You're saying there that every single iPhone user chooses the iPhone because of the data plan, and that's clearly nonsense! People buy them because of the cache of owning an Apple product, because the device looks sleek, because they like the interface, and for any number of other reasons. Subsequently, the data usage of these consumers is coincidental, yet it's all bundled in there with the overal statisitics.
For nearly every other phone on the market, data plans are optional. If you want an iPhone for any reason other than the data bundle, you are going to end up with the data bundle anyway. Subsequently, comparing that to devices where data is optional, is completely flawed.
So iphone is the only phone with mandatory data, I have the iphone on fido and if I wanted, I could remove the data, the iphone is not the only phone that comes with data, the phone companies want you to have data just like every other smartphone out there, why don't you go check the plans for blackberries.
So iphone is the only phone with mandatory data, I have the iphone on fido and if I wanted, I could remove the data, the iphone is not the only phone that comes with data, the phone companies want you to have data just like every other smartphone out there, why don't you go check the plans for blackberries.
It's one of a very small number of devices that come with a mandatory data plan. It pales into comparison with the number of smartphones that come without a data plan. Let's make data mandatory for all of those devices and then let's compare market share numbers.
It's one of a very small number of devices that come with a mandatory data plan. It pales into comparison with the number of smartphones that come without a data plan. Let's make data mandatory for all of those devices and then let's compare market share numbers.
Not all iphones come with mandatory data plans, with fido here in Canada you can cancel the data plan but if you use it, they'll charge you high rates, that's what I'll be doing soon since I mostly browse in wifi zones and don't see the need to be paying for data.
And for the people who want an iPhone, but not a data plan...? Again, you're suggesting that *everyone* who wants or has an iPhone also wants the data plan.
If the data plan is a requirement of the iPhone, what you want or don't want doesn't matter. You either take the deal or not.
Quote:
And you're argument about what the point would be of buying a smartphone without a data plan is just ridiculous and you know it. There are far far more people in this world who own smartphones without data plans than own smartphones with data plans. A smartphone still operates perfectly as a phone without a data plan.
You miss the finer point of what I said. I said many smartphones don't have WiFi, in that circumstance you are forced to add a data plan to fully use the phone.
Quote:
This notion that Apple has such-and-such share of mobile data is just like them saying 'OSX steals 100% of Apple computers OS share!!!', to which my response would be, well durrr, because you get OSX 'free' with your Apple computer purchase just the same as you get your 'free' data with iPhone purchase!
The percentage of the iPhone's web share against the over all share in the smartphone market, is something to be added to the equation.
Your comparison of the iPhone's web marketshare and OS X on the Mac, makes absolutely no sense.
Whether the data plan is mandatory is immaterial to the number of people who do use a data plan. Of that you have shown no proof that you know.
The mobile browser market will grow to 1.5 billion units worldwide by 2013, due to emerging browser software that can take advantage of the latest 'Web 2.0' technologies.
ABI Research, said in its new study, The Mobile Browser Market that smartphones incorporating browsers, which support the latest capabilities such as AJAX and RSS, as well as websites optimised for viewing on a mobile device would account for the majority of growth in this sector over the next five years.
It predicted that, while a large number of phones today still use browsers with very limited web browsing capabilities, growth in the open internet browser (OIB) segment for mobile will increase from 76 million in 2007 to nearly 700 million browsers delivered in 2013.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrochester
It's one of a very small number of devices that come with a mandatory data plan. It pales into comparison with the number of smartphones that come without a data plan. Let's make data mandatory for all of those devices and then let's compare market share numbers.
The phone would simply be a failure if users had to rely on WiFi.....
You're saying that as if there was no choice, you seem to be thinking of it in what I would call a false dilemma.
Under that line of reasoning, wouldn't the Touch would be a failure too? People make these bold claims about the iPhone, but the same logic falls apart in view of the Touch, and no one seems to be really addressing that logical disconnect when I point it out, as if it's too inconvenient to address.
I'm not saying that people shouldn't use cellular data, but I don't think it's everyone, and the iPhone is still a good media player with a good phone, and all these discussions seem to forget that.
Please play along with me for a paragraph. Let's say someone wants a phone. And they want a good music player. In one device. What would you suggest? I would say the iPhone but without the bundled data plan would be the ideal fit within that criteria.
Let's make data mandatory for all of those devices and then let's compare market share numbers.
Great idea!
Let's make wi-fi mandatory.
Let's make large bright screens mandatory.
Let's take away the data plans that people CHOSE to purchase.. and then .... let's make them mandatory.
Let's make 3G mandatory.
Let's make mobile browsers that DON'T SUCK mandatory.
and then let's compare market share numbers!
Look there's no subterfuge goin' on here. Apple just happens to be doing really well in another small corner of the tech world. Get over it and stop being a plonker.
I think you've confused the two versions of Safari.
The mobile version of Safari has begun to be a blip in desktop marketshare. Mobile Safari has .48% of desktop browser marketshare, roughly half the marketshare of Linux.
Desktop Safari is available on Windows and Mac. That version of Safari has about 10% of desktop marketshare. Mobile Safari on the iPhone is only available on the iPhone and iTouch.
You make it sound as though you don't succeed because you've created a better product, but only because others have failed to be as good as you.
Well if you succeed because it was a better product wouldn't Mac's have had more than 9% of the personal computing market? Don't disagree with me on this please, I assume we're all Mac users here.
I also feel Apple may have a hard time innovating upon a product so simple in design it could come back to bit them. If they introduce a physical keyboard it'd be to ugly and take away from the experience, they can't make the iPhone any bigger because it's pretty much one of the biggest on the market (surface area, not width) I love Apple, but I see Apple following a dark path into what lead Sony where they are today.
I hope they don't lose focus. Safari 4 beta is scary in the sense that Apple has released a product that isn't elegant or great. If this is what we have to expect, I'm not thrilled. Also not to get off topic but Snow Leopard as well, a less bloated more efficient faster version of 10.5? And we'll have to pay for it?! Apple has started treating their customers more and more like chumps, and it all started when iTools were taken away from us (anyone here ever used or remember iTools?).
Well if you succeed because it was a better product wouldn't Mac's have had more than 9% of the personal computing market? Don't disagree with me on this please, I assume we're all Mac users here.
Why can't he disagree with you? What does both of you owning Macs have to do with gaining asylum in a public forum? BTW, there are plenty of products that have <9% marketshare of an entire market but are considered the best in class and what the majority with they could be. In fact, it's the way most things are.
Quote:
II hope they don't lose focus. Safari 4 beta is scary in the sense that Apple has released a product that isn't elegant or great.
It's the best version of Safari to date. The engine is the fastest and the most standards compliant of any released browser available. All the new features can easily be reverted to the old if you don't care for them.
Quote:
Also not to get off topic but Snow Leopard as well, a less bloated more efficient faster version of 10.5? And we'll have to pay for it?! Apple has started treating their customers more and more like chumps,
What is is wrong with paying for a product that you want. Snow Leopard isn't just some extraneous files being cleaned out. It's the largest, most involved revision coming to OS X since it's inception. Not getting a bunch of flashy new features to play with doesn't mean that there isn't a great deal of work being done to the OS. I've been running benchmarks on each new SL revisions and it's getting faster and faster. But more importantly, if you don't think that the OS will be of enough value to pay $129 for it then you don't have to buy it. You can wait until 10.7 or never update as Leopard will be a viable OS for quite awhile.
Quote:
and it all started when iTools were taken away from us (anyone here ever used or remember iTools?).
iTools was Apple trying something out. Then they moved to .Mac and eventually to MobileMe. Each time the service has gotten better. I'e been a member since iTools and have no problem paying a small fee for what is included with the service. Trying to get all those services from other sources will cost more, be a convoluted hassle and not actually get me the convenience and simplistic usability that is included in MM for $60/year. Again, the features in MM certainly won't be valuable to all, but to those they do use them then $5-8.25/month is a worthwhile expense.
Let's take away the data plans that people CHOSE to purchase.. and then .... let's make them mandatory.
Let's make 3G mandatory.
Let's make mobile browsers that DON'T SUCK mandatory.
and then let's compare market share numbers!
Look there's no subterfuge goin' on here. Apple just happens to be doing really well in another small corner of the tech world. Get over it and stop being a plonker.
I'm not disagreeing about them doing really well but under no circumstances can you draw any conclusions about the device. The only conclusion you can draw is that they are doing as well as they are because the device comes with a data plan. People blow this sort of data way out of proportion even though it is inherantly biased from the outset.
from what angle you're seeing customers' choice of iPhone as a web browsing terminal. As such it is undoubtedly sporting very good (if not the best) usability features as compared to everything seriously positioned on the market.
Well if you succeed because it was a better product wouldn't Mac's have had more than 9% of the personal computing market? Don't disagree with me on this please, I assume we're all Mac users here.
This is a thread about the iPhone's mobile web use, I'm talking about the success of the iPhone not the Mac. But no you don't need the dominant marketshare to be successful.
Quote:
I also feel Apple may have a hard time innovating upon a product so simple in design it could come back to bit them.
There is a lot more that can be done with the iPhone. Its essentially a blank slate that can display a multitude of user interface.
Quote:
I hope they don't lose focus. Safari 4 beta is scary in the sense that Apple has released a product that isn't elegant or great. If this is what we have to expect, I'm not thrilled. Also not to get off topic but Snow Leopard as well, a less bloated more efficient faster version of 10.5? And we'll have to pay for it?! Apple has started treating their customers more and more like chumps, and it all started when iTools were taken away from us (anyone here ever used or remember iTools?).
This is simply all your opinion and not to be confused with fact.
You continue with this unsupported theory. You leave out several facts, you present no relevant facts in order to come to a simplistic conclusion that clearly does not fully explain the situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrochester
I'm not disagreeing about them doing really well but under no circumstances can you draw any conclusions about the device. The only conclusion you can draw is that they are doing as well as they are because the device comes with a data plan. People blow this sort of data way out of proportion even though it is inherantly biased from the outset.
The data plan was the reason I bought the iPhone, it's introduction into Australia brought about huge reductions in mobile data costs.
I've been using data on phone's for years before the iPhone 3G was announced I was going to get a Blackberry Bold or a Samsung i780.
WiFi here is crap, for example yesterday I had free WiFi access avalable from a local fastfood outlet.
I had to turn wifi access off it was so shit, I ran Speedtest on it, download was between 28 and 257k the upload test wouldn't even complete.
Despite using the net on phone's for many years I find the iPhone is the first one that I use as an alternative to a PC before I'd only use my phone when I was away from home.
Now most of the time I don't even boot up my PC, I just use my iPhone.
Comments
Oh yeah, I forgot, it does.
C.
You're saying there that every single iPhone user chooses the iPhone because of the data plan, and that's clearly nonsense! People buy them because of the cache of owning an Apple product, because the device looks sleek, because they like the interface, and for any number of other reasons. Subsequently, the data usage of these consumers is coincidental, yet it's all bundled in there with the overal statisitics.
For nearly every other phone on the market, data plans are optional. If you want an iPhone for any reason other than the data bundle, you are going to end up with the data bundle anyway. Subsequently, comparing that to devices where data is optional, is completely flawed.
So iphone is the only phone with mandatory data, I have the iphone on fido and if I wanted, I could remove the data, the iphone is not the only phone that comes with data, the phone companies want you to have data just like every other smartphone out there, why don't you go check the plans for blackberries.
If only the G1 came with a data plan - it would be as successful as the iPhone.
Oh yeah, I forgot, it does.
C.
If only the G1 came with a data plan - it would be as successful as the iPhone.
Oh yeah, I forgot, it does.
C.
Exactly, which supports my point that people buy these devices for more than just the data plan.
So iphone is the only phone with mandatory data, I have the iphone on fido and if I wanted, I could remove the data, the iphone is not the only phone that comes with data, the phone companies want you to have data just like every other smartphone out there, why don't you go check the plans for blackberries.
It's one of a very small number of devices that come with a mandatory data plan. It pales into comparison with the number of smartphones that come without a data plan. Let's make data mandatory for all of those devices and then let's compare market share numbers.
It's one of a very small number of devices that come with a mandatory data plan. It pales into comparison with the number of smartphones that come without a data plan. Let's make data mandatory for all of those devices and then let's compare market share numbers.
Not all iphones come with mandatory data plans, with fido here in Canada you can cancel the data plan but if you use it, they'll charge you high rates, that's what I'll be doing soon since I mostly browse in wifi zones and don't see the need to be paying for data.
And for the people who want an iPhone, but not a data plan...? Again, you're suggesting that *everyone* who wants or has an iPhone also wants the data plan.
If the data plan is a requirement of the iPhone, what you want or don't want doesn't matter. You either take the deal or not.
And you're argument about what the point would be of buying a smartphone without a data plan is just ridiculous and you know it. There are far far more people in this world who own smartphones without data plans than own smartphones with data plans. A smartphone still operates perfectly as a phone without a data plan.
You miss the finer point of what I said. I said many smartphones don't have WiFi, in that circumstance you are forced to add a data plan to fully use the phone.
This notion that Apple has such-and-such share of mobile data is just like them saying 'OSX steals 100% of Apple computers OS share!!!', to which my response would be, well durrr, because you get OSX 'free' with your Apple computer purchase just the same as you get your 'free' data with iPhone purchase!
The percentage of the iPhone's web share against the over all share in the smartphone market, is something to be added to the equation.
Your comparison of the iPhone's web marketshare and OS X on the Mac, makes absolutely no sense.
The mobile browser market will grow to 1.5 billion units worldwide by 2013, due to emerging browser software that can take advantage of the latest 'Web 2.0' technologies.
ABI Research, said in its new study, The Mobile Browser Market that smartphones incorporating browsers, which support the latest capabilities such as AJAX and RSS, as well as websites optimised for viewing on a mobile device would account for the majority of growth in this sector over the next five years.
It predicted that, while a large number of phones today still use browsers with very limited web browsing capabilities, growth in the open internet browser (OIB) segment for mobile will increase from 76 million in 2007 to nearly 700 million browsers delivered in 2013.
It's one of a very small number of devices that come with a mandatory data plan. It pales into comparison with the number of smartphones that come without a data plan. Let's make data mandatory for all of those devices and then let's compare market share numbers.
The phone would simply be a failure if users had to rely on WiFi.....
You're saying that as if there was no choice, you seem to be thinking of it in what I would call a false dilemma.
Under that line of reasoning, wouldn't the Touch would be a failure too? People make these bold claims about the iPhone, but the same logic falls apart in view of the Touch, and no one seems to be really addressing that logical disconnect when I point it out, as if it's too inconvenient to address.
I'm not saying that people shouldn't use cellular data, but I don't think it's everyone, and the iPhone is still a good media player with a good phone, and all these discussions seem to forget that.
Please play along with me for a paragraph. Let's say someone wants a phone. And they want a good music player. In one device. What would you suggest? I would say the iPhone but without the bundled data plan would be the ideal fit within that criteria.
Let's make data mandatory for all of those devices and then let's compare market share numbers.
Great idea!
Let's make wi-fi mandatory.
Let's make large bright screens mandatory.
Let's take away the data plans that people CHOSE to purchase.. and then .... let's make them mandatory.
Let's make 3G mandatory.
Let's make mobile browsers that DON'T SUCK mandatory.
and then let's compare market share numbers!
Look there's no subterfuge goin' on here. Apple just happens to be doing really well in another small corner of the tech world. Get over it and stop being a plonker.
I think you've confused the two versions of Safari.
The mobile version of Safari has begun to be a blip in desktop marketshare. Mobile Safari has .48% of desktop browser marketshare, roughly half the marketshare of Linux.
Desktop Safari is available on Windows and Mac. That version of Safari has about 10% of desktop marketshare. Mobile Safari on the iPhone is only available on the iPhone and iTouch.
You make it sound as though you don't succeed because you've created a better product, but only because others have failed to be as good as you.
Well if you succeed because it was a better product wouldn't Mac's have had more than 9% of the personal computing market? Don't disagree with me on this please, I assume we're all Mac users here.
I also feel Apple may have a hard time innovating upon a product so simple in design it could come back to bit them. If they introduce a physical keyboard it'd be to ugly and take away from the experience, they can't make the iPhone any bigger because it's pretty much one of the biggest on the market (surface area, not width) I love Apple, but I see Apple following a dark path into what lead Sony where they are today.
I hope they don't lose focus. Safari 4 beta is scary in the sense that Apple has released a product that isn't elegant or great. If this is what we have to expect, I'm not thrilled. Also not to get off topic but Snow Leopard as well, a less bloated more efficient faster version of 10.5? And we'll have to pay for it?! Apple has started treating their customers more and more like chumps, and it all started when iTools were taken away from us (anyone here ever used or remember iTools?).
Well if you succeed because it was a better product wouldn't Mac's have had more than 9% of the personal computing market? Don't disagree with me on this please, I assume we're all Mac users here.
Why can't he disagree with you? What does both of you owning Macs have to do with gaining asylum in a public forum? BTW, there are plenty of products that have <9% marketshare of an entire market but are considered the best in class and what the majority with they could be. In fact, it's the way most things are.
II hope they don't lose focus. Safari 4 beta is scary in the sense that Apple has released a product that isn't elegant or great.
It's the best version of Safari to date. The engine is the fastest and the most standards compliant of any released browser available. All the new features can easily be reverted to the old if you don't care for them.
Also not to get off topic but Snow Leopard as well, a less bloated more efficient faster version of 10.5? And we'll have to pay for it?! Apple has started treating their customers more and more like chumps,
What is is wrong with paying for a product that you want. Snow Leopard isn't just some extraneous files being cleaned out. It's the largest, most involved revision coming to OS X since it's inception. Not getting a bunch of flashy new features to play with doesn't mean that there isn't a great deal of work being done to the OS. I've been running benchmarks on each new SL revisions and it's getting faster and faster. But more importantly, if you don't think that the OS will be of enough value to pay $129 for it then you don't have to buy it. You can wait until 10.7 or never update as Leopard will be a viable OS for quite awhile.
and it all started when iTools were taken away from us (anyone here ever used or remember iTools?).
iTools was Apple trying something out. Then they moved to .Mac and eventually to MobileMe. Each time the service has gotten better. I'e been a member since iTools and have no problem paying a small fee for what is included with the service. Trying to get all those services from other sources will cost more, be a convoluted hassle and not actually get me the convenience and simplistic usability that is included in MM for $60/year. Again, the features in MM certainly won't be valuable to all, but to those they do use them then $5-8.25/month is a worthwhile expense.
Great idea!
Let's make wi-fi mandatory.
Let's make large bright screens mandatory.
Let's take away the data plans that people CHOSE to purchase.. and then .... let's make them mandatory.
Let's make 3G mandatory.
Let's make mobile browsers that DON'T SUCK mandatory.
and then let's compare market share numbers!
Look there's no subterfuge goin' on here. Apple just happens to be doing really well in another small corner of the tech world. Get over it and stop being a plonker.
I'm not disagreeing about them doing really well but under no circumstances can you draw any conclusions about the device. The only conclusion you can draw is that they are doing as well as they are because the device comes with a data plan. People blow this sort of data way out of proportion even though it is inherantly biased from the outset.
Well if you succeed because it was a better product wouldn't Mac's have had more than 9% of the personal computing market? Don't disagree with me on this please, I assume we're all Mac users here.
This is a thread about the iPhone's mobile web use, I'm talking about the success of the iPhone not the Mac. But no you don't need the dominant marketshare to be successful.
I also feel Apple may have a hard time innovating upon a product so simple in design it could come back to bit them.
There is a lot more that can be done with the iPhone. Its essentially a blank slate that can display a multitude of user interface.
I hope they don't lose focus. Safari 4 beta is scary in the sense that Apple has released a product that isn't elegant or great. If this is what we have to expect, I'm not thrilled. Also not to get off topic but Snow Leopard as well, a less bloated more efficient faster version of 10.5? And we'll have to pay for it?! Apple has started treating their customers more and more like chumps, and it all started when iTools were taken away from us (anyone here ever used or remember iTools?).
This is simply all your opinion and not to be confused with fact.
I'm not disagreeing about them doing really well but under no circumstances can you draw any conclusions about the device. The only conclusion you can draw is that they are doing as well as they are because the device comes with a data plan. People blow this sort of data way out of proportion even though it is inherantly biased from the outset.
I've been using data on phone's for years before the iPhone 3G was announced I was going to get a Blackberry Bold or a Samsung i780.
WiFi here is crap, for example yesterday I had free WiFi access avalable from a local fastfood outlet.
I had to turn wifi access off it was so shit, I ran Speedtest on it, download was between 28 and 257k the upload test wouldn't even complete.
Despite using the net on phone's for many years I find the iPhone is the first one that I use as an alternative to a PC before I'd only use my phone when I was away from home.
Now most of the time I don't even boot up my PC, I just use my iPhone.