You're an idiot. For all those who did not take the time to read through this thread...
You cannot buy an 'adaptor' that will run as effectively or as fast as FireWire.
Any operational functions that you may have had through FireWire will be lost.
No native Mac OS support.
USB is not a viable alternative for semi/pro audio/video work.
I agree absolutely with you. These are really useless comments!!! And I agree also, that's not very smart to leave something without an alternative!!! And don't tell me that FW 400 is a luxury, it's simple essential.
Everyone stop comparing this to the loss of the Floppy Drive, this is NOTHING like the loss of a floppy drive, Floppy drive technology was the inferior specification, I cried no tears when floppies went away, in this case however, FireWire is Still the Superior technology, and dropping it with no logical explanation makes no sense, especially in a $1300 laptop.
Everyone stop comparing this to the loss of the Floppy Drive, this is NOTHING like the loss of a floppy drive, Floppy drive technology was the inferior specification, I cried no tears when floppies went away, in this case however, FireWire is Still the Superior technology, and dropping it with no logical explanation makes no sense, especially in a $1300 laptop.
Inferior to having nothing? It's quite comparable as they were not replaced with another writable media right away. The iMacs only had a CD reader, not a writer.
Also, the MacBook Pros were given an inferior SL-DVD burner instead of the DL-DVD burners that the PowerBooks before them had. And, the ExpressCard addition to the MBP over the PB means all your PCMCIA cards were useless and even if you wanted to buy new ones you couldn't, because they didn't exist.
Don't remove an old technology until you have a better one to replace it.
There are 20 pages of examples of Apple removing one technology and replacing it with a less usable one. FW400 wasn't even close to the first, and I'm sure it won't be the be last. They don't change their casing mid stream, so the ports you have now are what you'll have for the next 3 years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dposxfan
Then why the higher prices and less connectivity(FW) features for the new machines? Do more than pretty packaging to try to justify the cost, add features to offset the price.
USing your argument, then Panasonic ToughBooks should be cheap, since they use older components with lower performance. Yet, they cost more than comparable machines. Could it be that the production and build quality of a product is a consideration for pricing? What about the materials used? Does glass, aluminium, and being environmentally conscious not cost more than non-biodegradable injection molded plastic case? What about the parts being used? Are you comparing what can go into a 2" notebook with can go into a <1" notebook?
Inferior to having nothing? It's quite comparable as they were not replaced with another writable media right away.
We can blame that one on Jobs, by God... ever since the first NeXT cube with a 128mb MO drive and Jobs wanted everyone to carry their life around in their backpack.
Unfortunately, the ubiquitous 3.5" floppy is not dead... at my house we needed a USB-based floppy drive up until a couple months ago as my wife's $4800 sewing machine used a floppy disk as the only transport mechanism for moving designs from computer to it (hell, the one it replaced used a freakin' serial cable!) The $8000 new model replacement sewing machine finally has a USB port so you can use memory sticks. (And people think MacBooks are too expensive...)
We can blame that one on Jobs, by God... ever since the first NeXT cube with a 128mb MO drive and Jobs wanted everyone to carry their life around in their backpack.
Unfortunately, the ubiquitous 3.5" floppy is not dead... at my house we needed a USB-based floppy drive up until a couple months ago as my wife's $4800 sewing machine used a floppy disk as the only transport mechanism for moving designs from computer to it (hell, the one it replaced used a freakin' serial cable!) The $8000 new model replacement sewing machine finally has a USB port so you can use memory sticks. (And people think MacBooks are too expensive...)
Based on many of the commenters on this board, since you still need a floppy disc, Apple should not have removed it from the line up.
PS: Here is a YouTube vid I posted of Jobs taking the 3.5" floppy in his shirt pocket. He thinks it's a huge deal that it fits in your pocket. So advanced!
Inferior to having nothing? It's quite comparable as they were not replaced with another writable media right away. The iMacs only had a CD reader, not a writer.
Also, the MacBook Pros were given an inferior SL-DVD burner instead of the DL-DVD burners that the PowerBooks before them had. And, the ExpressCard addition to the MBP over the PB means all your PCMCIA cards were useless and even if you wanted to buy new ones you couldn't, because they didn't exist.
At the time the Floppy drive was pulled from Apple's iMac, the Zip Drive was very prevelent, and at the time the the iMac was released you could get a USB Zip Drive, but you could also get a USB Floppy drive for around $30, and it worked just like any other floppy drive, but at least you HAD the option, there is no easy reliable option to go to when dumping FireWire, and as I can see it the ONLY advantage USB 2.0 has over FireWire is Cost, and that difference isn't all that great.
Apple didn't include a DL-DVD burner in the first MacBook Pros only because no one made a drive that would fit in the case at that point, but as soon as it was available, they put it back in. PCMCIA cards is not superior to ExpressCards, so that argument does not apply. Most people only used PCMCIA for an external extra monitor (unneeded now that it is built in), or for reading compact flash media.
I'm not in the market for a MacBook, so this isn't a big deal, I just hope it is not a trend that goes to it's other lines. But I think I will predict we will see FireWire back in the MacBook by the next revision.
Yeah the move from SCSI was a huge upgrade problem. Downgrade really as it was to a slower interface. But this is exactly the problem, it wasn't nice then and it's not nice now and they didn't really have to do it this time. The ethernet vs FW400 isn't the issue because the old model had both, The FW400 plug needed to be replaced with the new model, instead they just scrapped FW altogether.
I don't think people would mind quite so much if Apple offered guidance on where they go from here. Presumably people are expected to buy cameras like this one:
I would say fair enough, that looks affordable, USB support, HD but hang on Apple, where is the software support for AVCHD? Hmmm, need to upgrade all the software to the latest versions. Mo money:
But then you have to weigh up whether or not you take the money for a FCS upgrade (if you have a lower version or an alternate product) + a new camera and instead just buy a MBP and keep the camera you have.
I think consumers are reaching a point where Apple's choices forcing them to spend so much not only on the machines themselves but on everything else to be compatible are getting tiresome.
I thought iMovie supported AVCHD already. I read that somewhere. I don't use it though, just FCS. Since iMovie, at least the latest version does work with USB, and since USb is on just about all HD camcorders, I would imagine it would support them.
This article from Macworld by Peter Cohen seems to think so.
My god, I can´t believe that this thread is going on and on and on over 19 pages..
What a typical pointless discussion this is..
Those missing FW in the new MBs: you obviously have a working system that you´re currently using and, considering the demands of today´s music and camera hardware on the MB - it seems to be working to your satisfaction doesn´t it? So don´t go and buy a new camera with FW if you want the new MB.
So if we can all agree that the one rule applying to most computers is : "Never change a running system" (anyone want to prove the contrary?), THEN WHAT THE **** ARE YOU CRYING ABOUT?
Just cause big uncle Steve doesn´t allow you to have the newest, best, MB? If you´re that centered on always having to have the newest, best, whatever, then you are just like all the PC Gamers who buy new graphics cards every 3 months - fanboys, nerds, geeks, what have you. Either shell out the extra cash for the MBP or GROW UP! Standards change. No one is forcing you to buy a new MB, are they? I quite admire Steve and Apple for their bold move. Does anyone have excerpts of the forum posts back when apple dropped the 3.5" floppies? Probably they´ll sound veeeery familiar....
Oh and by the way: I´ll gladly take up an objective discussion with anyone in the music or video business using FW-based hardware, as I´ve been doing so for the last 5 years too.
Dear moderator: pleeeeeease kill this totally unnecessary thread, won´t you?
Why should we kill a thread if so many are enjoying it?
At the time the Floppy drive was pulled from Apple's iMac, the Zip Drive was very prevelent
It wasn't included. It was an extra cost. People complained that they should have waited until writable CD drives were available.
Quote:
Apple didn't include a DL-DVD burner in the first MacBook Pros only because no one made a drive that would fit in the case at that point, but as soon as it was available, they put it back in.
Almost a year later. So if you wanted an Intel Mac notebook and DL-DVD burner you were being forced to buy a 17" MBP or get an external drive. People complained that they should have waited until a DL-DVD burners were available.
Quote:
PCMCIA cards is not superior to ExpressCards, so that argument does not apply.
I didn't say they were not "superior" tech. Being "superior" in one since doesn't equal usability if their are no cards available. People complained that they should have waited until a 3rd-party EC cards were available.
Quote:
I'm not in the market for a MacBook, so this isn't a big deal, I just hope it is not a trend that goes to it's other lines. But I think I will predict we will see FireWire back in the MacBook by the next revision.
Do you see the trend there? Apple is doing what is best for Apple, not what is best for the short-term needs of a very small group of complainers. I use FW400 and wish it still had it, but you don't see me complaining that Apple is somehow not being Apple or that Apple is doomed.
As for the next revision, if you mean the next speed bump for the new cases, then it absolutely will not be getting FW back in them as I doubt you can find a precedence where Apple has done a major case and MoBo alteration mid-cycle. If you mean, the next case in 3 years, I think that will depend on the success of the FW800/3200 interface port over the next couple years in comparison to other options. It may behoove Apple to include FW3200 in 3 years, only keep it as a 'pro' feature, or get rid of it altogether. To much can happen in 3 years.
For comparison, this time 3 years ago we knew Apple was switching to Intel, but didn't know what the machines would look like or that they would be introduced in just few months, well ahead of schedule. And the very first iPod Nano had just come out the month before, replacing the HDD-based iPod Mini.
Yeah the move from SCSI was a huge upgrade problem. Downgrade really as it was to a slower interface. But this is exactly the problem, it wasn't nice then and it's not nice now and they didn't really have to do it this time. The ethernet vs FW400 isn't the issue because the old model had both, The FW400 plug needed to be replaced with the new model, instead they just scrapped FW altogether.
I don't think people would mind quite so much if Apple offered guidance on where they go from here. Presumably people are expected to buy cameras like this one:
I would say fair enough, that looks affordable, USB support, HD but hang on Apple, where is the software support for AVCHD? Hmmm, need to upgrade all the software to the latest versions. Mo money:
But then you have to weigh up whether or not you take the money for a FCS upgrade (if you have a lower version or an alternate product) + a new camera and instead just buy a MBP and keep the camera you have.
I think consumers are reaching a point where Apple's choices forcing them to spend so much not only on the machines themselves but on everything else to be compatible are getting tiresome.
And that's from a company that used to live up to its "its just works" motto.
There are 20 pages of examples of Apple removing one technology and replacing it with a less usable one. FW400 wasn't even close to the first, and I'm sure it won't be the be last. They don't change their casing mid stream, so the ports you have now are what you'll have for the next 3 years.
Ah!
I'm happy you brought up the port thingie.
I've been giving this some thought, and what I've come up with could be good news.
As we all know, Apple sticks to a particular case design for a long time. I suppose there could be two reasons for that.
The first is that, except for the old 8x00 and 9x00 series machines, Apple's cases have been quite good. Better than that found in the PC industry. No reason to change from a superior design unless you have a better one.
Two is the cost and time factor in designing and manufacturing new cases. It's very expensive to do this.
The reason why is simple. Other than the design process itself, there is the way it's manufactured. And that's the big problem!
All cases are manufactured using several techniques. For the metal parts there is stamping sheet metal. That's not a biggie, and is really cheap to do. But in order to do that, dies must be designed and manufactured for the stampers. Those can cost $250,000 for large versions. Several must be used for different parts of the case, costing different amounts, and it's possible that several may be needed for several stampers. Dies must also be designed and manufactured for the presses to form the metal. Same thing about costs there. Then for portables, has been the precision castings for the interior supports the boards are mounted on. In addition to the design of those, molds must also be designed and tested.
For plastic parts, injection molds must also be designed and manufactured.
This is a costly and time consuming process all around. It can take months.
If a small change, such as a new port, or an adjustment to an opening must be made, either new dies, or molds, or castings, must again be designed and manufactured. That's in addition to the new mobo (which, being electronics is much easier, and cheaper, to do).
Very expensive to make a minor change.
But, now that Apple is machining its laptop cases, things are vastly different!
While it does cost more to manufacture these cases (at least in the beginning), there are many advantages to it.
The main ones we already know. The strength, the simplicity, the ability Apple now has to arrange the interior the way it wants to without having to worry about internal bracing, etc.
But, to me, just as important is the flexibility Apple has gained.
By machining each case (at least the bottom, and most important part), Apple has the ability to make changes on a daily basis (almost). If a redesign in the case is needed, the design can be made, the "G" code written up and downloaded to ONE machine. Then a slab of machinable wax is put into the vise setup and machined. If nothing is wrong, then a billet of Al is inserted, and a case is made.
The design time for the case now takes far longer than getting a real Al sample. No longer do handmade models need to be produced before tooling is manufactured.
If all is needed is a hole for a new port, or an adjusted size hole is needed, it can be designed in the morning (it's a very small detail), the "G" code can be written in the afternoon (again, a small detail), and the next day both the wax, and then the Al case comes back to the design lab.
If all is well, the new codes can be downloaded to all the mills, and the new design can be executed the next day.
Truly revolutionary, just as Jobs said.
No one else, as far as we know is doing this for computer cases.
I wonder if the version of iMovie HD shipped with new MacBooks will include a disclaimer to instructions on connecting with a FW-port, or a compatible camera list reduced to those with USB.
But, now that Apple is machining its laptop cases, things are vastly different!
That is an excellent point!
Quote:
No one else, as far as we know is doing this for computer cases.
I wonder if anyone can follow Apple's lead here, or do they have to many varying machine types without enough bulk sales on the higher-end to make the investment worthwhile.
I'm still holding out for 1394c "FireWire over Ethernet" to be ratified, adopted and implemented... but I don't see Apple adopting it.
There are 20 pages of examples of Apple removing one technology and replacing it with a less usable one. FW400 wasn't even close to the first, and I'm sure it won't be the be last. They don't change their casing mid stream, so the ports you have now are what you'll have for the next 3 years.
USing your argument, then Panasonic ToughBooks should be cheap, since they use older components with lower performance. Yet, they cost more than comparable machines. Could it be that the production and build quality of a product is a consideration for pricing? What about the materials used? Does glass, aluminium, and being environmentally conscious not cost more than non-biodegradable injection molded plastic case? What about the parts being used? Are you comparing what can go into a 2" notebook with can go into a <1" notebook?
I you're forgetting the first 15" MBP(MA600LL) that came out in May 2006. It only had the one FW400 port. But at the next refresh in October of that same year, which I believe is about 5-6 months, the MBP(MA609LL) had both the FW400 AND FW800 ports. So don't tell me that they don't change their casing mid stream. I'd like to see one FW800 port on the MB and two FW800 on the MBP. And if you check with Mactracker you'll see for yourself.
You might want look into where the ToughBook is produced. I might be made in Japan. Both the MB & MBP are made in CHINA where labor is supposedly dirt cheap. If you don't think so then ask the hundreds of thousands of people who've lost their jobs in this country! It might cost $5-$10 per unit to put the FW ports on the MB & MBP.
I wonder if anyone can follow Apple's lead here, or do they have to many varying machine types without enough bulk sales on the higher-end to make the investment worthwhile.
I'm still holding out for 1394c "FireWire over Ethernet" to be ratified, adopted and implemented... but I don't see Apple adopting it.
It's interesting about Apple.
While they sell far less machines than the rest of the industry, in recent years, they likely sell more of any one model (for laptops at least) than almost anyone else, because they have so few models when compared to almost anyone else.
This likely wouldn't pay for most other manufacturers, because they wouldn't want to pay, and charge so much for them. Apple's old cases already usually cost more, other than for possible, carbon fiber cases, assuming they really ARE carbon fiber cases, and not just regular cases with a thin surface of carbon fiber.
I you're forgetting the first 15" MBP(MA600LL) that came out in May 2006. It only had the one FW400 port. But at the next refresh in October of that same year, which I believe is about 5-6 months, the MBP(MA609LL) had both the FW400 AND FW800 ports. So don't tell me that they don't change their casing mid stream. I'd like to see one FW800 port on the MB and two FW800 on the MBP. And if you check with Mactracker you'll see for yourself.
You're right, i did overlook that fact. The 15" MBP was announced in January, shipped in February, and it wasn't until the C2D model in October (8 months later) that saw a FW800 & and DL-DVD burner. Maybe that petition will work after all.
Also according to MacTracker, the previous 15" PowerBooks had FW800 and FW400, so you can chock that up as another example of Apple removing a higher function technology without having anything better and usable to replace it with.
I you're forgetting the first 15" MBP(MA600LL) that came out in May 2006. It only had the one FW400 port. But at the next refresh in October of that same year, which I believe is about 5-6 months, the MBP(MA609LL) had both the FW400 AND FW800 ports. So don't tell me that they don't change their casing mid stream. I'd like to see one FW800 port on the MB and two FW800 on the MBP. And if you check with Mactracker you'll see for yourself.
That's rare indeed!
At the time FW 800 seemed to be a big deal, but not any longer. It's getting less support as time goes on, and it never had much at its peak. there is no way I can imagine the MB getting it. Apple has always reserved it for their more expensive laptops, and only earlier this year put one on the iMac. If there's enough demand, possibly, 400 may return.
Quote:
You might want look into where the ToughBook is produced. I might be made in Japan. Both the MB & MBP are made in CHINA where labor is supposedly dirt cheap. If you don't think so then ask the hundreds of thousands of people who've lost their jobs in this country! It might cost $5-$10 per unit to put the FW ports on the MB & MBP.
Inferior to having nothing? It's quite comparable as they were not replaced with another writable media right away. The iMacs only had a CD reader, not a writer.
And Apple publicly admitted missing the boat on CD-R.
At the time FW 800 seemed to be a big deal, but not any longer. It's getting less support as time goes on, and it never had much at its peak. there is no way I can imagine the MB getting it. Apple has always reserved it for their more expensive laptops, and only earlier this year put one on the iMac. If there's enough demand, possibly, 400 may return.
I'm just baffled at the decision to unnecessarily remove FireWire from a $1300 notebook, it just doesn't make sence, and they can only chalk it up to "because I said so" as the reason.
You'll find the demand is definately there. I don't personally know a Mac user that doesn't have a plethora of FireWire Devices they rely on all the time. And the sheer fact that Canon does not have a single MiniDV camera not using FireWire exclusively to import video will push that as well. FireWire just does everything better. I could see if there were some advantages to USB 2.0, but there aren't. Maybe they have something new on the horizon, who knows, I can generally understand where Apple is going with most of their palns, and I am generally out there explaining the logic, but in this case, I am having a hard time...
Comments
You're an idiot. For all those who did not take the time to read through this thread...
You cannot buy an 'adaptor' that will run as effectively or as fast as FireWire.
Any operational functions that you may have had through FireWire will be lost.
No native Mac OS support.
USB is not a viable alternative for semi/pro audio/video work.
I agree absolutely with you. These are really useless comments!!! And I agree also, that's not very smart to leave something without an alternative!!! And don't tell me that FW 400 is a luxury, it's simple essential.
Everyone stop comparing this to the loss of the Floppy Drive, this is NOTHING like the loss of a floppy drive, Floppy drive technology was the inferior specification, I cried no tears when floppies went away, in this case however, FireWire is Still the Superior technology, and dropping it with no logical explanation makes no sense, especially in a $1300 laptop.
Inferior to having nothing? It's quite comparable as they were not replaced with another writable media right away. The iMacs only had a CD reader, not a writer.
Also, the MacBook Pros were given an inferior SL-DVD burner instead of the DL-DVD burners that the PowerBooks before them had. And, the ExpressCard addition to the MBP over the PB means all your PCMCIA cards were useless and even if you wanted to buy new ones you couldn't, because they didn't exist.
Don't remove an old technology until you have a better one to replace it.
There are 20 pages of examples of Apple removing one technology and replacing it with a less usable one. FW400 wasn't even close to the first, and I'm sure it won't be the be last. They don't change their casing mid stream, so the ports you have now are what you'll have for the next 3 years.
Then why the higher prices and less connectivity(FW) features for the new machines? Do more than pretty packaging to try to justify the cost, add features to offset the price.
USing your argument, then Panasonic ToughBooks should be cheap, since they use older components with lower performance. Yet, they cost more than comparable machines. Could it be that the production and build quality of a product is a consideration for pricing? What about the materials used? Does glass, aluminium, and being environmentally conscious not cost more than non-biodegradable injection molded plastic case? What about the parts being used? Are you comparing what can go into a 2" notebook with can go into a <1" notebook?
Inferior to having nothing? It's quite comparable as they were not replaced with another writable media right away.
We can blame that one on Jobs, by God... ever since the first NeXT cube with a 128mb MO drive and Jobs wanted everyone to carry their life around in their backpack.
Unfortunately, the ubiquitous 3.5" floppy is not dead... at my house we needed a USB-based floppy drive up until a couple months ago as my wife's $4800 sewing machine used a floppy disk as the only transport mechanism for moving designs from computer to it (hell, the one it replaced used a freakin' serial cable!) The $8000 new model replacement sewing machine finally has a USB port so you can use memory sticks. (And people think MacBooks are too expensive...)
We can blame that one on Jobs, by God... ever since the first NeXT cube with a 128mb MO drive and Jobs wanted everyone to carry their life around in their backpack.
Unfortunately, the ubiquitous 3.5" floppy is not dead... at my house we needed a USB-based floppy drive up until a couple months ago as my wife's $4800 sewing machine used a floppy disk as the only transport mechanism for moving designs from computer to it (hell, the one it replaced used a freakin' serial cable!) The $8000 new model replacement sewing machine finally has a USB port so you can use memory sticks. (And people think MacBooks are too expensive...)
Based on many of the commenters on this board, since you still need a floppy disc, Apple should not have removed it from the line up.
PS: Here is a YouTube vid I posted of Jobs taking the 3.5" floppy in his shirt pocket. He thinks it's a huge deal that it fits in your pocket. So advanced!
Inferior to having nothing? It's quite comparable as they were not replaced with another writable media right away. The iMacs only had a CD reader, not a writer.
Also, the MacBook Pros were given an inferior SL-DVD burner instead of the DL-DVD burners that the PowerBooks before them had. And, the ExpressCard addition to the MBP over the PB means all your PCMCIA cards were useless and even if you wanted to buy new ones you couldn't, because they didn't exist.
At the time the Floppy drive was pulled from Apple's iMac, the Zip Drive was very prevelent, and at the time the the iMac was released you could get a USB Zip Drive, but you could also get a USB Floppy drive for around $30, and it worked just like any other floppy drive, but at least you HAD the option, there is no easy reliable option to go to when dumping FireWire, and as I can see it the ONLY advantage USB 2.0 has over FireWire is Cost, and that difference isn't all that great.
Apple didn't include a DL-DVD burner in the first MacBook Pros only because no one made a drive that would fit in the case at that point, but as soon as it was available, they put it back in. PCMCIA cards is not superior to ExpressCards, so that argument does not apply. Most people only used PCMCIA for an external extra monitor (unneeded now that it is built in), or for reading compact flash media.
I'm not in the market for a MacBook, so this isn't a big deal, I just hope it is not a trend that goes to it's other lines. But I think I will predict we will see FireWire back in the MacBook by the next revision.
Yeah the move from SCSI was a huge upgrade problem. Downgrade really as it was to a slower interface. But this is exactly the problem, it wasn't nice then and it's not nice now and they didn't really have to do it this time. The ethernet vs FW400 isn't the issue because the old model had both, The FW400 plug needed to be replaced with the new model, instead they just scrapped FW altogether.
I don't think people would mind quite so much if Apple offered guidance on where they go from here. Presumably people are expected to buy cameras like this one:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B...pf_rd_i=468294
I would say fair enough, that looks affordable, USB support, HD but hang on Apple, where is the software support for AVCHD? Hmmm, need to upgrade all the software to the latest versions. Mo money:
http://suburbia.org.uk/blog/2007/07/28/175003.html
But then you have to weigh up whether or not you take the money for a FCS upgrade (if you have a lower version or an alternate product) + a new camera and instead just buy a MBP and keep the camera you have.
I think consumers are reaching a point where Apple's choices forcing them to spend so much not only on the machines themselves but on everything else to be compatible are getting tiresome.
I thought iMovie supported AVCHD already. I read that somewhere. I don't use it though, just FCS. Since iMovie, at least the latest version does work with USB, and since USb is on just about all HD camcorders, I would imagine it would support them.
This article from Macworld by Peter Cohen seems to think so.
http://www.macworld.com/article/1362..._firewire.html
My god, I can´t believe that this thread is going on and on and on over 19 pages..
What a typical pointless discussion this is..
Those missing FW in the new MBs: you obviously have a working system that you´re currently using and, considering the demands of today´s music and camera hardware on the MB - it seems to be working to your satisfaction doesn´t it? So don´t go and buy a new camera with FW if you want the new MB.
So if we can all agree that the one rule applying to most computers is : "Never change a running system" (anyone want to prove the contrary?), THEN WHAT THE **** ARE YOU CRYING ABOUT?
Just cause big uncle Steve doesn´t allow you to have the newest, best, MB? If you´re that centered on always having to have the newest, best, whatever, then you are just like all the PC Gamers who buy new graphics cards every 3 months - fanboys, nerds, geeks, what have you. Either shell out the extra cash for the MBP or GROW UP! Standards change. No one is forcing you to buy a new MB, are they? I quite admire Steve and Apple for their bold move. Does anyone have excerpts of the forum posts back when apple dropped the 3.5" floppies? Probably they´ll sound veeeery familiar....
Oh and by the way: I´ll gladly take up an objective discussion with anyone in the music or video business using FW-based hardware, as I´ve been doing so for the last 5 years too.
Dear moderator: pleeeeeease kill this totally unnecessary thread, won´t you?
Why should we kill a thread if so many are enjoying it?
It will die when it's ready.
At the time the Floppy drive was pulled from Apple's iMac, the Zip Drive was very prevelent
It wasn't included. It was an extra cost. People complained that they should have waited until writable CD drives were available.
Apple didn't include a DL-DVD burner in the first MacBook Pros only because no one made a drive that would fit in the case at that point, but as soon as it was available, they put it back in.
Almost a year later. So if you wanted an Intel Mac notebook and DL-DVD burner you were being forced to buy a 17" MBP or get an external drive. People complained that they should have waited until a DL-DVD burners were available.
PCMCIA cards is not superior to ExpressCards, so that argument does not apply.
I didn't say they were not "superior" tech. Being "superior" in one since doesn't equal usability if their are no cards available. People complained that they should have waited until a 3rd-party EC cards were available.
I'm not in the market for a MacBook, so this isn't a big deal, I just hope it is not a trend that goes to it's other lines. But I think I will predict we will see FireWire back in the MacBook by the next revision.
Do you see the trend there? Apple is doing what is best for Apple, not what is best for the short-term needs of a very small group of complainers. I use FW400 and wish it still had it, but you don't see me complaining that Apple is somehow not being Apple or that Apple is doomed.
As for the next revision, if you mean the next speed bump for the new cases, then it absolutely will not be getting FW back in them as I doubt you can find a precedence where Apple has done a major case and MoBo alteration mid-cycle. If you mean, the next case in 3 years, I think that will depend on the success of the FW800/3200 interface port over the next couple years in comparison to other options. It may behoove Apple to include FW3200 in 3 years, only keep it as a 'pro' feature, or get rid of it altogether. To much can happen in 3 years.
For comparison, this time 3 years ago we knew Apple was switching to Intel, but didn't know what the machines would look like or that they would be introduced in just few months, well ahead of schedule. And the very first iPod Nano had just come out the month before, replacing the HDD-based iPod Mini.
Yeah the move from SCSI was a huge upgrade problem. Downgrade really as it was to a slower interface. But this is exactly the problem, it wasn't nice then and it's not nice now and they didn't really have to do it this time. The ethernet vs FW400 isn't the issue because the old model had both, The FW400 plug needed to be replaced with the new model, instead they just scrapped FW altogether.
I don't think people would mind quite so much if Apple offered guidance on where they go from here. Presumably people are expected to buy cameras like this one:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B...pf_rd_i=468294
I would say fair enough, that looks affordable, USB support, HD but hang on Apple, where is the software support for AVCHD? Hmmm, need to upgrade all the software to the latest versions. Mo money:
http://suburbia.org.uk/blog/2007/07/28/175003.html
But then you have to weigh up whether or not you take the money for a FCS upgrade (if you have a lower version or an alternate product) + a new camera and instead just buy a MBP and keep the camera you have.
I think consumers are reaching a point where Apple's choices forcing them to spend so much not only on the machines themselves but on everything else to be compatible are getting tiresome.
And that's from a company that used to live up to its "its just works" motto.
There are 20 pages of examples of Apple removing one technology and replacing it with a less usable one. FW400 wasn't even close to the first, and I'm sure it won't be the be last. They don't change their casing mid stream, so the ports you have now are what you'll have for the next 3 years.
Ah!
I'm happy you brought up the port thingie.
I've been giving this some thought, and what I've come up with could be good news.
As we all know, Apple sticks to a particular case design for a long time. I suppose there could be two reasons for that.
The first is that, except for the old 8x00 and 9x00 series machines, Apple's cases have been quite good. Better than that found in the PC industry. No reason to change from a superior design unless you have a better one.
Two is the cost and time factor in designing and manufacturing new cases. It's very expensive to do this.
The reason why is simple. Other than the design process itself, there is the way it's manufactured. And that's the big problem!
All cases are manufactured using several techniques. For the metal parts there is stamping sheet metal. That's not a biggie, and is really cheap to do. But in order to do that, dies must be designed and manufactured for the stampers. Those can cost $250,000 for large versions. Several must be used for different parts of the case, costing different amounts, and it's possible that several may be needed for several stampers. Dies must also be designed and manufactured for the presses to form the metal. Same thing about costs there. Then for portables, has been the precision castings for the interior supports the boards are mounted on. In addition to the design of those, molds must also be designed and tested.
For plastic parts, injection molds must also be designed and manufactured.
This is a costly and time consuming process all around. It can take months.
If a small change, such as a new port, or an adjustment to an opening must be made, either new dies, or molds, or castings, must again be designed and manufactured. That's in addition to the new mobo (which, being electronics is much easier, and cheaper, to do).
Very expensive to make a minor change.
But, now that Apple is machining its laptop cases, things are vastly different!
While it does cost more to manufacture these cases (at least in the beginning), there are many advantages to it.
The main ones we already know. The strength, the simplicity, the ability Apple now has to arrange the interior the way it wants to without having to worry about internal bracing, etc.
But, to me, just as important is the flexibility Apple has gained.
By machining each case (at least the bottom, and most important part), Apple has the ability to make changes on a daily basis (almost). If a redesign in the case is needed, the design can be made, the "G" code written up and downloaded to ONE machine. Then a slab of machinable wax is put into the vise setup and machined. If nothing is wrong, then a billet of Al is inserted, and a case is made.
The design time for the case now takes far longer than getting a real Al sample. No longer do handmade models need to be produced before tooling is manufactured.
If all is needed is a hole for a new port, or an adjusted size hole is needed, it can be designed in the morning (it's a very small detail), the "G" code can be written in the afternoon (again, a small detail), and the next day both the wax, and then the Al case comes back to the design lab.
If all is well, the new codes can be downloaded to all the mills, and the new design can be executed the next day.
Truly revolutionary, just as Jobs said.
No one else, as far as we know is doing this for computer cases.
But, now that Apple is machining its laptop cases, things are vastly different!
That is an excellent point!
No one else, as far as we know is doing this for computer cases.
I wonder if anyone can follow Apple's lead here, or do they have to many varying machine types without enough bulk sales on the higher-end to make the investment worthwhile.
I'm still holding out for 1394c "FireWire over Ethernet" to be ratified, adopted and implemented... but I don't see Apple adopting it.
There are 20 pages of examples of Apple removing one technology and replacing it with a less usable one. FW400 wasn't even close to the first, and I'm sure it won't be the be last. They don't change their casing mid stream, so the ports you have now are what you'll have for the next 3 years.
USing your argument, then Panasonic ToughBooks should be cheap, since they use older components with lower performance. Yet, they cost more than comparable machines. Could it be that the production and build quality of a product is a consideration for pricing? What about the materials used? Does glass, aluminium, and being environmentally conscious not cost more than non-biodegradable injection molded plastic case? What about the parts being used? Are you comparing what can go into a 2" notebook with can go into a <1" notebook?
I you're forgetting the first 15" MBP(MA600LL) that came out in May 2006. It only had the one FW400 port. But at the next refresh in October of that same year, which I believe is about 5-6 months, the MBP(MA609LL) had both the FW400 AND FW800 ports. So don't tell me that they don't change their casing mid stream. I'd like to see one FW800 port on the MB and two FW800 on the MBP. And if you check with Mactracker you'll see for yourself.
You might want look into where the ToughBook is produced. I might be made in Japan. Both the MB & MBP are made in CHINA where labor is supposedly dirt cheap. If you don't think so then ask the hundreds of thousands of people who've lost their jobs in this country! It might cost $5-$10 per unit to put the FW ports on the MB & MBP.
That is an excellent point!
I wonder if anyone can follow Apple's lead here, or do they have to many varying machine types without enough bulk sales on the higher-end to make the investment worthwhile.
I'm still holding out for 1394c "FireWire over Ethernet" to be ratified, adopted and implemented... but I don't see Apple adopting it.
It's interesting about Apple.
While they sell far less machines than the rest of the industry, in recent years, they likely sell more of any one model (for laptops at least) than almost anyone else, because they have so few models when compared to almost anyone else.
This likely wouldn't pay for most other manufacturers, because they wouldn't want to pay, and charge so much for them. Apple's old cases already usually cost more, other than for possible, carbon fiber cases, assuming they really ARE carbon fiber cases, and not just regular cases with a thin surface of carbon fiber.
I you're forgetting the first 15" MBP(MA600LL) that came out in May 2006. It only had the one FW400 port. But at the next refresh in October of that same year, which I believe is about 5-6 months, the MBP(MA609LL) had both the FW400 AND FW800 ports. So don't tell me that they don't change their casing mid stream. I'd like to see one FW800 port on the MB and two FW800 on the MBP. And if you check with Mactracker you'll see for yourself.
You're right, i did overlook that fact. The 15" MBP was announced in January, shipped in February, and it wasn't until the C2D model in October (8 months later) that saw a FW800 & and DL-DVD burner. Maybe that petition will work after all.
Also according to MacTracker, the previous 15" PowerBooks had FW800 and FW400, so you can chock that up as another example of Apple removing a higher function technology without having anything better and usable to replace it with.
I you're forgetting the first 15" MBP(MA600LL) that came out in May 2006. It only had the one FW400 port. But at the next refresh in October of that same year, which I believe is about 5-6 months, the MBP(MA609LL) had both the FW400 AND FW800 ports. So don't tell me that they don't change their casing mid stream. I'd like to see one FW800 port on the MB and two FW800 on the MBP. And if you check with Mactracker you'll see for yourself.
That's rare indeed!
At the time FW 800 seemed to be a big deal, but not any longer. It's getting less support as time goes on, and it never had much at its peak. there is no way I can imagine the MB getting it. Apple has always reserved it for their more expensive laptops, and only earlier this year put one on the iMac. If there's enough demand, possibly, 400 may return.
You might want look into where the ToughBook is produced. I might be made in Japan. Both the MB & MBP are made in CHINA where labor is supposedly dirt cheap. If you don't think so then ask the hundreds of thousands of people who've lost their jobs in this country! It might cost $5-$10 per unit to put the FW ports on the MB & MBP.
That has nothing to do with it.
Inferior to having nothing? It's quite comparable as they were not replaced with another writable media right away. The iMacs only had a CD reader, not a writer.
And Apple publicly admitted missing the boat on CD-R.
At the time FW 800 seemed to be a big deal, but not any longer. It's getting less support as time goes on, and it never had much at its peak. there is no way I can imagine the MB getting it. Apple has always reserved it for their more expensive laptops, and only earlier this year put one on the iMac. If there's enough demand, possibly, 400 may return.
I'm just baffled at the decision to unnecessarily remove FireWire from a $1300 notebook, it just doesn't make sence, and they can only chalk it up to "because I said so" as the reason.
You'll find the demand is definately there. I don't personally know a Mac user that doesn't have a plethora of FireWire Devices they rely on all the time. And the sheer fact that Canon does not have a single MiniDV camera not using FireWire exclusively to import video will push that as well. FireWire just does everything better. I could see if there were some advantages to USB 2.0, but there aren't. Maybe they have something new on the horizon, who knows, I can generally understand where Apple is going with most of their palns, and I am generally out there explaining the logic, but in this case, I am having a hard time...