Yeah! And goddamnit, I want a MIDI port! And a VGA port! Who knows? I might want to take it to presentations where the projector only has that! YOU NEVER KNOW! And what's with this USB shit? Haven't they heard of PS/2?? Jesus christ on a stick, it's *ONLY* the most common port out there! And goddammit, WHEN are they going to finally include a fscking Fibre Channel port?? I mean come on, slap 800 minis into a server room, and what are you going to hook them up with? FC is the *ONLY* reasonable choice at that scale! It's *ridiculous* that Apple has their head so far up their butts that they can't see that PEOPLE USE THEM LIKE THIS!
Add the HDMI port and let Apple f-off and let us use the damn computer where the hell we want to. It's only a port, and they can add it on, we'll pay the extra $10, or whatever the heck the cost will be if any. Sick of it.
So you want Mini-dp, Mini-DVI and HDMI? You can't have mini-DVI only because Apple's new displays are Mini-dp. You can't not have an analog compatible connector so you need Mini-DVI. This basically means that HDMI is additional to those other ports. Given that you will soon get Mini-dp to HDMI adaptors, I don't see the need for the extra port.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland
And yes, I think the mini video is fake, that's my viewpoint.
The guy Monthy is avoiding disclosing info about it over at Macrumors.com:
but it's still more plausible than believing he drilled it himself. After all, we're not talking about drilling 3 holes. He'd have to fill in the plastic where the DVI port used to be without any seams. Since it's one piece of plastic, the only other option is for him to get the exact same moulding for the Mini case and recreate all the fins etc.
Trouble is, he says that the reason he posted it was so people would wait for the release as it was worth waiting for and that was only 3 or 4 days ago. He could mean to wait until next week but he could be hinting at a longer wait. Maybe an event in late March or early April that will launch all the 3 desktops together.
This moves into the end of Q1 territory. I really don't want to see a simultaneous Snow Leopard and desktop launch if it means waiting another month for the refresh. Bring the updates now and leave SL until June.
What Apple may be thinking is that they need to get this OS in use and if they don't bundle the new systems with it at this refresh, people might not upgrade to it for a while. Maybe not at all. They like to force updates on people so that they can make claims about how many people use their latest system.
I would hope that SL will be worth upgrading to on its own but average consumers won't see the obvious benefits. The next laptop upgrade may not come until mobile Nehalem, the next mac Pro next year, the next iMac and Mini, the same as the laptops at best. This could mean 8 months or so without new hardware and people sticking to Leopard fearing the plunge to full 64-bit and the $129 charge and upgrade hassle.
This works well for their all-Nvidia marketing as the launch of these products will mean the entire lineup is Nvidia-only. Then this same system will be used to revolutionize the iphone in June with the Nvidia Tegra and ATV with Ion where both systems may run the same games delivered by ITMS.
Then Apple buys Nvidia and lives up to its incorrect reputation as being the best platform for graphics in the context of 3D graphics and not DTP, which the phrase actually means.
So the question is... is the mini better off with a theoretically superior port for computing, or a port that people use in their living rooms today? A very valid trade-off to analyze for sure. Especially now that computer-TV convergence is close to fruition. I'll admit that this all comes back to how minis are actually used by consumers.
A couple minor asides: Complaining about licensing seems a bit of a stretch when that licensing is 4 cents per port. And the mini most certainly does have the processing power to output the enhanced color space and high bit-rate audio of blu-ray media. But admittedly this is doesn't matter until equipped with a blu-ray drive.
I think that is Kickaha's point. The mini is predominantly used as a computer. The niche is screaming about HDMI ports though Apple has already reduced the need for HDMI with MDP and will completely eradicate the needs once they start piping LPCM over the MDP connection. The licensing is not trivial. There is an annual fee on top of the per device fees (which are variable)
HDMI Adopters pay an annual fee of ten thousand dollars (US$10,000). The annual fee is due upon the execution of the Adopter Agreement, and must be paid on the anniversary of this date each year thereafter. Note that HDMI does provide an alternative annual fee payment for small-volume manufacturers (10,000 units or less). Please see Attachment B of the Adopter Agreement for details.
Royalty
HDMI royalty rates are as follows:
For each end-user Licensed Product, fifteen cents (US$0.15) per unit sold.
If the Adopter reasonably uses the HDMI logo on the product and promotional materials, then the rate drops to five cents (US$0.05) per unit sold.
If the Adopter implements HDCP content protection as set forth in the HDMI Specification, then the royalty rate is further reduced by one cent (US$0.01) per unit sold, for a lowest rate of four cents (US$0.04) per unit. Adopters must license HDCP separately from Digital Content Protection, LLC, an Intel subsidiary. Please see www.digital-cp.com for details.
Apple doesn't really like to kowtow to the "insert my kewl logo on ur product doood" to save money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland
Add the HDMI port and let Apple f-off and let us use the damn computer where the hell we want to. It's only a port, and they can add it on, we'll pay the extra $10, or whatever the heck the cost will be if any. Sick of it.
And yes, I think the mini video is fake, that's my viewpoint.
The niche is screaming about HDMI ports though Apple has already reduced the need for HDMI with MDP and will completely eradicate the needs once they start piping LPCM over the MDP connection. The licensing is not trivial. There is an annual fee on top of the per device fees (which are variable)
...
I don't want to pay for your HTPC dreams man.
I generally agree but wouldn't go so far as to call HDMI a niche technology. If anything, display port is the niche. Pretty much nobody has DP capable displays while a massive percentage of homes already have HDMI equipped displays.
I'm still of the opinion that licensing costs are trivial. Even $50 VCRs come with HDMI.
Certainly HDMI is an added cost. I just feel that more people would use an HDMI port than would use a DP port.
So while you rightfully don't want to pay for the "HTPC dreams" of others. There are probably more of those others who don't want to pay for your "potentially superior interconnect of the future dreams".
I generally agree but wouldn't go so far as to call HDMI a niche technology. If anything, display port is the niche. Pretty much nobody has DP capable displays while a massive percentage of homes already have HDMI equipped displays.
I *think* what he meant (and please correct me if I'm wrong here) is that HDMI is a niche technology - but that it's a niche with a huge market. DP is a wide technology that hasn't been widely marketed. Make sense? Maybe? Oh come on, even a little? I mean, you can talk about niche as the size of the market, or the size of the application potential.
Quote:
I'm still of the opinion that licensing costs are trivial. Even $50 VCRs come with HDMI.
Certainly HDMI is an added cost. I just feel that more people would use an HDMI port than would use a DP port.
Right now, today? Probably. Having a port set that is both backward *AND* forward compatible is golden though. Seriously, how often does that happen in this industry? And given the absolute insanity that we've had to put up with in display connectors, this is just a frickin' dream in comparison.
Quote:
So while you rightfully don't want to pay for the "HTPC dreams" of others. There are probably more of those others who don't want to pay for your "potentially superior interconnect of the future dreams".
I generally agree but wouldn't go so far as to call HDMI a niche technology. If anything, display port is the niche. Pretty much nobody has DP capable displays while a massive percentage of homes already have HDMI equipped displays.
I'm still of the opinion that licensing costs are trivial. Even $50 VCRs come with HDMI.
Certainly HDMI is an added cost. I just feel that more people would use an HDMI port than would use a DP port.
So while you rightfully don't want to pay for the "HTPC dreams" of others. There are probably more of those others who don't want to pay for your "potentially superior interconnect of the future dreams".
Sorry I didn't clarify myself. I think those who are looking at the mini for HTPC application are a niche. My 32" HDTV was $650 and a 32" today is much cheaper. I just don't see many people buying a $600 computer to hook to a $600 HDTV.
They aren't paying for DisplayPort. It's license free, there's literally few reasons why DP shouldn't eradicate VGA ports on computers as well as HDTV. My preferred solution doesn't raise licensing costs one bit and with Apple, Dell and Lenovo beginning to add DP ports on their computers economies of scale will bring component costs for DP under HDMI
Apple isn't adverse to putting the right port on the right device.
Computers - MDP
Apple TV- HDMI
Makes clear sense. I look forward to TV offering both. Let's hope the Vizio, LG, Samsung and Sony's of the world move from VGA on their HDTV to DisplayPort for computer access.
I will say that I'm more than disappointed at the "lie by omission" that many vendors are doing with DisplayPort. I know that audio support is "optional" per the spec but people are getting burned.
I'm waiting on clarification from our engineers, they say the limitation is that most video cards don't support sound through DisplayPort they are going to do some tests and let me know what the limitations are.
It would have been a tad more ethical to simply state clearly that audio support in DP isn't there and let us know if it could be enabled in the future or not. Clearly the links between today's computer audio subsystem and DisplayPort is lagging.
Seriously though. The last thing most people want is another type of display connector. And I would characterize HDMI as more than future proof enough for a Mac mini. Are people really clamoring for more functionality than offered by HDMI? (an honest question)
As for DP being free...
It probably costs Apple more to put a DP connector in a computer than it does HDMI, even with the licensing fee. That's just a guess though. The guess being that the engineering required to bring a nearly bleeding edge technology to a consumer product is higher than that of putting in a more known technology, despite that older technology having licensing fees.
Seriously though. The last thing most people want is another type of display connector. And I would characterize HDMI as more than future proof enough for a Mac mini. Are people really clamoring for more functionality than offered by HDMI? (an honest question)
As for DP being free...
It probably costs Apple more to put a DP connector in a computer than it does HDMI, even with the licensing fee. That's just a guess though. The guess being that the engineering required to bring a nearly bleeding edge technology to a consumer product is higher than that of putting in a more known technology, despite that older technology having licensing fees.
A single unified connector is certainly a holy grail. The issue with HDMI though is that it excels at handling video data with an acceptable amount of color fidelity. Computers though are moving towards more bits per pixel as well as increasing resolution which is going to strain HDMI. As Kickaha says we are about as close as we can get with DP and HDMI interoperability.
I think the one thing that will certainly push DP over HDMI is going to be single cable daisychaining. Having a dual monitor mini setup would be in many ways superior to an iMac.
Right now, today? Probably. Having a port set that is both backward *AND* forward compatible is golden though. Seriously, how often does that happen in this industry? And given the absolute insanity that we've had to put up with in display connectors, this is just a frickin' dream in comparison.
Sounds great indeed...
If display port were actually compatible.
Not that HDMI is a cake walk. Handshake issues and the differing feature sets of HDMI revisions are pretty maddening.
That's a very nice mock up. I wouldn't mind seeing a Mini with that look, that was actually the look i have been hoping for since the iMacs went Aluminum.
Despite my preference for HDMI over DP on computers built today, I'm still quite interested in the new mini. I'd sell my PS3 and buy a mini the day it is available with a blu-ray player. Yep, I'm one of those people that want to hook the mini up to a TV. As of yet I'm still searching for a hassle free htpc or media streaming box with a blu-ray drive. We're soooo close but nobody has quite got it right yet. Maybe this year is the year.
I would have added an HDMI port by now just to treat the loyalists , but unfortunately I'd need to model it, and my ever-faithful and trusty companion seems to have finally karked it. (By 'companion' I mean my macbook pro by the way... )
A moment of silence, if you please.
Jimzip
edit: I've fixed the problem. She lives once more!
Comments
Add the HDMI port and let Apple f-off and let us use the damn computer where the hell we want to. It's only a port, and they can add it on, we'll pay the extra $10, or whatever the heck the cost will be if any. Sick of it.
So you want Mini-dp, Mini-DVI and HDMI? You can't have mini-DVI only because Apple's new displays are Mini-dp. You can't not have an analog compatible connector so you need Mini-DVI. This basically means that HDMI is additional to those other ports. Given that you will soon get Mini-dp to HDMI adaptors, I don't see the need for the extra port.
And yes, I think the mini video is fake, that's my viewpoint.
The guy Monthy is avoiding disclosing info about it over at Macrumors.com:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthre...=646851&page=9
but it's still more plausible than believing he drilled it himself. After all, we're not talking about drilling 3 holes. He'd have to fill in the plastic where the DVI port used to be without any seams. Since it's one piece of plastic, the only other option is for him to get the exact same moulding for the Mini case and recreate all the fins etc.
Trouble is, he says that the reason he posted it was so people would wait for the release as it was worth waiting for and that was only 3 or 4 days ago. He could mean to wait until next week but he could be hinting at a longer wait. Maybe an event in late March or early April that will launch all the 3 desktops together.
This moves into the end of Q1 territory. I really don't want to see a simultaneous Snow Leopard and desktop launch if it means waiting another month for the refresh. Bring the updates now and leave SL until June.
What Apple may be thinking is that they need to get this OS in use and if they don't bundle the new systems with it at this refresh, people might not upgrade to it for a while. Maybe not at all. They like to force updates on people so that they can make claims about how many people use their latest system.
I would hope that SL will be worth upgrading to on its own but average consumers won't see the obvious benefits. The next laptop upgrade may not come until mobile Nehalem, the next mac Pro next year, the next iMac and Mini, the same as the laptops at best. This could mean 8 months or so without new hardware and people sticking to Leopard fearing the plunge to full 64-bit and the $129 charge and upgrade hassle.
This works well for their all-Nvidia marketing as the launch of these products will mean the entire lineup is Nvidia-only. Then this same system will be used to revolutionize the iphone in June with the Nvidia Tegra and ATV with Ion where both systems may run the same games delivered by ITMS.
Then Apple buys Nvidia and lives up to its incorrect reputation as being the best platform for graphics in the context of 3D graphics and not DTP, which the phrase actually means.
So the question is... is the mini better off with a theoretically superior port for computing, or a port that people use in their living rooms today? A very valid trade-off to analyze for sure. Especially now that computer-TV convergence is close to fruition. I'll admit that this all comes back to how minis are actually used by consumers.
A couple minor asides: Complaining about licensing seems a bit of a stretch when that licensing is 4 cents per port. And the mini most certainly does have the processing power to output the enhanced color space and high bit-rate audio of blu-ray media. But admittedly this is doesn't matter until equipped with a blu-ray drive.
I think that is Kickaha's point. The mini is predominantly used as a computer. The niche is screaming about HDMI ports though Apple has already reduced the need for HDMI with MDP and will completely eradicate the needs once they start piping LPCM over the MDP connection. The licensing is not trivial. There is an annual fee on top of the per device fees (which are variable)
http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/terms.aspx
Quote:
Annual Fee
Quote:
HDMI Adopters pay an annual fee of ten thousand dollars (US$10,000). The annual fee is due upon the execution of the Adopter Agreement, and must be paid on the anniversary of this date each year thereafter. Note that HDMI does provide an alternative annual fee payment for small-volume manufacturers (10,000 units or less). Please see Attachment B of the Adopter Agreement for details.
Royalty
HDMI royalty rates are as follows:
For each end-user Licensed Product, fifteen cents (US$0.15) per unit sold.
If the Adopter reasonably uses the HDMI logo on the product and promotional materials, then the rate drops to five cents (US$0.05) per unit sold.
If the Adopter implements HDCP content protection as set forth in the HDMI Specification, then the royalty rate is further reduced by one cent (US$0.01) per unit sold, for a lowest rate of four cents (US$0.04) per unit. Adopters must license HDCP separately from Digital Content Protection, LLC, an Intel subsidiary. Please see www.digital-cp.com for details.
Apple doesn't really like to kowtow to the "insert my kewl logo on ur product doood" to save money.
Add the HDMI port and let Apple f-off and let us use the damn computer where the hell we want to. It's only a port, and they can add it on, we'll pay the extra $10, or whatever the heck the cost will be if any. Sick of it.
And yes, I think the mini video is fake, that's my viewpoint.
I don't want to pay for your HTPC dreams man.
The niche is screaming about HDMI ports though Apple has already reduced the need for HDMI with MDP and will completely eradicate the needs once they start piping LPCM over the MDP connection. The licensing is not trivial. There is an annual fee on top of the per device fees (which are variable)
...
I don't want to pay for your HTPC dreams man.
I generally agree but wouldn't go so far as to call HDMI a niche technology. If anything, display port is the niche. Pretty much nobody has DP capable displays while a massive percentage of homes already have HDMI equipped displays.
I'm still of the opinion that licensing costs are trivial. Even $50 VCRs come with HDMI.
Certainly HDMI is an added cost. I just feel that more people would use an HDMI port than would use a DP port.
So while you rightfully don't want to pay for the "HTPC dreams" of others. There are probably more of those others who don't want to pay for your "potentially superior interconnect of the future dreams".
I generally agree but wouldn't go so far as to call HDMI a niche technology. If anything, display port is the niche. Pretty much nobody has DP capable displays while a massive percentage of homes already have HDMI equipped displays.
I *think* what he meant (and please correct me if I'm wrong here) is that HDMI is a niche technology - but that it's a niche with a huge market. DP is a wide technology that hasn't been widely marketed. Make sense? Maybe? Oh come on, even a little?
I'm still of the opinion that licensing costs are trivial. Even $50 VCRs come with HDMI.
Certainly HDMI is an added cost. I just feel that more people would use an HDMI port than would use a DP port.
Right now, today? Probably. Having a port set that is both backward *AND* forward compatible is golden though. Seriously, how often does that happen in this industry? And given the absolute insanity that we've had to put up with in display connectors, this is just a frickin' dream in comparison.
So while you rightfully don't want to pay for the "HTPC dreams" of others. There are probably more of those others who don't want to pay for your "potentially superior interconnect of the future dreams".
Don't harsh our dream, you hater!
I generally agree but wouldn't go so far as to call HDMI a niche technology. If anything, display port is the niche. Pretty much nobody has DP capable displays while a massive percentage of homes already have HDMI equipped displays.
I'm still of the opinion that licensing costs are trivial. Even $50 VCRs come with HDMI.
Certainly HDMI is an added cost. I just feel that more people would use an HDMI port than would use a DP port.
So while you rightfully don't want to pay for the "HTPC dreams" of others. There are probably more of those others who don't want to pay for your "potentially superior interconnect of the future dreams".
Sorry I didn't clarify myself. I think those who are looking at the mini for HTPC application are a niche. My 32" HDTV was $650 and a 32" today is much cheaper. I just don't see many people buying a $600 computer to hook to a $600 HDTV.
They aren't paying for DisplayPort. It's license free, there's literally few reasons why DP shouldn't eradicate VGA ports on computers as well as HDTV. My preferred solution doesn't raise licensing costs one bit and with Apple, Dell and Lenovo beginning to add DP ports on their computers economies of scale will bring component costs for DP under HDMI
Apple isn't adverse to putting the right port on the right device.
Computers - MDP
Apple TV- HDMI
Makes clear sense. I look forward to TV offering both. Let's hope the Vizio, LG, Samsung and Sony's of the world move from VGA on their HDTV to DisplayPort for computer access.
I will say that I'm more than disappointed at the "lie by omission" that many vendors are doing with DisplayPort. I know that audio support is "optional" per the spec but people are getting burned.
http://forum.lenovo.com/lnv/board/me...cending&page=9
Lenovo laptops with Blu-ray and DP that cannot output the audio.
http://en.community.dell.com/forums/t/19246769.aspx
I'm waiting on clarification from our engineers, they say the limitation is that most video cards don't support sound through DisplayPort they are going to do some tests and let me know what the limitations are.
http://discussions.apple.com/thread....552&tstart=106
Cinema Display uses USB for audio.
It would have been a tad more ethical to simply state clearly that audio support in DP isn't there and let us know if it could be enabled in the future or not. Clearly the links between today's computer audio subsystem and DisplayPort is lagging.
Seriously though. The last thing most people want is another type of display connector. And I would characterize HDMI as more than future proof enough for a Mac mini. Are people really clamoring for more functionality than offered by HDMI? (an honest question)
As for DP being free...
It probably costs Apple more to put a DP connector in a computer than it does HDMI, even with the licensing fee. That's just a guess though. The guess being that the engineering required to bring a nearly bleeding edge technology to a consumer product is higher than that of putting in a more known technology, despite that older technology having licensing fees.
I look forward to TVs having only one, not both.
Seriously though. The last thing most people want is another type of display connector. And I would characterize HDMI as more than future proof enough for a Mac mini. Are people really clamoring for more functionality than offered by HDMI? (an honest question)
As for DP being free...
It probably costs Apple more to put a DP connector in a computer than it does HDMI, even with the licensing fee. That's just a guess though. The guess being that the engineering required to bring a nearly bleeding edge technology to a consumer product is higher than that of putting in a more known technology, despite that older technology having licensing fees.
A single unified connector is certainly a holy grail. The issue with HDMI though is that it excels at handling video data with an acceptable amount of color fidelity. Computers though are moving towards more bits per pixel as well as increasing resolution which is going to strain HDMI. As Kickaha says we are about as close as we can get with DP and HDMI interoperability.
I think the one thing that will certainly push DP over HDMI is going to be single cable daisychaining. Having a dual monitor mini setup would be in many ways superior to an iMac.
Right now, today? Probably. Having a port set that is both backward *AND* forward compatible is golden though. Seriously, how often does that happen in this industry? And given the absolute insanity that we've had to put up with in display connectors, this is just a frickin' dream in comparison.
Sounds great indeed...
If display port were actually compatible.
Not that HDMI is a cake walk. Handshake issues and the differing feature sets of HDMI revisions are pretty maddening.
Sounds great indeed...
If display port were actually compatible.
But... but... bunnies! Quick! LOOK OVER THERE!
No, seriously, what's not compatible about it? Just curious.
Not that HDMI is a cake walk. Handshake issues and the differing feature sets of HDMI revisions are pretty maddening.
Yeeeeeeah, it's like consumer AV adopted the one single worst part of IT standards - they can't keep still long enough to get nailed down by everyone.
Audio. (yet)
Despite my preference for HDMI over DP on computers built today, I'm still quite interested in the new mini. I'd sell my PS3 and buy a mini the day it is available with a blu-ray player. Yep, I'm one of those people that want to hook the mini up to a TV. As of yet I'm still searching for a hassle free htpc or media streaming box with a blu-ray drive. We're soooo close but nobody has quite got it right yet. Maybe this year is the year.
A moment of silence, if you please.
Jimzip
edit: I've fixed the problem. She lives once more!