I admire really your knowledge about the field and I follow your posts with pleasure. I learned a lot during your last posts!
I understand, if Sony changes their specs and delivers their camcorders and notebooks with usb, because they want sell their new products. But Apple built up a good reputation in the movie and music industry and exactly these guys are unsetteled, if apple will be the right partner in the future (Avid, ProTools also running on Windows). They are using cams and interfaces with FW. They won't throw away their equipment because Apple changes their specs. They will look for alternatives. As long Apple supports their Equipment it's ok, but if not they will change and Apple will loose shares in the market. !!!???
Yup! Apple is taking a bit of a risk there, no doubt. One I would have preferred they didn't take.
But, you know, this will make the manufacturers think hard about this. They will be more inclined than ever to eliminate FW from their new devices. They see the handwriting.
A move back to parallel wired connections won't happen--serial wired connections have been replacing parallel for some time. That's one of the things that the move from SCSI to Firewire and USB was about--serial means thinner cables, simpler electronics, etc. To be a proper substitute for parallel, serial was made faster, or potentially faster, and that speed increase continues in newer designs. One of the main problems with Apple dropping Firewire on the Air and new Macbook, was that they did it before its replacements--USB 3, etc.--were ready.
Another factor in Firewire's demise, is that it wasn't developed at Intel, nor supported by them very much, and Apple wants to go with Intel for as much of its chipsets as possible, mainly for better pricing, but also to rely on fewer companies for development of the chips Apple uses--it streamlines Apple's development process.
Here's an old article that still has some relevant info on where Apple went wrong with Firewire, and some of the reasons why their dumb decisions resulted in Apple phasing out Firewire:
But, you know, this will make the manufacturers think hard about this. They will be more inclined than ever to eliminate FW from their new devices. They see the handwriting.
Yes, I agree. Somebody has to begin, but Apple could do it smoother. As you see in this forum and not only in this forum, a lot of customers are disappointed about Apples behaviour to do it without offering a really good alternative. Ok, we have the Pro Devices, but many Pro's prefer to use a MacBook, because it's small and offer enough processor power for their needs.
Don't forget that we also use FW hubs for pretty much the same reason.
In theory, you shouldn't need them for either standard, but that's theory.
Not to be drug in again, and it may seem anticdotal, but I've got 8 FireWire devices plugged into a Mac at home and have never ONCE needed a hub, the only reason you really would even need a hub is to provide more power if devices are FireWire powered; with 45W going through the port, it isn't normally needed. I've got 8 USB devices plugged into another Mac and 2 of them are hubs, I've had to replace those hubs more than enything and they weren't cheap hubs. Needless to say the cabling gets to be a nightmare when you have all these DC powered items and powered hubs and USB cables are all over.
MacBook w/FW400 is $999. But I suspect many want the *newest* looking MacBook so they can seem more cutting edge.
Look is nice of course, but what people really want is the fast graphics, bus & memory on it. For those who want that.. they need to wait a couple of months or check constantly the "Apples hot deals" cause I am sure they will have soon enough a refurbished new MBP soon.
Don't forget that we also use FW hubs for pretty much the same reason.
In theory, you shouldn't need them for either standard, but that's theory.
There is no daisy-chain available for USB though. Maybe it's less than optimal to chain FW, but as far as I've seen, chaining is reliable and more FW devices chain than not. With USB, a device that chains is really a hub and the drive is behind that hub, topographically speaking.
I admire really your knowledge about the field and I follow your posts with pleasure. I learned a lot during your last posts!
I understand, if Sony changes their specs and delivers their camcorders and notebooks with usb, because they want sell their new products. But Apple built up a good reputation in the movie and music industry and exactly these guys are unsetteled, if apple will be the right partner in the future (Avid, ProTools also running on Windows). They are using cams and interfaces with FW. They won't throw away their equipment because Apple changes their specs. They will look for alternatives. As long Apple supports their Equipment it's ok, but if not they will change and Apple will loose shares in the market. !!!???
Hello there, when you have expensive video cameras you don't use it as spooler, the reason for this is that the heads wear down sooner. Most of them (Pro's & TV/Motion Picture Production Houses) use a deck and if we talk about really pro they will use a native Avid solution or a AJA Kona Card or the low end a Matrox XMO that handles "HD/SD-SDI input/outputs" and will use for sure a really expensive deck as Panasonic AJ-HD1800 DVCPRO HD ($49,999.00) or a Sony HDWM2000/20 ($65,088.00) that both are multi format and make a greater bang for the buck.
No consumer camera has SDI output. Those features are loaded up on cameras worth 20K and beyond and believe me, NO ONE plugs it thru FW to use it as spooler.
There are many more decks and cameras but the durability of the heads on the deck make it a no brainer. Change heads on a Profesional video camera will take a lot of time and will cost several thousands.
Panasonic's Varicam cameras start at 40k up to 100k fully loaded and Sony's Cinealta goes up to 150k.
Really... Movie, TV show & Add industry will not get hurt cause a MacBook got rid of FW.
Look is nice of course, but what people really want is the fast graphics, bus & memory on it. For those who want that they need to wait a couple of months or check constantly the "Apples hot deals" cause I am sure they will have soon enough a refurbished new MBP soon.
I'll say it again: I think the real reason "Pros" bought MacBook is because it could supplement Pro equipment and functions in a small form-factor and at reasonable cost. If Apple introduced a 13" MBP priced less than a 15" but above a MacBook, I think few "pros" would consider the MacBook any longer. I owned an early MacBook (500MHz USB) and replaced it with a 12" PB 867MHz as soon as I could get my hands on one.
Still, such a product introduction wouldn't relieve the issue of existing consumer markets that Apple has wooed in the past with winning combinations of iLife and FW that are no longer compatible with their existing camcorders and the new MacBook, or the Target Disk mode issue.
I'll say it again: I think the real reason "Pros" bought MacBook is because it could supplement Pro equipment and functions in a small form-factor and at reasonable cost. If Apple introduced a 13" MBP priced less than a 15" but above a MacBook, I think few "pros" would consider the MacBook any longer. I owned an early MacBook (500MHz USB) and replaced it with a 12" PB 867MHz as soon as I could get my hands on one.
Still, such a product introduction wouldn't relieve the issue of existing consumer markets that Apple has wooed in the past with winning combinations of iLife and FW that are no longer compatible with their existing camcorders and the new MacBook, or the Target Disk mode issue.
I think the only Pro's or enthusiast that would love a MacBook with firewire will be DJ's and people who work with audio and has some or several FW Audio rigs. Or the wedding shooter or a school teacher and mostly cause they are on a budget.
Are you suggesting the only thing cutting edge about the new MacBooks are their looks?
My first sentence was an option to getting FW without having to buy a MBP. My sentence was stating that some people won't see that as a viable solution because they want "the new hotness", even though it doesn't suit their needs for FireWire. There are plenty of new things in the new MacBook design that are well beyond their looks or even having to do with the case at all, which is quite revolutionary for notebook manufacturing process.
No consumer camera has SDI output. Those features are loaded up on cameras worth 20K and beyond and believe me, NO ONE plugs it thru FW to use it as spooler.
There are many more decks and cameras but the durability of the heads on the deck make it a no brainer. Change heads on a Profesional video camera will take a lot of time and will cost several thousands.
My Sony PMW-EX1 has HD/SDI as well as FireWire, but at $6500, it could only be considered a well-heeled PROsumer camera, not a typical family cam.
I absolutely agree with all your other points. When I went looking for a high-quality camcorder to buy, I ended up choosing the all-digital XDCAM Sony precisely because I could buy an enhanced quality HD camcorder (and not wear out heads and moving-part mechanisms) instead of buying a lower-quality DV tape-based cam for $2000 AND need a $4500 DV tape deck to safely transfer video to disc.
In the near future, solid-state media will likely replace video tape altogether, although currently there are numerous pros warning early adopters of digital file-based video that without master tapes, there is no acceptable long-term archival scenario for their work.
My first sentence was an option to getting FW without having to buy a MBP. My sentence was stating that some people won't see that as a viable solution because they want "the new hotness", even though it doesn't suit their needs for FireWire. There are plenty of new things in the new MacBook design that are well beyond their looks or even having to do with the case at all, which is quite revolutionary for notebook manufacturing process.
Revolutionary is such a tired word. CNC milling has been around for a while.
"Involving or causing a complete or dramatic change"
I love the design and durability of the new Macbooks but calling them dramatic is a bit of a stretch even if we're talking production.
I doubt you're going to see PC companies follow suit because they option has been there for them as well but they are far more price sensitive than Apple. They actually have to compete with other vendors.
I think the only Pro's or enthusiast that would love a MacBook with firewire will be DJ's and people who work with audio and has some or several FW Audio rigs. Or the wedding shooter or a school teacher and mostly cause they are on a budget.
Early in the Afghanistan war, networks (CNN, NBC notably) were equipping reporters with small Panny and Sony DV cams and MacBooks to do their coverage in iMovie and then upload it by satellite link. If a computer is gonna eventually get trashed in harsh conditions, the cheapest one that does the job saves money in the long run.
And I wouldn't dismiss wedding shooters -- that's a huge industry, and there are some people making serious money in it (enuff to qualify as Obama corporate tax targets), especially as the kids who have grown up immersed in a video world become marrying age. (That said, there's a lot of people who are opting for their own cheap cams to record, because (let's face it) you can only watch a wedding so many times before you wonder why you dropped a couple grand on the video of it.)
My Sony PMW-EX1 has HD/SDI as well as FireWire, but at $6500, it could only be considered a well-heeled PROsumer camera, not a typical family cam.
I absolutely agree with all your other points. When I went looking for a high-quality camcorder to buy, I ended up choosing the all-digital XDCAM Sony precisely because I could buy an enhanced quality HD camcorder (and not wear out heads and moving-part mechanisms) instead of buying a lower-quality DV tape-based cam for $2000 AND need a $4500 DV tape deck to safely transfer video to disc.
In the near future, solid-state media will likely replace video tape altogether, although currently there are numerous pros warning early adopters of digital file-based video that without master tapes, there is no acceptable long-term archival scenario for their work.
As I said, NO CONSUMER camera has SDI, yours is a PRO CineAlta, that is also why I didn't pointed to the entry level price of Sony HD acquisition as I did with Panasonic, they have P2 but not as good as your camera.
I saw a Demo of it about 2 weeks ago and it is a really nice camera with very but very nice video quality, very lil noise or artifacts. In hands of an expert you can do gorgeous work.
Revolutionary is such a tired word. CNC milling has been around for a while.
The type of close-tolerance machining used in high-volume production today is far different than it was even a few years ago. If other laptop makers have never used it (regardless of reason) and Apple now does, it's revolutionary by description.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison
I love the design and durability of the new Macbooks but calling them dramatic is a bit of a stretch even if we're talking production.
It would be very hard to hold a new milled Aluminum MacBook next to a previous generation plastic one and not find it "dramatically" different. For one thing, it doesn't have FW...
So ideally, the $999 Macbook wins here hands down, right?
Hello Bancho, are you planing to buy a new lap top? and most importantly.. what you plan to do with it?
It really depends on what you do or might do in the future, technology always evolve and maybe FW seems to be important but that only matter is you have a FW device to hook on it. If you don't have such a device yet and plan to purchase one. Make a litle stop and search again for options using USB2. I am sure you could work out a nice setting with the base new MacBook and the device you intend to purchase.
Comments
I admire really your knowledge about the field and I follow your posts with pleasure. I learned a lot during your last posts!
I understand, if Sony changes their specs and delivers their camcorders and notebooks with usb, because they want sell their new products. But Apple built up a good reputation in the movie and music industry and exactly these guys are unsetteled, if apple will be the right partner in the future (Avid, ProTools also running on Windows). They are using cams and interfaces with FW. They won't throw away their equipment because Apple changes their specs. They will look for alternatives. As long Apple supports their Equipment it's ok, but if not they will change and Apple will loose shares in the market. !!!???
Yup! Apple is taking a bit of a risk there, no doubt. One I would have preferred they didn't take.
But, you know, this will make the manufacturers think hard about this. They will be more inclined than ever to eliminate FW from their new devices. They see the handwriting.
A move back to parallel wired connections won't happen--serial wired connections have been replacing parallel for some time. That's one of the things that the move from SCSI to Firewire and USB was about--serial means thinner cables, simpler electronics, etc. To be a proper substitute for parallel, serial was made faster, or potentially faster, and that speed increase continues in newer designs. One of the main problems with Apple dropping Firewire on the Air and new Macbook, was that they did it before its replacements--USB 3, etc.--were ready.
Another factor in Firewire's demise, is that it wasn't developed at Intel, nor supported by them very much, and Apple wants to go with Intel for as much of its chipsets as possible, mainly for better pricing, but also to rely on fewer companies for development of the chips Apple uses--it streamlines Apple's development process.
Here's an old article that still has some relevant info on where Apple went wrong with Firewire, and some of the reasons why their dumb decisions resulted in Apple phasing out Firewire:
http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=1104
That's a very good article. It does set the facts straight. too bad it comes from 2002, so nothing newer is said.
But, you know, this will make the manufacturers think hard about this. They will be more inclined than ever to eliminate FW from their new devices. They see the handwriting.
Yes, I agree. Somebody has to begin, but Apple could do it smoother. As you see in this forum and not only in this forum, a lot of customers are disappointed about Apples behaviour to do it without offering a really good alternative. Ok, we have the Pro Devices, but many Pro's prefer to use a MacBook, because it's small and offer enough processor power for their needs.
Ok, we have the Pro Devices, but many Pro's prefer to use a MacBook, because it's small and offer enough processor power for their needs.
MacBook w/FW400 is $999. But I suspect many want the *newest* looking MacBook so they can seem more cutting edge.
Don't forget that we also use FW hubs for pretty much the same reason.
In theory, you shouldn't need them for either standard, but that's theory.
Not to be drug in again, and it may seem anticdotal, but I've got 8 FireWire devices plugged into a Mac at home and have never ONCE needed a hub, the only reason you really would even need a hub is to provide more power if devices are FireWire powered; with 45W going through the port, it isn't normally needed. I've got 8 USB devices plugged into another Mac and 2 of them are hubs, I've had to replace those hubs more than enything and they weren't cheap hubs. Needless to say the cabling gets to be a nightmare when you have all these DC powered items and powered hubs and USB cables are all over.
MacBook w/FW400 is $999. But I suspect many want the *newest* looking MacBook so they can seem more cutting edge.
Look is nice of course, but what people really want is the fast graphics, bus & memory on it. For those who want that.. they need to wait a couple of months or check constantly the "Apples hot deals" cause I am sure they will have soon enough a refurbished new MBP soon.
Don't forget that we also use FW hubs for pretty much the same reason.
In theory, you shouldn't need them for either standard, but that's theory.
There is no daisy-chain available for USB though. Maybe it's less than optimal to chain FW, but as far as I've seen, chaining is reliable and more FW devices chain than not. With USB, a device that chains is really a hub and the drive is behind that hub, topographically speaking.
MacBook w/FW400 is $999. But I suspect many want the *newest* looking MacBook so they can seem more cutting edge.
Are you suggesting the only thing cutting edge about the new MacBooks are their looks?
I admire really your knowledge about the field and I follow your posts with pleasure. I learned a lot during your last posts!
I understand, if Sony changes their specs and delivers their camcorders and notebooks with usb, because they want sell their new products. But Apple built up a good reputation in the movie and music industry and exactly these guys are unsetteled, if apple will be the right partner in the future (Avid, ProTools also running on Windows). They are using cams and interfaces with FW. They won't throw away their equipment because Apple changes their specs. They will look for alternatives. As long Apple supports their Equipment it's ok, but if not they will change and Apple will loose shares in the market. !!!???
Hello there, when you have expensive video cameras you don't use it as spooler, the reason for this is that the heads wear down sooner. Most of them (Pro's & TV/Motion Picture Production Houses) use a deck and if we talk about really pro they will use a native Avid solution or a AJA Kona Card or the low end a Matrox XMO that handles "HD/SD-SDI input/outputs" and will use for sure a really expensive deck as Panasonic AJ-HD1800 DVCPRO HD ($49,999.00) or a Sony HDWM2000/20 ($65,088.00) that both are multi format and make a greater bang for the buck.
No consumer camera has SDI output. Those features are loaded up on cameras worth 20K and beyond and believe me, NO ONE plugs it thru FW to use it as spooler.
There are many more decks and cameras but the durability of the heads on the deck make it a no brainer. Change heads on a Profesional video camera will take a lot of time and will cost several thousands.
Panasonic's Varicam cameras start at 40k up to 100k fully loaded and Sony's Cinealta goes up to 150k.
Really... Movie, TV show & Add industry will not get hurt cause a MacBook got rid of FW.
http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-bro.../cat-cinealta/
http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp...GroupId=112002
Are you suggesting the only thing cutting edge about the new MacBooks are their looks?
I really don't think he is, though I can see how what he said can be misinterpreted to think he said that.
Look is nice of course, but what people really want is the fast graphics, bus & memory on it. For those who want that they need to wait a couple of months or check constantly the "Apples hot deals" cause I am sure they will have soon enough a refurbished new MBP soon.
I'll say it again: I think the real reason "Pros" bought MacBook is because it could supplement Pro equipment and functions in a small form-factor and at reasonable cost. If Apple introduced a 13" MBP priced less than a 15" but above a MacBook, I think few "pros" would consider the MacBook any longer. I owned an early MacBook (500MHz USB) and replaced it with a 12" PB 867MHz as soon as I could get my hands on one.
Still, such a product introduction wouldn't relieve the issue of existing consumer markets that Apple has wooed in the past with winning combinations of iLife and FW that are no longer compatible with their existing camcorders and the new MacBook, or the Target Disk mode issue.
I'll say it again: I think the real reason "Pros" bought MacBook is because it could supplement Pro equipment and functions in a small form-factor and at reasonable cost. If Apple introduced a 13" MBP priced less than a 15" but above a MacBook, I think few "pros" would consider the MacBook any longer. I owned an early MacBook (500MHz USB) and replaced it with a 12" PB 867MHz as soon as I could get my hands on one.
Still, such a product introduction wouldn't relieve the issue of existing consumer markets that Apple has wooed in the past with winning combinations of iLife and FW that are no longer compatible with their existing camcorders and the new MacBook, or the Target Disk mode issue.
I think the only Pro's or enthusiast that would love a MacBook with firewire will be DJ's and people who work with audio and has some or several FW Audio rigs. Or the wedding shooter or a school teacher and mostly cause they are on a budget.
Are you suggesting the only thing cutting edge about the new MacBooks are their looks?
My first sentence was an option to getting FW without having to buy a MBP. My sentence was stating that some people won't see that as a viable solution because they want "the new hotness", even though it doesn't suit their needs for FireWire. There are plenty of new things in the new MacBook design that are well beyond their looks or even having to do with the case at all, which is quite revolutionary for notebook manufacturing process.
No consumer camera has SDI output. Those features are loaded up on cameras worth 20K and beyond and believe me, NO ONE plugs it thru FW to use it as spooler.
There are many more decks and cameras but the durability of the heads on the deck make it a no brainer. Change heads on a Profesional video camera will take a lot of time and will cost several thousands.
My Sony PMW-EX1 has HD/SDI as well as FireWire, but at $6500, it could only be considered a well-heeled PROsumer camera, not a typical family cam.
I absolutely agree with all your other points. When I went looking for a high-quality camcorder to buy, I ended up choosing the all-digital XDCAM Sony precisely because I could buy an enhanced quality HD camcorder (and not wear out heads and moving-part mechanisms) instead of buying a lower-quality DV tape-based cam for $2000 AND need a $4500 DV tape deck to safely transfer video to disc.
In the near future, solid-state media will likely replace video tape altogether, although currently there are numerous pros warning early adopters of digital file-based video that without master tapes, there is no acceptable long-term archival scenario for their work.
My first sentence was an option to getting FW without having to buy a MBP. My sentence was stating that some people won't see that as a viable solution because they want "the new hotness", even though it doesn't suit their needs for FireWire. There are plenty of new things in the new MacBook design that are well beyond their looks or even having to do with the case at all, which is quite revolutionary for notebook manufacturing process.
Revolutionary is such a tired word. CNC milling has been around for a while.
"Involving or causing a complete or dramatic change"
I love the design and durability of the new Macbooks but calling them dramatic is a bit of a stretch even if we're talking production.
I doubt you're going to see PC companies follow suit because they option has been there for them as well but they are far more price sensitive than Apple. They actually have to compete with other vendors.
I think the only Pro's or enthusiast that would love a MacBook with firewire will be DJ's and people who work with audio and has some or several FW Audio rigs. Or the wedding shooter or a school teacher and mostly cause they are on a budget.
Early in the Afghanistan war, networks (CNN, NBC notably) were equipping reporters with small Panny and Sony DV cams and MacBooks to do their coverage in iMovie and then upload it by satellite link. If a computer is gonna eventually get trashed in harsh conditions, the cheapest one that does the job saves money in the long run.
And I wouldn't dismiss wedding shooters -- that's a huge industry, and there are some people making serious money in it (enuff to qualify as Obama corporate tax targets), especially as the kids who have grown up immersed in a video world become marrying age. (That said, there's a lot of people who are opting for their own cheap cams to record, because (let's face it) you can only watch a wedding so many times before you wonder why you dropped a couple grand on the video of it.)
My Sony PMW-EX1 has HD/SDI as well as FireWire, but at $6500, it could only be considered a well-heeled PROsumer camera, not a typical family cam.
I absolutely agree with all your other points. When I went looking for a high-quality camcorder to buy, I ended up choosing the all-digital XDCAM Sony precisely because I could buy an enhanced quality HD camcorder (and not wear out heads and moving-part mechanisms) instead of buying a lower-quality DV tape-based cam for $2000 AND need a $4500 DV tape deck to safely transfer video to disc.
In the near future, solid-state media will likely replace video tape altogether, although currently there are numerous pros warning early adopters of digital file-based video that without master tapes, there is no acceptable long-term archival scenario for their work.
As I said, NO CONSUMER camera has SDI, yours is a PRO CineAlta, that is also why I didn't pointed to the entry level price of Sony HD acquisition as I did with Panasonic, they have P2 but not as good as your camera.
I saw a Demo of it about 2 weeks ago and it is a really nice camera with very but very nice video quality, very lil noise or artifacts. In hands of an expert you can do gorgeous work.
Congratulations!
If a computer is gonna eventually get trashed in harsh conditions, the cheapest one that does the job saves money in the long run
So ideally, the $999 Macbook wins here hands down, right?
Revolutionary is such a tired word. CNC milling has been around for a while.
The type of close-tolerance machining used in high-volume production today is far different than it was even a few years ago. If other laptop makers have never used it (regardless of reason) and Apple now does, it's revolutionary by description.
I love the design and durability of the new Macbooks but calling them dramatic is a bit of a stretch even if we're talking production.
It would be very hard to hold a new milled Aluminum MacBook next to a previous generation plastic one and not find it "dramatically" different. For one thing, it doesn't have FW...
So ideally, the $999 Macbook wins here hands down, right?
Hello Bancho, are you planing to buy a new lap top? and most importantly.. what you plan to do with it?
It really depends on what you do or might do in the future, technology always evolve and maybe FW seems to be important but that only matter is you have a FW device to hook on it. If you don't have such a device yet and plan to purchase one. Make a litle stop and search again for options using USB2. I am sure you could work out a nice setting with the base new MacBook and the device you intend to purchase.