As a gay man, I have never felt more unwelcome on this board than after reading 9 pages just dripping with hate and bile from so many good "Christians."
I'm just as moral, just as ethical as this "frugal" person who chooses to judge me and hate me from afar. I pay my taxes, I go to church, I serve my community, I vote in every election. I am no different from any other informed or active citizen. I am also gay.
I didn't choose to be gay, and I've known I was gay since I hit puberty at 12 years old. If I could magically not be gay, I wouldn't choose that, either, as that would be altering a core, unchosen part of what makes me who I am.
Frugal, Reich and the other hatemongers here don't know me. They don't know anything about people like me. They've taken me and everyone like me, lumped us together as a big, evil "other," and pretend all gays have some sort of common "Agenda."
I'm glad Apple values me, not only as a customer, but as a human being. I just ordered a MacBook Pro. That's 2% of their donation now paid for.
Frugal, Reich, et al -- irony is the universe's favorite device for turning the hateful back upon themselves. Remember the hateful things you've said here the day one of your children, one of your friends, or someone you care about tells you they're gay. It's one thing to say them about me and anonymous people like me; it's another to say it to someone close to you's face.
We are all free to define and cultivate marriage as we choose. Religions are likewise free. And we do define marriage differently. I do not seriously protest your right to define marriage as between a man and a woman. I believe differently, and my church believes differently. We celebrated same-sex marriages long before the Supreme Court decision. You (and your church if you are part of one) and me and my church can disagree. Prop. 8 is about legal, state rights, about what the state recognizes in issues of property ownership, child custody, applying for loans, and much more.
In states where there are no so-called "civil unions" and where same-sex couples do not receive every legal protection, I agree and demand that they should receive those rights. However, in California, Proposition 8 does not take away any rights from gay and lesbian domestic partners. Gays and lesbians in California can already enjoy all the legal rights and benefits of marriage. The California Family Code says, “domestic partners shall have all the rights, protections and benefits” of married spouses. There are NO exceptions to this. Proposition 8 will not change that.
My understanding and perspective is that this redefining marriage ultimately effect the community in the previously listed issues such as education, adoption, private institutions receiving government funding, etc.
I agree with both Joe Biden and Sarah Palin who spoke for themselves and their respective running mates that they support the traditional definition of marriage (in the recent VP debate).
(I hate saying that I agree with Sarah Palin... it makes me cringe)
As a gay man, I have never felt more unwelcome on this board than after reading 9 pages just dripping with hate and bile from so many good "Christians."
I'm just as moral, just as ethical as this "frugal" person who chooses to judge me and hate me from afar. I pay my taxes, I go to church, I serve my community, I vote in every election. I am no different from any other informed or active citizen. I am also gay.
I didn't choose to be gay, and I've known I was gay since I hit puberty at 12 years old. If I could magically not be gay, I wouldn't choose that, either, as that would be altering a core, unchosen part of what makes me who I am.
Frugal, Reich and the other hatemongers here don't know me. They don't know anything about people like me. They've taken me and everyone like me, lumped us together as a big, evil "other," and pretend all gays have some sort of common "Agenda."
I'm glad Apple values me, not only as a customer, but as a human being. I just ordered a MacBook Pro. That's 2% of their donation now paid for.
Frugal, Reich, et al -- irony is the universe's favorite device for turning the hateful back upon themselves. Remember the hateful things you've said here the day one of your children, one of your friends, or someone you care about tells you they're gay. It's one thing to say them about me and anonymous people like me; it's another to say it to someone close to you's face.
These people have absolutely no idea but I agree, it is disheartening. I have a friend with a five year old boy who is so obviously gay (he knows something but I doubt he realizes what it is). How anybody can say you have a choice as to what you are is beyond me. Undoubtedly when these people start having sex they will realize there are some things that turn them on more than others, who the hell knows why. You may make a decision to experiment in order to discover, but your discovery will be exactly that, a discovery, not a choice.
Jesus did go out of his way to be with the most broken of God's people -- even prostitutes. But he didn't condone their behavior and didn't change the rules to allow people's pet sins to be considered "O.K."
Marriage is a right, but it's right for one man and one woman, that's all.
As a gay man, I have never felt more unwelcome on this board than after reading 9 pages just dripping with hate and bile from so many good "Christians."
Thank you for your post. I admit it is difficult to stand up for Prop 8 when I look at much of the company I stand with. Shame on them.
I find it possible to both support Prop 8 and also same-sex civil unions and the entailed legal rights and protections. I am only in favor of maintaining the traditional definition of "marriage."
I agree with both Joe Biden and Sarah Palin who spoke for themselves and their respective running mates that they support the traditional definition of marriage (in the recent VP debate).
(I hate saying that I agree with Sarah Palin... it makes me cringe)
Both Biden and Palin have a religious bias that dictates their viewpoints. Biden is a strict Catholic and Palin a Charismatic Fundamentalist Christian. Both are entitled to their views, but those views should never be made policy of the government.
So when I buy Apple products I am supporting a business that is actively campaigning to change the traditional definition of marriage?
I have personally bought 5 Apple computers and 6 iPods (not to mention dozens of accessories) in the past 5 years. I am also the pastor of a large church, which has, under my leadership bought dozens more Apple computers. In addition, many people in our church have "gone Mac" due to our experience.
The choice to NOT be neutral regarding cultural issues about which many Apple customers have deeply-held and thoughtful opinions may force many to NOT support Apple with our purchases. As a committed Apple user, I sincerely hope Apple changes the decision and withdraws the donation. Please do not force people to go back to PCs because of our consciences.
Whether or not to offer equal rights and benefits to employees? same-sex partners is a call for any company to make. But to use a company's money to engage in politics (it IS political!) and seek to influence people with company money is crossing a line. This is not a civil rights issue, for some it is a morality and/or cultural issue. With all my heart, I ask Apple to remain neutral in this.
Are the shareholders aware of the financial harm that could result? Just look at this thread. It's not a wise decision for Apple to engage in something so divisive. Not good.
So when I buy Apple products I am supporting a business that is actively campaigning to change the traditional definition of marriage?
I have personally bought 5 Apple computers and 6 iPods (not to mention dozens of accessories) in the past 5 years. I am also the pastor of a large church, which has, under my leadership bought dozens more Apple computers. In addition, many people in our church have "gone Mac" due to our experience.
The choice to NOT be neutral regarding cultural issues about which many Apple customers have deeply-held and thoughtful opinions may force many to NOT support Apple with our purchases. As a committed Apple user, I sincerely hope Apple changes the decision and withdraws the donation. Please do not force people to go back to PCs because of our consciences.
Whether or not to offer equal rights and benefits to employees? same-sex partners is a call for any company to make. But to use a company's money to engage in politics (it IS political!) and seek to influence people with company money is crossing a line. This is not a civil rights issue, for some it is a morality and/or cultural issue. With all my heart, I ask Apple to remain neutral in this.
Are the shareholders aware of the financial harm that could result? Just look at this thread. It's not a wise decision for Apple to engage in something so divisive. Not good.
Aaargh, I wonder why Apple would do such a thing? If Apple stay quiet no one would care (religious or non-religious), now since they made a public declaration, anti-gay people will start criticizing apple and such for supporting gay marriage. Not to mention about other effects that might happen.
I don't care bout gay marriage but I say its wrong. Just my personal op.
So when I buy Apple products I am supporting a business that is actively campaigning to change the traditional definition of marriage?
I have personally bought 5 Apple computers and 6 iPods (not to mention dozens of accessories) in the past 5 years. I am also the pastor of a large church, which has, under my leadership bought dozens more Apple computers. In addition, many people in our church have "gone Mac" due to our experience.
The choice to NOT be neutral regarding cultural issues about which many Apple customers have deeply-held and thoughtful opinions may force many to NOT support Apple with our purchases. As a committed Apple user, I sincerely hope Apple changes the decision and withdraws the donation. Please do not force people to go back to PCs because of our consciences.
Whether or not to offer equal rights and benefits to employees’ same-sex partners is a call for any company to make. But to use a company's money to engage in politics (it IS political!) and seek to influence people with company money is crossing a line. This is not a civil rights issue, for some it is a morality and/or cultural issue. With all my heart, I ask Apple to remain neutral in this.
Are the shareholders aware of the financial harm that could result? Just look at this thread. It's not a wise decision for Apple to engage in something so divisive. Not good.
I'm in charge of a high school's IT management & purchase. I've been trying to switch our main platform to Mac for years, now I have more reason to do so for I not only like Apple as a innovative tech company, but a respectful social issue participant.
Even if I can't migrate our database & server to Xservers running OS X over night, I will make sure every new notebook issued this year, the new MacBook Pro will be an option, and I bet a lot of my fellow teachers will take it in a heart beat.
Prop 8 offend me in a worst way, I'm hetero and not a USA citizen.
If this prop ever get passed, the american spirit will be a little more dead.
This country would probably be better off without you! Please leave, do something to get INS to kick you out. I hope your visa or whatever is allowing you to stay here is revoked! This country needs less like you!
This country would probably be better off without you! Please leave, do something to get INS to kick you out. I hope your visa or whatever is allowing you to stay here is revoked! This country needs less like you!
Stop stereotyping yourself already.
Good thing you don't have a say about my VISA as long as you're not some NSA agent who can mark me as a "Terrorist" for supporting gay rights, or maybe "Arab"?
So when I buy Apple products I am supporting a business that is actively campaigning to change the traditional definition of marriage?
The definition of marriage was altered as soon as it became a legal contract. All this is doing is giving same sex couples the right to have that same legal contract. This does affect any religious definitions of marriage, for which there are many. It also doesn't force, request, or regulate how religions must deal with same sex marriages. This is only about the legal aspect of the union between two people who are devoting their lives to each other.
Did this legal contract originally stem from the religious marriage? Sure! But the term has changed and have been altered. It's The word marriage is now a polyseme, meaning that it has related but distinct meanings. The religious one for whatever religion you choose to follow and the legal one.
A Catholic can get married and divorced many times by law, but the church will only recognize the first. They are not required to perform the other ceremonies just as they will not required to perform any gay ceremonies.
I think the naming is really what is throwing people off on this civil liberty. Do you have any ideas on what to call it? A Fudge Pact? (I'm just kidding!) Seriously, if we are going to change the name, the name for the legal union and the union under God have to be different.
Quote:
Whether or not to offer equal rights and benefits to employees? same-sex partners is a call for any company to make. But to use a company's money to engage in politics (it IS political!) and seek to influence people with company money is crossing a line. This is not a civil rights issue, for some it is a morality and/or cultural issue. With all my heart, I ask Apple to remain neutral in this.
All civil rights issues are political, but there is no mistaken that this is political. It wasn't long ago that it was considered immoral for interracial couples to marry. Are you disgusted by that? If not, I bet you know or knew people that are/were by the very idea, but I find it hard to think of anyone that would publicly say that it's an affront to God in this day and age. It's not any different. There is plenty of evidence to support the feelings you are expressing here. I don't mean to come off as hostile. From your postings you seem very decent, but I do think your definition and feelings are an emotional response to a learned attitude, one that I hope does change over time.
As for the money, Apple, Google et al. donate money to many organizations. These are a tax right off and are part of any healthy business. The only reason we know about this one is the current controversy surrounding it.
Lots of replies already and lots of emotion. Obviously this topic strikes a nerve. I would think a company of Apple's size would do best to shy away from this controversy. Not good for business at all.
That being said, I am amazed how many people do not understand why we have marriage in the first place. While there are minor reasons, the main reason, the big elephant in the room, is children. Marriage is important because a man and woman can make babies. Since they make them, they own them. This is their privilege and their responsibility.
The reason why gay marriage doesn't make sense is they cannot produce babies. There are many other reasons but this is the big one. Nobody talks about this elephant in the room. They will debate the small reasons and overlook this main one.
The reason for this is probably because this issue is not just about gay marriage but also divorce and sex outside marriage. Since so many in our country are guilty of these things, nobody wants to bring them up.
It is in the state's best interest to protect its future generations. The state need to know who is married to whom and which children belong to which parents. It should do things to help protect its greatest natural reasource. Special treatment for married couples is the result.
Our court system is in shambles because we allow people to mess up their lives with adultery and easy divorce. Millions of children suffer. Everybody else suffers indirectly too. Everybody knows our country is way out of line on this issue.
Until we get back to this base for marriage, we will never solve the gay marriage debate. We also need to fix all the other marriage/divorce issues too. With half of our adults in the US with some form of VD, we need to wake up and see the moral codes of old were not there just to deny us some fun. They were there for health reasons and the sake of our children.
For Apple or any other large corporation to get involved with this controversial issue shows their foolishness. It is a very bad business decision. If someone wants to support one side or the other, they should do so out of their private money, not a corporation's money. This is not just for Apple, but also for all other corporations.
I would think Apple users would also understand the argument of how important it is to look at this issue as a whole. Just as Apple tries to create a good complete solution by integrating hardware, software, and services, so too should we view marriage as one important piece of a much larger civilization solution.
Most people approach the marriage issue like a PC user - they grab at one issue and have no idea how it fits into the whole. Thus they hack together a society and wonder why it has bugs and crashes frequently. They then look at the five to ten percent of people who have a system that works and declare them some cult of fanatics, or something like that.
Now no person is perfect just like no computer, operating system, or application is perfect. But just like we Mac users know how much better working on a Mac is over Windows, so too people who follow the main moral code know their experience is so much better. We follow a system that is of superior design.
While someone might scoff at the phrase " the main moral code", everybody knows basically what it is and that we should follow it. We all have this inner gut feeling when we do the wrong thing. We just want to make one exception for ourself.
Of course most people do this and we end up with a society that has standardized on an inferior moral platform. Everybody then goes along with this view just because it is the most popular. Then all these issues become like apps where one doesn't play nice with others. They fight for system resources and the whole system crashes. Every app blames the other app and nobody ever realizes the whole platform is at fault.
One should throw out their faulty Windows moral foundation and switch to one that is "Mac-like". Then problems like the gay marriage issue disappear. I know this whole analogy goes against popular opinion that most Mac users are liberals, but many of us are not. Regardless, I firmly think the analogy still stands.
Unfortunately there are many people who claim to follow some religious or moral code and they introduce their own distorted faulty system. Of such systems there are many. But I am not talking about those burdensome ones when I refer to this main moral code. The good trees produce good apples. The bad trees have fruit filled with bugs. That is how we can separate the good ideas from the bad ideas. After all, that is how we can tell the good computer systems from the bad systems.
Sorry I'm not religious. But I do recognize that things are either right or wrong.
Its so bad, bacause its wrong. Just like pedophilia is wrong. Just like stabbing random old ladies is wrong. Just like touching your sister is wrong. Its just plain wrong.
Why would I be scared they would make me gay? That is the stupidest thing I ever heard. Would I be scared of becoming a pedophile if pedophilia was legalized or becoming a crackhead if crack was legalized? Seriously thats the stupidest shi I ever heard and makes negative 2 ounces of sense.
Man do you have it wrong. Is being Gay just as wrong as being Black was in the 60s or being a Woman in the 80s. All these arguments, religious and not, are the same ones used against Black and Women's rights, just tweaked a little differently for this situation. Change is coming...GET USED TO IT!
Lots of replays already and lots of emotion. Obviously this topic strikes a nerve. I would think a company of Apple's size would do best to shy away from this controversy. Not good for business at all.
You have to figure how many people will respect Apple more now for this and consider their elitist, liberal clientelle, then minus the people won't now buy an Apple product are probably not Apple's key demographic anyway and then minus the people that aren't going to care one way or another how Apple feels about these civil liberties.
Have the anti-gay groups stopped buying newspapers and stopped using Google as their search engine because of this?
PS: This might all be a ruse to turn people away from the lack of FW on the new MacBook.
Prop no 8 is about ammending state law to disallow certain federal rights. Isn't it?
Or what is this thread about do you think?
The right to marry is a civil right. Just like free speech or the freedom of the press. When the CA supreme court said that the gay marriage ban was unconstitutional they said churches could believe what ever they wanted. From a LEGAL stand point marriage is going to be between two people. Religions can still believe what they want and practice how they will. People have already tried sueing the Catholics for not letting woman be priests, didn't work. SO for ALL OF YOU RELIGIOUS NUTS OUT THERE....CALM DOWN!! Homosexuals and heterosexuals a like won't be able to sue you little b.s. church. Churches like businesses have the right to refuse service to anyone. As long as they don't kick them out for sexual orientation then they CANNOT get sued.
Lots of replays already and lots of emotion. Obviously this topic strikes a nerve. I would think a company of Apple's size would do best to shy away from this controversy. Not good for business at all.
That being said, I am amazed how many people do not understand why we have marriage in the first place. While there are minor reasons, the main reason, the big elephant in the room, is children. Marriage is important because a man and woman can make babies. Since they make them, they own them. This is their privilege and their responsibility.
The reason why gay marriage doesn't make sense is they cannot produce babies. There are many other reasons but this is the big one. Nobody talks about this elephant in the room. They will debate the small reasons and overlook this main one.
The reason for this is probably because this issue is not just about gay marriage but also divorce and sex outside marriage. Since so many in our country are guilty of these things, nobody wants to bring them up.
It is in the state's best interest to protect its future generations. The state need to know who is married to whom and which children belong to which parents. It should do things to help protect its greatest natural reasource. Special treatment for married couples is the result.
Our court system is in shambles because we allow people to mess up their lives with adultery and easy divorce. Millions of children suffer. Everybody else suffers indirectly too. Everybody knows our country is way out of line on this issue.
Until we get back to this base for marriage, we will never solve the gay marriage debate. We also need to fix all the other marriage/divorce issues too. With half of our adults in the US with some form of VD, we need to wake up and see the moral codes of old were not there just to deny us some fun. They were there for health reasons and the sake of our children.
For Apple or any other large corporation to get involved with this controversial issue shows their foolishness. It is a very bad business decision. If someone wants to support one side or the other, they should do so out of their private money, not a corporation's money. This is not just for Apple, but also for all other corporations.
I would think Apple users would also understand the argument of how important it is to look at this issue as a whole. Just as Apple tries to create a good complete solution by integrating hardware, software, and services, so too should we view marriage as one important piece of a much larger civilization solution.
Most people approach the marriage issue like a PC user - they grab at one issue and have no idea how it fits into the whole. Thus they hack together a society and wonder why it has bugs and crashes frequently. They then look at the five to ten percent of people who have a system that works and declare them some cult of fanatics, or something like that.
Now no person is perfect just like no computer, operating system, or application is perfect. But just like we Mac users know how much better working on a Mac is over Windows, so too people who follow the main moral code know their experience is so much better. We follow a system that is of superior design.
While someone might scoff at the phrase " the main moral code", everybody knows basically what it is and that we should follow it. We all have this inner gut feeling when we do the wrong thing. We just want to make one exception for ourself.
Of course most people do this and we end up with a society that has standardized on an inferior moral platform. Everybody then goes along with this view just because it is the most popular. Then all these issues become like apps where one doesn't play nice with others. They fight for system resources and the whole system crashes. Every app blames the other app and nobody ever realizes the whole platform is at fault.
One should throw out their faulty Windows moral foundation and switch to one that is "Mac-like". Then problems like the gay marriage issue disappear. I know this whole analogy goes against popular opinion that most Mac users are liberals, but many of us are not. Regardless, I firmly think the analogy still stands.
Unfortunately there are many people who claim to follow some religious or moral code and they introduce their own distorted faulty system. Of such systems there are many. But I am not talking about those burdensome ones when I refer to this main moral code. The good trees produce good apples. The bad trees have fruit filled with bugs. That is how we can separate the good ideas from the bad ideas. After all, that is how we can tell the good computer systems from the bad systems.
oh please. like Apple, Google, or any other company is going to go under for supporting one proposition. Our society is too ignorant and I bet half the people walking around this country won't even know that Apple has donated to this cause. Honestly if there was no religions the world would be a much better case. Tell me about any major world issue in the last 2000 years where religion has not played a significant role in its happening!!
Comments
I'm just as moral, just as ethical as this "frugal" person who chooses to judge me and hate me from afar. I pay my taxes, I go to church, I serve my community, I vote in every election. I am no different from any other informed or active citizen. I am also gay.
I didn't choose to be gay, and I've known I was gay since I hit puberty at 12 years old. If I could magically not be gay, I wouldn't choose that, either, as that would be altering a core, unchosen part of what makes me who I am.
Frugal, Reich and the other hatemongers here don't know me. They don't know anything about people like me. They've taken me and everyone like me, lumped us together as a big, evil "other," and pretend all gays have some sort of common "Agenda."
I'm glad Apple values me, not only as a customer, but as a human being. I just ordered a MacBook Pro. That's 2% of their donation now paid for.
Frugal, Reich, et al -- irony is the universe's favorite device for turning the hateful back upon themselves. Remember the hateful things you've said here the day one of your children, one of your friends, or someone you care about tells you they're gay. It's one thing to say them about me and anonymous people like me; it's another to say it to someone close to you's face.
By his definition, he would not go to a party unless his goal was to impregnate someone or get impregnated (depending on his/her gender).
You crack me up!
We are all free to define and cultivate marriage as we choose. Religions are likewise free. And we do define marriage differently. I do not seriously protest your right to define marriage as between a man and a woman. I believe differently, and my church believes differently. We celebrated same-sex marriages long before the Supreme Court decision. You (and your church if you are part of one) and me and my church can disagree. Prop. 8 is about legal, state rights, about what the state recognizes in issues of property ownership, child custody, applying for loans, and much more.
In states where there are no so-called "civil unions" and where same-sex couples do not receive every legal protection, I agree and demand that they should receive those rights. However, in California, Proposition 8 does not take away any rights from gay and lesbian domestic partners. Gays and lesbians in California can already enjoy all the legal rights and benefits of marriage. The California Family Code says, “domestic partners shall have all the rights, protections and benefits” of married spouses. There are NO exceptions to this. Proposition 8 will not change that.
My understanding and perspective is that this redefining marriage ultimately effect the community in the previously listed issues such as education, adoption, private institutions receiving government funding, etc.
I agree with both Joe Biden and Sarah Palin who spoke for themselves and their respective running mates that they support the traditional definition of marriage (in the recent VP debate).
(I hate saying that I agree with Sarah Palin... it makes me cringe)
As a gay man, I have never felt more unwelcome on this board than after reading 9 pages just dripping with hate and bile from so many good "Christians."
I'm just as moral, just as ethical as this "frugal" person who chooses to judge me and hate me from afar. I pay my taxes, I go to church, I serve my community, I vote in every election. I am no different from any other informed or active citizen. I am also gay.
I didn't choose to be gay, and I've known I was gay since I hit puberty at 12 years old. If I could magically not be gay, I wouldn't choose that, either, as that would be altering a core, unchosen part of what makes me who I am.
Frugal, Reich and the other hatemongers here don't know me. They don't know anything about people like me. They've taken me and everyone like me, lumped us together as a big, evil "other," and pretend all gays have some sort of common "Agenda."
I'm glad Apple values me, not only as a customer, but as a human being. I just ordered a MacBook Pro. That's 2% of their donation now paid for.
Frugal, Reich, et al -- irony is the universe's favorite device for turning the hateful back upon themselves. Remember the hateful things you've said here the day one of your children, one of your friends, or someone you care about tells you they're gay. It's one thing to say them about me and anonymous people like me; it's another to say it to someone close to you's face.
These people have absolutely no idea but I agree, it is disheartening. I have a friend with a five year old boy who is so obviously gay (he knows something but I doubt he realizes what it is). How anybody can say you have a choice as to what you are is beyond me. Undoubtedly when these people start having sex they will realize there are some things that turn them on more than others, who the hell knows why. You may make a decision to experiment in order to discover, but your discovery will be exactly that, a discovery, not a choice.
Jesus did go out of his way to be with the most broken of God's people -- even prostitutes. But he didn't condone their behavior and didn't change the rules to allow people's pet sins to be considered "O.K."
Marriage is a right, but it's right for one man and one woman, that's all.
Funny, I don't remember Jesus saying that either.
As a gay man, I have never felt more unwelcome on this board than after reading 9 pages just dripping with hate and bile from so many good "Christians."
Thank you for your post. I admit it is difficult to stand up for Prop 8 when I look at much of the company I stand with. Shame on them.
I find it possible to both support Prop 8 and also same-sex civil unions and the entailed legal rights and protections. I am only in favor of maintaining the traditional definition of "marriage."
I agree with both Joe Biden and Sarah Palin who spoke for themselves and their respective running mates that they support the traditional definition of marriage (in the recent VP debate).
(I hate saying that I agree with Sarah Palin... it makes me cringe)
Both Biden and Palin have a religious bias that dictates their viewpoints. Biden is a strict Catholic and Palin a Charismatic Fundamentalist Christian. Both are entitled to their views, but those views should never be made policy of the government.
I have personally bought 5 Apple computers and 6 iPods (not to mention dozens of accessories) in the past 5 years. I am also the pastor of a large church, which has, under my leadership bought dozens more Apple computers. In addition, many people in our church have "gone Mac" due to our experience.
The choice to NOT be neutral regarding cultural issues about which many Apple customers have deeply-held and thoughtful opinions may force many to NOT support Apple with our purchases. As a committed Apple user, I sincerely hope Apple changes the decision and withdraws the donation. Please do not force people to go back to PCs because of our consciences.
Whether or not to offer equal rights and benefits to employees? same-sex partners is a call for any company to make. But to use a company's money to engage in politics (it IS political!) and seek to influence people with company money is crossing a line. This is not a civil rights issue, for some it is a morality and/or cultural issue. With all my heart, I ask Apple to remain neutral in this.
Are the shareholders aware of the financial harm that could result? Just look at this thread. It's not a wise decision for Apple to engage in something so divisive. Not good.
So when I buy Apple products I am supporting a business that is actively campaigning to change the traditional definition of marriage?
I have personally bought 5 Apple computers and 6 iPods (not to mention dozens of accessories) in the past 5 years. I am also the pastor of a large church, which has, under my leadership bought dozens more Apple computers. In addition, many people in our church have "gone Mac" due to our experience.
The choice to NOT be neutral regarding cultural issues about which many Apple customers have deeply-held and thoughtful opinions may force many to NOT support Apple with our purchases. As a committed Apple user, I sincerely hope Apple changes the decision and withdraws the donation. Please do not force people to go back to PCs because of our consciences.
Whether or not to offer equal rights and benefits to employees? same-sex partners is a call for any company to make. But to use a company's money to engage in politics (it IS political!) and seek to influence people with company money is crossing a line. This is not a civil rights issue, for some it is a morality and/or cultural issue. With all my heart, I ask Apple to remain neutral in this.
Are the shareholders aware of the financial harm that could result? Just look at this thread. It's not a wise decision for Apple to engage in something so divisive. Not good.
But AppleInsider has a lot of new members.
I don't care bout gay marriage but I say its wrong. Just my personal op.
So when I buy Apple products I am supporting a business that is actively campaigning to change the traditional definition of marriage?
I have personally bought 5 Apple computers and 6 iPods (not to mention dozens of accessories) in the past 5 years. I am also the pastor of a large church, which has, under my leadership bought dozens more Apple computers. In addition, many people in our church have "gone Mac" due to our experience.
The choice to NOT be neutral regarding cultural issues about which many Apple customers have deeply-held and thoughtful opinions may force many to NOT support Apple with our purchases. As a committed Apple user, I sincerely hope Apple changes the decision and withdraws the donation. Please do not force people to go back to PCs because of our consciences.
Whether or not to offer equal rights and benefits to employees’ same-sex partners is a call for any company to make. But to use a company's money to engage in politics (it IS political!) and seek to influence people with company money is crossing a line. This is not a civil rights issue, for some it is a morality and/or cultural issue. With all my heart, I ask Apple to remain neutral in this.
Are the shareholders aware of the financial harm that could result? Just look at this thread. It's not a wise decision for Apple to engage in something so divisive. Not good.
I'm in charge of a high school's IT management & purchase. I've been trying to switch our main platform to Mac for years, now I have more reason to do so for I not only like Apple as a innovative tech company, but a respectful social issue participant.
Even if I can't migrate our database & server to Xservers running OS X over night, I will make sure every new notebook issued this year, the new MacBook Pro will be an option, and I bet a lot of my fellow teachers will take it in a heart beat.
Prop 8 offend me in a worst way, I'm hetero and not a USA citizen.
If this prop ever get passed, the american spirit will be a little more dead.
This country would probably be better off without you! Please leave, do something to get INS to kick you out. I hope your visa or whatever is allowing you to stay here is revoked! This country needs less like you!
This country would probably be better off without you! Please leave, do something to get INS to kick you out. I hope your visa or whatever is allowing you to stay here is revoked! This country needs less like you!
Stop stereotyping yourself already.
Good thing you don't have a say about my VISA as long as you're not some NSA agent who can mark me as a "Terrorist" for supporting gay rights, or maybe "Arab"?
So when I buy Apple products I am supporting a business that is actively campaigning to change the traditional definition of marriage?
The definition of marriage was altered as soon as it became a legal contract. All this is doing is giving same sex couples the right to have that same legal contract. This does affect any religious definitions of marriage, for which there are many. It also doesn't force, request, or regulate how religions must deal with same sex marriages. This is only about the legal aspect of the union between two people who are devoting their lives to each other.
Did this legal contract originally stem from the religious marriage? Sure! But the term has changed and have been altered. It's The word marriage is now a polyseme, meaning that it has related but distinct meanings. The religious one for whatever religion you choose to follow and the legal one.
A Catholic can get married and divorced many times by law, but the church will only recognize the first. They are not required to perform the other ceremonies just as they will not required to perform any gay ceremonies.
I think the naming is really what is throwing people off on this civil liberty. Do you have any ideas on what to call it? A Fudge Pact? (I'm just kidding!) Seriously, if we are going to change the name, the name for the legal union and the union under God have to be different.
Whether or not to offer equal rights and benefits to employees? same-sex partners is a call for any company to make. But to use a company's money to engage in politics (it IS political!) and seek to influence people with company money is crossing a line. This is not a civil rights issue, for some it is a morality and/or cultural issue. With all my heart, I ask Apple to remain neutral in this.
All civil rights issues are political, but there is no mistaken that this is political. It wasn't long ago that it was considered immoral for interracial couples to marry. Are you disgusted by that? If not, I bet you know or knew people that are/were by the very idea, but I find it hard to think of anyone that would publicly say that it's an affront to God in this day and age. It's not any different. There is plenty of evidence to support the feelings you are expressing here. I don't mean to come off as hostile. From your postings you seem very decent, but I do think your definition and feelings are an emotional response to a learned attitude, one that I hope does change over time.
As for the money, Apple, Google et al. donate money to many organizations. These are a tax right off and are part of any healthy business. The only reason we know about this one is the current controversy surrounding it.
But AppleInsider has a lot of new members.
There are a lot of new members that signed up just to comment on this thread. AI need more controversial articles.
That being said, I am amazed how many people do not understand why we have marriage in the first place. While there are minor reasons, the main reason, the big elephant in the room, is children. Marriage is important because a man and woman can make babies. Since they make them, they own them. This is their privilege and their responsibility.
The reason why gay marriage doesn't make sense is they cannot produce babies. There are many other reasons but this is the big one. Nobody talks about this elephant in the room. They will debate the small reasons and overlook this main one.
The reason for this is probably because this issue is not just about gay marriage but also divorce and sex outside marriage. Since so many in our country are guilty of these things, nobody wants to bring them up.
It is in the state's best interest to protect its future generations. The state need to know who is married to whom and which children belong to which parents. It should do things to help protect its greatest natural reasource. Special treatment for married couples is the result.
Our court system is in shambles because we allow people to mess up their lives with adultery and easy divorce. Millions of children suffer. Everybody else suffers indirectly too. Everybody knows our country is way out of line on this issue.
Until we get back to this base for marriage, we will never solve the gay marriage debate. We also need to fix all the other marriage/divorce issues too. With half of our adults in the US with some form of VD, we need to wake up and see the moral codes of old were not there just to deny us some fun. They were there for health reasons and the sake of our children.
For Apple or any other large corporation to get involved with this controversial issue shows their foolishness. It is a very bad business decision. If someone wants to support one side or the other, they should do so out of their private money, not a corporation's money. This is not just for Apple, but also for all other corporations.
I would think Apple users would also understand the argument of how important it is to look at this issue as a whole. Just as Apple tries to create a good complete solution by integrating hardware, software, and services, so too should we view marriage as one important piece of a much larger civilization solution.
Most people approach the marriage issue like a PC user - they grab at one issue and have no idea how it fits into the whole. Thus they hack together a society and wonder why it has bugs and crashes frequently. They then look at the five to ten percent of people who have a system that works and declare them some cult of fanatics, or something like that.
Now no person is perfect just like no computer, operating system, or application is perfect. But just like we Mac users know how much better working on a Mac is over Windows, so too people who follow the main moral code know their experience is so much better. We follow a system that is of superior design.
While someone might scoff at the phrase " the main moral code", everybody knows basically what it is and that we should follow it. We all have this inner gut feeling when we do the wrong thing. We just want to make one exception for ourself.
Of course most people do this and we end up with a society that has standardized on an inferior moral platform. Everybody then goes along with this view just because it is the most popular. Then all these issues become like apps where one doesn't play nice with others. They fight for system resources and the whole system crashes. Every app blames the other app and nobody ever realizes the whole platform is at fault.
One should throw out their faulty Windows moral foundation and switch to one that is "Mac-like". Then problems like the gay marriage issue disappear. I know this whole analogy goes against popular opinion that most Mac users are liberals, but many of us are not. Regardless, I firmly think the analogy still stands.
Unfortunately there are many people who claim to follow some religious or moral code and they introduce their own distorted faulty system. Of such systems there are many. But I am not talking about those burdensome ones when I refer to this main moral code. The good trees produce good apples. The bad trees have fruit filled with bugs. That is how we can separate the good ideas from the bad ideas. After all, that is how we can tell the good computer systems from the bad systems.
Sorry I'm not religious. But I do recognize that things are either right or wrong.
Its so bad, bacause its wrong. Just like pedophilia is wrong. Just like stabbing random old ladies is wrong. Just like touching your sister is wrong. Its just plain wrong.
Why would I be scared they would make me gay? That is the stupidest thing I ever heard. Would I be scared of becoming a pedophile if pedophilia was legalized or becoming a crackhead if crack was legalized? Seriously thats the stupidest shi I ever heard and makes negative 2 ounces of sense.
Man do you have it wrong. Is being Gay just as wrong as being Black was in the 60s or being a Woman in the 80s. All these arguments, religious and not, are the same ones used against Black and Women's rights, just tweaked a little differently for this situation. Change is coming...GET USED TO IT!
Lots of replays already and lots of emotion. Obviously this topic strikes a nerve. I would think a company of Apple's size would do best to shy away from this controversy. Not good for business at all.
You have to figure how many people will respect Apple more now for this and consider their elitist, liberal clientelle, then minus the people won't now buy an Apple product are probably not Apple's key demographic anyway and then minus the people that aren't going to care one way or another how Apple feels about these civil liberties.
Have the anti-gay groups stopped buying newspapers and stopped using Google as their search engine because of this?
PS: This might all be a ruse to turn people away from the lack of FW on the new MacBook.
Prop no 8 is about ammending state law to disallow certain federal rights. Isn't it?
Or what is this thread about do you think?
The right to marry is a civil right. Just like free speech or the freedom of the press. When the CA supreme court said that the gay marriage ban was unconstitutional they said churches could believe what ever they wanted. From a LEGAL stand point marriage is going to be between two people. Religions can still believe what they want and practice how they will. People have already tried sueing the Catholics for not letting woman be priests, didn't work. SO for ALL OF YOU RELIGIOUS NUTS OUT THERE....CALM DOWN!! Homosexuals and heterosexuals a like won't be able to sue you little b.s. church. Churches like businesses have the right to refuse service to anyone. As long as they don't kick them out for sexual orientation then they CANNOT get sued.
Lots of replays already and lots of emotion. Obviously this topic strikes a nerve. I would think a company of Apple's size would do best to shy away from this controversy. Not good for business at all.
That being said, I am amazed how many people do not understand why we have marriage in the first place. While there are minor reasons, the main reason, the big elephant in the room, is children. Marriage is important because a man and woman can make babies. Since they make them, they own them. This is their privilege and their responsibility.
The reason why gay marriage doesn't make sense is they cannot produce babies. There are many other reasons but this is the big one. Nobody talks about this elephant in the room. They will debate the small reasons and overlook this main one.
The reason for this is probably because this issue is not just about gay marriage but also divorce and sex outside marriage. Since so many in our country are guilty of these things, nobody wants to bring them up.
It is in the state's best interest to protect its future generations. The state need to know who is married to whom and which children belong to which parents. It should do things to help protect its greatest natural reasource. Special treatment for married couples is the result.
Our court system is in shambles because we allow people to mess up their lives with adultery and easy divorce. Millions of children suffer. Everybody else suffers indirectly too. Everybody knows our country is way out of line on this issue.
Until we get back to this base for marriage, we will never solve the gay marriage debate. We also need to fix all the other marriage/divorce issues too. With half of our adults in the US with some form of VD, we need to wake up and see the moral codes of old were not there just to deny us some fun. They were there for health reasons and the sake of our children.
For Apple or any other large corporation to get involved with this controversial issue shows their foolishness. It is a very bad business decision. If someone wants to support one side or the other, they should do so out of their private money, not a corporation's money. This is not just for Apple, but also for all other corporations.
I would think Apple users would also understand the argument of how important it is to look at this issue as a whole. Just as Apple tries to create a good complete solution by integrating hardware, software, and services, so too should we view marriage as one important piece of a much larger civilization solution.
Most people approach the marriage issue like a PC user - they grab at one issue and have no idea how it fits into the whole. Thus they hack together a society and wonder why it has bugs and crashes frequently. They then look at the five to ten percent of people who have a system that works and declare them some cult of fanatics, or something like that.
Now no person is perfect just like no computer, operating system, or application is perfect. But just like we Mac users know how much better working on a Mac is over Windows, so too people who follow the main moral code know their experience is so much better. We follow a system that is of superior design.
While someone might scoff at the phrase " the main moral code", everybody knows basically what it is and that we should follow it. We all have this inner gut feeling when we do the wrong thing. We just want to make one exception for ourself.
Of course most people do this and we end up with a society that has standardized on an inferior moral platform. Everybody then goes along with this view just because it is the most popular. Then all these issues become like apps where one doesn't play nice with others. They fight for system resources and the whole system crashes. Every app blames the other app and nobody ever realizes the whole platform is at fault.
One should throw out their faulty Windows moral foundation and switch to one that is "Mac-like". Then problems like the gay marriage issue disappear. I know this whole analogy goes against popular opinion that most Mac users are liberals, but many of us are not. Regardless, I firmly think the analogy still stands.
Unfortunately there are many people who claim to follow some religious or moral code and they introduce their own distorted faulty system. Of such systems there are many. But I am not talking about those burdensome ones when I refer to this main moral code. The good trees produce good apples. The bad trees have fruit filled with bugs. That is how we can separate the good ideas from the bad ideas. After all, that is how we can tell the good computer systems from the bad systems.
oh please. like Apple, Google, or any other company is going to go under for supporting one proposition. Our society is too ignorant and I bet half the people walking around this country won't even know that Apple has donated to this cause. Honestly if there was no religions the world would be a much better case. Tell me about any major world issue in the last 2000 years where religion has not played a significant role in its happening!!