"Revolutionary" strikes me as a stretch. I'd describe it as "a major evolution", "important" and "useful".
I feel as though it's revolutionary, because it's the first time anyone has ever made a manufacturing "just in time" case for a computer.
normally, just in time means that parts are ordered in a stream to just keep up with the manufacturing process.
This is very different. They can make just the number of cases they need, and time it much closer than they could with all the other parts, possibly being made in different factories by other companies. That's very difficult to coordinate. No one else is doing this for computers.
The same thing for just in time design. no one else is doing that either. Apple can go from design to prototype to cutting chips in a few days, if they want.
This can give them a major advantage over other companies, if they choose to work it that way.
Jobs' description of this indicated that it meant more to Apple than just the quality advantages. I think what I'm saying here indicates those other advantages.
My Sony PMW-EX1 has HD/SDI as well as FireWire, but at $6500, it could only be considered a well-heeled PROsumer camera, not a typical family cam.
I absolutely agree with all your other points. When I went looking for a high-quality camcorder to buy, I ended up choosing the all-digital XDCAM Sony precisely because I could buy an enhanced quality HD camcorder (and not wear out heads and moving-part mechanisms) instead of buying a lower-quality DV tape-based cam for $2000 AND need a $4500 DV tape deck to safely transfer video to disc.
In the near future, solid-state media will likely replace video tape altogether, although currently there are numerous pros warning early adopters of digital file-based video that without master tapes, there is no acceptable long-term archival scenario for their work.
Out of curiosity, how do you deal with the media cost? What I'm seeing is $500 for 8GB and that seems excessive to me. The media spec claims a data rate of 800 Mbit/s, but most of the XDCAM formats record around 50Mbps. I suppose it's handy for retrieving the files at 16x real time.
Out of curiosity, how do you deal with the media cost? What I'm seeing is $500 for 8GB and that seems excessive to me. The media spec claims a data rate of 800 Mbit/s, but most of the XDCAM formats record around 50Mbps. I suppose it's handy for retrieving the files at 16x real time.
These are industrial quality modules. It's like buying an Anton Baur battery and charger. Commercial users are pretty immune to cost.
Besides, those prices are much lower than they were two years ago when the first Panasonic came out.
I feel as though it's revolutionary, because it's the first time anyone has ever made a manufacturing "just in time" case for a computer.
normally, just in time means that parts are ordered in a stream to just keep up with the manufacturing process.
This is very different. They can make just the number of cases they need, and time it much closer than they could with all the other parts, possibly being made in different factories by other companies. That's very difficult to coordinate. No one else is doing this for computers.
The same thing for just in time design. no one else is doing that either. Apple can go from design to prototype to cutting chips in a few days, if they want.
This can give them a major advantage over other companies, if they choose to work it that way.
Jobs' description of this indicated that it meant more to Apple than just the quality advantages. I think what I'm saying here indicates those other advantages.
I think that's revolutionary.
I agree this is pretty new and significant. How about "nearly revolutionary"?
But then, I'm the type for whom revolutionary would require a laptop (or handheld) with something like a fold-out display that expands to at least a 24" Cinema Display.
I agree this is pretty new and significant. How about "nearly revolutionary"?
But then, I'm the type for whom revolutionary would require a laptop (or handheld) with something like a fold-out display that expands to at least a 24" Cinema Display.
Even that, by your definition would be an evolution of current displays. This is basically, more promising.
But, whatever word we use, this opens up a lot of new possibilities.
Out of curiosity, how do you deal with the media cost? What I'm seeing is $500 for 8GB and that seems excessive to me. The media spec claims a data rate of 800 Mbit/s, but most of the XDCAM formats record around 50Mbps. I suppose it's handy for retrieving the files at 16x real time.
Unfortunately, micro-biz people like me are NOT immune to costs, as melgross posted. True, if you really need something, you have to buy it, but like computers, you better be damn sure you can cost-justify it because next year it may be obsolete.
The Sony EX1 cam came with an 8gb SxS card, which is an Express Card/34 form (video pros are adamant you cannot use cheaper media cards to record on because of write speed limitations). It also had a rebate for a free 8gb card, allowing me to fill both media slots in the camera.
An 8gb card provides about 25-30 minutes of "high quality" 1080-resolution HD video, or nearly an hour of "standard quality" 720-resolution HD video, so I can do up to an hour of 1080 video before needing to dump files. With an Express Card slot in my MBP, it's a matter of drag-and-drop copying to the hard disk, and it only takes a couple minutes to dump an entire card. A 2.5" hard drive in an OWC FireWire bus-powered case allows me to backup video files in case one hard drive fails. Once copied to hard drive, the video is ready to edit and use.
Since I have no $15/per hour tape cost (figured at DVCAM quality, although the XDCAM video is far better), after about 33 hours of shooting, an 8gb media card would be paid for if not already supplied at purchase. Because video digitizing is near instantaneous rather than the 1:1 process of tape (1 hr of video = 1 hour of digitizing to disk), I'm also saving at least 30 hrs of my time (and wear and tear on a deck or camera heads) for this 33-hr payoff comparison period.
My planned usage doesn't require all-day shoots requiring mass numbers of cards to keep going (although I can dump a card so fast it's amazing). Filmmakers would probably rent the camera and extra media cards; I think wedding shooters might get by with a couple pair of 16gb cards for a full wedding and reception, but YMMV.
Because my planned use of this camera involves going to some reasonably accessible but sometimes distant locations in the wilderness, a portable laptop that can read my Express Card media and attach a external HD for backup is somewhat crucial. Backpacking the camera and tripod alone is a chore; adding a 15" MBP to the load is a bitch. I still have to carry rain gear, water & snacks, and other outdoor necessaries as well, although I'm not camping out with it.
This explains my severe interest in a MacBook with reduced size and an Express Card slot. (Note: Sony makes a USB2 card reader that some people have said isn't terribly painful to dump cards with, so a new MacBook might suffice, although the extra cost of the adapter would begin to approach MBP pricing.) I could dump video to disk to reuse my media cards, pop in a FW800 adapter and back it up (maybe not if it didn't provide bus-power, but that's really a "base camp" issue at night in a hotel, hopefully with power), pop in another card reader adapter and dump large file format stills from my Nikon. I'm to the point of investigating the low-cost HP 2133 Mini-Note as a means to dump and carry video and files until I can get back to civilization and a Mac at the end of the day for actual usage.
Sorry to take the thread off-course.
EDIT: melgross, since you're far more knowledgeable than I, do you know if an Express Card FW adapter caries bus power out to a drive, or would external power be required? I haven't had to go beyond the needs of my one FW800 port on my MBP, so I have no experience. I always figured I'd use an eSATA port adapter for hooking big drives to it via Express Card anyway.
Unfortunately, micro-biz people like me are NOT immune to costs, as melgross posted. True, if you really need something, you have to buy it, but like computers, you better be damn sure you can cost-justify it because next year it may be obsolete.
The Sony EX1 cam came with an 8gb SxS card, which is an Express Card/34 form (video pros are adamant you cannot use cheaper media cards to record on because of write speed limitations). It also had a rebate for a free 8gb card, allowing me to fill both media slots in the camera.
An 8gb card provides about 25-30 minutes of "high quality" 1080-resolution HD video, or nearly an hour of "standard quality" 720-resolution HD video, so I can do up to an hour of wide-screen hi-res video before needing to dump files. With an Express Card slot in my MBP, it's a matter of drag-and-drop copying to the hard disk, and it only takes a couple minutes to dump an entire card. A 2.5" hard drive in an OWC FireWire bus-powered case allows me to backup video files in case one hard drive fails. Once copied to hard drive, the video is ready to edit and use.
Since I have no $15/per hour tape cost (figured at DVCAM quality), after about 33 hours of shooting, an 8gb media card would be paid for if not already suplied at purchase. Because video digitizing is near instantaneous rather than the 1:1 process of tape (1 hr of video = 1 hour of digitizing to disk), I'm also saving at least 30 hrs of my time (and wear and tear on a deck or camera heads) for this 33-hr payoff comparison period.
My planned usage doesn't require all-day shoots requiring mass numbers of cards to keep going (although I can dump a card so fast it's amazing). Filmmakers would probably rent the camera and extra media cards; wedding shooters might get by with a couple pair of 16gb cards for a full wedding and reception.
Because my planned use of this camera involves going to some reasonably accessible but sometimes distant locations in the wilderness, a portable laptop that can read my Express Card media and attach a external HD for backup is somewhat crucial. Backpacking the camera and tripod alone is a chore; adding a 15" MBP to the load is a bitch. I still have to carry rain gear, water & snacks, and other outdoor necessaries as well, although I'm not camping out with it.
This explains my severe interest in a MacBook with reduced size and an Express Card slot. I could dump video to disk to reuse my media cards, pop in a FW800 adapter and back it up (maybe not if it didn't provide bus-power, but that's really a "base camp" issue at night in a hotel, hopefully with power), pop in another card reader adapter and dump large file format stills from my Nikon. I'm to the point of investigating the low-cost HP 2133 Mini-Note as a means to dump and carry video and files until I can get back to civilization and a Mac at the end of the day for actual usage.
Sorry to take the thread off-course.
Yes, of course, I wasn't referring to users such as yourself. But the commercial users to whom these cameras are targeted to, don't care. A camera like this could be taken to a situation where it could be abandoned, because of their cost (when compared to expensive models in the $20,000 price range, and up, as many ENG models are), and the cartridges would be able to take much more abuse in the rushed trip back.
Also, of course, they are reusable, as you see. Over time, the cost is, to some extent, recovered. The higher reliability of the cameras resulting from these "packs", and the longer run-time from the batteries make them well worth it, if that is needed.
Otherwise, right now, for most shooters under less conditions of stress ( and lower budgets), there are other cameras that would provide a better performance/cost ratio when several packs of these are added to the cost as compared to tape.
But remember that in commercial use, ENG tapes are rarely re-used. The tape is filed away, and a new one is issued. So over the long run, tape is expensive as well.
It's like the old iPhone for $600, and the new one at half the cost. One you pay for upfront, and the other you pay for over a period of time. Take your choice as to which is better.
Also, of course, they are reusable, as you see. Over time, the cost is, to some extent, recovered. The higher reliability of the cameras resulting from these "packs", and the longer run-time from the batteries make them well worth it, if that is needed.
Otherwise, right now, for most shooters under less conditions of stress ( and lower budgets), there are other cameras that would provide a better performance/cost ratio when several packs of these are added to the cost as compared to tape.
But remember that in commercial use, ENG tapes are rarely re-used. The tape is filed away, and a new one is issued. So over the long run, tape is expensive as well.
Yep the pro video world is fairly quickly moving away from tape. These prosumer cameras generally only have two card slots. While Panasonic's full professional ENG P2 camera has five card slots. With five 16GB cards the cameras can record 100 minutes of 1080P footage.
One major advantage of file based storage is it eliminates digitizing tape in real time. Moving a digital file is many times faster. Speed is important and the commercial world is willing to pay for it.
Yep the pro video world is fairly quickly moving away from tape. These prosumer cameras generally only have two card slots. While Panasonic's full professional ENG P2 camera has five card slots. With five 16GB cards the cameras can record 100 minutes of 1080P footage.
One major advantage of file based storage is it eliminates digitizing tape in real time. Moving a digital file is many times faster. Speed is important and the commercial world is willing to pay for it.
I think it's still a matter of picking your poison. You get away from potentially unreliable tape mechanisms and such, but to archive it, you're relying on potentially unreliable hard drive mechanisms that may or may not be able to power up of you let it sit for a couple years. Tapes often do last 20 years, I don't know if that can be said of hard drives.
Early in the Afghanistan war, networks (CNN, NBC notably) were equipping reporters with small Panny and Sony DV cams and MacBooks to do their coverage in iMovie and then upload it by satellite link. If a computer is gonna eventually get trashed in harsh conditions, the cheapest one that does the job saves money in the long run.
Except that Toughbooks really DO last a bit longer than their non-ruggedized counterparts. They don't run iMovie though.
What do you think of the Canon 5D Mk II to reduce weight? If you can work within its constraints, Laforet's short shows it can do some amazing things with such little light. It may be a "cologne commercial" as he describes it but it sure is a pretty one from a DSLR.
let's not forget that Apple dropped FW 800 from the the first two 2006 15" MacBook Pro models (after having it on 4 previous 15" PowerBook models) - then brought it back on the 15" MacBook Pro in Oct '06 in a somewhat sleazy marketing maneuver... i suspect they'll do away with FW 400 for good but bring back a FW 800 port on the MacBooks once FW 3200 comes out - they'd be utterly insane not to...
let's not forget that Apple dropped FW 800 from the the first two 2006 15" MacBook Pro models (after having it on 4 previous 15" PowerBook models) - then brought it back on the 15" MacBook Pro in Oct '06 in a somewhat sleazy marketing maneuver... i suspect they'll do away with FW 400 for good but bring back a FW 800 port on the MacBooks once FW 3200 comes out - they'd be utterly insane not to...
No. A thousand times no.
You don't throttle a bus speed and use it as a marketing upsell. Apple's not some cheesy internet provider.
Apple's boneheaded removal of Firewire from the MacBook has already damaged its own standard and segmenting the market isn't going to help. All Apple products should include the 3200 spec as soon as is possible.
That's the only way peripheral makers will take the move to 3200 seriously.
That's the only way peripheral makers will take the move to 3200 seriously.
I doubt that any ever will, now.
In my mind, Apple just killed Firewire dead. Nobody will trust them to support it anymore. I expect it will be completely eliminated from all Macs within a year, so I'll personally never buy a Firewire device again. (I currently own a half dozen but they're headed for eBay soon.) USB is it from now on.
Except that Toughbooks really DO last a bit longer than their non-ruggedized counterparts. They don't run iMovie though.
What do you think of the Canon 5D Mk II to reduce weight? If you can work within its constraints, Laforet's short shows it can do some amazing things with such little light. It may be a "cologne commercial" as he describes it but it sure is a pretty one from a DSLR.
I think there are suitable alternatives to iMovie on the PC side now...
If a DSLR can use a HD "back" for long capture and use the high-quality glass typical in still camera line-ups to achieve great depth of field, I think it will revolutionize video.
Oh wait, I forgot we're not supposed to use that word...
Can you imagine what you'd get with a Hassy or even a Bronica using this kind of technology? Unfortunately, we'll likely be stuck using a USB cable to download files...
Yep the pro video world is fairly quickly moving away from tape. These prosumer cameras generally only have two card slots. While Panasonic's full professional ENG P2 camera has five card slots. With five 16GB cards the cameras can record 100 minutes of 1080P footage.
One major advantage of file based storage is it eliminates digitizing tape in real time. Moving a digital file is many times faster. Speed is important and the commercial world is willing to pay for it.
People don't see the big bucks involved. A news program can cost a hundred thousand to produce, if it is network. The extra money for tape, or some solid state storage is nothing.
The world is now digital, and the first to go for digital cameras were the newspapers, the wire services, and the magazines. Time is money, and a scoop can be worth millions.
I think it's still a matter of picking your poison. You get away from potentially unreliable tape mechanisms and such, but to archive it, you're relying on potentially unreliable hard drive mechanisms that may or may not be able to power up of you let it sit for a couple years. Tapes often do last 20 years, I don't know if that can be said of hard drives.
It can be, and now sometimes is, archived on archival BD disks. That's plenty of storage room. The archival versions cost almost $30 per disk in single quantity right now, about what the first archival CD's and DVD's cost.
In my mind, Apple just killed Firewire dead. Nobody will trust them to support it anymore. I expect it will be completely eliminated from all Macs within a year, so I'll personally never buy a Firewire device again. (I currently own a half dozen but they're headed for eBay soon.) USB is it from now on.
I certainly hope FW isn't dead and there's been quite the opposite reaction from some peripheral makers and in some industries
- since there isn't a direct replacement yet for FW
(and no one can tell me what that replacement technology is / will be for p2p hot swap networking with decent power transmission).
Remember that we're only talking about 1 (more) Apple model
- no one was surprised when the Air left off FW & direct GigE because that was done to save weight/size.
Thus I don't think you can put that model in the equation. So the only other model to use to generate a 'trend' is the ipod
which is a completely different unit - and the change happened years ago.
Anyway I'd be interested to know what devices you have - and what you plan to replace them with...
If it's just HDDs then you should be fine - you can hope for ESATA or just waste a litte more time with USB2
...but if those devices have/need any degree of stand-alone function or intelligence then there aren't too many options.
As a slight side point - what do you folks think about the idea that Lockheed Martin
recently chose to put the FW standard (no idea what actual connectors or speed used) in their new
Development programs of 62 billion USD and unit cost of 140 million USD (for the F22 alone) so paying to develop a future/expensive/pending technology obviously wasn't an issue...
Remembering that these fighter jets are the pinnacle of US technology (for the F22 and the F35 is international)
and typically have a lifetime of 20+ years.
That says a lot about how at least one segment of modern international industry sees the IEEE-1394 standard
- in their opinion (at least) FW is far from dead.
Development programs of 62 billion USD and unit cost of 140 million USD (for the F22 alone) so paying to develop a future/expensive/pending technology obviously wasn't an issue...
Remembering that these fighter jets are the pinnacle of US technology (for the F22 and the F35 is international)
and typically have a lifetime of 20+ years.
That says a lot about how at least one segment of modern international industry sees the IEEE-1394 standard
- in their opinion (at least) FW is far from dead.
The military has been using more commercial technologies for years. They've been ordered to do so to, yes, save money. How many tens of (or more likely, hundreds of) millions would it cost to develop a new technology that would accomplish, what?
But this has no relation to what happens in the rest of the tech world.
Remember that we're only talking about 1 (more) Apple model
- no one was surprised when the Air left off FW & direct GigE because that was done to save weight/size.
Thus I don't think you can put that model in the equation.
The MacBook is arguably one of Apple's hottest selling models. If Apple doesn't care to put Firewire in it, I think that says something about their plans.
Quote:
Anyway I'd be interested to know what devices you have - and what you plan to replace them with...
I have a mini-DV camera with Firewire I don't use much anymore so it's no big deal. I have three Firewire bus-powered 2.5" drive enclosures and three Firewire desktop 3.5" drive enclosures. One of the desktop models also has a USB 2 port so I'm good there. Since my current Macs have Firewire, I'm OK for now but I'll be phasing out the Firewire boxes one by one. I don't intend to buy any new Firewire products. It would be foolish to do so unless Apple makes a statement about their plans to continue support for the technology. It's doubtful anything but the pro Macs will retain Firewire past next year. Hopefully any new drive enclosures I need in the future will have USB 3. It's the future, man.
Comments
"Revolutionary" strikes me as a stretch. I'd describe it as "a major evolution", "important" and "useful".
I feel as though it's revolutionary, because it's the first time anyone has ever made a manufacturing "just in time" case for a computer.
normally, just in time means that parts are ordered in a stream to just keep up with the manufacturing process.
This is very different. They can make just the number of cases they need, and time it much closer than they could with all the other parts, possibly being made in different factories by other companies. That's very difficult to coordinate. No one else is doing this for computers.
The same thing for just in time design. no one else is doing that either. Apple can go from design to prototype to cutting chips in a few days, if they want.
This can give them a major advantage over other companies, if they choose to work it that way.
Jobs' description of this indicated that it meant more to Apple than just the quality advantages. I think what I'm saying here indicates those other advantages.
I think that's revolutionary.
My Sony PMW-EX1 has HD/SDI as well as FireWire, but at $6500, it could only be considered a well-heeled PROsumer camera, not a typical family cam.
I absolutely agree with all your other points. When I went looking for a high-quality camcorder to buy, I ended up choosing the all-digital XDCAM Sony precisely because I could buy an enhanced quality HD camcorder (and not wear out heads and moving-part mechanisms) instead of buying a lower-quality DV tape-based cam for $2000 AND need a $4500 DV tape deck to safely transfer video to disc.
In the near future, solid-state media will likely replace video tape altogether, although currently there are numerous pros warning early adopters of digital file-based video that without master tapes, there is no acceptable long-term archival scenario for their work.
Out of curiosity, how do you deal with the media cost? What I'm seeing is $500 for 8GB and that seems excessive to me. The media spec claims a data rate of 800 Mbit/s, but most of the XDCAM formats record around 50Mbps. I suppose it's handy for retrieving the files at 16x real time.
Out of curiosity, how do you deal with the media cost? What I'm seeing is $500 for 8GB and that seems excessive to me. The media spec claims a data rate of 800 Mbit/s, but most of the XDCAM formats record around 50Mbps. I suppose it's handy for retrieving the files at 16x real time.
These are industrial quality modules. It's like buying an Anton Baur battery and charger. Commercial users are pretty immune to cost.
Besides, those prices are much lower than they were two years ago when the first Panasonic came out.
I feel as though it's revolutionary, because it's the first time anyone has ever made a manufacturing "just in time" case for a computer.
normally, just in time means that parts are ordered in a stream to just keep up with the manufacturing process.
This is very different. They can make just the number of cases they need, and time it much closer than they could with all the other parts, possibly being made in different factories by other companies. That's very difficult to coordinate. No one else is doing this for computers.
The same thing for just in time design. no one else is doing that either. Apple can go from design to prototype to cutting chips in a few days, if they want.
This can give them a major advantage over other companies, if they choose to work it that way.
Jobs' description of this indicated that it meant more to Apple than just the quality advantages. I think what I'm saying here indicates those other advantages.
I think that's revolutionary.
I agree this is pretty new and significant. How about "nearly revolutionary"?
But then, I'm the type for whom revolutionary would require a laptop (or handheld) with something like a fold-out display that expands to at least a 24" Cinema Display.
I agree this is pretty new and significant. How about "nearly revolutionary"?
But then, I'm the type for whom revolutionary would require a laptop (or handheld) with something like a fold-out display that expands to at least a 24" Cinema Display.
Even that, by your definition would be an evolution of current displays. This is basically, more promising.
But, whatever word we use, this opens up a lot of new possibilities.
Out of curiosity, how do you deal with the media cost? What I'm seeing is $500 for 8GB and that seems excessive to me. The media spec claims a data rate of 800 Mbit/s, but most of the XDCAM formats record around 50Mbps. I suppose it's handy for retrieving the files at 16x real time.
Unfortunately, micro-biz people like me are NOT immune to costs, as melgross posted. True, if you really need something, you have to buy it, but like computers, you better be damn sure you can cost-justify it because next year it may be obsolete.
The Sony EX1 cam came with an 8gb SxS card, which is an Express Card/34 form (video pros are adamant you cannot use cheaper media cards to record on because of write speed limitations). It also had a rebate for a free 8gb card, allowing me to fill both media slots in the camera.
An 8gb card provides about 25-30 minutes of "high quality" 1080-resolution HD video, or nearly an hour of "standard quality" 720-resolution HD video, so I can do up to an hour of 1080 video before needing to dump files. With an Express Card slot in my MBP, it's a matter of drag-and-drop copying to the hard disk, and it only takes a couple minutes to dump an entire card. A 2.5" hard drive in an OWC FireWire bus-powered case allows me to backup video files in case one hard drive fails. Once copied to hard drive, the video is ready to edit and use.
Since I have no $15/per hour tape cost (figured at DVCAM quality, although the XDCAM video is far better), after about 33 hours of shooting, an 8gb media card would be paid for if not already supplied at purchase. Because video digitizing is near instantaneous rather than the 1:1 process of tape (1 hr of video = 1 hour of digitizing to disk), I'm also saving at least 30 hrs of my time (and wear and tear on a deck or camera heads) for this 33-hr payoff comparison period.
My planned usage doesn't require all-day shoots requiring mass numbers of cards to keep going (although I can dump a card so fast it's amazing). Filmmakers would probably rent the camera and extra media cards; I think wedding shooters might get by with a couple pair of 16gb cards for a full wedding and reception, but YMMV.
Because my planned use of this camera involves going to some reasonably accessible but sometimes distant locations in the wilderness, a portable laptop that can read my Express Card media and attach a external HD for backup is somewhat crucial. Backpacking the camera and tripod alone is a chore; adding a 15" MBP to the load is a bitch. I still have to carry rain gear, water & snacks, and other outdoor necessaries as well, although I'm not camping out with it.
This explains my severe interest in a MacBook with reduced size and an Express Card slot. (Note: Sony makes a USB2 card reader that some people have said isn't terribly painful to dump cards with, so a new MacBook might suffice, although the extra cost of the adapter would begin to approach MBP pricing.) I could dump video to disk to reuse my media cards, pop in a FW800 adapter and back it up (maybe not if it didn't provide bus-power, but that's really a "base camp" issue at night in a hotel, hopefully with power), pop in another card reader adapter and dump large file format stills from my Nikon. I'm to the point of investigating the low-cost HP 2133 Mini-Note as a means to dump and carry video and files until I can get back to civilization and a Mac at the end of the day for actual usage.
Sorry to take the thread off-course.
EDIT: melgross, since you're far more knowledgeable than I, do you know if an Express Card FW adapter caries bus power out to a drive, or would external power be required? I haven't had to go beyond the needs of my one FW800 port on my MBP, so I have no experience. I always figured I'd use an eSATA port adapter for hooking big drives to it via Express Card anyway.
Unfortunately, micro-biz people like me are NOT immune to costs, as melgross posted. True, if you really need something, you have to buy it, but like computers, you better be damn sure you can cost-justify it because next year it may be obsolete.
The Sony EX1 cam came with an 8gb SxS card, which is an Express Card/34 form (video pros are adamant you cannot use cheaper media cards to record on because of write speed limitations). It also had a rebate for a free 8gb card, allowing me to fill both media slots in the camera.
An 8gb card provides about 25-30 minutes of "high quality" 1080-resolution HD video, or nearly an hour of "standard quality" 720-resolution HD video, so I can do up to an hour of wide-screen hi-res video before needing to dump files. With an Express Card slot in my MBP, it's a matter of drag-and-drop copying to the hard disk, and it only takes a couple minutes to dump an entire card. A 2.5" hard drive in an OWC FireWire bus-powered case allows me to backup video files in case one hard drive fails. Once copied to hard drive, the video is ready to edit and use.
Since I have no $15/per hour tape cost (figured at DVCAM quality), after about 33 hours of shooting, an 8gb media card would be paid for if not already suplied at purchase. Because video digitizing is near instantaneous rather than the 1:1 process of tape (1 hr of video = 1 hour of digitizing to disk), I'm also saving at least 30 hrs of my time (and wear and tear on a deck or camera heads) for this 33-hr payoff comparison period.
My planned usage doesn't require all-day shoots requiring mass numbers of cards to keep going (although I can dump a card so fast it's amazing). Filmmakers would probably rent the camera and extra media cards; wedding shooters might get by with a couple pair of 16gb cards for a full wedding and reception.
Because my planned use of this camera involves going to some reasonably accessible but sometimes distant locations in the wilderness, a portable laptop that can read my Express Card media and attach a external HD for backup is somewhat crucial. Backpacking the camera and tripod alone is a chore; adding a 15" MBP to the load is a bitch. I still have to carry rain gear, water & snacks, and other outdoor necessaries as well, although I'm not camping out with it.
This explains my severe interest in a MacBook with reduced size and an Express Card slot. I could dump video to disk to reuse my media cards, pop in a FW800 adapter and back it up (maybe not if it didn't provide bus-power, but that's really a "base camp" issue at night in a hotel, hopefully with power), pop in another card reader adapter and dump large file format stills from my Nikon. I'm to the point of investigating the low-cost HP 2133 Mini-Note as a means to dump and carry video and files until I can get back to civilization and a Mac at the end of the day for actual usage.
Sorry to take the thread off-course.
Yes, of course, I wasn't referring to users such as yourself. But the commercial users to whom these cameras are targeted to, don't care. A camera like this could be taken to a situation where it could be abandoned, because of their cost (when compared to expensive models in the $20,000 price range, and up, as many ENG models are), and the cartridges would be able to take much more abuse in the rushed trip back.
Also, of course, they are reusable, as you see. Over time, the cost is, to some extent, recovered. The higher reliability of the cameras resulting from these "packs", and the longer run-time from the batteries make them well worth it, if that is needed.
Otherwise, right now, for most shooters under less conditions of stress ( and lower budgets), there are other cameras that would provide a better performance/cost ratio when several packs of these are added to the cost as compared to tape.
But remember that in commercial use, ENG tapes are rarely re-used. The tape is filed away, and a new one is issued. So over the long run, tape is expensive as well.
It's like the old iPhone for $600, and the new one at half the cost. One you pay for upfront, and the other you pay for over a period of time. Take your choice as to which is better.
Also, of course, they are reusable, as you see. Over time, the cost is, to some extent, recovered. The higher reliability of the cameras resulting from these "packs", and the longer run-time from the batteries make them well worth it, if that is needed.
Otherwise, right now, for most shooters under less conditions of stress ( and lower budgets), there are other cameras that would provide a better performance/cost ratio when several packs of these are added to the cost as compared to tape.
But remember that in commercial use, ENG tapes are rarely re-used. The tape is filed away, and a new one is issued. So over the long run, tape is expensive as well.
Yep the pro video world is fairly quickly moving away from tape. These prosumer cameras generally only have two card slots. While Panasonic's full professional ENG P2 camera has five card slots. With five 16GB cards the cameras can record 100 minutes of 1080P footage.
One major advantage of file based storage is it eliminates digitizing tape in real time. Moving a digital file is many times faster. Speed is important and the commercial world is willing to pay for it.
Yep the pro video world is fairly quickly moving away from tape. These prosumer cameras generally only have two card slots. While Panasonic's full professional ENG P2 camera has five card slots. With five 16GB cards the cameras can record 100 minutes of 1080P footage.
One major advantage of file based storage is it eliminates digitizing tape in real time. Moving a digital file is many times faster. Speed is important and the commercial world is willing to pay for it.
I think it's still a matter of picking your poison. You get away from potentially unreliable tape mechanisms and such, but to archive it, you're relying on potentially unreliable hard drive mechanisms that may or may not be able to power up of you let it sit for a couple years. Tapes often do last 20 years, I don't know if that can be said of hard drives.
Early in the Afghanistan war, networks (CNN, NBC notably) were equipping reporters with small Panny and Sony DV cams and MacBooks to do their coverage in iMovie and then upload it by satellite link. If a computer is gonna eventually get trashed in harsh conditions, the cheapest one that does the job saves money in the long run.
Except that Toughbooks really DO last a bit longer than their non-ruggedized counterparts. They don't run iMovie though.
What do you think of the Canon 5D Mk II to reduce weight? If you can work within its constraints, Laforet's short shows it can do some amazing things with such little light. It may be a "cologne commercial" as he describes it but it sure is a pretty one from a DSLR.
http://www.vincentlaforet.com/
If you are going to make a leap forward by removing old technology, surely it makes sense to provide a replacement.
let's not forget that Apple dropped FW 800 from the the first two 2006 15" MacBook Pro models (after having it on 4 previous 15" PowerBook models) - then brought it back on the 15" MacBook Pro in Oct '06 in a somewhat sleazy marketing maneuver... i suspect they'll do away with FW 400 for good but bring back a FW 800 port on the MacBooks once FW 3200 comes out - they'd be utterly insane not to...
No. A thousand times no.
You don't throttle a bus speed and use it as a marketing upsell. Apple's not some cheesy internet provider.
Apple's boneheaded removal of Firewire from the MacBook has already damaged its own standard and segmenting the market isn't going to help. All Apple products should include the 3200 spec as soon as is possible.
That's the only way peripheral makers will take the move to 3200 seriously.
That's the only way peripheral makers will take the move to 3200 seriously.
I doubt that any ever will, now.
In my mind, Apple just killed Firewire dead. Nobody will trust them to support it anymore. I expect it will be completely eliminated from all Macs within a year, so I'll personally never buy a Firewire device again. (I currently own a half dozen but they're headed for eBay soon.) USB is it from now on.
Except that Toughbooks really DO last a bit longer than their non-ruggedized counterparts. They don't run iMovie though.
What do you think of the Canon 5D Mk II to reduce weight? If you can work within its constraints, Laforet's short shows it can do some amazing things with such little light. It may be a "cologne commercial" as he describes it but it sure is a pretty one from a DSLR.
http://www.vincentlaforet.com/
I think there are suitable alternatives to iMovie on the PC side now...
If a DSLR can use a HD "back" for long capture and use the high-quality glass typical in still camera line-ups to achieve great depth of field, I think it will revolutionize video.
Oh wait, I forgot we're not supposed to use that word...
Can you imagine what you'd get with a Hassy or even a Bronica using this kind of technology? Unfortunately, we'll likely be stuck using a USB cable to download files...
Yep the pro video world is fairly quickly moving away from tape. These prosumer cameras generally only have two card slots. While Panasonic's full professional ENG P2 camera has five card slots. With five 16GB cards the cameras can record 100 minutes of 1080P footage.
One major advantage of file based storage is it eliminates digitizing tape in real time. Moving a digital file is many times faster. Speed is important and the commercial world is willing to pay for it.
People don't see the big bucks involved. A news program can cost a hundred thousand to produce, if it is network. The extra money for tape, or some solid state storage is nothing.
The world is now digital, and the first to go for digital cameras were the newspapers, the wire services, and the magazines. Time is money, and a scoop can be worth millions.
I think it's still a matter of picking your poison. You get away from potentially unreliable tape mechanisms and such, but to archive it, you're relying on potentially unreliable hard drive mechanisms that may or may not be able to power up of you let it sit for a couple years. Tapes often do last 20 years, I don't know if that can be said of hard drives.
It can be, and now sometimes is, archived on archival BD disks. That's plenty of storage room. The archival versions cost almost $30 per disk in single quantity right now, about what the first archival CD's and DVD's cost.
I doubt that any ever will, now.
In my mind, Apple just killed Firewire dead. Nobody will trust them to support it anymore. I expect it will be completely eliminated from all Macs within a year, so I'll personally never buy a Firewire device again. (I currently own a half dozen but they're headed for eBay soon.) USB is it from now on.
I certainly hope FW isn't dead and there's been quite the opposite reaction from some peripheral makers and in some industries
- since there isn't a direct replacement yet for FW
(and no one can tell me what that replacement technology is / will be for p2p hot swap networking with decent power transmission).
Remember that we're only talking about 1 (more) Apple model
- no one was surprised when the Air left off FW & direct GigE because that was done to save weight/size.
Thus I don't think you can put that model in the equation. So the only other model to use to generate a 'trend' is the ipod
which is a completely different unit - and the change happened years ago.
Anyway I'd be interested to know what devices you have - and what you plan to replace them with...
If it's just HDDs then you should be fine - you can hope for ESATA or just waste a litte more time with USB2
...but if those devices have/need any degree of stand-alone function or intelligence then there aren't too many options.
As a slight side point - what do you folks think about the idea that Lockheed Martin
recently chose to put the FW standard (no idea what actual connectors or speed used) in their new
F22 Raptor and F35 Lightning II planes? (look under avionics & design resp.)
Development programs of 62 billion USD and unit cost of 140 million USD (for the F22 alone) so paying to develop a future/expensive/pending technology obviously wasn't an issue...
Remembering that these fighter jets are the pinnacle of US technology (for the F22 and the F35 is international)
and typically have a lifetime of 20+ years.
That says a lot about how at least one segment of modern international industry sees the IEEE-1394 standard
- in their opinion (at least) FW is far from dead.
I certainly hope FW isn't dead and there's been quite the opposite reaction from some peripheral makers and in some industries
- since there isn't a direct replacement yet for FW
(and no one can tell me what that replacement technology is / will be for p2p hot swap networking with decent power transmission).
Remember that we're only talking about 1 (more) Apple model
- no one was surprised when the Air left off FW & direct GigE because that was done to save weight/size.
Thus I don't think you can put that model in the equation. So the only other model to use to generate a 'trend' is the ipod
which is a completely different unit - and the change happened years ago.
Anyway I'd be interested to know what devices you have - and what you plan to replace them with...
If it's just HDDs then you should be fine - you can hope for ESATA or just waste a litte more time with USB2
...but if those devices have/need any degree of stand-alone function or intelligence then there aren't too many options.
As a slight side point - what do you folks think about the idea that Lockheed Martin
recently chose to put the FW standard (no idea what actual connectors or speed used) in their new
F22 Raptor and F35 Lightning II planes? (look under avionics & design resp.)
Development programs of 62 billion USD and unit cost of 140 million USD (for the F22 alone) so paying to develop a future/expensive/pending technology obviously wasn't an issue...
Remembering that these fighter jets are the pinnacle of US technology (for the F22 and the F35 is international)
and typically have a lifetime of 20+ years.
That says a lot about how at least one segment of modern international industry sees the IEEE-1394 standard
- in their opinion (at least) FW is far from dead.
The military has been using more commercial technologies for years. They've been ordered to do so to, yes, save money. How many tens of (or more likely, hundreds of) millions would it cost to develop a new technology that would accomplish, what?
But this has no relation to what happens in the rest of the tech world.
Remember that we're only talking about 1 (more) Apple model
- no one was surprised when the Air left off FW & direct GigE because that was done to save weight/size.
Thus I don't think you can put that model in the equation.
The MacBook is arguably one of Apple's hottest selling models. If Apple doesn't care to put Firewire in it, I think that says something about their plans.
Anyway I'd be interested to know what devices you have - and what you plan to replace them with...
I have a mini-DV camera with Firewire I don't use much anymore so it's no big deal. I have three Firewire bus-powered 2.5" drive enclosures and three Firewire desktop 3.5" drive enclosures. One of the desktop models also has a USB 2 port so I'm good there. Since my current Macs have Firewire, I'm OK for now but I'll be phasing out the Firewire boxes one by one. I don't intend to buy any new Firewire products. It would be foolish to do so unless Apple makes a statement about their plans to continue support for the technology. It's doubtful anything but the pro Macs will retain Firewire past next year. Hopefully any new drive enclosures I need in the future will have USB 3. It's the future, man.