question.
Better Question:
Why would you want to upgrade your current Macbook?
For sure:
It is probably faster.
It has everything you need and are using now.
You don't have to upgrade anything.
Both the old 2.1 and 2.4 outperform the new machines, e.g., re Cinema 4D Rendering, and they match or better iMovie HD Aged Effect[/INDENT]
Where are all those guys, and some of them are here, that used to complain that Apple was ignoring gamers?
Notice the silence:
Now gamers can have 5 times the Frame Rates in Quake 4, for example.
In Summary:
Keep the status quo and save money
If you have already invested in FW Drives or FW video equipment you can't live without, it would appear that the worst thing you should do is go anywhere near the new Macbooks.
Move up and enjoy the new standard
If you are just starting to get involved in this medium, best you go with what is now becoming the new standard for consumer level use, i.e., go for USB 2.
Leap and salivate
If you are a serious video editing and gaming on a laptop, your best option is to suck it up and go for the ultimate, i.e., the new Macbook Pro.
If you look back people have complained about things that are way more important than if the new MacBook has firewire or not so why is this such a big deal.
you are right, sure. But they have to investigate carefully to define what they include and what not. It's not true, that almost all camcorders support USB and as I ivestigated in different forums about this issue. USB to Firewire adapters don't work in 100% of all cases. E.g. I have a HDV Camcorder from Canon and it doesn't support USB. A lot of semi/prof camcorder don't do it either.
I confess to being drawn back to this thread over and over, and a couple things really amaze me:
1. The number of people who accuse Apple of being greedy by tuning product line feature sets to force the market to make a buying decision favorable to their bottom line. I'm surprised many people don't realize this procedure is done by nearly every successful manufacturer in the world today. Companies make products to sell so the stockholders make money. If Steve makes a decision for Apple, and it upsets the market's processes (including the third party accessory manufacturers) but makes Apple more money, then he has successfully done the only thing he gets paid for by Apple. If it backfires and nobody buys the product because of the decision, then we can call him an idiot. If they are releasing the MacBook without FW this month to grab up early sales and another better one is released next month with FW included, or even a full-featured 13" MBP -- then we can call him greedy and shameful.
2. The number of people who think that because Apple makes some wonderfully cool products, they would never intentionally, stupidly, or even accidentally produce a real piece of crap. For those reader/posters who have never had to fight the drawbacks of these products, you are fortunate. Those of you who didn't have to lobby a skeptical IT department for new Macs only to end up with some of these, you can't image how much better your life is for not having lived with this. Take a deep breath to calm down and go read on the history of Apple's mistakes at lowendmac.com/roadapples.
That said, I am not calling people who think "Apple is greedy" stupid, just seriously naive about business. And I'm not calling the new MacBook a piece of crap -- I'm sure it's a really nice computer, but I personally think it would have been much better and more useful if there was an ExpressCard port that let users add on FireWire, extra USB, eSATA, memory card readers, etc., all of which could have been sold by Apple at high markup. To me, spending gobs of money on accessories that let me use my computers the way I want to is never as bad as NOT being able to get the configuration I want no matter how much you try to add on..
you are right, sure. But they have to investigate carefully to define what they include and what not. It's not true, that almost all camcorders support USB and as I ivestigated in different forums about this issue. USB to Firewire adapters don't work in 100% of all cases. E.g. I have a HDV Camcorder from Canon and it doesn't support USB. A lot of semi/prof camcorder don't do it either.
And even if there are a lot of USB 2.0 Camcorders out there, this does not change the fact that the expensive Canon XL-1 that I use and is still running fine uses Firewire. I'm not going to replace a camera that still works fine, just because of a change in the interface, especially when the camera costs more than the computer. I am a MacBook Pro User so this isn't a big deal yet, I just hope it is not a new trend going to the rest of the lines.
Take a crow bar to your wallets and step up to the MBP....ya cheap bastards.
Or go buy an adapter for the real cheap asses.
Think about it, you will be helping the economy.
This is DimMok....and I approve this message.
You're cheap if you don't want to have to but a large heavy, $2000 to get what your previous iBook, Macbook, or 12" PB already had? The reality distortion is in full force here.
You're cheap if you don't want to have to but a large heavy, $2000 to get what your previous iBook, Macbook, or 12" PB already had? The reality distortion is in full force here.
Anyone who would use a cable with Firewire on one end and USB on the other does not understand how basic computing technology works and should be legally barred from using a Mac.
With what? That USB2 dominated the market even 2 years ago? Done. That eSATA was the emerging new high speed external disk interface? Done.
Quote:
ditto...
Already did. Vista...no support for FW800 despite promises to do so. Very few FW800 enclosures (RAID or otherwise) in comparison to eSATA enclosures.
FW800 today for most folks (even Pros) is not all that important. There are certainly SOME Pros with a significant use for it but I can see Apple dropping even FW800 in a couple three years and assuming that folks that need it will get an expresscard with it.
Quote:
OK off you go, try transferring large files via wifi - something you have obviously never done - I have tried (between Mac Pro 2008 and Macbook Pro 2007 both on 802.11n) and the result is a lot less spectacular than you think...
Gee, I guess I must be imagining using my MBP with my Timecapsule on a daily basis. And TC is not blazing as a NAS. Here's a brilliant news flash for you:
Big assed files take a long assed time regardless of technology. When I back up everything to an external drive for offsite storage it goes overnight.
Quote:
No. Please show me a pro quality audio interface equipped with FW800 (I think there're one or two that exist). If the multi-billion dollar pro-audio industry still uses FW400 as standard how can you claim it's obselete ? Just because a few lower end items are now available in USB2 ?
Which part of "most folks" confuse you? Do you believe that the pro-audio crowd is a significant number of folks?
Quote:
Did you realise you can buy USB microphones too ? Are you going to tell us that USB will replace XLR connections ?
Again, which part of most folks confuses you?
Quote:
You can't take one example of a bad implementation of FW400 and use it to prove anything. Even in the article you quote, the writer says that "the Maxtor OneTouch?s FireWire 400 port actually lagged that of its USB port in the Duplicate File and Low Memory tests, which is atypical in a hard drive"...
There's no proof involved. Just that Seagate says that Apple has improved it's USB2 drivers.
Besides, the number of crappy external drive implementations are far larger than you may think. Also the small external drives like the LaCie Little Disks are slower than heck. Wanna bet that the speed difference isn't all that much?
Quote:
You're welcome to purchase non-hot swappable external hard drives, but why you'd do that to plug them into a portable notebook is beyond me... USB or FW are the way to go for portable equipment - but you pick the technology which suits your application.
That's why. Besides, who the hell hot swaps 1 TB RAID arrays? Yes, FW400 is faster than USB2. But who cares with large files sizes? Slow isn't much better than Dog Slow.
Quote:
If it's just photos and the occasional word document (ie read/write uni-directional transfer) then USB2 is fine, if it's pro-audio etc then FW is needed (provided your drive/device is optimised for this and isn't a Maxtor OneTouch \)
Again, since you seem to lack reading comprehension, MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT AUDIO PROS.
Quote:
Your only point that closely resembles reason so far... but you forget that many high end, brand new video cameras (eg HV30) are FW based.
Probably not for very long as FW dies.
Quote:
Agreed. (see below) GigE is useless for notebooks as an external device connection medium - but it should still be included on notebooks for the case that you need to connecting to an established network (like a non wifi internet server or a work network).
Still reading challenged I see. GigE is useless over a USB2 dongle because you're limted by the USB interface. GigE is VERY useful for notebooks because it's fast and wireless isn't always available/working. When I need to do a large transfer to TimeCapsule I'll plug in directly into the device. This is faster than my FW400 drive.
Quote:
So you're give all this 'good advice' on technologies that you don't own (ie have no experience with).
I have FW800 on my MBP. I use FW400 for my tiny little drive and for my video camera. I use eSATA in my lab. I use 802.11N and gigE to my TC and at work. Which technology do I NOT use?
Quote:
So basically you're comparing login based networking technologies (ESata and GigE) with hot swappable technologies... good luck with that one.
No, I'm comparing technology that's used every day vs ones that only exist on paper.
Quote:
Oh and to avoid ridicule I wouldn't be basing anything on decisions made in Vista...
Yeah, because 90% market share makes Microsoft irrelevant.
Quote:
Come to think of it, why don't you go out and buy a nice brand new ESata or GigE external storage case (as I did) and see how much you like it. Not only do you have to log in (via Bonjour) every time (with minutes of delay), but many these things are designed to be left on permanently (it's essentially server technology). Try doing that in the studio or at starbucks to retrieve a couple of backed up files quickly.
How odd...I use my TC every day, sometimes over GigE. I VPN back to my work shares while at starbucks to get at files I might have forgotten. If I need a multi GB fiile, yes, then I'll bother to plug in my external drive. USB2 or FW400 makes little difference at that point.
For working for real...I'd rather have a eSATA drive sitting in my bag than FW400. And yes, you CAN hotplug eSATA given that it's in the SATA II spec if you have AHCI and 10.5.x. Depends on the implementation for the expresscard eSATA how well that really works though...
I confess to being drawn back to this thread over and over, and a couple things really amaze me:
2. The number of people who think that because Apple makes some wonderfully cool products, they would never intentionally, stupidly, or even accidentally produce a real piece of crap. ... Take a deep breath to calm down and go read on the history of Apple's mistakes at lowendmac.com/roadapples.
They forgot / left out the worst: the super-unreliable Apple III.
They forgot / left out the worst: the super-unreliable Apple III.
Hey, watch what you say. My Apple III was flawless, and I did a crapload of movie and television scripts on that machine. And I don't care if my Apple III was the only good one of the bunch -- don't say bad things about my baby (which I then retired after a few years of faithful work, and a card that fit inside that transferred files over to DOS stuff if I recall correctly).
People have just been used to buying Apples and having FIrewire 400, but Firewire 400 is like USB 1 and USB 1 is going away in place of USB2. So, it is just a progression. I am sure the same discussion will happen if and when Apple comes out with FIrewire 1600 or Firewire 3200, or FIrewire 6400.
Yes, but Apple did NOT include a replacement port for FW400 on the MacBook. No comparison.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell
Yes we've discussed audio several times and several time its been suggested that you have the option of:
-Continuing to use your current machine
-Purchase the earlier MacBook for $999
-Purchase a new or earlier MacBook Pro.
-4 of Apple's 6 computers use FW, choose any one
-Until that dies.
-Until that is no longer available
-If one has the money to do so (not everyone can afford to thus a 'forced' upsell)
-What if you need portability? Then you have one option - the Pro. Got the $$$'s?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell
Apple agreed to support Blu-ray, but ultimately its still Sony's format. Steve noted the high price of licensing fees is why Apple is in no rush to adopt Blu-ray.
Sounds familiar? Pot-Kettle-Black! Maybe FireWire would be a much more 'popular' technology if Apple had licensed the technology at a more affordable price to other manufacturers at the outset rather than having to have it's hand forced on the issue? Look.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DimMok
Bottom line, this is about money. It always is.
Take a crow bar to your wallets and step up to the MBP....ya cheap bastards.
Or go buy an adapter for the real cheap asses.
Think about it, you will be helping the economy.
This is DimMok....and I approve this message.
You're an idiot. For all those who did not take the time to read through this thread...
You cannot buy an 'adaptor' that will run as effectively or as fast as FireWire.
Any operational functions that you may have had through FireWire will be lost.
No native Mac OS support.
USB is not a viable alternative for semi/pro audio/video work.
Reading Arstechnica. Which is more PC centric than AI.
When people on Ars boards complain about FW. The response from other board memebers is "who cares, I haven't used FireWire in years".
It used to be a day when Mac users were productive with their Macs and thus they could articulate the advantages of technologies.
Mac users used to be "with it" regarding technology. They used to buy more more peripherals (proportionately) and had a general love for technology that was well integrated.
Today ..being a Mac users just isn't the same. I'm sure the old foggy will always reminisce about the "good ole days" and conveniently forget the negative.
Today though there are so many computer users who have varying levels of ignorance and incuriosity wrapped with a severe lack foresight.
Apple laptops used to be the perfect blend of performance and functionality wrapped in high style. These new laptops are gorgeous but they don't just don't excite me from a functionlity standpoint.
Is it fun to complain vociferously about perceived injustice? No. But we and vendors alike who have invested in Firewire deserve better. Frankly the cost for Apple to support us is relatively miniscule.
Yes, but Apple did NOT include a replacement port for FW400 on the MacBook. No comparison.
Sure they did. Not being backwards compatible to FW400, it is effectively a little slower for the time being and/or doesn't work with your current equipment doesn't mean it's not Apple's "replacement" for FW400. It only means that that it's inconvenient for a small group of people.
The original MacBook Pro user didn't have any DL-DVD burner, despite this being a feature on the 15" PowerBook. And all that money in PCMCIA cards were wasted if you wanted to upgrade to a MacBook Pro because it used ExpressCard/34. Which, by the way, was shipped effectively useless as their was no cards available, yet now people can't imagine a MBP without it.
PS: Even if Apple added FW800 to the MacBook there would still be detractors claiming that now they now have to carry a FW800-to-FW400 adaptor with them.
You realize that Apple is a big member of the BluRay consortium, right?
But Apple not only doesn't make their own drives as does Sony, but they don't make the components of the drives to sell to others as Sony also does. Big difference. Apple's belonging to the consortium has nothing to do with much when it comes to licensing fees. They still have to pay them to the format owners, which is mainly Sony. Sony has no licensing fees to pay, as the owners of the format wave those fees amongst themselves.
Comments
FW400 was borderline 2 years ago.
Back this up...
FW800 is borderline today.
ditto...
2 years is a long time. What made FW400 obsolete today? eSATA is more common (needs to be in the MBP really), USB2 video cams are more common, NAS are more common in homes and 802.11N.
With up to a TB available via 802.11N on Time Capsule you don't need to be tethered via cable except when you need a lot of speed. In which case gigE is faster then FW400.
OK off you go, try transferring large files via wifi - something you have obviously never done - I have tried (between Mac Pro 2008 and Macbook Pro 2007 both on 802.11n) and the result is a lot less spectacular than you think...
The biggest loss for FW400 for MOST folks is for connecting to FW based video cams.
No. Please show me a pro quality audio interface equipped with FW800 (I think there're one or two that exist). If the multi-billion dollar pro-audio industry still uses FW400 as standard how can you claim it's obselete ? Just because a few lower end items are now available in USB2 ?
Did you realise you can buy USB microphones too ? Are you going to tell us that USB will replace XLR connections ?
Just because you have FW400 on a drive no longer means it works any faster than on USB2.
http://www.macworld.com/article/1318...onetouch4.html
You can't take one example of a bad implementation of FW400 and use it to prove anything. Even in the article you quote, the writer says that "the Maxtor OneTouch’s FireWire 400 port actually lagged that of its USB port in the Duplicate File and Low Memory tests, which is atypical in a hard drive"...
2) External drives today should be eSATA for performance and Apple is behind by using FW. Apple's only saving grace is the expresscard on the MBP.
You're welcome to purchase non-hot swappable external hard drives, but why you'd do that to plug them into a portable notebook is beyond me... USB or FW are the way to go for portable equipment - but you pick the technology which suits your application. If it's just photos and the occasional word document (ie read/write uni-directional transfer) then USB2 is fine, if it's pro-audio etc then FW is needed (provided your drive/device is optimised for this and isn't a Maxtor OneTouch
The only thing that FW400 ISN'T obsolete for is (older) video and pro-audio.
Your only point that closely resembles reason so far... but you forget that many high end, brand new video cameras (eg HV30) are FW based.
GigE over USB is pointless.
Agreed. (see below) GigE is useless for notebooks as an external device connection medium - but it should still be included on notebooks for the case that you need to connecting to an established network (like a non wifi internet server or a work network).
I'd MUCH rather have GigE than FW800 if I could only have one.
So you're give all this 'good advice' on technologies that you don't own (ie have no experience with).
1394c (Firewire S800T aka FW on RJ45) is only theoretical at this point and IP over FW is essentially dead since MS killed support on Vista. Likewise 1394b (FW800) is not supported in Vista despite promises to the contrary.
So FW800 is essentially dead as well. I'd rather buy a new camera than give up the ability to connect to a network at wire speeds.
So basically you're comparing login based networking technologies (ESata and GigE) with hot swappable technologies... good luck with that one.
Oh and to avoid ridicule I wouldn't be basing anything on decisions made in Vista...
Come to think of it, why don't you go out and buy a nice brand new ESata or GigE external storage case (as I did) and see how much you like it. Not only do you have to log in (via Bonjour) every time (with minutes of delay), but many these things are designed to be left on permanently (it's essentially server technology). Try doing that in the studio or at starbucks to retrieve a couple of backed up files quickly.
I think the missing FW ports is a mistake. What am I to do with my FW HDD and camera. Removing FW is one thing, but to not offer an alternative I'm flabbergasted.
Great question.
Better Question:
- It is probably faster.
- It has everything you need and are using now.
- You don't have to upgrade anything.
- Both the old 2.1 and 2.4 outperform the new machines, e.g., re Cinema 4D Rendering, and they match or better iMovie HD Aged Effect[/INDENT]
Better Question:- Now gamers can have 5 times the Frame Rates in Quake 4, for example.
In Summary:- If you have already invested in FW Drives or FW video equipment you can't live without, it would appear that the worst thing you should do is go anywhere near the new Macbooks.
Move up and enjoy the new standard- If you are just starting to get involved in this medium, best you go with what is now becoming the new standard for consumer level use, i.e., go for USB 2.
Leap and salivateIf you look back people have complained about things that are way more important than if the new MacBook has firewire or not so why is this such a big deal.
you are right, sure. But they have to investigate carefully to define what they include and what not. It's not true, that almost all camcorders support USB and as I ivestigated in different forums about this issue. USB to Firewire adapters don't work in 100% of all cases. E.g. I have a HDV Camcorder from Canon and it doesn't support USB. A lot of semi/prof camcorder don't do it either.
1. The number of people who accuse Apple of being greedy by tuning product line feature sets to force the market to make a buying decision favorable to their bottom line. I'm surprised many people don't realize this procedure is done by nearly every successful manufacturer in the world today. Companies make products to sell so the stockholders make money. If Steve makes a decision for Apple, and it upsets the market's processes (including the third party accessory manufacturers) but makes Apple more money, then he has successfully done the only thing he gets paid for by Apple. If it backfires and nobody buys the product because of the decision, then we can call him an idiot. If they are releasing the MacBook without FW this month to grab up early sales and another better one is released next month with FW included, or even a full-featured 13" MBP -- then we can call him greedy and shameful.
2. The number of people who think that because Apple makes some wonderfully cool products, they would never intentionally, stupidly, or even accidentally produce a real piece of crap. For those reader/posters who have never had to fight the drawbacks of these products, you are fortunate. Those of you who didn't have to lobby a skeptical IT department for new Macs only to end up with some of these, you can't image how much better your life is for not having lived with this. Take a deep breath to calm down and go read on the history of Apple's mistakes at lowendmac.com/roadapples.
That said, I am not calling people who think "Apple is greedy" stupid, just seriously naive about business. And I'm not calling the new MacBook a piece of crap -- I'm sure it's a really nice computer, but I personally think it would have been much better and more useful if there was an ExpressCard port that let users add on FireWire, extra USB, eSATA, memory card readers, etc., all of which could have been sold by Apple at high markup. To me, spending gobs of money on accessories that let me use my computers the way I want to is never as bad as NOT being able to get the configuration I want no matter how much you try to add on..
you are right, sure. But they have to investigate carefully to define what they include and what not. It's not true, that almost all camcorders support USB and as I ivestigated in different forums about this issue. USB to Firewire adapters don't work in 100% of all cases. E.g. I have a HDV Camcorder from Canon and it doesn't support USB. A lot of semi/prof camcorder don't do it either.
And even if there are a lot of USB 2.0 Camcorders out there, this does not change the fact that the expensive Canon XL-1 that I use and is still running fine uses Firewire. I'm not going to replace a camera that still works fine, just because of a change in the interface, especially when the camera costs more than the computer. I am a MacBook Pro User so this isn't a big deal yet, I just hope it is not a new trend going to the rest of the lines.
Take a crow bar to your wallets and step up to the MBP....ya cheap bastards.
Or go buy an adapter for the real cheap asses.
Think about it, you will be helping the economy.
This is DimMok....and I approve this message.
Bottom line, this is about money. It always is.
Take a crow bar to your wallets and step up to the MBP....ya cheap bastards.
Or go buy an adapter for the real cheap asses.
Think about it, you will be helping the economy.
This is DimMok....and I approve this message.
You're cheap if you don't want to have to but a large heavy, $2000 to get what your previous iBook, Macbook, or 12" PB already had? The reality distortion is in full force here.
You're cheap if you don't want to have to but a large heavy, $2000 to get what your previous iBook, Macbook, or 12" PB already had? The reality distortion is in full force here.
I dont approve your message.
Tech changes man, go buy the cable, jeez.....
I dont approve your message.
Tech changes man, go buy the cable, jeez.....
1. Those cables are 4-Pin only
2. They are NOT usable with OSX
3. Even if they did come in 6 (400) and 9 (800) and were Mac compatible, it would not give me target disk mode.
Back this up...
With what? That USB2 dominated the market even 2 years ago? Done. That eSATA was the emerging new high speed external disk interface? Done.
ditto...
Already did. Vista...no support for FW800 despite promises to do so. Very few FW800 enclosures (RAID or otherwise) in comparison to eSATA enclosures.
FW800 today for most folks (even Pros) is not all that important. There are certainly SOME Pros with a significant use for it but I can see Apple dropping even FW800 in a couple three years and assuming that folks that need it will get an expresscard with it.
OK off you go, try transferring large files via wifi - something you have obviously never done - I have tried (between Mac Pro 2008 and Macbook Pro 2007 both on 802.11n) and the result is a lot less spectacular than you think...
Gee, I guess I must be imagining using my MBP with my Timecapsule on a daily basis. And TC is not blazing as a NAS. Here's a brilliant news flash for you:
Big assed files take a long assed time regardless of technology. When I back up everything to an external drive for offsite storage it goes overnight.
No. Please show me a pro quality audio interface equipped with FW800 (I think there're one or two that exist). If the multi-billion dollar pro-audio industry still uses FW400 as standard how can you claim it's obselete ? Just because a few lower end items are now available in USB2 ?
Which part of "most folks" confuse you? Do you believe that the pro-audio crowd is a significant number of folks?
Did you realise you can buy USB microphones too ? Are you going to tell us that USB will replace XLR connections ?
Again, which part of most folks confuses you?
You can't take one example of a bad implementation of FW400 and use it to prove anything. Even in the article you quote, the writer says that "the Maxtor OneTouch?s FireWire 400 port actually lagged that of its USB port in the Duplicate File and Low Memory tests, which is atypical in a hard drive"...
There's no proof involved. Just that Seagate says that Apple has improved it's USB2 drivers.
Besides, the number of crappy external drive implementations are far larger than you may think. Also the small external drives like the LaCie Little Disks are slower than heck. Wanna bet that the speed difference isn't all that much?
You're welcome to purchase non-hot swappable external hard drives, but why you'd do that to plug them into a portable notebook is beyond me... USB or FW are the way to go for portable equipment - but you pick the technology which suits your application.
http://www.barefeats.com/note04.html
SATA sustained reads: 110
FW800 sustained reads: 71
SATA sustained writes: 67
FW800 sustained writes: 49
That's why. Besides, who the hell hot swaps 1 TB RAID arrays? Yes, FW400 is faster than USB2. But who cares with large files sizes? Slow isn't much better than Dog Slow.
If it's just photos and the occasional word document (ie read/write uni-directional transfer) then USB2 is fine, if it's pro-audio etc then FW is needed (provided your drive/device is optimised for this and isn't a Maxtor OneTouch
Again, since you seem to lack reading comprehension, MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT AUDIO PROS.
Your only point that closely resembles reason so far... but you forget that many high end, brand new video cameras (eg HV30) are FW based.
Probably not for very long as FW dies.
Agreed. (see below) GigE is useless for notebooks as an external device connection medium - but it should still be included on notebooks for the case that you need to connecting to an established network (like a non wifi internet server or a work network).
Still reading challenged I see. GigE is useless over a USB2 dongle because you're limted by the USB interface. GigE is VERY useful for notebooks because it's fast and wireless isn't always available/working. When I need to do a large transfer to TimeCapsule I'll plug in directly into the device. This is faster than my FW400 drive.
So you're give all this 'good advice' on technologies that you don't own (ie have no experience with).
I have FW800 on my MBP. I use FW400 for my tiny little drive and for my video camera. I use eSATA in my lab. I use 802.11N and gigE to my TC and at work. Which technology do I NOT use?
So basically you're comparing login based networking technologies (ESata and GigE) with hot swappable technologies... good luck with that one.
No, I'm comparing technology that's used every day vs ones that only exist on paper.
Oh and to avoid ridicule I wouldn't be basing anything on decisions made in Vista...
Yeah, because 90% market share makes Microsoft irrelevant.
Come to think of it, why don't you go out and buy a nice brand new ESata or GigE external storage case (as I did) and see how much you like it. Not only do you have to log in (via Bonjour) every time (with minutes of delay), but many these things are designed to be left on permanently (it's essentially server technology). Try doing that in the studio or at starbucks to retrieve a couple of backed up files quickly.
How odd...I use my TC every day, sometimes over GigE. I VPN back to my work shares while at starbucks to get at files I might have forgotten. If I need a multi GB fiile, yes, then I'll bother to plug in my external drive. USB2 or FW400 makes little difference at that point.
For working for real...I'd rather have a eSATA drive sitting in my bag than FW400. And yes, you CAN hotplug eSATA given that it's in the SATA II spec if you have AHCI and 10.5.x. Depends on the implementation for the expresscard eSATA how well that really works though...
I confess to being drawn back to this thread over and over, and a couple things really amaze me:
2. The number of people who think that because Apple makes some wonderfully cool products, they would never intentionally, stupidly, or even accidentally produce a real piece of crap. ... Take a deep breath to calm down and go read on the history of Apple's mistakes at lowendmac.com/roadapples.
They forgot / left out the worst: the super-unreliable Apple III.
When people on Ars boards complain about FW. The response from other board memebers is "who cares, I haven't used FireWire in years".
They forgot / left out the worst: the super-unreliable Apple III.
Hey, watch what you say. My Apple III was flawless, and I did a crapload of movie and television scripts on that machine. And I don't care if my Apple III was the only good one of the bunch -- don't say bad things about my baby (which I then retired after a few years of faithful work, and a card that fit inside that transferred files over to DOS stuff if I recall correctly).
People have just been used to buying Apples and having FIrewire 400, but Firewire 400 is like USB 1 and USB 1 is going away in place of USB2. So, it is just a progression. I am sure the same discussion will happen if and when Apple comes out with FIrewire 1600 or Firewire 3200, or FIrewire 6400.
Yes, but Apple did NOT include a replacement port for FW400 on the MacBook. No comparison.
Yes we've discussed audio several times and several time its been suggested that you have the option of:
-Continuing to use your current machine
-Purchase the earlier MacBook for $999
-Purchase a new or earlier MacBook Pro.
-4 of Apple's 6 computers use FW, choose any one
-Until that dies.
-Until that is no longer available
-If one has the money to do so (not everyone can afford to thus a 'forced' upsell)
-What if you need portability? Then you have one option - the Pro. Got the $$$'s?
Apple agreed to support Blu-ray, but ultimately its still Sony's format. Steve noted the high price of licensing fees is why Apple is in no rush to adopt Blu-ray.
Sounds familiar? Pot-Kettle-Black! Maybe FireWire would be a much more 'popular' technology if Apple had licensed the technology at a more affordable price to other manufacturers at the outset rather than having to have it's hand forced on the issue? Look.
Bottom line, this is about money. It always is.
Take a crow bar to your wallets and step up to the MBP....ya cheap bastards.
Or go buy an adapter for the real cheap asses.
Think about it, you will be helping the economy.
This is DimMok....and I approve this message.
You're an idiot. For all those who did not take the time to read through this thread...
You cannot buy an 'adaptor' that will run as effectively or as fast as FireWire.
Any operational functions that you may have had through FireWire will be lost.
No native Mac OS support.
USB is not a viable alternative for semi/pro audio/video work.
As I have mentioned numerous times, the smaller 12" PowerBook - which I was happy to own - had all the current MacBook ports.
And it had a modem port and a Firewire port.
Lack of space cannot possibly be an excuse.
I know the model well. But its a considerably different design.
And, I also admit freely, that Apple is obviously discounting FW. It had to happen, I have said in the past it will happen, and it is now happening.
I will also say again that I feel it's too early to do so, so I don't totally agree with Apple's decision here.
But Apple has their reasons, and I'm trying to lay those out, because they do make sense from their point of view.
Reading Arstechnica. Which is more PC centric than AI.
When people on Ars boards complain about FW. The response from other board memebers is "who cares, I haven't used FireWire in years".
It used to be a day when Mac users were productive with their Macs and thus they could articulate the advantages of technologies.
Mac users used to be "with it" regarding technology. They used to buy more more peripherals (proportionately) and had a general love for technology that was well integrated.
Today ..being a Mac users just isn't the same. I'm sure the old foggy will always reminisce about the "good ole days" and conveniently forget the negative.
Today though there are so many computer users who have varying levels of ignorance and incuriosity wrapped with a severe lack foresight.
Apple laptops used to be the perfect blend of performance and functionality wrapped in high style. These new laptops are gorgeous but they don't just don't excite me from a functionlity standpoint.
Is it fun to complain vociferously about perceived injustice? No. But we and vendors alike who have invested in Firewire deserve better. Frankly the cost for Apple to support us is relatively miniscule.
Yes, but Apple did NOT include a replacement port for FW400 on the MacBook. No comparison.
Sure they did. Not being backwards compatible to FW400, it is effectively a little slower for the time being and/or doesn't work with your current equipment doesn't mean it's not Apple's "replacement" for FW400. It only means that that it's inconvenient for a small group of people.
The original MacBook Pro user didn't have any DL-DVD burner, despite this being a feature on the 15" PowerBook. And all that money in PCMCIA cards were wasted if you wanted to upgrade to a MacBook Pro because it used ExpressCard/34. Which, by the way, was shipped effectively useless as their was no cards available, yet now people can't imagine a MBP without it.
PS: Even if Apple added FW800 to the MacBook there would still be detractors claiming that now they now have to carry a FW800-to-FW400 adaptor with them.
You realize that Apple is a big member of the BluRay consortium, right?
But Apple not only doesn't make their own drives as does Sony, but they don't make the components of the drives to sell to others as Sony also does. Big difference. Apple's belonging to the consortium has nothing to do with much when it comes to licensing fees. They still have to pay them to the format owners, which is mainly Sony. Sony has no licensing fees to pay, as the owners of the format wave those fees amongst themselves.