Whatever, 'rat. If you can find an earlier example of the NeXT Shelf than NeXT, I'm all ears, it would be an interesting bit of data. If you can't, then it's pretty clear what the origination point was.
How about Windows 1.0?
And even now comparisons with the NeXT shelf are unwarranted, because the NeXT shelf was a file management tool, not a window management tool (like the Windows taskbar). You could drag files from one location to the shelf as a temporary holding pen before moving that file somewhere else (or simply leaving it there for quick access). The Windows 7 taskbar doesn't do that, it has other ways of handling it (pinning to jump lists) and the ability to cut/copy/paste files.
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With minor variations, such as thumbnails, the new Win 7 taskbar looks and acts an awful lot like the Dock. Which is fine, ideas are copied all the time... but to claim it's ZOMG innovative is pretty weak sauce. It's an obvious functional copy, with some refinements, and some throwbacks.
Not once have I claimed that the Windows 7 taskbar is "ZOMG innovative" or even "innovative sans acronym". Did you read this thread? Because I'm really curious as to where I am supposed to have lauded Microsoft's originality.
The Windows 7 taskbar is only slightly different from the Vista taskbar.
- Application-specific windows are grouped under a big icon instead of spread out. (application-specific window grouping existed since XP (perhaps earlier))
- There are handy "jump lists" that you can pin often-used documents to or tie often-used commands to (like controls for media player apps).
- The mouse-over preview functionality is a little more useful. (close windows from mouseover, etc…)
The Windows 7 taskbar an evolution of existing ideas. Saying it's an "obvious functional copy" shows that eitherr you haven't used the Windows 7 taskbar or you haven't bothered paying attention to it beyond "big icon and translucent means they copied it from Apple".
And even now comparisons with the NeXT shelf are unwarranted, because the NeXT shelf was a file management tool, not a window management tool (like the Windows taskbar). You could drag files from one location to the shelf as a temporary holding pen before moving that file somewhere else (or simply leaving it there for quick access). The Windows 7 taskbar doesn't do that, it has other ways of handling it (pinning to jump lists) and the ability to cut/copy/paste files.
Not once have I claimed that the Windows 7 taskbar is "ZOMG innovative" or even "innovative sans acronym". Did you read this thread? Because I'm really curious as to where I am supposed to have lauded Microsoft's originality.
The Windows 7 taskbar is only slightly different from the Vista taskbar.
- Application-specific windows are grouped under a big icon instead of spread out. (application-specific window grouping existed since XP (perhaps earlier))
- There are handy "jump lists" that you can pin often-used documents to or tie often-used commands to (like controls for media player apps).
- The mouse-over preview functionality is a little more useful. (close windows from mouseover, etc…)
The Windows 7 taskbar an evolution of existing ideas. Saying it's an "obvious functional copy" shows that eitherr you haven't used the Windows 7 taskbar or you haven't bothered paying attention to it beyond "big icon and translucent means they copied it from Apple".
Where did you get that "screenshot" of Windows 1.0? That's not what the standard screen looked like. Windows did not have a taskbar (and Start menu) until Windows 95.
You can see more Windows 1.0 screenshots here, many screenshots with the early taskbar.
If you're interested in reading about the evolution of the Windows taskbar, read about it here.
Relevant excerpt:
Quote:
Windows 1.0 supported zoomed (full-screen), tiled and icon (minimized) windows. Since there was no support for overlapping [that big debate between charless and billg, Steven], a dedicated portion of the desktop was kept visible at the bottom of the screen to surface non-tiled and non-zoomed windows. By minimizing a window or dragging it to the bottom of the screen, the person was able to populate this rudimentary taskbar with a large icon corresponding to the running window. She could then get back to this window by clicking or dragging this icon to the desktop. As simple as this mechanism seems today, it cemented an important concept that is with us even in Windows 7—when people switch between tasks, they are really switching between windows. Although it took Windows 95 to introduce a mature taskbar with launching, switching and notification functionality, the experience of surfacing and switching between windows via a dedicated region at the bottom of the screen is as ancient as Windows 1.0.
This is important for people to remember, the fundamental difference in focus between Windows and MacOS: Windows is window-centric and MacOS is app-centric.
The idea that Microsoft software engineers sit around and wonder how they can copy Apple is ridiculous, and vice versa. These companies are not ripping each other off, no matter how much the weaker of the two (Apple and its fans) may want to cling to the idea to give themselves some kind of credibility in the face of a perceived status. There's a real short-man syndrome among self-identified Apple loyalists, which is absolutely ridiculous because they have no real stake in any perceived debate. If Windows gets better (which it inarguably has) that benefits everyone, and the same goes for OSX (although to a much lesser extent due to Apple's paltry market share).
Give me a mouse and keyboard and I prefer Windows. Give me a laptop and I prefer Mac OSX. I feel hampered by OSX on a desktop machine and I feel overwhelmed by Windows on a laptop. I like both operating systems, and both are improving a great deal. To imagine that they are stealing from each other gives neither any credit. Both companies have brilliant software engineers.
The idea that Microsoft software engineers sit around and wonder how they can copy Apple is ridiculous, and vice versa. These companies are not ripping each other off, no matter how much the weaker of the two (Apple and its fans) may want to cling to the idea to give themselves some kind of credibility in the face of a perceived status.
....To imagine that they are stealing from each other gives neither any credit. Both companies have brilliant software engineers.
What about Vista's trash c-*err* recycle bin? Are you trying to tell me that's not a knock-off?
What you're saying is true for many things, but there's no question Windows has followed Apples lead in a number of design and functional areas.
Expose, for example, is clearly something where Apple led and Windows followed.
And even now comparisons with the NeXT shelf are unwarranted, because the NeXT shelf was a file management tool, not a window management tool (like the Windows taskbar). You could drag files from one location to the shelf as a temporary holding pen before moving that file somewhere else (or simply leaving it there for quick access). The Windows 7 taskbar doesn't do that, it has other ways of handling it (pinning to jump lists) and the ability to cut/copy/paste files.
No, not the Shelf in the pre-OPENSTEP 4.0 betas, the all new singing dancing UI item named Shelf in the OPENSTEP 4.0 beta. (That's why I specifically mentioned that build - and yeah, a lot of NeXTies were confused too. It was bad naming.)
It was very much an application manager, with secondary access to windows, like the applications section of the Dock is now.
It never made it to production - when OPENSTEP 4.0 was finally shipped, it had been removed.
Interesting screenshot, thanks, but like you said, that's a window manager, like the Taskbar - one icon per window. Windows is (not surprisingly with the name ) windows-centric. The OPENSTEP 4.0 beta Shelf was born out of the NeXTstep Launcher, which was, again, not surprisingly, app-centric. It's a clear parallel evolution, with two different original intents.
And now, the Win7 Taskbar is, on the surface, app-centric, and secondarily window-centric. I think it's a good move, and solves some of the issues I've long had with the Taskbar, but it also does rather open them up to claims of copying the Dock, since it now *functionally* is much closer in operation.
Again... *shrug*
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Not once have I claimed that the Windows 7 taskbar is "ZOMG innovative" or even "innovative sans acronym". Did you read this thread? Because I'm really curious as to where I am supposed to have lauded Microsoft's originality.
I didn't say you did - but you did come down on folks here for saying it was a close functional copy of the Dock... which it is. It had a different origin, but an app-centric icon strip is what it's ending up on. The origins are more or less irrelevant, if it quacks like a Dock and looks like a Dock. (Sorry, couldn't resist.)
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The Windows 7 taskbar is only slightly different from the Vista taskbar.
- Application-specific windows are grouped under a big icon instead of spread out. (application-specific window grouping existed since XP (perhaps earlier))
Like the Dock has been since 10.0...
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- There are handy "jump lists" that you can pin often-used documents to or tie often-used commands to (like controls for media player apps).
Like the Dock's contextual commands or doc area... (although they could definitely use some beefing up. Win7 looks like it's taking this further, which is good.)
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- The mouse-over preview functionality is a little more useful. (close windows from mouseover, etc…)
I do like that, and wish that the Dock had stronger window management from the Dock.
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The Windows 7 taskbar an evolution of existing ideas. Saying it's an "obvious functional copy" shows that eitherr you haven't used the Windows 7 taskbar or you haven't bothered paying attention to it beyond "big icon and translucent means they copied it from Apple".
Hardly. It's an evolution, but it's convergent evolution. I think the point at which people started saying 'copy' was the flip from the 25 year old window-centric default to an app-centric default. XP let you lump windows together, but it was a special case. They've turned the corner to a new way of looking at it, but have strengthened the window management over what the Dock provides, as part of the original intent. Which is good, IMO, it keeps Cupertino on its toes.
In the limit where Windows is improved to become exactly like Leopard, Microsoft basically eliminates the Apple threat.
Problem is, Windows will never become Leopard and will always lag way behind unless they start from scratch and dedicate 10 years of development for it and then pay the lawsuit settlement that will follow: not going to happen.
In the limit where Windows is improved to become exactly like Leopard, Microsoft basically eliminates the Apple threat.
Problem is, Windows will never become Leopard and will always lag way behind unless they start from scratch and dedicate 10 years of development for it and then pay the lawsuit settlement that will follow: not going to happen.
Well, I downloaded Sun's Virtual Box, installed it tonight and then installed Windows 7 beta. And the OP is right, the taskbar does resemble the dock.
Anyway, the proper name (as declared by no less an expert on everything than me) for the Taskbar-Dock bastard love-child is DockBar.
And I really like it, in no small part because they DID make it so much more app-centric like the OS X Dock. And with the window previews thing (a definite "neato!" moment) I think it becomes superior to the OS X Dock.
I hope Apple has something awesome planned for 10.6 (and 10.7) or this MacBook may be my last (not that I don't love it, but Apple's chosen pricing of these things seems to defy bear market gravity)
I am typing this on my Win7 computer while my OSX 10.5.6 MacBook Pro runs Citrix immediately to my left.
- They both reside along the bottom of the screen. (Where the Windows taskbar has always been, since back before Mac OS had no launcher/taskbar.)
- They both have an app-launch area on the left-hand side of the bar. (Windows had this first, but the Windows community isn't like the Apple community so you don't really hear "OH MY GOD APPLE THIEVES!" like you do "OH MY GOD MIKKKRO$HAFT!".)
- The icons on the taskbar give you feedback about the app. (Win taskbar used to just do this in the far right notification area, but that's shifted to the left-hand side as well now.)
So let's look at a hypothetical real-life scenario to see the differences between the two by opening 5 Word documents…
OSX Dock (files hidden)
- Not on the right-hand side to be browsed along with stored folders.
- No indication given about them when mousing over Word icon. Clicking on Word icon brings all of them to the forefront in a jumble.
OSX Dock (files minimized)
- All windows represented on right-hand side of Dock with little preview of what they look like.
- Filename given on mouseover.
Win7 Taskbar (files minimized, as there is no "hide feature" as far as I know)
- All minimized windows hidden under Word icon which develops "stacked" appearance to indicated minimized windows.
- On mouseover of Word icon, preview windows of each document appear with filename.
- On mouseover of a preview window, the ability to close the file appears as well as everything else but that file "glassed" out on the desktop itself. (focus window remains highlighted)
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And now, the Win7 Taskbar is, on the surface, app-centric, and secondarily window-centric. I think it's a good move, and solves some of the issues I've long had with the Taskbar, but it also does rather open them up to claims of copying the Dock, since it now *functionally* is much closer in operation.
The Windows taskbar used to be more like the dock in that it had an app launching area to the left (quick launch) and a window storage area on the right. It is less like the Apple dock now.
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- Application-specific windows are grouped under a big icon instead of spread out. (application-specific window grouping existed since XP (perhaps earlier))
Like the Dock has been since 10.0...
No. When you minimize a window in OSX it just sits on the right-hand side of the Dock independent of its parent app's launch icon on the left.
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Like the Dock's contextual commands or doc area
Not really like that, no. It all resides under the app launch icon. It doesn't exist anywhere on the taskbar until you right-click (an unfair advantage Windows has, I'll grant you, is a second mouse button).
It's a different way of working. It's a different design and UI philosophy. Hence: not a functional copy. Once you fall to saying "Well it's sort of kind of like…" then you've conceded the asinine concept of a "direct functional copy".
You simply want to believe Microsoft copied Apple so you're backfilling with reasons that don't meet the accusation.
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I think the point at which people started saying 'copy' was the flip from the 25 year old window-centric default to an app-centric default.
Then what do you call minimizing windows to the right-hand side of the Dock, just like had been happening in the Windows UI since Windows 95?
When Apple beefs up mouseover-capabilities on the Dock, allowing commands to be performed from the mouseover windows, will it be copying Microsoft or will Apple simply be improving its user experience by making obvious evolutionary UI decisions based on their own use of their own operating system?
Or how about when Apple offers up a tool like Windows Live Mesh whereby Mac users synchronize a single folder, for free, across multiple machines across multiple platforms ensuring that they have the same files at work that they have at hom? Will they be copying Microsoft or will it just be something obvious that people would want?
As I said earlier in the thread, this "copying" bullshit is just a conceit of the weak.
Tauron:
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In the limit where Windows is improved to become exactly like Leopard, Microsoft basically eliminates the Apple threat.
Have you used Windows 7 and Mac OSX 10.5?
I can't imagine how anyone who has used to two would say they are more alike than Vista and OSX 10.2 or XP and OSX 10.0. It's a self-perpetuating meme that Apple users find amusing but has no real basis in reality.
You simply want to believe Microsoft copied Apple so you're backfilling with reasons that don't meet the accusation.
And this is where pretty much every one of our discussions ends. You ascribe intent that isn't there, and position yourself accordingly. Interesting discussion it was, more's the pity. You corrected some of my mis-statements, which is great, but... I'm not taking the ride with you this time. Enjoy.
No, not the Shelf in the pre-OPENSTEP 4.0 betas, the all new singing dancing UI item named Shelf in the OPENSTEP 4.0 beta. (That's why I specifically mentioned that build - and yeah, a lot of NeXTies were confused too. It was bad naming.)
It was very much an application manager, with secondary access to windows, like the applications section of the Dock is now.
It never made it to production - when OPENSTEP 4.0 was finally shipped, it had been removed.
As I recall, the new UI in the NeXTSTEP 4 beta caused much consternation and complaining. It was a very controversial change at the time on the order of OS 9 to OS X, but NeXT never went through it as they were on their way out of the OS business when OPENSTEP was announced. In the end, I think it was good it was scrapped and gutted as the implementation would never have worked for many window scenarios and they would have had to implemented Expose and Spaces to solve window navigation too.
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And now, the Win7 Taskbar is, on the surface, app-centric, and secondarily window-centric. I think it's a good move, and solves some of the issues I've long had with the Taskbar, but it also does rather open them up to claims of copying the Dock, since it now *functionally* is much closer in operation.
I agree with groverat here. It's really neither here nor there as there is little solace in having the moral high ground in business. You do what you need to do to win within the bounds of market, and it appears copying UI conventions don't really hurt a business in the eyes of the consumer or the market. Ie, it's within bounds.
On the other hand, it's really about time for Apple to basically scrap the OS X UI and start over and design a GUI for large monitors, multiple monitors, and the multitudes of windows and applications these days. Another redo on file management too. They've don't a lot with iLfe, iWork and Pro apps. They just need to put it all together. There are too many GUI conventions based on the original Macintosh 512x384/800x600/1024x768 small screen sizes. With the 24" monitors becoming common, 1920x1200 in many places, 1280x800 pretty much the minimum, and multiple monitors all over the place, many things are becoming cumbersome. The app menus residing in the menubar is especially cumbersome on multiple monitors. I think palette interfaces are cumbersome and distracting. File management is a bear. There's got to be a better way, and searching (spotlight, google desktop, etc) aint it. On the other hand, things like Expose, Spaces, and Time Machien are nice implementations that should be kept. They've been trying, but not with the fervor they had back in the day.
As for Windows 7, it appears MS has rightfully ended its sidebar experiment and have gone back to slow evolution with the taskbar. That's fine. The big deal with Win 7 will it being less of a resource hog. They can copy all they want with the OS X dock if need be. There's so much inertia with the meme that MS copies Apple that people see it when it really isn't there or even that bad. If you want to look at bad, look at the Palm Pre.
There's got to be a better way, and searching (spotlight, google desktop, etc) aint it.
I disagree with the idea that there is “a way”. You’ve got to account for different types of user. Some will embrace the whole “cloud” style of file management and will happily Spotlight/WDS their way through life, paying little attention to filenames and nested folders. Others (like me), will spend a great deal of time in the file management system organizing things and sorting them for ease-of-access and ease-of-backup.
A winning file management OS will be simple/powerful enough for the anal user and accommodating enough for the casual file manager. Spotlight/WDS is essential. A good file manager is also essential. Unfortunately, the Finder sucks and has since OSX 10.0.
Neither file system is terribly helpful for file management. The best solution (in my opinion) for both OSsin a multi-user environment are folders in the root (“Hard Drive:Music” or “C\Music”).
The Dock’s overwhelming girth is a big problem for widescreen monitors. There’s a low bang:buck ratio as far as its size and utility. At least that’s my experience on my progression of widescreen 15” Apple laptops (from Powerbook G4 to MacBook Pro). I’m never happy with its size and magnification or how applications and their windows treat it. On the other hand, the Windows taskbar just disappears in daily use. (All of this is subjective user testimony and not meant as anything more.)
As I recall, the new UI in the NeXTSTEP 4 beta caused much consternation and complaining. It was a very controversial change at the time on the order of OS 9 to OS X, but NeXT never went through it as they were on their way out of the OS business when OPENSTEP was announced. In the end, I think it was good it was scrapped and gutted as the implementation would never have worked for many window scenarios and they would have had to implemented Expose and Spaces to solve window navigation too.
Can't argue with that, it felt like a kinda klunky version of an actual UI feature, like they knew, sort of, where they wanted to take it, but hadn't really thought it through. It was, however, the roots of the Dock, regardless of how unrefined.
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I agree with groverat here. It's really neither here nor there as there is little solace in having the moral high ground in business. You do what you need to do to win within the bounds of market, and it appears copying UI conventions don't really hurt a business in the eyes of the consumer or the market. Ie, it's within bounds.
Sure. That was never in contention.
Heck, the idea that the Win7 taskbar is 100% a direct ripoff is, IMO, just plain wrong... but I can see how folks who are getting their info secondhand from blogs, etc, might think it is, without necessarily being Mac zealots or Appologists. There are some significant shifts in it that make it more Dock-*like*, which when fed through the blogosphere echo chamber can get amplified beyond reasonableness. The devil's in the details, of course, and in that it seems they've really done some nice work with it, giving Apple a much needed push. The more details I hear, the more impressed I am. I'm actually looking forward to taking it out for a test drive, which is a first in a long time for Windows.
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On the other hand, it's really about time for Apple to basically scrap the OS X UI and start over and design a GUI for large monitors, multiple monitors, and the multitudes of windows and applications these days. Another redo on file management too. They've don't a lot with iLfe, iWork and Pro apps. They just need to put it all together. There are too many GUI conventions based on the original Macintosh 512x384/800x600/1024x768 small screen sizes. With the 24" monitors becoming common, 1920x1200 in many places, 1280x800 pretty much the minimum, and multiple monitors all over the place, many things are becoming cumbersome. The app menus residing in the menubar is especially cumbersome on multiple monitors. I think palette interfaces are cumbersome and distracting. File management is a bear. There's got to be a better way, and searching (spotlight, google desktop, etc) aint it. On the other hand, things like Expose, Spaces, and Time Machien are nice implementations that should be kept. They've been trying, but not with the fervor they had back in the day.
Agreed completely. Right now they have a lot of good pieces, but no overall coherence. I'm still a fan of NeXT's instant menubar, rather the ultimate non-contextual contextual menu. I don't think it would fly now though, it'd be seen as too confusing.
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As for Windows 7, it appears MS has rightfully ended its sidebar experiment and have gone back to slow evolution with the taskbar. That's fine. The big deal with Win 7 will it being less of a resource hog. They can copy all they want with the OS X dock if need be. There's so much inertia with the meme that MS copies Apple that people see it when it really isn't there or even that bad. If you want to look at bad, look at the Palm Pre.
Comments
Whatever, 'rat. If you can find an earlier example of the NeXT Shelf than NeXT, I'm all ears, it would be an interesting bit of data. If you can't, then it's pretty clear what the origination point was.
How about Windows 1.0?
And even now comparisons with the NeXT shelf are unwarranted, because the NeXT shelf was a file management tool, not a window management tool (like the Windows taskbar). You could drag files from one location to the shelf as a temporary holding pen before moving that file somewhere else (or simply leaving it there for quick access). The Windows 7 taskbar doesn't do that, it has other ways of handling it (pinning to jump lists) and the ability to cut/copy/paste files.
With minor variations, such as thumbnails, the new Win 7 taskbar looks and acts an awful lot like the Dock. Which is fine, ideas are copied all the time... but to claim it's ZOMG innovative is pretty weak sauce. It's an obvious functional copy, with some refinements, and some throwbacks.
Not once have I claimed that the Windows 7 taskbar is "ZOMG innovative" or even "innovative sans acronym". Did you read this thread? Because I'm really curious as to where I am supposed to have lauded Microsoft's originality.
The Windows 7 taskbar is only slightly different from the Vista taskbar.
- Application-specific windows are grouped under a big icon instead of spread out. (application-specific window grouping existed since XP (perhaps earlier))
- There are handy "jump lists" that you can pin often-used documents to or tie often-used commands to (like controls for media player apps).
- The mouse-over preview functionality is a little more useful. (close windows from mouseover, etc…)
The Windows 7 taskbar an evolution of existing ideas. Saying it's an "obvious functional copy" shows that eitherr you haven't used the Windows 7 taskbar or you haven't bothered paying attention to it beyond "big icon and translucent means they copied it from Apple".
How about Windows 1.0?
And even now comparisons with the NeXT shelf are unwarranted, because the NeXT shelf was a file management tool, not a window management tool (like the Windows taskbar). You could drag files from one location to the shelf as a temporary holding pen before moving that file somewhere else (or simply leaving it there for quick access). The Windows 7 taskbar doesn't do that, it has other ways of handling it (pinning to jump lists) and the ability to cut/copy/paste files.
Not once have I claimed that the Windows 7 taskbar is "ZOMG innovative" or even "innovative sans acronym". Did you read this thread? Because I'm really curious as to where I am supposed to have lauded Microsoft's originality.
The Windows 7 taskbar is only slightly different from the Vista taskbar.
- Application-specific windows are grouped under a big icon instead of spread out. (application-specific window grouping existed since XP (perhaps earlier))
- There are handy "jump lists" that you can pin often-used documents to or tie often-used commands to (like controls for media player apps).
- The mouse-over preview functionality is a little more useful. (close windows from mouseover, etc…)
The Windows 7 taskbar an evolution of existing ideas. Saying it's an "obvious functional copy" shows that eitherr you haven't used the Windows 7 taskbar or you haven't bothered paying attention to it beyond "big icon and translucent means they copied it from Apple".
Where did you get that "screenshot" of Windows 1.0? That's not what the standard screen looked like. Windows did not have a taskbar (and Start menu) until Windows 95.
You can see more Windows 1.0 screenshots here, many screenshots with the early taskbar.
If you're interested in reading about the evolution of the Windows taskbar, read about it here.
Relevant excerpt:
Windows 1.0 supported zoomed (full-screen), tiled and icon (minimized) windows. Since there was no support for overlapping [that big debate between charless and billg, Steven], a dedicated portion of the desktop was kept visible at the bottom of the screen to surface non-tiled and non-zoomed windows. By minimizing a window or dragging it to the bottom of the screen, the person was able to populate this rudimentary taskbar with a large icon corresponding to the running window. She could then get back to this window by clicking or dragging this icon to the desktop. As simple as this mechanism seems today, it cemented an important concept that is with us even in Windows 7—when people switch between tasks, they are really switching between windows. Although it took Windows 95 to introduce a mature taskbar with launching, switching and notification functionality, the experience of surfacing and switching between windows via a dedicated region at the bottom of the screen is as ancient as Windows 1.0.
This is important for people to remember, the fundamental difference in focus between Windows and MacOS: Windows is window-centric and MacOS is app-centric.
The idea that Microsoft software engineers sit around and wonder how they can copy Apple is ridiculous, and vice versa. These companies are not ripping each other off, no matter how much the weaker of the two (Apple and its fans) may want to cling to the idea to give themselves some kind of credibility in the face of a perceived status. There's a real short-man syndrome among self-identified Apple loyalists, which is absolutely ridiculous because they have no real stake in any perceived debate. If Windows gets better (which it inarguably has) that benefits everyone, and the same goes for OSX (although to a much lesser extent due to Apple's paltry market share).
Give me a mouse and keyboard and I prefer Windows. Give me a laptop and I prefer Mac OSX. I feel hampered by OSX on a desktop machine and I feel overwhelmed by Windows on a laptop. I like both operating systems, and both are improving a great deal. To imagine that they are stealing from each other gives neither any credit. Both companies have brilliant software engineers.
The idea that Microsoft software engineers sit around and wonder how they can copy Apple is ridiculous, and vice versa. These companies are not ripping each other off, no matter how much the weaker of the two (Apple and its fans) may want to cling to the idea to give themselves some kind of credibility in the face of a perceived status.
....To imagine that they are stealing from each other gives neither any credit. Both companies have brilliant software engineers.
What about Vista's trash c-*err* recycle bin? Are you trying to tell me that's not a knock-off?
What you're saying is true for many things, but there's no question Windows has followed Apples lead in a number of design and functional areas.
Expose, for example, is clearly something where Apple led and Windows followed.
Expose, for example, is clearly something where Apple led and Windows followed.
Can you be more specific?
How about Windows 1.0?
And even now comparisons with the NeXT shelf are unwarranted, because the NeXT shelf was a file management tool, not a window management tool (like the Windows taskbar). You could drag files from one location to the shelf as a temporary holding pen before moving that file somewhere else (or simply leaving it there for quick access). The Windows 7 taskbar doesn't do that, it has other ways of handling it (pinning to jump lists) and the ability to cut/copy/paste files.
No, not the Shelf in the pre-OPENSTEP 4.0 betas, the all new singing dancing UI item named Shelf in the OPENSTEP 4.0 beta. (That's why I specifically mentioned that build - and yeah, a lot of NeXTies were confused too. It was bad naming.)
It was very much an application manager, with secondary access to windows, like the applications section of the Dock is now.
It never made it to production - when OPENSTEP 4.0 was finally shipped, it had been removed.
Interesting screenshot, thanks, but like you said, that's a window manager, like the Taskbar - one icon per window. Windows is (not surprisingly with the name
And now, the Win7 Taskbar is, on the surface, app-centric, and secondarily window-centric. I think it's a good move, and solves some of the issues I've long had with the Taskbar, but it also does rather open them up to claims of copying the Dock, since it now *functionally* is much closer in operation.
Again... *shrug*
Not once have I claimed that the Windows 7 taskbar is "ZOMG innovative" or even "innovative sans acronym". Did you read this thread? Because I'm really curious as to where I am supposed to have lauded Microsoft's originality.
I didn't say you did - but you did come down on folks here for saying it was a close functional copy of the Dock... which it is. It had a different origin, but an app-centric icon strip is what it's ending up on. The origins are more or less irrelevant, if it quacks like a Dock and looks like a Dock. (Sorry, couldn't resist.)
The Windows 7 taskbar is only slightly different from the Vista taskbar.
- Application-specific windows are grouped under a big icon instead of spread out. (application-specific window grouping existed since XP (perhaps earlier))
Like the Dock has been since 10.0...
- There are handy "jump lists" that you can pin often-used documents to or tie often-used commands to (like controls for media player apps).
Like the Dock's contextual commands or doc area... (although they could definitely use some beefing up. Win7 looks like it's taking this further, which is good.)
- The mouse-over preview functionality is a little more useful. (close windows from mouseover, etc…)
I do like that, and wish that the Dock had stronger window management from the Dock.
The Windows 7 taskbar an evolution of existing ideas. Saying it's an "obvious functional copy" shows that eitherr you haven't used the Windows 7 taskbar or you haven't bothered paying attention to it beyond "big icon and translucent means they copied it from Apple".
Hardly. It's an evolution, but it's convergent evolution. I think the point at which people started saying 'copy' was the flip from the 25 year old window-centric default to an app-centric default. XP let you lump windows together, but it was a special case. They've turned the corner to a new way of looking at it, but have strengthened the window management over what the Dock provides, as part of the original intent. Which is good, IMO, it keeps Cupertino on its toes.
In the limit where Windows is improved to become exactly like Leopard, Microsoft basically eliminates the Apple threat.
Problem is, Windows will never become Leopard and will always lag way behind unless they start from scratch and dedicate 10 years of development for it and then pay the lawsuit settlement that will follow: not going to happen.
What would you expect?
In the limit where Windows is improved to become exactly like Leopard, Microsoft basically eliminates the Apple threat.
Problem is, Windows will never become Leopard and will always lag way behind unless they start from scratch and dedicate 10 years of development for it and then pay the lawsuit settlement that will follow: not going to happen.
Well, I downloaded Sun's Virtual Box, installed it tonight and then installed Windows 7 beta. And the OP is right, the taskbar does resemble the dock.
It's a floor wax and a desert topping!
High five for the Chevy Chase-era SNL reference
OS Poop FTW!
Agreed.
Anyway, the proper name (as declared by no less an expert on everything than me) for the Taskbar-Dock bastard love-child is DockBar.
And I really like it, in no small part because they DID make it so much more app-centric like the OS X Dock. And with the window previews thing (a definite "neato!" moment) I think it becomes superior to the OS X Dock.
I hope Apple has something awesome planned for 10.6 (and 10.7) or this MacBook may be my last (not that I don't love it, but Apple's chosen pricing of these things seems to defy bear market gravity)
- They both reside along the bottom of the screen. (Where the Windows taskbar has always been, since back before Mac OS had no launcher/taskbar.)
- They both have an app-launch area on the left-hand side of the bar. (Windows had this first, but the Windows community isn't like the Apple community so you don't really hear "OH MY GOD APPLE THIEVES!" like you do "OH MY GOD MIKKKRO$HAFT!".)
- The icons on the taskbar give you feedback about the app. (Win taskbar used to just do this in the far right notification area, but that's shifted to the left-hand side as well now.)
So let's look at a hypothetical real-life scenario to see the differences between the two by opening 5 Word documents…
OSX Dock (files hidden)
- Not on the right-hand side to be browsed along with stored folders.
- No indication given about them when mousing over Word icon. Clicking on Word icon brings all of them to the forefront in a jumble.
OSX Dock (files minimized)
- All windows represented on right-hand side of Dock with little preview of what they look like.
- Filename given on mouseover.
Win7 Taskbar (files minimized, as there is no "hide feature" as far as I know)
- All minimized windows hidden under Word icon which develops "stacked" appearance to indicated minimized windows.
- On mouseover of Word icon, preview windows of each document appear with filename.
- On mouseover of a preview window, the ability to close the file appears as well as everything else but that file "glassed" out on the desktop itself. (focus window remains highlighted)
And now, the Win7 Taskbar is, on the surface, app-centric, and secondarily window-centric. I think it's a good move, and solves some of the issues I've long had with the Taskbar, but it also does rather open them up to claims of copying the Dock, since it now *functionally* is much closer in operation.
The Windows taskbar used to be more like the dock in that it had an app launching area to the left (quick launch) and a window storage area on the right. It is less like the Apple dock now.
- Application-specific windows are grouped under a big icon instead of spread out. (application-specific window grouping existed since XP (perhaps earlier))
Like the Dock has been since 10.0...
No. When you minimize a window in OSX it just sits on the right-hand side of the Dock independent of its parent app's launch icon on the left.
Like the Dock's contextual commands or doc area
Not really like that, no. It all resides under the app launch icon. It doesn't exist anywhere on the taskbar until you right-click (an unfair advantage Windows has, I'll grant you, is a second mouse button).
It's a different way of working. It's a different design and UI philosophy. Hence: not a functional copy. Once you fall to saying "Well it's sort of kind of like…" then you've conceded the asinine concept of a "direct functional copy".
You simply want to believe Microsoft copied Apple so you're backfilling with reasons that don't meet the accusation.
I think the point at which people started saying 'copy' was the flip from the 25 year old window-centric default to an app-centric default.
Then what do you call minimizing windows to the right-hand side of the Dock, just like had been happening in the Windows UI since Windows 95?
When Apple beefs up mouseover-capabilities on the Dock, allowing commands to be performed from the mouseover windows, will it be copying Microsoft or will Apple simply be improving its user experience by making obvious evolutionary UI decisions based on their own use of their own operating system?
Or how about when Apple offers up a tool like Windows Live Mesh whereby Mac users synchronize a single folder, for free, across multiple machines across multiple platforms ensuring that they have the same files at work that they have at hom? Will they be copying Microsoft or will it just be something obvious that people would want?
As I said earlier in the thread, this "copying" bullshit is just a conceit of the weak.
Tauron:
In the limit where Windows is improved to become exactly like Leopard, Microsoft basically eliminates the Apple threat.
Have you used Windows 7 and Mac OSX 10.5?
I can't imagine how anyone who has used to two would say they are more alike than Vista and OSX 10.2 or XP and OSX 10.0. It's a self-perpetuating meme that Apple users find amusing but has no real basis in reality.
You simply want to believe Microsoft copied Apple so you're backfilling with reasons that don't meet the accusation.
And this is where pretty much every one of our discussions ends. You ascribe intent that isn't there, and position yourself accordingly. Interesting discussion it was, more's the pity. You corrected some of my mis-statements, which is great, but... I'm not taking the ride with you this time. Enjoy.
No, not the Shelf in the pre-OPENSTEP 4.0 betas, the all new singing dancing UI item named Shelf in the OPENSTEP 4.0 beta. (That's why I specifically mentioned that build - and yeah, a lot of NeXTies were confused too. It was bad naming.)
It was very much an application manager, with secondary access to windows, like the applications section of the Dock is now.
It never made it to production - when OPENSTEP 4.0 was finally shipped, it had been removed.
Well, here is a screenshot.
As I recall, the new UI in the NeXTSTEP 4 beta caused much consternation and complaining. It was a very controversial change at the time on the order of OS 9 to OS X, but NeXT never went through it as they were on their way out of the OS business when OPENSTEP was announced. In the end, I think it was good it was scrapped and gutted as the implementation would never have worked for many window scenarios and they would have had to implemented Expose and Spaces to solve window navigation too.
And now, the Win7 Taskbar is, on the surface, app-centric, and secondarily window-centric. I think it's a good move, and solves some of the issues I've long had with the Taskbar, but it also does rather open them up to claims of copying the Dock, since it now *functionally* is much closer in operation.
I agree with groverat here. It's really neither here nor there as there is little solace in having the moral high ground in business. You do what you need to do to win within the bounds of market, and it appears copying UI conventions don't really hurt a business in the eyes of the consumer or the market. Ie, it's within bounds.
On the other hand, it's really about time for Apple to basically scrap the OS X UI and start over and design a GUI for large monitors, multiple monitors, and the multitudes of windows and applications these days. Another redo on file management too. They've don't a lot with iLfe, iWork and Pro apps. They just need to put it all together. There are too many GUI conventions based on the original Macintosh 512x384/800x600/1024x768 small screen sizes. With the 24" monitors becoming common, 1920x1200 in many places, 1280x800 pretty much the minimum, and multiple monitors all over the place, many things are becoming cumbersome. The app menus residing in the menubar is especially cumbersome on multiple monitors. I think palette interfaces are cumbersome and distracting. File management is a bear. There's got to be a better way, and searching (spotlight, google desktop, etc) aint it. On the other hand, things like Expose, Spaces, and Time Machien are nice implementations that should be kept. They've been trying, but not with the fervor they had back in the day.
As for Windows 7, it appears MS has rightfully ended its sidebar experiment and have gone back to slow evolution with the taskbar. That's fine. The big deal with Win 7 will it being less of a resource hog. They can copy all they want with the OS X dock if need be. There's so much inertia with the meme that MS copies Apple that people see it when it really isn't there or even that bad. If you want to look at bad, look at the Palm Pre.
I love the aggrieved victim act.
THT:
There's got to be a better way, and searching (spotlight, google desktop, etc) aint it.
I disagree with the idea that there is “a way”. You’ve got to account for different types of user. Some will embrace the whole “cloud” style of file management and will happily Spotlight/WDS their way through life, paying little attention to filenames and nested folders. Others (like me), will spend a great deal of time in the file management system organizing things and sorting them for ease-of-access and ease-of-backup.
A winning file management OS will be simple/powerful enough for the anal user and accommodating enough for the casual file manager. Spotlight/WDS is essential. A good file manager is also essential. Unfortunately, the Finder sucks and has since OSX 10.0.
Neither file system is terribly helpful for file management. The best solution (in my opinion) for both OSsin a multi-user environment are folders in the root (“Hard Drive:Music” or “C
The Dock’s overwhelming girth is a big problem for widescreen monitors. There’s a low bang:buck ratio as far as its size and utility. At least that’s my experience on my progression of widescreen 15” Apple laptops (from Powerbook G4 to MacBook Pro). I’m never happy with its size and magnification or how applications and their windows treat it. On the other hand, the Windows taskbar just disappears in daily use. (All of this is subjective user testimony and not meant as anything more.)
Well, here is a screenshot.
As I recall, the new UI in the NeXTSTEP 4 beta caused much consternation and complaining. It was a very controversial change at the time on the order of OS 9 to OS X, but NeXT never went through it as they were on their way out of the OS business when OPENSTEP was announced. In the end, I think it was good it was scrapped and gutted as the implementation would never have worked for many window scenarios and they would have had to implemented Expose and Spaces to solve window navigation too.
Can't argue with that, it felt like a kinda klunky version of an actual UI feature, like they knew, sort of, where they wanted to take it, but hadn't really thought it through. It was, however, the roots of the Dock, regardless of how unrefined.
I agree with groverat here. It's really neither here nor there as there is little solace in having the moral high ground in business. You do what you need to do to win within the bounds of market, and it appears copying UI conventions don't really hurt a business in the eyes of the consumer or the market. Ie, it's within bounds.
Sure. That was never in contention.
Heck, the idea that the Win7 taskbar is 100% a direct ripoff is, IMO, just plain wrong... but I can see how folks who are getting their info secondhand from blogs, etc, might think it is, without necessarily being Mac zealots or Appologists. There are some significant shifts in it that make it more Dock-*like*, which when fed through the blogosphere echo chamber can get amplified beyond reasonableness. The devil's in the details, of course, and in that it seems they've really done some nice work with it, giving Apple a much needed push. The more details I hear, the more impressed I am. I'm actually looking forward to taking it out for a test drive, which is a first in a long time for Windows.
On the other hand, it's really about time for Apple to basically scrap the OS X UI and start over and design a GUI for large monitors, multiple monitors, and the multitudes of windows and applications these days. Another redo on file management too. They've don't a lot with iLfe, iWork and Pro apps. They just need to put it all together. There are too many GUI conventions based on the original Macintosh 512x384/800x600/1024x768 small screen sizes. With the 24" monitors becoming common, 1920x1200 in many places, 1280x800 pretty much the minimum, and multiple monitors all over the place, many things are becoming cumbersome. The app menus residing in the menubar is especially cumbersome on multiple monitors. I think palette interfaces are cumbersome and distracting. File management is a bear. There's got to be a better way, and searching (spotlight, google desktop, etc) aint it. On the other hand, things like Expose, Spaces, and Time Machien are nice implementations that should be kept. They've been trying, but not with the fervor they had back in the day.
Agreed completely. Right now they have a lot of good pieces, but no overall coherence. I'm still a fan of NeXT's instant menubar, rather the ultimate non-contextual contextual menu.
As for Windows 7, it appears MS has rightfully ended its sidebar experiment and have gone back to slow evolution with the taskbar. That's fine. The big deal with Win 7 will it being less of a resource hog. They can copy all they want with the OS X dock if need be. There's so much inertia with the meme that MS copies Apple that people see it when it really isn't there or even that bad. If you want to look at bad, look at the Palm Pre.
LOL True.
There are some significant shifts in it that make it more Dock-*like*…
Can you give me an example?
Can you give me an example?
The taskbar is now an application launcher not just a thing that shows what apps are open. Does that work for you?
The taskbar is now an application launcher not just a thing that shows what apps are open. Does that work for you?
No, because the taskbar has been an app launcher since Windows 95 and the introduction of the quick launch toolbar.
No, because the taskbar has been an app launcher since Windows 95 and the introduction of the quick launch toolbar.
What's the quick launch toolbar?
Never mind, You are correct.
WinXP:
WinVista (with large icons enabled):
Why do people who don't use Windows pretend to know about Windows?