Agree. Many newer camcorders have USB2 connectors, but I wonder how many will allow device control and full bandwidth into iMovie. My Canon HV30 doesn't. Some of the new cameras provide proprietary drivers and software for Windows PCs to enable video transfer via USB, but how will they work with a MacBook? Apologies to Mr. Jobs, but video via USB is a "world of hurt."
Firewire may be going away eventually, but it's much too early to remove it from MacBooks. What about normal consumers with FW DV/HDV cameras and FW hard drives? Unfortunately, the MacBook Pro is now the minimum laptop for regular, non-professional users. MacBooks are for ... who? My mother, maybe. With the world going into a recession, Apple now is saddled with a poorly priced and limited lineup of laptops.
Jobs is really out of touch on this issue. He has always been pig headed but brilliant; now he's pig-headed but flat out wrong.
I decided to bite the bullet and I visited the Canon website. I went through the complete specs and user manuals of every consumer video camera advertised on their website.
Canon does not sell ONE miniDV or tape based camera in the consumer space that DOES NOT REQUIRE Firewire for importing video. All of the miniDV camcorders have a USB port for STILL PICTURES on the SDCard only
The DVD based models and the AVHDC models will import video video via USB.
So my verdict is Steve Jobs is wrong. Just because a camcorder HAS a USB port does not mean it can use it for importing video. Without Firewire you cannot use any Canon consumer miniDV camcorder currently being sold.
While I'm sure Jobs is a liar (Woz even writes about it in his book), since the MacBook is a consumer-grade computer one could argue that Jobs is talking about consumer-grade cameras. Do the majority of consumer-grade cameras offer USB2.0 alongside or instead of FW400 or is that still a minority of the ones being sold to non-professionals?
If he thinks this, Jobs is truly completely out of touch with a large portion of his user base. While Jobs may call the new Macbook a consumer grade machine, it is most certainly not. You're not going to find two many consumer grade users at $1300.
An I/O port or two can be the difference between a sale and and losing out to a competitor. The Macbook is already down on expansion option compared to others in its class. The is no esata, no card reader, and no express card slot. Now there is no firewire. USB 2.0 is inferior to FW400 in drive speed and USB audio equipment is much less capable. In other words, while they might look really cool, in many ways, the new Macbook is an inferior product to the white Macbooks and iBooks that preceded it. You gotta wonder what is the breaking point here. How much can we lose in functionality before the benefit of Mac OS X is no longer worth it?
Can you point to some logical proof outside of your opinion that ports are that important to sales.
I can point to logical proof that faster processors, RAM, GPU, and FSB ultimately add more value to the user experience than ports.
If he thinks this, Jobs is truly completely out of touch with a large portion of his user base. While Jobs may call the new Macbook a consumer grade machine, it is most certainly not. You're not going to find two many consumer grade users at $1300.
Having an average selling price high price that the average selling PC, doesn't mean it's not mainly sold to consumers. There is overwhelming evidence to suggest that it is a consumer-grade notebook.
I assure you that I have only ever been completely and utterly unprofessional on my MacBook.
Can you point to some logical proof outside of your opinion that ports are that important to sales.
I can point to logical proof that faster processors, RAM, GPU, and FSB ultimately add more value to the user experience than ports.
How can I logically prove anything against an irrational faith that apple is always correct?
I could point to sales of the unibook being poor compared to its FW based predecessors in a couple months, but you'd counter with it being either the economy or ill-informed users that don't belong on the Mac anyway.
I could ask people how they use their iBook or Macbook and you'll just counter with it being cheap people who should be paying more for a Macbook Pro anyway.
Then again, what use are the better CPU, GPU, RAM, and chipset if the machine is not capable of performing the tasks you use it for? I'm sure you'll come with an excuse here as well to let apple off the hook.
Having an average selling price high price that the average selling PC, doesn't mean it's not mainly sold to consumers. There is overwhelming evidence to suggest that it is a consumer-grade notebook.
I assure you that I have only ever been completely and utterly unprofessional on my MacBook.
And what Apple should cater the lowest common denominator like a cheap Dell. Check that, the cheap dells have firewire.
Again, the Macbook is NOT a consumer grade computer. The specs, configuration, materials, and most importantly, the price all make this a midrange/prosumer machine. Apple can call it whatever it wants to (Mercedes calls the CLS sedan a coupe, as does BMW with their X6 SUV), but it is a midrange prosumer machine.
And what Apple should cater the lowest common denominator like a cheap Dell. Check that, the cheap dells have firewire.
What is your point? Because it can be done, it should be done? Computers had floppy drives, serial ports, parallel ports, VGA connectors, and all sort do other card readers, slots and ports long after Apple removed them from their lineup. If you think Apple should cater to the "lowest common dominator" then I think your synaptic pathways have a TTL of 2.
PS: Those $400 Dell PCs that you think Apple should compete with make their money from using older, slower tech; poor, cheap designs; and come laden with trialware in order to turn a very small profit.
Can you point to some logical proof outside of your opinion that ports are that important to sales.
I can point to logical proof that faster processors, RAM, GPU, and FSB ultimately add more value to the user experience than ports.
yes the fact that i have about 4 friends who were looking to either buy in 1st time or upgrade old macs...
- one has just purchased a 2nd 2007 hand macbook pro (no money to apple)
- two are not buying macs just yet (no money to apple)
- one is mulling it over but complaining about the price rise for feature list (no sale guaranteed)
- i'm waiting until 2009 to see what happens
all were waiting for this release (like loads of people)
and i don't actually know anyone who's rushed out and got one
so that's lost sales on a small scale
check the petition for numbers - 10k so far - ok so that's not millions (which is what apple would like to do per year) but it's a sample from a small community.
ultimately macs have been popular due to word of mouth (until the recent TV ads - but they're only in the states and the UK)
if the die hard fans (the ones who are affected by this feature removal and associated price hike)
start telling their friends that macs are over priced for what you get then there will probably be a shift in the other direction...
Again, the Macbook is NOT a consumer grade computer. The specs, configuration, materials, and most importantly, the price all make this a midrange/prosumer machine. Apple can call it whatever it wants to (Mercedes calls the CLS sedan a coupe, as does BMW with their X6 SUV), but it is a midrange prosumer machine.
You are confusing low-end with consumer They do not mean the same thing.
Again, the Macbook is NOT a consumer grade computer. The specs, configuration, materials, and most importantly, the price all make this a midrange/prosumer machine. Apple can call it whatever it wants to (Mercedes calls the CLS sedan a coupe, as does BMW with their X6 SUV), but it is a midrange prosumer machine.
I don't know where you get the idea the macbook is a prosumer machine, quite the opposite.
The machine has some of the lowest of low inside of it. For starters... a 13.3" 6bit display. That display alone puts that machine into a consumer category. But lets not stop there...
Before this new macbook, these machines had basic integrated graphics. Another reason why they aren't prosumer. This integrated gpu, was the worst on the market. All of ATI's and NVidia's chipsets beat it. Hell even the VIA chipsets could keep up with it.
Prosumer notebooks have expansion... where's the express slot? Where is the fw800? Where is the e-SATA?
Compared to the PC world, I'd argue that the MBP is a prosumer computer. No Media card readers, no e-SATA, no external dual lcd, no extreme core2duo option, no 256 bit or greater GPU option.
I love my MBP, but it is hardly a full on professional laptop compared to what is out there.
How can I logically prove anything against an irrational faith that apple is always correct?
I'm not making excuses for Apple. I'm looking at the reality of the market. I've said I think Apple should keep Firewire on all machines for at least a year longer. But looking at the reality of things I can understand why they don't.
Quote:
I could point to sales of the unibook being poor compared to its FW based predecessors in a couple months, but you'd counter with it being either the economy or ill-informed users that don't belong on the Mac anyway.
I could ask people how they use their iBook or Macbook and you'll just counter with it being cheap people who should be paying more for a Macbook Pro anyway.
Comparing two notebooks or some particular example isn't good enough. There would need to be a broader trend across the market as a whole.
The example of how USB only peripherals far outnumber FireWire peripherals is an example of a broad trend across the market.
yes the fact that i have about 4 friends who were looking to either buy in 1st time or upgrade old macs...
check the petition for numbers - 10k so far - ok so that's not millions (which is what apple would like to do per year) but it's a sample from a small community.
No it's not, but it is a sample... possibly a biased one though.
The fact that SJ even had to address this shows there was a lot of pissed off users. I didn't realize it was that big of a deal. I thought the glossy screen thing was a bigger issue, since apple kept deleting the glossy threads on the discussion boards.
The MacBook is just a consumer laptop. If you need firewire, get a mbp... It's that simple. In fact you can get a refurbed 2.4 for 1350 right now.
The MacBook is just a consumer laptop. If you need firewire, get a mbp... It's that simple. In fact you can get a refurbed 2.4 for 1350 right now.
Or just get a PC laptop. I'm not being facetious or a poor sport. You have to look at Apple's recent success.
The iPod
The iPhone
MobileMe (I consider it a success that they've replaced .mac with "something" )
Safari
iTunes
all run fine on the PC. Apple can play chicken with its users but they need to be cognizant of the fact that they have had success by being chummy with Wintel and because of that the blow from not computing on a OS X mobile isn't as severe.
I'm not willing to spend 400 bucks more money and not get what I want. I don't have to buy a Macbook Pro because I have options. When OS X is so superior to Vista that I'm willing to overlook Apple's history of spotty hardware then my choice may change but right now I'm not seeing that.
We can dismiss anecdotes all we want but the reality is once the negative sentiments creep a product their hard to get rid of. Apple even points to this with the "V word" adverstisement. Vista is not that bad but the negativivity surrounding Vista is a cancer Microsoft cannot get away from.
If he thinks this, Jobs is truly completely out of touch with a large portion of his user base. While Jobs may call the new Macbook a consumer grade machine, it is most certainly not. You're not going to find two many consumer grade users at $1300.
Hey, I just checked out the Best Buy Sunday sales circular and they have a Dell XPS with Intel Core 2 Duo, 15.4" screen, 4GB memory, 320GB HD and a slot loading Blu-Ray reader/writer. I mean it reads and WRITES to Blu-Ray discs. The price is $1149.99 after $150 savings. If Dell can do it you would think Apple could, especially on a MBP that is $2000-$2500.
Hey, I just checked out the Best Buy Sunday sales circular and they have a Dell XPS with Intel Core 2 Duo, 15.4" screen, 4GB memory, 320GB HD and a slot loading Blu-Ray reader/writer. I mean it reads and WRITES to Blu-Ray discs. The price is $1149.99 after $150 savings. If Dell can do it you would think Apple could, especially on a MBP that is $2000-$2500.
You only compared some basic specs, but you failed to look at the size and type of optical drives used between the two machines. The MBP uses a 9.5mm slot-loading optical drive. SInce Apple has never made their own optical drive, find me a BD?at any price?that fits into the MBP.
You do realize that what you're asking here is akin to stepping outside in a rainstorm and asking for some logical proof that it is raining.
As to your second part, I can point to logical proof that the fastest computer on earth wouldn't be worth shit to the home user without ports.
You're being pedantic. His argument is clearly about having more of a thing doesn't make it better or more useful to the end user. If the vast majority of people don't use FW400 then why should Apple support it for the few that due.
It's like saying the 2nd Swiss Army Knife is better than the first one, simply because it has more items, but it doesn't consider how that affects the price, if the design makes the items unusable, or if those items would ever be realistically used. If you think they are better to have them for the sake of having them I'd hold out for the Swiss Army Knife version with the 1/2" x 2.5" OLED display that folds in-and-out.
If he thinks this, Jobs is truly completely out of touch with a large portion of his user base. While Jobs may call the new Macbook a consumer grade machine, it is most certainly not. You're not going to find two many consumer grade users at $1300.
I suppose that by that logic, the Rolls Royce is a commercial vehicle, as are Ferrari's, BMW's, etc?
Comments
Agree. Many newer camcorders have USB2 connectors, but I wonder how many will allow device control and full bandwidth into iMovie. My Canon HV30 doesn't. Some of the new cameras provide proprietary drivers and software for Windows PCs to enable video transfer via USB, but how will they work with a MacBook? Apologies to Mr. Jobs, but video via USB is a "world of hurt."
Firewire may be going away eventually, but it's much too early to remove it from MacBooks. What about normal consumers with FW DV/HDV cameras and FW hard drives? Unfortunately, the MacBook Pro is now the minimum laptop for regular, non-professional users. MacBooks are for ... who? My mother, maybe. With the world going into a recession, Apple now is saddled with a poorly priced and limited lineup of laptops.
Jobs is really out of touch on this issue. He has always been pig headed but brilliant; now he's pig-headed but flat out wrong.
I decided to bite the bullet and I visited the Canon website. I went through the complete specs and user manuals of every consumer video camera advertised on their website.
Canon does not sell ONE miniDV or tape based camera in the consumer space that DOES NOT REQUIRE Firewire for importing video. All of the miniDV camcorders have a USB port for STILL PICTURES on the SDCard only
The DVD based models and the AVHDC models will import video video via USB.
So my verdict is Steve Jobs is wrong. Just because a camcorder HAS a USB port does not mean it can use it for importing video. Without Firewire you cannot use any Canon consumer miniDV camcorder currently being sold.
While I'm sure Jobs is a liar (Woz even writes about it in his book), since the MacBook is a consumer-grade computer one could argue that Jobs is talking about consumer-grade cameras. Do the majority of consumer-grade cameras offer USB2.0 alongside or instead of FW400 or is that still a minority of the ones being sold to non-professionals?
If he thinks this, Jobs is truly completely out of touch with a large portion of his user base. While Jobs may call the new Macbook a consumer grade machine, it is most certainly not. You're not going to find two many consumer grade users at $1300.
An I/O port or two can be the difference between a sale and and losing out to a competitor. The Macbook is already down on expansion option compared to others in its class. The is no esata, no card reader, and no express card slot. Now there is no firewire. USB 2.0 is inferior to FW400 in drive speed and USB audio equipment is much less capable. In other words, while they might look really cool, in many ways, the new Macbook is an inferior product to the white Macbooks and iBooks that preceded it. You gotta wonder what is the breaking point here. How much can we lose in functionality before the benefit of Mac OS X is no longer worth it?
Can you point to some logical proof outside of your opinion that ports are that important to sales.
I can point to logical proof that faster processors, RAM, GPU, and FSB ultimately add more value to the user experience than ports.
If he thinks this, Jobs is truly completely out of touch with a large portion of his user base. While Jobs may call the new Macbook a consumer grade machine, it is most certainly not. You're not going to find two many consumer grade users at $1300.
Having an average selling price high price that the average selling PC, doesn't mean it's not mainly sold to consumers. There is overwhelming evidence to suggest that it is a consumer-grade notebook.
I assure you that I have only ever been completely and utterly unprofessional on my MacBook.
Can you point to some logical proof outside of your opinion that ports are that important to sales.
I can point to logical proof that faster processors, RAM, GPU, and FSB ultimately add more value to the user experience than ports.
How can I logically prove anything against an irrational faith that apple is always correct?
I could point to sales of the unibook being poor compared to its FW based predecessors in a couple months, but you'd counter with it being either the economy or ill-informed users that don't belong on the Mac anyway.
I could ask people how they use their iBook or Macbook and you'll just counter with it being cheap people who should be paying more for a Macbook Pro anyway.
Then again, what use are the better CPU, GPU, RAM, and chipset if the machine is not capable of performing the tasks you use it for? I'm sure you'll come with an excuse here as well to let apple off the hook.
Having an average selling price high price that the average selling PC, doesn't mean it's not mainly sold to consumers. There is overwhelming evidence to suggest that it is a consumer-grade notebook.
I assure you that I have only ever been completely and utterly unprofessional on my MacBook.
And what Apple should cater the lowest common denominator like a cheap Dell. Check that, the cheap dells have firewire.
since the MacBook is a consumer-grade computer
Again, the Macbook is NOT a consumer grade computer. The specs, configuration, materials, and most importantly, the price all make this a midrange/prosumer machine. Apple can call it whatever it wants to (Mercedes calls the CLS sedan a coupe, as does BMW with their X6 SUV), but it is a midrange prosumer machine.
And what Apple should cater the lowest common denominator like a cheap Dell. Check that, the cheap dells have firewire.
What is your point? Because it can be done, it should be done? Computers had floppy drives, serial ports, parallel ports, VGA connectors, and all sort do other card readers, slots and ports long after Apple removed them from their lineup. If you think Apple should cater to the "lowest common dominator" then I think your synaptic pathways have a TTL of 2.
PS: Those $400 Dell PCs that you think Apple should compete with make their money from using older, slower tech; poor, cheap designs; and come laden with trialware in order to turn a very small profit.
Can you point to some logical proof outside of your opinion that ports are that important to sales.
I can point to logical proof that faster processors, RAM, GPU, and FSB ultimately add more value to the user experience than ports.
yes the fact that i have about 4 friends who were looking to either buy in 1st time or upgrade old macs...
- one has just purchased a 2nd 2007 hand macbook pro (no money to apple)
- two are not buying macs just yet (no money to apple)
- one is mulling it over but complaining about the price rise for feature list (no sale guaranteed)
- i'm waiting until 2009 to see what happens
all were waiting for this release (like loads of people)
and i don't actually know anyone who's rushed out and got one
so that's lost sales on a small scale
check the petition for numbers - 10k so far - ok so that's not millions (which is what apple would like to do per year) but it's a sample from a small community.
ultimately macs have been popular due to word of mouth (until the recent TV ads - but they're only in the states and the UK)
if the die hard fans (the ones who are affected by this feature removal and associated price hike)
start telling their friends that macs are over priced for what you get then there will probably be a shift in the other direction...
Again, the Macbook is NOT a consumer grade computer. The specs, configuration, materials, and most importantly, the price all make this a midrange/prosumer machine. Apple can call it whatever it wants to (Mercedes calls the CLS sedan a coupe, as does BMW with their X6 SUV), but it is a midrange prosumer machine.
You are confusing low-end with consumer They do not mean the same thing.
Again, the Macbook is NOT a consumer grade computer. The specs, configuration, materials, and most importantly, the price all make this a midrange/prosumer machine. Apple can call it whatever it wants to (Mercedes calls the CLS sedan a coupe, as does BMW with their X6 SUV), but it is a midrange prosumer machine.
I don't know where you get the idea the macbook is a prosumer machine, quite the opposite.
The machine has some of the lowest of low inside of it. For starters... a 13.3" 6bit display. That display alone puts that machine into a consumer category. But lets not stop there...
Before this new macbook, these machines had basic integrated graphics. Another reason why they aren't prosumer. This integrated gpu, was the worst on the market. All of ATI's and NVidia's chipsets beat it. Hell even the VIA chipsets could keep up with it.
Prosumer notebooks have expansion... where's the express slot? Where is the fw800? Where is the e-SATA?
Compared to the PC world, I'd argue that the MBP is a prosumer computer. No Media card readers, no e-SATA, no external dual lcd, no extreme core2duo option, no 256 bit or greater GPU option.
I love my MBP, but it is hardly a full on professional laptop compared to what is out there.
How can I logically prove anything against an irrational faith that apple is always correct?
I'm not making excuses for Apple. I'm looking at the reality of the market. I've said I think Apple should keep Firewire on all machines for at least a year longer. But looking at the reality of things I can understand why they don't.
I could point to sales of the unibook being poor compared to its FW based predecessors in a couple months, but you'd counter with it being either the economy or ill-informed users that don't belong on the Mac anyway.
I could ask people how they use their iBook or Macbook and you'll just counter with it being cheap people who should be paying more for a Macbook Pro anyway.
Comparing two notebooks or some particular example isn't good enough. There would need to be a broader trend across the market as a whole.
The example of how USB only peripherals far outnumber FireWire peripherals is an example of a broad trend across the market.
yes the fact that i have about 4 friends who were looking to either buy in 1st time or upgrade old macs...
check the petition for numbers - 10k so far - ok so that's not millions (which is what apple would like to do per year) but it's a sample from a small community.
This does not represent the market as a whole.
This does not represent the market as a whole.
No it's not, but it is a sample... possibly a biased one though.
The fact that SJ even had to address this shows there was a lot of pissed off users. I didn't realize it was that big of a deal. I thought the glossy screen thing was a bigger issue, since apple kept deleting the glossy threads on the discussion boards.
The MacBook is just a consumer laptop. If you need firewire, get a mbp... It's that simple. In fact you can get a refurbed 2.4 for 1350 right now.
The MacBook is just a consumer laptop. If you need firewire, get a mbp... It's that simple. In fact you can get a refurbed 2.4 for 1350 right now.
Or just get a PC laptop. I'm not being facetious or a poor sport. You have to look at Apple's recent success.
The iPod
The iPhone
MobileMe (I consider it a success that they've replaced .mac with "something" )
Safari
iTunes
all run fine on the PC. Apple can play chicken with its users but they need to be cognizant of the fact that they have had success by being chummy with Wintel and because of that the blow from not computing on a OS X mobile isn't as severe.
I'm not willing to spend 400 bucks more money and not get what I want. I don't have to buy a Macbook Pro because I have options. When OS X is so superior to Vista that I'm willing to overlook Apple's history of spotty hardware then my choice may change but right now I'm not seeing that.
We can dismiss anecdotes all we want but the reality is once the negative sentiments creep a product their hard to get rid of. Apple even points to this with the "V word" adverstisement. Vista is not that bad but the negativivity surrounding Vista is a cancer Microsoft cannot get away from.
If he thinks this, Jobs is truly completely out of touch with a large portion of his user base. While Jobs may call the new Macbook a consumer grade machine, it is most certainly not. You're not going to find two many consumer grade users at $1300.
Hey, I just checked out the Best Buy Sunday sales circular and they have a Dell XPS with Intel Core 2 Duo, 15.4" screen, 4GB memory, 320GB HD and a slot loading Blu-Ray reader/writer. I mean it reads and WRITES to Blu-Ray discs. The price is $1149.99 after $150 savings. If Dell can do it you would think Apple could, especially on a MBP that is $2000-$2500.
Can you point to some logical proof outside of your opinion that ports are that important to sales.
I can point to logical proof that faster processors, RAM, GPU, and FSB ultimately add more value to the user experience than ports.
You do realize that what you're asking here is akin to stepping outside in a rainstorm and asking for some logical proof that it is raining.
As to your second part, I can point to logical proof that the fastest computer on earth wouldn't be worth shit to the home user without ports.
Hey, I just checked out the Best Buy Sunday sales circular and they have a Dell XPS with Intel Core 2 Duo, 15.4" screen, 4GB memory, 320GB HD and a slot loading Blu-Ray reader/writer. I mean it reads and WRITES to Blu-Ray discs. The price is $1149.99 after $150 savings. If Dell can do it you would think Apple could, especially on a MBP that is $2000-$2500.
You only compared some basic specs, but you failed to look at the size and type of optical drives used between the two machines. The MBP uses a 9.5mm slot-loading optical drive. SInce Apple has never made their own optical drive, find me a BD?at any price?that fits into the MBP.
You do realize that what you're asking here is akin to stepping outside in a rainstorm and asking for some logical proof that it is raining.
As to your second part, I can point to logical proof that the fastest computer on earth wouldn't be worth shit to the home user without ports.
You're being pedantic. His argument is clearly about having more of a thing doesn't make it better or more useful to the end user. If the vast majority of people don't use FW400 then why should Apple support it for the few that due.
It's like saying the 2nd Swiss Army Knife is better than the first one, simply because it has more items, but it doesn't consider how that affects the price, if the design makes the items unusable, or if those items would ever be realistically used. If you think they are better to have them for the sake of having them I'd hold out for the Swiss Army Knife version with the 1/2" x 2.5" OLED display that folds in-and-out.
If he thinks this, Jobs is truly completely out of touch with a large portion of his user base. While Jobs may call the new Macbook a consumer grade machine, it is most certainly not. You're not going to find two many consumer grade users at $1300.
I suppose that by that logic, the Rolls Royce is a commercial vehicle, as are Ferrari's, BMW's, etc?