I expect a 30" model will follow shortly, so here's my question:
When using an iSight on the 30", I find I have to point the camera all the way down in order for it to be pointed at me (or more commonly, my kid). It appears that the camera in this display cannot be aimed. Is this true?
Cinema Display = expensive dongle (as it currently stands).
Do we know for sure whether this panel is PVA or IPS? The reviewer is inclinded to say IPS, but I'm not so sure. Given the $900 price tag and the 14ms response time, the Cinema Display would fall more in-line with PVA panels I would think. Not that PVA is at all bad; it is 8-bit like IPS (although the actual NTSC color gamut may be a little less than what an IPS would provide), and the response time is middle-of-the-road (TN panels being the fast end and IPS panels being the slow end). So, I'd say the Cinema Display is a prosumer dongle, but not necessarily a professional's first choice.
As a freelance graphic designer, I've already worked in more studios than most people will see in their entire career.
In the last year or so, a lot of the studios have been replacing their aging Power Mac G5s with aluminium iMacs, rather than Mac Pros. You can argue the benefits of the Mac Pros until you are blue in the face, but every single studio I've worked with can't see past the price tag, and hence they go for the iMac every single time.
So I've been asking around to see what end-users make of the new iMacs. Without exception, and I'm talking about 30+ seats here, including designers and artworkers, the end users loved the look of the new iMacs, but having used them for any longer than one day, they now HATE the iMacs glassy screen with a passion. The word 'torture' was actually used.
There are studios who replaced a few machines, realised their mistake, and are now scratching their heads about what to buy now, because unless they pony up for Mac Pros, their choices are limited.
This is where the market share and financial results don't tell the truth ? these studios have bought the kit, and the money is in Apple's coffers, but they don't actually like what they've bought, and they are unlikely to buy glassy Apple products again. In three years time, when they come to replace their fleet of aluminium iMacs, they aren't going to buy glassy again. And if all that Apple offers them is glassy, they simply won't be buying Apple.
I wonder how many aluminium iMac users, the power of denial aside, actually have buyers remorse? I'm guessing there are a lot of people out there who thought that the iMac looked great on the shopfloor are now regretting the glassy screen. I personally owned two, and I offloaded them on Ebay at a massive loss shortly after buying them.
I know I sure do. First Mac I've own that led to a decrease in productivity instead of an increase. Look, customer satisfaction doesn't show up for 3-5 years when they buy their next machine. Like you said, Apple already has the money for the current machines. If you alienate the professional base, they will leave. They have no choice as they're in the business of making money themselves. If price your most popular education models out of reach (Macbook), they will look elsewhere. And if the original iMacs were any indication, you can't count on the switcher staying as a given. Sure there are those who would spend a grand on a turkey sandwich if it had an Apple logo, but their numbers on the internet are far higher than their real life foot print. If you make your machines according to them and only them, can you think of the current profits as more like cash advances.
That that many. LED back lighting in larger desktop displays is still very expensive compared to similar CCFL backlit displays. Most companies don't want to take the risk quite yet and holding back until it becomes more affordable.
But the debate over digital vs. film was back when digital wasn't producing the same quality as film so it's not really a parallel situation. Digital eventually improved and got better than film.
From a technical sense of resolving picture and color information digital is not really better than film. Digital just became accepted and widely adopted.
Quote:
In this case, matte screens replaced the old CRT displays and alleviated the glare and reflection problems. The current trend toward glossy screens is a step backward in that regard.
LCD has never been considered technically equal to CRT. The only reason LCD has replaced CRT is because television manufacturers are all moving to LCD televisions. The CRT factories are all being shut down, while LCD factories are going online.
Quote:
A more similar situation would be if the makers of digital imaging equipment suddenly decided to push a system by which users would have to have their images "developed" on a physical media before you could view it, just like in the old days. That's more akin to what's happening with displays. It's an intentional step backward.
Having to develop an image on a physical medium is not a step backwards. Their are advantages to physical mediums. For one it exists as a physical medium. A digital image does not actually exist, its just a collection of data being read and displayed. Physical mediums do not need electricity to be seen. You can hold a positive film transparency up to the sun and see an image. You cannot do that with a digital image.
It's painfully obvious today that Apple has survived by keeping hardware and software controlled completely by them. What could be argued as once their downfall is now their reason for success. However, the new cinema display is really lacking. The lack of firewire and a glossy only screen has its cons, but the new display port is whats really whacked. I may not be the average user but I currently use my 23" apple cinema display through a dvi switch to several other macs. Now I have to wait to see if they put out an adapter. Which I don't see happening because the new display port is clearly a device to protect content. I will say that I do like the power cable provided, but no sleep or power controls? What gives! With the new macbooks missing firewire and now the new crippling display. Apple's new moniker should be "First it giveth' then they taketh away."
The lack of firewire and a glossy only screen has its cons, but the new display port is whats really whacked. I may not be the average user but I currently use my 23" apple cinema display through a dvi switch to several other macs. Now I have to wait to see if they put out an adapter.
This ACD is not designed to be used with all Macs its only designed for the notebooks.
Any one is free to use mini Display port so 3rd parties can make any type of adaptor they choose.
Quote:
Which I don't see happening because the new display port is clearly a device to protect content.
Not sure what you mean by this. Display port is designed to use HSDPA. This only restricts content that contains this type of DRM. It has no effect on content without HSDPA. It has absolutely nothing to do with display adaptors.
Quote:
Apple's new moniker should be "First it giveth' then they taketh away."
Apple has always abandoned older technology for newer technology. This is nothing new.
I consider my self a pro and have spend many many hours using PS + FCP with both Matte and Glossy screens. My conclusion is... There is nothing beating the Glossy screen!!! ( ...and I´m always right ) When I use my Glossy screen iMac and Glossy screen MacBook Pro in an invironment where light sources may be an issue, I just tilt or move the screen a little. Its no hassle, and its almost never a problem EVEN to start with!
Glossy displays create more saturated colours, deeper blacks, brighter whites, and are sharper than traditional matte displays.This makes these types of displays more appropriate for viewing photos, watching movies, or even just general computer usage such as web browsing. Also, in extremely bright conditions where no direct light is facing the screen, such as outdoors, glossy displays can become more readable than matte displays because they don't disperse the light around the screen (which would render a matte screen washed out).
Finally. It would be almost impossible to turn a Matte screen in to a functional Glossy screen. Its all in the glass! On the other hand it only takes a Non-glare film to change it the other way around.
Apple has made the right choice and they know it!
Agree with you 100% and I'm a pro too. Glossy is awesome!! Glad to see more people are seeing the light.
I just bought a 2.53 GHz macbook pro and will soon be getting the ACD dock to make life easier while in the office. Just shell out the cash if you can and get them and stop complaining. If you do real work the savings in time and improvement in quality of how you interact with your computer will pay itself in no time.
If you don't have the cash go buy el cheapo windows PC components and torture yourself while you eat shit and die.
I love control+eject... never have to use the mouse to shutdown/sleep/restart again!
You do realise that you can get the same thing as Control+Eject by pressing power? On a notebook it's right next to it and just one button, not two!
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell
Not sure what you mean by this. Display port is designed to use HSDPA. This only restricts content that contains this type of DRM. It has no effect on content without HSDPA. It has absolutely nothing to do with display adaptors.
I hope you mean HDCP, otherwise the new Cinema is a 24" iPhone.
And on that, HDCP first appeared through DVI. Not HDMI or DisplayPort, DVI. Apple could have kept DVI and implemented HDCP if they wanted to. The move to MDP is about keeping up with what will be the next industry standard, DisplayPort.
I just bought a 2.53 GHz macbook pro and will soon be getting the ACD dock to make life easier while in the office. Just shell out the cash if you can and get them and stop complaining. If you do real work the savings in time and improvement in quality of how you interact with your computer will pay itself in no time.
If you don't have the cash go buy el cheapo windows PC components and torture yourself while you eat shit and die.
That's mature. Buy a Dell 2408WFP and a spare MagSafe charger and you'll have nearly the same for less. Don't even think about pulling the "it'll use a crappy TN panel", because the Dell Ultrasharps use the Samsung PVA, and there's still no confirmation of whether the new Cinema even uses IPS! Plus you get to avoid the mirror effect.
On glossy vs matte, in early 2006 I bought a Toshiba laptop with a glossy screen and loved the color etc. When 2008 rolled around and I was going to buy my MacBook Pro, a friend convinced me to get matte. I'm glad he did. I can use mine on almost zero brightness in most average conditions, my old laptop had to always be on full to avoid reflections. And the same goes for the new MacBooks. The power savings of LED are offset by the need to have it on 100% brightness the whole time. To those "switchers" with glossy now, go and sit down at a matte screen for a while.
That's mature. Buy a Dell 2408WFP and a spare MagSafe charger and you'll have nearly the same for less. Don't even think about pulling the "it'll use a crappy TN panel", because the Dell Ultrasharps use the Samsung PVA, and there's still no confirmation of whether the new Cinema even uses IPS! Plus you get to avoid the mirror effect.
On glossy vs matte, in early 2006 I bought a Toshiba laptop with a glossy screen and loved the color etc. When 2008 rolled around and I was going to buy my MacBook Pro, a friend convinced me to get matte. I'm glad he did. I can use mine on almost zero brightness in most average conditions, my old laptop had to always be on full to avoid reflections. And the same goes for the new MacBooks. The power savings of LED are offset by the need to have it on 100% brightness the whole time. To those "switchers" with glossy now, go and sit down at a matte screen for a while.
I am sitting right now with my glossy macbook pro (october 2008 model) in a cafe with 100 ceiling lights, a fireplace, neon signs and cars... And the only reflection I can see are the black parts of the screen, which has no text or pictures on them anyways... and I don't need to go 100% brighness at all.
Also, for the $400 dollars you think you are saving you don't get power management, isight reroute, good sound with subwoofer, audio reroute, usb reroute, instant dual monitor if needed, an any other soft-hardware integration apple can think of. I don't know about you but it is just not worth my time to spend 2-3 hours researching a cheapo alternative for the pennies you will save.
I hope you mean HDCP, otherwise the new Cinema is a 24" iPhone.
Right, got my acronyms mixed up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woz2024
Buy a Dell 2408WFP and a spare MagSafe charger and you'll have nearly the same for less. Don't even think about pulling the "it'll use a crappy TN panel", because the Dell Ultrasharps use the Samsung PVA, and there's still no confirmation of whether the new Cinema even uses IPS! Plus you get to avoid the mirror effect.
Not the same: LED backlighting, web cam, speakers.
Quote:
The power savings of LED are offset by the need to have it on 100% brightness the whole time. To those "switchers" with glossy now, go and sit down at a matte screen for a while.
The LED backlighting in the MacBook makes a big difference in brightness and contrast. You don't need it on 100%.
Comments
Not true -- that's what Control + Shift + Eject is for. This will turn off all displays, internal and external.
cool beans! thanks for that.
I love control+eject... never have to use the mouse to shutdown/sleep/restart again!
When using an iSight on the 30", I find I have to point the camera all the way down in order for it to be pointed at me (or more commonly, my kid). It appears that the camera in this display cannot be aimed. Is this true?
Maury
Do we know for sure whether this panel is PVA or IPS? The reviewer is inclinded to say IPS, but I'm not so sure. Given the $900 price tag and the 14ms response time, the Cinema Display would fall more in-line with PVA panels I would think. Not that PVA is at all bad; it is 8-bit like IPS (although the actual NTSC color gamut may be a little less than what an IPS would provide), and the response time is middle-of-the-road (TN panels being the fast end and IPS panels being the slow end). So, I'd say the Cinema Display is a prosumer dongle, but not necessarily a professional's first choice.
As a freelance graphic designer, I've already worked in more studios than most people will see in their entire career.
In the last year or so, a lot of the studios have been replacing their aging Power Mac G5s with aluminium iMacs, rather than Mac Pros. You can argue the benefits of the Mac Pros until you are blue in the face, but every single studio I've worked with can't see past the price tag, and hence they go for the iMac every single time.
So I've been asking around to see what end-users make of the new iMacs. Without exception, and I'm talking about 30+ seats here, including designers and artworkers, the end users loved the look of the new iMacs, but having used them for any longer than one day, they now HATE the iMacs glassy screen with a passion. The word 'torture' was actually used.
There are studios who replaced a few machines, realised their mistake, and are now scratching their heads about what to buy now, because unless they pony up for Mac Pros, their choices are limited.
This is where the market share and financial results don't tell the truth ? these studios have bought the kit, and the money is in Apple's coffers, but they don't actually like what they've bought, and they are unlikely to buy glassy Apple products again. In three years time, when they come to replace their fleet of aluminium iMacs, they aren't going to buy glassy again. And if all that Apple offers them is glassy, they simply won't be buying Apple.
I wonder how many aluminium iMac users, the power of denial aside, actually have buyers remorse? I'm guessing there are a lot of people out there who thought that the iMac looked great on the shopfloor are now regretting the glassy screen. I personally owned two, and I offloaded them on Ebay at a massive loss shortly after buying them.
I know I sure do. First Mac I've own that led to a decrease in productivity instead of an increase. Look, customer satisfaction doesn't show up for 3-5 years when they buy their next machine. Like you said, Apple already has the money for the current machines. If you alienate the professional base, they will leave. They have no choice as they're in the business of making money themselves. If price your most popular education models out of reach (Macbook), they will look elsewhere. And if the original iMacs were any indication, you can't count on the switcher staying as a given. Sure there are those who would spend a grand on a turkey sandwich if it had an Apple logo, but their numbers on the internet are far higher than their real life foot print. If you make your machines according to them and only them, can you think of the current profits as more like cash advances.
What other (sub $1000) 24" LED backlit screens are 'out there'?
Lenovo (matte screen) $624.99
http://shopper.cnet.com/lcd-monitors...col;txt#info-5
Eizo (matte screen) - $780
http://www.eizo.com/products/lcd/ev2411w/index.asp
Any others?
All of the mac sites discussing merits/flaws of the new 24 LED backlit 'suggest' what types of panel it might be. PVA, IPS.......
What other (sub $1000) 24" LED backlit screens are 'out there'?
Lenovo (matte screen) $624.99
http://shopper.cnet.com/lcd-monitors...col;txt#info-5
Eizo (matte screen) - $780
http://www.eizo.com/products/lcd/ev2411w/index.asp
Any others?
That that many. LED back lighting in larger desktop displays is still very expensive compared to similar CCFL backlit displays. Most companies don't want to take the risk quite yet and holding back until it becomes more affordable.
All of the mac sites discussing merits/flaws of the new 24 LED backlit 'suggest' what types of panel it might be. PVA, IPS.......
What other (sub $1000) 24" LED backlit screens are 'out there'?
Lenovo (matte screen) $624.99
http://shopper.cnet.com/lcd-monitors...col;txt#info-5
Eizo (matte screen) - $780
http://www.eizo.com/products/lcd/ev2411w/index.asp
Any others?
The Lenovo has had very dismal review.
I don't believe the Eizo is available yet.
hey solipsism - you are a true arse. When you go to an art gallery or museuM- would you prefer to see a painting (canvas) as is?
0r under a shiny, glossy sheet of glass?
Most photography is usually under glass... the Mona Lisa is in a glass box.
Most photography is usually under glass... the Mona Lisa is in a glass box.
I love that I'm a "true arse" because I crack a joke about Jobs/Apple currently feels about matte display sales in relation to glossy display sales.
PS: Responding to Teckstud with facts, especially sourced ones, usually gets him riled up.
But the debate over digital vs. film was back when digital wasn't producing the same quality as film so it's not really a parallel situation. Digital eventually improved and got better than film.
From a technical sense of resolving picture and color information digital is not really better than film. Digital just became accepted and widely adopted.
In this case, matte screens replaced the old CRT displays and alleviated the glare and reflection problems. The current trend toward glossy screens is a step backward in that regard.
LCD has never been considered technically equal to CRT. The only reason LCD has replaced CRT is because television manufacturers are all moving to LCD televisions. The CRT factories are all being shut down, while LCD factories are going online.
A more similar situation would be if the makers of digital imaging equipment suddenly decided to push a system by which users would have to have their images "developed" on a physical media before you could view it, just like in the old days. That's more akin to what's happening with displays. It's an intentional step backward.
Having to develop an image on a physical medium is not a step backwards. Their are advantages to physical mediums. For one it exists as a physical medium. A digital image does not actually exist, its just a collection of data being read and displayed. Physical mediums do not need electricity to be seen. You can hold a positive film transparency up to the sun and see an image. You cannot do that with a digital image.
The lack of firewire and a glossy only screen has its cons, but the new display port is whats really whacked. I may not be the average user but I currently use my 23" apple cinema display through a dvi switch to several other macs. Now I have to wait to see if they put out an adapter.
This ACD is not designed to be used with all Macs its only designed for the notebooks.
Any one is free to use mini Display port so 3rd parties can make any type of adaptor they choose.
Which I don't see happening because the new display port is clearly a device to protect content.
Not sure what you mean by this. Display port is designed to use HSDPA. This only restricts content that contains this type of DRM. It has no effect on content without HSDPA. It has absolutely nothing to do with display adaptors.
Apple's new moniker should be "First it giveth' then they taketh away."
Apple has always abandoned older technology for newer technology. This is nothing new.
I consider my self a pro and have spend many many hours using PS + FCP with both Matte and Glossy screens. My conclusion is... There is nothing beating the Glossy screen!!! ( ...and I´m always right
Glossy displays create more saturated colours, deeper blacks, brighter whites, and are sharper than traditional matte displays.This makes these types of displays more appropriate for viewing photos, watching movies, or even just general computer usage such as web browsing. Also, in extremely bright conditions where no direct light is facing the screen, such as outdoors, glossy displays can become more readable than matte displays because they don't disperse the light around the screen (which would render a matte screen washed out).
Finally. It would be almost impossible to turn a Matte screen in to a functional Glossy screen. Its all in the glass! On the other hand it only takes a Non-glare film to change it the other way around.
Apple has made the right choice and they know it!
Agree with you 100% and I'm a pro too. Glossy is awesome!! Glad to see more people are seeing the light.
If you don't have the cash go buy el cheapo windows PC components and torture yourself while you eat shit and die.
cool beans! thanks for that.
I love control+eject... never have to use the mouse to shutdown/sleep/restart again!
You do realise that you can get the same thing as Control+Eject by pressing power? On a notebook it's right next to it and just one button, not two!
Not sure what you mean by this. Display port is designed to use HSDPA. This only restricts content that contains this type of DRM. It has no effect on content without HSDPA. It has absolutely nothing to do with display adaptors.
I hope you mean HDCP, otherwise the new Cinema is a 24" iPhone.
And on that, HDCP first appeared through DVI. Not HDMI or DisplayPort, DVI. Apple could have kept DVI and implemented HDCP if they wanted to. The move to MDP is about keeping up with what will be the next industry standard, DisplayPort.
If you don't have the cash go buy el cheapo windows PC components and torture yourself while you eat shit and die.
Come on, is that really necessary? I think this sort of crass display shows that you're another malcontent, just on the other side of the issue.
I just bought a 2.53 GHz macbook pro and will soon be getting the ACD dock to make life easier while in the office. Just shell out the cash if you can and get them and stop complaining. If you do real work the savings in time and improvement in quality of how you interact with your computer will pay itself in no time.
If you don't have the cash go buy el cheapo windows PC components and torture yourself while you eat shit and die.
That's mature. Buy a Dell 2408WFP and a spare MagSafe charger and you'll have nearly the same for less. Don't even think about pulling the "it'll use a crappy TN panel", because the Dell Ultrasharps use the Samsung PVA, and there's still no confirmation of whether the new Cinema even uses IPS! Plus you get to avoid the mirror effect.
On glossy vs matte, in early 2006 I bought a Toshiba laptop with a glossy screen and loved the color etc. When 2008 rolled around and I was going to buy my MacBook Pro, a friend convinced me to get matte. I'm glad he did. I can use mine on almost zero brightness in most average conditions, my old laptop had to always be on full to avoid reflections. And the same goes for the new MacBooks. The power savings of LED are offset by the need to have it on 100% brightness the whole time. To those "switchers" with glossy now, go and sit down at a matte screen for a while.
That's mature. Buy a Dell 2408WFP and a spare MagSafe charger and you'll have nearly the same for less. Don't even think about pulling the "it'll use a crappy TN panel", because the Dell Ultrasharps use the Samsung PVA, and there's still no confirmation of whether the new Cinema even uses IPS! Plus you get to avoid the mirror effect.
On glossy vs matte, in early 2006 I bought a Toshiba laptop with a glossy screen and loved the color etc. When 2008 rolled around and I was going to buy my MacBook Pro, a friend convinced me to get matte. I'm glad he did. I can use mine on almost zero brightness in most average conditions, my old laptop had to always be on full to avoid reflections. And the same goes for the new MacBooks. The power savings of LED are offset by the need to have it on 100% brightness the whole time. To those "switchers" with glossy now, go and sit down at a matte screen for a while.
I am sitting right now with my glossy macbook pro (october 2008 model) in a cafe with 100 ceiling lights, a fireplace, neon signs and cars... And the only reflection I can see are the black parts of the screen, which has no text or pictures on them anyways... and I don't need to go 100% brighness at all.
Also, for the $400 dollars you think you are saving you don't get power management, isight reroute, good sound with subwoofer, audio reroute, usb reroute, instant dual monitor if needed, an any other soft-hardware integration apple can think of. I don't know about you but it is just not worth my time to spend 2-3 hours researching a cheapo alternative for the pennies you will save.
[personal attack removed]
I hope you mean HDCP, otherwise the new Cinema is a 24" iPhone.
Right, got my acronyms mixed up.
Buy a Dell 2408WFP and a spare MagSafe charger and you'll have nearly the same for less. Don't even think about pulling the "it'll use a crappy TN panel", because the Dell Ultrasharps use the Samsung PVA, and there's still no confirmation of whether the new Cinema even uses IPS! Plus you get to avoid the mirror effect.
Not the same: LED backlighting, web cam, speakers.
The power savings of LED are offset by the need to have it on 100% brightness the whole time. To those "switchers" with glossy now, go and sit down at a matte screen for a while.
The LED backlighting in the MacBook makes a big difference in brightness and contrast. You don't need it on 100%.
So I guess it is eat shit and die for you.