Yeah. We are careful in selecting stories from certain publications, but the Inquirer has followed the NVIDIA story pretty well and their evidence in this case is clearly sound.
Frankly I don't buy the idea that the evidence is strong. More so I'm not convinced that we know exactly what the problem was with the Nvidia chips. Lots of rumors sure but where are Apples service reports and defect investigations?
Quote:
NVIDIA has also not been very forthcoming on subjects similar to this, and I can attest to that first hand. They have every opportunity to tell their side of the story. In addition to contacting them this morning, they know us well and how to get in touch with us.
Hopefully you can see why they wouldn't want to get into public discussions of this sort.
Quote:
If they issue comment, I will have the story updated. I have a feeling they will not, however, citing the privacy of their client (Apple). This was the response I was given while researching the problems with the MacBook Pro's 8600 chip, many weeks before Apple ultimately confirmed the problem independent of NVIDIA.
This is pretty much standard operating procedure for companies that want to keep their customers.
Quote:
Best,
K
Some of the problems I have with this reporting are listed below:
1.
I'm not sure how any current production computer can have lead based solder in it's construction and be sold in the EU. The RoHS would seem to prevent that but there could be exceptions.
2.
Tin based solders have their own issues including the growth of whiskers. Frankly the whole electronics industry has had to deal with problems associated with the move to lead free solders and frankly it has been a step backwards. One of the biggest complaints about the RoSH was the mandating of lead free electronics before suitable replacements have been found.
3.
Something as nasty as a process issue can lead to bad solder joints. Often these are referred to as cold solder joints and can cause issues based on thermal conditions, vibrations or other things.
4.
Solder joints can be thermally stressed by trying to pass to much current through them. A thermal failure of a solder joint does not automatically imply bad solder. All joints have mechanical and thermal limits outside of which reliabilty becomes an issue.
In any event enough with the list! What one needs to know is if Apples products are RoHS compliant or not. If they are I can't imagine much lead being in the machine.
I believe the OP was making a joke... the Enquirer versus the Inquirer. As in the National Enquirer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasper
Yeah. We are careful in selecting stories from certain publications, but the Inquirer has followed the NVIDIA story pretty well and their evidence in this case is clearly sound. NVIDIA has also not been very forthcoming on subjects similar to this, and I can attest to that first hand. They have every opportunity to tell their side of the story. In addition to contacting them this morning, they know us well and how to get in touch with us. If they issue comment, I will have the story updated. I have a feeling they will not, however, citing the privacy of their client (Apple). This was the response I was given while researching the problems with the MacBook Pro's 8600 chip, many weeks before Apple ultimately confirmed the problem independent of NVIDIA.
Normally you do need to take what the Enquirer says with a grain of salt, but if I recall they were the ones that really broke the 8000 series issues and continued to follow up on the huge scope including the fact that if effect certain desktops with intergrated graphics. HP only confirmed this (for my Slimline by extending the warranty) after the Enquirer broke that as well.
So yes I would take them at their words about this issue, and its what caused my reaction and promise not to buy the new Macbooks as i wanted more powerful Intel or ATI chip. I'll stick with my White 2.4ghz Macbook for now. Also the fact that it didn't have firewire has caused me to criticise. Hopefully the next edition will be one colour (not aluminum and black, just black or aluminum) and drop Nvidia and add firewire. I can dream can't I... (And i do realize that only the pro is effected SO FAR)
I'm sorry you don't reward a supplier with quality issues on getting to be your whole chipset with a even more lucrative contract for more parts. Apple will reap from this bad judgement.
Engadget further seems to claim they have gotten word that some users are experiencing graphics issues which seems to further cement this as a reality.
I've been saying for some time here, that the main reason why Apple has been underclocking their GPS in certain machines is because of this NVidia problem, which, by the way has been known about for well over a year, and likely started before then.
Understand that this problem first came to light with Hp's laptops. Nvidia at first claimed that it was just a short production run affecting those 20,000 machines, but it was seen that it wasn't the case.
Note that many machines from other manufacturers that are using Nvidia's chips have had actual meltdowns from this, while Apple's haven't.
I've been hoping that Apple would have switched to ATI chips during this time, but they didn't.
I assumed that by underclocking by the amount they did, they would have avoided the heat problems.
Nvidia's chips made since late October are supposed to be free from this problem.
Frankly I don't buy the idea that the evidence is strong. More so I'm not convinced that we know exactly what the problem was with the Nvidia chips. Lots of rumors sure but where are Apples service reports and defect investigations?
The evidence is strong that All of NVidia's chips have been manufactured with this older technology for some time, and have only recently stopped.
Quote:
Hopefully you can see why they wouldn't want to get into public discussions of this sort.
Nvidia has been denying this whole thing from the beginning.
Nvidia's been protecting themselves. It has nothing to do with their clients, which have been demanding hundreds of millions in compensation. Nvidia had to put hundreds of millions into a fund earlier this year for those very payments, and the financial debacle resulting has caused them much investor grief.
Quote:
This is pretty much standard operating procedure for companies that want to keep their customers.
A much better way is to not go the cheap route in manufacturing, which is what they did in the first place. Then trying to contain knowledge of the disaster, rather than just coming out and admitting it, as they also did.
Quote:
Some of the problems I have with this reporting are listed below:
1.
I'm not sure how any current production computer can have lead based solder in it's construction and be sold in the EU. The RoHS would seem to prevent that but there could be exceptions.
Some parts production is grandfathered in, until the parts are superceded by new ones.
Quote:
2.
Tin based solders have their own issues including the growth of whiskers. Frankly the whole electronics industry has had to deal with problems associated with the move to lead free solders and frankly it has been a step backwards. One of the biggest complaints about the RoSH was the mandating of lead free electronics before suitable replacements have been found.
Whisker growth is not a problem for these connections. It's mostly a problem with far smaller nodes, such as those on the chip itself, for which reason, manufacturers have moved to gold plated wiring, rather than the older tin plate.
Quote:
3.
Something as nasty as a process issue can lead to bad solder joints. Often these are referred to as cold solder joints and can cause issues based on thermal conditions, vibrations or other things.
The problem here is that the tin and the lead have different rates of expansion as the temp rises, leading to a breakage in the connections. It's well known that one should never mix lead based solder with tin bumps. This was a major error.
Quote:
4.
Solder joints can be thermally stressed by trying to pass to much current through them. A thermal failure of a solder joint does not automatically imply bad solder. All joints have mechanical and thermal limits outside of which reliabilty becomes an issue.
That's a different problem. no one is saying that too much current is present. The problem is the point heat generated at the solder joints. It isn't too hot per se. The problem is that the tin softens earlier than the higher temp lead. Normally, this wouldn't be a problem, as the tin from the chip would soften by the same amount (I'm not talking about softening to the point of melting, just a lowering of tensile strength). But the lead remains stiff. As the tin on the sub board bumps move, the lead on the chip doesn't, resulting in a break.
Normally you do need to take what the Enquirer says with a grain of salt, but if I recall they were the ones that really broke the 8000 series issues and continued to follow up on the huge scope including the fact that if effect certain desktops with intergrated graphics. HP only confirmed this (for my Slimline by extending the warranty) after the Enquirer broke that as well.
So yes I would take them at their words about this issue, and its what caused my reaction and promise not to buy the new Macbooks as i wanted more powerful Intel or ATI chip. I'll stick with my White 2.4ghz Macbook for now. Also the fact that it didn't have firewire has caused me to criticise. Hopefully the next edition will be one colour (not aluminum and black, just black or aluminum) and drop Nvidia and add firewire. I can dream can't I... (And i do realize that only the pro is effected SO FAR)
I'm sorry you don't reward a supplier with quality issues on getting to be your whole chipset with a even more lucrative contract for more parts. Apple will reap from this bad judgement.
Engadget further seems to claim they have gotten word that some users are experiencing graphics issues which seems to further cement this as a reality.
You keep referring to the MB's. The story references the MBP's. Are they both affected? I assumed the MBP would be the only one to be affected?
You keep referring to the MB's. The story references the MBP's. Are they both affected? I assumed the MBP would be the only one to be affected?
Sorry I rambled really about both the MB and the MBP. And if you were to READ it entirely I did explicity state that only the MBP had reported issues so far. Though I have my worries about nvidia in general and a reason for me avoiding the MB (together with the firewire issue).
I guess in my mind the MB and MBP are really the same, since they look the same, have the same cpus (in the high end MB), same chipset etc... But yes its only the dedicated graphics, not the intergrated that is having issues. Though I don't really trust Nvidia... especially not after this. My post was more what I wish apple had released as a new MacBook, preferably using ATI.
My post was more what I wish apple had released as a new MacBook, preferably using ATI.
While I agree with you about this, here's why Apple is moving to Nvidia in a big way, though that could change in the future as ATI moves completely in this direction, as they have begun to do.
Oh no. ATI is dropping their implementation of CTM to use OpenCL instead, whereas Nvidia will likely be using it on top of their own CUDA.
I'm not talking about OpenCL. I'm talking about inclusion of the chips themselves. If Apple were to request certain things of ATI with respect to inclusion of the chip on a motherboard they may not be as likely to get what they want because of not using AMD.
While I'm at it, I'll mention that Apple has *always* underclocked their GPUs. Even on the PowerPC, and even ATI chips as well. My Power Mac G5 dual 2.0 GHz came with the ATI Radeon 9800 and it was underclocked relative to the PC version.
I'm not talking about OpenCL. I'm talking about inclusion of the chips themselves. If Apple were to request certain things of ATI with respect to inclusion of the chip on a motherboard they may not be as likely to get what they want because of not using AMD.
I can't agree with that at all.
First of all, it's much more likely that ATI would respond favorably than Nvidia, as AMD is in such desprate straits these days, and will be tryng to get all the business it can. ATI right now, is the light of the company, whereas it was originally thought to be its anchor.
Secondly, there's no evidence that Nvidia is making any changes to its chips for Apple that it isn't making for anyone else, which is to say, just about none.
Sorry I rambled really about both the MB and the MBP. And if you were to READ it entirely I did explicity state that only the MBP had reported issues so far. Though I have my worries about nvidia in general and a reason for me avoiding the MB (together with the firewire issue).
I guess in my mind the MB and MBP are really the same, since they look the same, have the same cpus (in the high end MB), same chipset etc... But yes its only the dedicated graphics, not the intergrated that is having issues. Though I don't really trust Nvidia... especially not after this. My post was more what I wish apple had released as a new MacBook, preferably using ATI.
I am not inciting a riot over it, I just happen to receive my new 2.4 GHz MB Aluminum the other day. I was like, WTH??? I had the first generation Intel MBP that had the noise problem that took two trips to Apple to get fixed before they found the fix was due to a faulty part. So I am sensitive to this.
So, I guess my question at this point is as follows: If Apple doesn't show an inclination to switch GPU manufacturers when will it be okay to upgrade to the new unibody MBP and feel reasonably secure I'm not purchasing inherently defective hardware?
I wonder why they used scanning electron microscope equipped with an X-ray microanalysis system. What I have access to, Mass Spec with Mass analyzer is what I would have used, cheaper then SEM with X-ray. But hey I guess if you have it and have the cash to waste have fun with it
I'm not talking about OpenCL. I'm talking about inclusion of the chips themselves. If Apple were to request certain things of ATI with respect to inclusion of the chip on a motherboard they may not be as likely to get what they want because of not using AMD.
While I'm at it, I'll mention that Apple has *always* underclocked their GPUs. Even on the PowerPC, and even ATI chips as well. My Power Mac G5 dual 2.0 GHz came with the ATI Radeon 9800 and it was underclocked relative to the PC version.
There's a reason AMD kept the ATI name when it bought out the graphics company, and that's because it needs every sale it can get. Intel quite happily lists "ATI Crossfire" on the features of its chipsets, they don't care that the company is owned by their only competitor.
AMD doesn't make chipsets for Intel processors (although thanks to ATI they have a license to do so ), so you're obviously not going to see ATI's integrated graphics in any Macs, and that was Apple's focus with the Macbook line. But Apple has always tried not to play favorites with graphics in the past, and I don't see that changing. Let's see what GPUs get put in updated iMacs and Mac Pros before we declare Apple's relationship with ATI dead.
You'd have to ask an Apple engineer why they always underclock GPUs, but I am 99% sure it's for noise reasons. Lower clock = less heat = slower fans = less noise, and Steve is a freak about noise.
I'm sorry, but I really can't see the GeForce 9600M GT being faulty in the same fashion as the GeForce 8600M GT after Apple moved their entire notebook line to NVIDIA solutions, they'd be screwing themselves in the long run because if the chips were faulty, Apple will wind up suing NVIDIA far enough into the ground that ATI is going to be classified as the Sun.
Comments
I believe it is used in the construction of zeppelins.
Oh, hells yeah:
Yeah. We are careful in selecting stories from certain publications, but the Inquirer has followed the NVIDIA story pretty well and their evidence in this case is clearly sound.
Frankly I don't buy the idea that the evidence is strong. More so I'm not convinced that we know exactly what the problem was with the Nvidia chips. Lots of rumors sure but where are Apples service reports and defect investigations?
NVIDIA has also not been very forthcoming on subjects similar to this, and I can attest to that first hand. They have every opportunity to tell their side of the story. In addition to contacting them this morning, they know us well and how to get in touch with us.
Hopefully you can see why they wouldn't want to get into public discussions of this sort.
If they issue comment, I will have the story updated. I have a feeling they will not, however, citing the privacy of their client (Apple). This was the response I was given while researching the problems with the MacBook Pro's 8600 chip, many weeks before Apple ultimately confirmed the problem independent of NVIDIA.
This is pretty much standard operating procedure for companies that want to keep their customers.
Best,
K
Some of the problems I have with this reporting are listed below:
1.
I'm not sure how any current production computer can have lead based solder in it's construction and be sold in the EU. The RoHS would seem to prevent that but there could be exceptions.
2.
Tin based solders have their own issues including the growth of whiskers. Frankly the whole electronics industry has had to deal with problems associated with the move to lead free solders and frankly it has been a step backwards. One of the biggest complaints about the RoSH was the mandating of lead free electronics before suitable replacements have been found.
3.
Something as nasty as a process issue can lead to bad solder joints. Often these are referred to as cold solder joints and can cause issues based on thermal conditions, vibrations or other things.
4.
Solder joints can be thermally stressed by trying to pass to much current through them. A thermal failure of a solder joint does not automatically imply bad solder. All joints have mechanical and thermal limits outside of which reliabilty becomes an issue.
In any event enough with the list! What one needs to know is if Apples products are RoHS compliant or not. If they are I can't imagine much lead being in the machine.
Dave
Yeah. We are careful in selecting stories from certain publications, but the Inquirer has followed the NVIDIA story pretty well and their evidence in this case is clearly sound. NVIDIA has also not been very forthcoming on subjects similar to this, and I can attest to that first hand. They have every opportunity to tell their side of the story. In addition to contacting them this morning, they know us well and how to get in touch with us. If they issue comment, I will have the story updated. I have a feeling they will not, however, citing the privacy of their client (Apple). This was the response I was given while researching the problems with the MacBook Pro's 8600 chip, many weeks before Apple ultimately confirmed the problem independent of NVIDIA.
Best,
K
So yes I would take them at their words about this issue, and its what caused my reaction and promise not to buy the new Macbooks as i wanted more powerful Intel or ATI chip. I'll stick with my White 2.4ghz Macbook for now. Also the fact that it didn't have firewire has caused me to criticise. Hopefully the next edition will be one colour (not aluminum and black, just black or aluminum) and drop Nvidia and add firewire. I can dream can't I... (And i do realize that only the pro is effected SO FAR)
I'm sorry you don't reward a supplier with quality issues on getting to be your whole chipset with a even more lucrative contract for more parts. Apple will reap from this bad judgement.
Engadget further seems to claim they have gotten word that some users are experiencing graphics issues which seems to further cement this as a reality.
Understand that this problem first came to light with Hp's laptops. Nvidia at first claimed that it was just a short production run affecting those 20,000 machines, but it was seen that it wasn't the case.
Note that many machines from other manufacturers that are using Nvidia's chips have had actual meltdowns from this, while Apple's haven't.
I've been hoping that Apple would have switched to ATI chips during this time, but they didn't.
I assumed that by underclocking by the amount they did, they would have avoided the heat problems.
Nvidia's chips made since late October are supposed to be free from this problem.
Frankly I don't buy the idea that the evidence is strong. More so I'm not convinced that we know exactly what the problem was with the Nvidia chips. Lots of rumors sure but where are Apples service reports and defect investigations?
The evidence is strong that All of NVidia's chips have been manufactured with this older technology for some time, and have only recently stopped.
Hopefully you can see why they wouldn't want to get into public discussions of this sort.
Nvidia has been denying this whole thing from the beginning.
Nvidia's been protecting themselves. It has nothing to do with their clients, which have been demanding hundreds of millions in compensation. Nvidia had to put hundreds of millions into a fund earlier this year for those very payments, and the financial debacle resulting has caused them much investor grief.
This is pretty much standard operating procedure for companies that want to keep their customers.
A much better way is to not go the cheap route in manufacturing, which is what they did in the first place. Then trying to contain knowledge of the disaster, rather than just coming out and admitting it, as they also did.
Some of the problems I have with this reporting are listed below:
1.
I'm not sure how any current production computer can have lead based solder in it's construction and be sold in the EU. The RoHS would seem to prevent that but there could be exceptions.
Some parts production is grandfathered in, until the parts are superceded by new ones.
2.
Tin based solders have their own issues including the growth of whiskers. Frankly the whole electronics industry has had to deal with problems associated with the move to lead free solders and frankly it has been a step backwards. One of the biggest complaints about the RoSH was the mandating of lead free electronics before suitable replacements have been found.
Whisker growth is not a problem for these connections. It's mostly a problem with far smaller nodes, such as those on the chip itself, for which reason, manufacturers have moved to gold plated wiring, rather than the older tin plate.
3.
Something as nasty as a process issue can lead to bad solder joints. Often these are referred to as cold solder joints and can cause issues based on thermal conditions, vibrations or other things.
The problem here is that the tin and the lead have different rates of expansion as the temp rises, leading to a breakage in the connections. It's well known that one should never mix lead based solder with tin bumps. This was a major error.
4.
Solder joints can be thermally stressed by trying to pass to much current through them. A thermal failure of a solder joint does not automatically imply bad solder. All joints have mechanical and thermal limits outside of which reliabilty becomes an issue.
That's a different problem. no one is saying that too much current is present. The problem is the point heat generated at the solder joints. It isn't too hot per se. The problem is that the tin softens earlier than the higher temp lead. Normally, this wouldn't be a problem, as the tin from the chip would soften by the same amount (I'm not talking about softening to the point of melting, just a lowering of tensile strength). But the lead remains stiff. As the tin on the sub board bumps move, the lead on the chip doesn't, resulting in a break.
Normally you do need to take what the Enquirer says with a grain of salt, but if I recall they were the ones that really broke the 8000 series issues and continued to follow up on the huge scope including the fact that if effect certain desktops with intergrated graphics. HP only confirmed this (for my Slimline by extending the warranty) after the Enquirer broke that as well.
So yes I would take them at their words about this issue, and its what caused my reaction and promise not to buy the new Macbooks as i wanted more powerful Intel or ATI chip. I'll stick with my White 2.4ghz Macbook for now. Also the fact that it didn't have firewire has caused me to criticise. Hopefully the next edition will be one colour (not aluminum and black, just black or aluminum) and drop Nvidia and add firewire. I can dream can't I... (And i do realize that only the pro is effected SO FAR)
I'm sorry you don't reward a supplier with quality issues on getting to be your whole chipset with a even more lucrative contract for more parts. Apple will reap from this bad judgement.
Engadget further seems to claim they have gotten word that some users are experiencing graphics issues which seems to further cement this as a reality.
You keep referring to the MB's. The story references the MBP's. Are they both affected? I assumed the MBP would be the only one to be affected?
You keep referring to the MB's. The story references the MBP's. Are they both affected? I assumed the MBP would be the only one to be affected?
Sorry I rambled really about both the MB and the MBP. And if you were to READ it entirely I did explicity state that only the MBP had reported issues so far. Though I have my worries about nvidia in general and a reason for me avoiding the MB (together with the firewire issue).
I guess in my mind the MB and MBP are really the same, since they look the same, have the same cpus (in the high end MB), same chipset etc... But yes its only the dedicated graphics, not the intergrated that is having issues. Though I don't really trust Nvidia... especially not after this. My post was more what I wish apple had released as a new MacBook, preferably using ATI.
My post was more what I wish apple had released as a new MacBook, preferably using ATI.
While I agree with you about this, here's why Apple is moving to Nvidia in a big way, though that could change in the future as ATI moves completely in this direction, as they have begun to do.
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post...c-release.html
ATI is no longer a separate company. They are owned by AMD. Perhaps they don't want to play ball with Apple if they won't use AMD's chips?
Think about it.
People are forgetting one small detail.
ATI is no longer a separate company. They are owned by AMD. Perhaps they don't want to play ball with Apple if they won't use AMD's chips?
Think about it.
Oh no. ATI is dropping their implementation of CTM to use OpenCL instead, whereas Nvidia will likely be using it on top of their own CUDA.
Oh no. ATI is dropping their implementation of CTM to use OpenCL instead, whereas Nvidia will likely be using it on top of their own CUDA.
I'm not talking about OpenCL. I'm talking about inclusion of the chips themselves. If Apple were to request certain things of ATI with respect to inclusion of the chip on a motherboard they may not be as likely to get what they want because of not using AMD.
While I'm at it, I'll mention that Apple has *always* underclocked their GPUs. Even on the PowerPC, and even ATI chips as well. My Power Mac G5 dual 2.0 GHz came with the ATI Radeon 9800 and it was underclocked relative to the PC version.
I'm not talking about OpenCL. I'm talking about inclusion of the chips themselves. If Apple were to request certain things of ATI with respect to inclusion of the chip on a motherboard they may not be as likely to get what they want because of not using AMD.
I can't agree with that at all.
First of all, it's much more likely that ATI would respond favorably than Nvidia, as AMD is in such desprate straits these days, and will be tryng to get all the business it can. ATI right now, is the light of the company, whereas it was originally thought to be its anchor.
Secondly, there's no evidence that Nvidia is making any changes to its chips for Apple that it isn't making for anyone else, which is to say, just about none.
Sorry I rambled really about both the MB and the MBP. And if you were to READ it entirely I did explicity state that only the MBP had reported issues so far. Though I have my worries about nvidia in general and a reason for me avoiding the MB (together with the firewire issue).
I guess in my mind the MB and MBP are really the same, since they look the same, have the same cpus (in the high end MB), same chipset etc... But yes its only the dedicated graphics, not the intergrated that is having issues. Though I don't really trust Nvidia... especially not after this. My post was more what I wish apple had released as a new MacBook, preferably using ATI.
I am not inciting a riot over it, I just happen to receive my new 2.4 GHz MB Aluminum the other day.
I'm not talking about OpenCL. I'm talking about inclusion of the chips themselves. If Apple were to request certain things of ATI with respect to inclusion of the chip on a motherboard they may not be as likely to get what they want because of not using AMD.
While I'm at it, I'll mention that Apple has *always* underclocked their GPUs. Even on the PowerPC, and even ATI chips as well. My Power Mac G5 dual 2.0 GHz came with the ATI Radeon 9800 and it was underclocked relative to the PC version.
There's a reason AMD kept the ATI name when it bought out the graphics company, and that's because it needs every sale it can get. Intel quite happily lists "ATI Crossfire" on the features of its chipsets, they don't care that the company is owned by their only competitor.
AMD doesn't make chipsets for Intel processors (although thanks to ATI they have a license to do so
You'd have to ask an Apple engineer why they always underclock GPUs, but I am 99% sure it's for noise reasons. Lower clock = less heat = slower fans = less noise, and Steve is a freak about noise.
Reading the story, the journalists do seem to have done their homework this time out. I don't have a problem with the source.
...
I do have problem with it. The root cause cited is highly improbable the true cause.