Apple also changed the way you purchase a phone because many other phones when you upgrade and get those tons of new features usually cost $50- $100 Max.
If I correctly understood what you meant, I disagree. Yes, you can buy another phone with newer features at a lower price, but only if you are within the ?window? set by your carrier, else you will end up paying full price for the new phone/features. Apple will allow me these new features for free even if I do not buy a newer phone and with no extension of my contract either.
The most mystifying thing I've seen in recent years: the most fervent anti-Apple of the past are now in love with Macs and/or iPhone/iPods.
So what happened? How did Apple suddenly become cool?
At one point I figured the iPod was what made Apple cool...but it can't be the only thing that created Apple's recent success.
Breaking down of stereotypes, willingness to be open minded. People aren't afraid of computers like they used to be. What they used at work back then, is what they wanted at home. Before the iPod, people who were stuck in that Windows world never had an opportunity or even considered using Apple's products. The iPod allowed them to play with an Apple product while remaining in their familiar computing environment. This got some of them into Apple's stores where they could actually play with and experience a Mac. This leads to what they call, mindshare. To these people, a new choice is considered the next time they think about buying a new computer.
If I correctly understood what you meant, I disagree. Yes, you can buy another phone with newer features at a lower price, but only if you are within the ?window? set by your carrier, else you will end up paying full price for the new phone/features. Apple will allow me these new features for free even if I do not buy a newer phone and with no extension of my contract either.
And when iPhone adds a camera flash and more MP you won't shell out another $300- $400? What phone hasn't had MMS, video capture, a camera flash etc, etc, for like the last 3 years? My point that you get tons of new stuff anyway after 2 years for a lower price so these upgrade from Apple ,many are allready featured on most phones, are costing you - you just got them late. Now of course Apple does most of them better but others have themat the get go nonetheless.
You are mixing features. Of course you have to buy a new device for new hardware. The point is for the iPhone you don't have to buy new hardware to gain new software. That is the way most other smartphones are sold.
It doesn't really matter most people don't even use all of these features. Much of the reason for that is terrible software and difficult user interface.
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud
And when iPhone adds a camera flash and more MP you won't shell out another $300- $400? What phone hasn't had MMS, video capture, a camera flash etc, etc, for like the last 3 years? My point that you get tons of new stuff anyway after 2 years for a lower price so these upgrade from Apple ,many are allready featured on most phones, are costing you - you just got them late. Now of course Apple does most of them better but others have themat the get go nonetheless.
Since Apple hasn't released the OS, and the timetable is not definite - why speculate on how far competitors will be behind? It's sort of pointless, because by the time v3 comes out, we have no idea what other phone makers will have. And by pre-announcing all those features, competitors can target those that may actually be useful and do better.
No point fanning flames when no kindling has been ignited yet.
There is little reason to assume the competition has anything significant to push them ahead. Microsoft, with all it's alleged R&D, and Uncle Fester going on and on about it, could do no better than WinMo 6.5 in the TWO YEARS the iPhone has been out. It's beyond laughable. I'd be embarrassed to no end if I was a Windows user/MS enthusiast. In fact, now that we're on topic, Windows 7 will be the first time since 2001 that Windows users will get an OS that is nearly as friendly and easy to use as OS X.
This industry has been asleep for the past two years, and it's STILL behind the iPhone. By miles.
Want vapourware? it's called the Pre. At this point, that's some nice piece of takeover-bait. Note that in this entire industry, since the iPhone's inception, it is this vapourware that has been produced by EX-APPLE ENGINEERS, managed by an ex-Apple legend (Rubinstein), and funded by a company whose VP is an ex-Apple VP, that has even remotely challenged the iPhone. And it's not even shipping yet, if ever.
And when iPhone adds a camera flash and more MP you won't shell out another $300- $400? What phone hasn't had MMS, video capture, a camera flash etc, etc, for like the last 3 years? My point that you get tons of new stuff anyway after 2 years for a lower price so these upgrade from Apple ,many are allready featured on most phones, are costing you - you just got them late. Now of course Apple does most of them better but others have themat the get go nonetheless.
Well, first it was that other phones didn't need a robust software mechanism because they already came with all the "features" anyone could possibly want, and then it was that you get some new features when you upgrade any cheap phone, and now it's that you get some (presumably awesome) features when you pay $100-$200 to upgrade your smart phone. And all of this indicates that somehow you're actually paying for a free iPhone software update, and paying for new phones is cheaper, or the same, or something.
You're swinging wildly among features in general, features unique to smart phones, and features you think the iPhone "should" have had all along, which strikes me as hand waving obfuscation.
The fact is, a person who bought an iPhone 1.0 two years ago, and who presumably did so because the feature set at the time was acceptable to that buyer, will shortly have yet another round of major enhancements for free. No other phone platform can say the same.
Which means that anyone considering an iPhone now will take that into account. What features will be added in point releases over the coming year? What features will be added in the next major release? Don't know, but I can be reasonably sure that the iPhone I buy today will be able to run them, and perhaps more importantly that it will be trivially easy for me to be made aware of and install such updates.
That's an entirely new model for the phone world, and talking about features that the iPhone "should" have had all along, or claiming that the hardware upgrade cycle is somehow just as good, really misses the point, IMO.
What phone hasn't had MMS, video capture, a camera flash etc, etc, for like the last 3 years? My point that you get tons of new stuff anyway after 2 years for a lower price so these upgrade from Apple ,many are allready featured on most phones, are costing you - you just got them late. Now of course Apple does most of them better but others have themat the get go nonetheless.
The Nokia phone I replaced with my iPhone didn't have MMS, or a camera. In fact Nokia still sells a few models without all these "required" features as I'm sure do other manufacturers. There are also some companies and government agencies that will not allow camera phones on their premises.
So what happened? How did Apple suddenly become cool?
In short: x86 macs and iTunes on Windows did it; the net helped.
Once they were shipping and supporting x86 machines, there was a significantly lower barrier to entry into the Apple philosophy/ecosystem and significantly lower friction for people who were mid-switch or just dabbling.
And with widespread use of the modern internet, people increasingly don't care about boxed software. Which also removes a ton of friction in trying new operating systems.
I love the ridiculous price targets these idiots are setting.
Why are they 'ridiculous'? Why are they 'idiots'? I am not saying that either claim couldn't be true, but have you done your own DCF analysis to say this?
If you have, share. O/w, please shut up and move on.
Did I say smart phone? Can't you read? I'm much to busy to try to teach you and reply to your every need.
Which Phone, and you can't even answer.. poor debating skills on display there.
So
what phone included an iPod with touch screen right from the start?
what Phone included multi touch right from the start?
What phone has an up to date open web browser that is usable, right from the start?
what phone allows that browser to be updated to include the latest NON PROPRIETARY web standards as they emerge, right from the start?
I could go on..
If its ok to look at the iPhone and yell "WAA it doesn't have this or that or the other" like you are SO inclined to do about so much of Apples products.
then perhaps it is equally ok to ask, where are the products that have features that the iPhone has HAD .. RIGHT from the start.
I
Don't
SEE
Them.
but then I'm not on (insert Phone manufacturers name here) rumour sites bitching about what features those phones don't have.
Flash is a bad example to use to demonstrate Apple's control when, ironically, it is control that Apple is trying to remove from the open internet. Flash is a proprietary Adobe technology. Apple would much rather see the advancement of open web technologies such as HTML5 and CSS3.
Whether Apple (and like-minded companies) has the heft to marginalize the entrenched, proprietary, resource-hogging, kludgy, often uninstallable Flash plug-in which so many sites with limited re-programming resources depend on is a really interesting question.
E.g., I can't tell you how many government sites still depend on Active X controls and thus can't even be accessed by non-dual OS Macs (except with MS's ancient, long discontinued browser) or any PC running FireFox, and they're notoriously slow to re-architect software infrastructure.
The best tech doesn't always "Win." As trillions of blue screens of death mutely, but eloquently attest.
But we can hope. Can anybody make a cogent case that Flash will eventually "go away" (without being replaced by another proprietary tech like Silverlight) and that open standards will win the day?
maybe we could put this debate to rest if we agreed it's just a case of points of view: the glass half empty? or...well, you know. To me, the add-ons are new features to the hardware/software combination i originally bought. It's as if i bought an 08 (fill in the car make and model of your choice here) and it wasn't available with stability control, or a nav system: a year later the manufacturer makes those available thru a free firmware update. Those are new features to me, whether or not some other car make/model had those features in 08 when i bought mine without them. I'd be pretty happy. As I am with any improvements apple brings to the iPhone i already own.
thanks
Fine- but on the other hand we could put this to rest once and for all when people stop saying other phones don't give them free updates when in fact there is nothing for them to update for. They've had most of the features when they already bought them. So why would they need an update? I glad the iPhone update bridges into the 21 st century- sales will now go up again. This will expand the marketshare because many people want these features and may not have bought because they weren't previously available.
Which Phone, and you can't even answer.. poor debating skills on display there.
So
what phone included an iPod with touch screen right from the start?
what Phone included multi touch right from the start?
What phone has an up to date open web browser that is usable, right from the start?
what phone allows that browser to be updated to include the latest NON PROPRIETARY web standards as they emerge, right from the start?
I could go on..
If its ok to look at the iPhone and yell "WAA it doesn't have this or that or the other" like you are SO inclined to do about so much of Apples products.
then perhaps it is equally ok to ask, where are the products that have features that the iPhone has HAD .. RIGHT from the start.
I
Don't
SEE
Them.
but then I'm not on (insert Phone manufacturers name here) rumour sites bitching about what features those phones don't have.
What your point old man? Six of one, a half dozen of the other.
FYi- this is a discussion forum not a debating society. It's not the Koolaid brigade vs the trolls as you might want to have us believe.
You would be right if we were talking about the desktop PC. HTML 5 would have an uphill battle in replacing flash.
But mobile phones are an entirely new platform that no one yet completely controls. This gives HTML 5 and flash both a fairly equal chance at dominance. But all of the major OS development platforms are based on HTML and none of them are dependent on flash. Adobe knows this and is why they are scrambling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpics
Whether Apple (and like-minded companies) has the heft to marginalize the entrenched, proprietary, resource-hogging, kludgy, often uninstallable Flash plug-in which so many sites with limited re-programming resources depend on is a really interesting question.
2009 will be interesting. We'll see the Google Andoid G2 any week now. And 10 other gPhones before the year is out. And Apple will ship its third generation iPhone. Needless to say, the diversity of those 10 gPhones phones will offer some features Apple is resisting because they want control. For example, Flash. Many of these phones will come in at a far lower price than the $2400 cost of an iPhone over 24 months. I'm happy: competition is good for the consumer.
Right and I guess all those 10 gphones will be giving out for free with free service, every phone comes with a price.
One of the iphones greatest strengths is its third party support, which is why they released the beta of the next OS. Now when v3 ships it will have a ton of third party apps ready to go. That is something that Apples competitors cannot replicate easily, and definitely not in secret and internally. The iphones software advantage is not going away because Apple released information on features early (most of which are common features), this move only strengthens their position.
If you want to talk about getting excited about something too early, talk about the pre. We have no idea of what the iphone will be like (or other phones for that matter) when the Pre finally appears. Yet many are hailing the Pre as an iphone killer.
The Pre isn't going to kill anything, Palm needs to worry about staying alive, they need another bailout.
And maybe that's why other phones don't need "updates" because the've had these features (MMS, Cut and paste, bluetooth stereo, and video capture) since day one.
So why do those companies make new phones, if their current phones don't need updates, why release new ones?
Treading water in hardware?? Give me a break. Its competitors have exceeded Apple's hardware in many respects. Apple is behind the curve in hardware Apple's competitors actually have an advantage because they are more flexible in what they produce. The iPhone's major hardware weaknesses include the crappy camera (low res, no video), lack of a physical keyboard, the lack of buttons for vital controls. Companies like HTC and LG (among others) have surpassed Apple in these regards, though they don't have a compelling OS.
The Palm PRE looks to surpass the iPhone in many ways, and indications are the OS is much snappier than the iPhone's. And certainly it won't be the only device with such stats from Palm or otherwise.
Are you sure at the rate they're bleeding money, they'll still be around when the Pre ships, that's if it ships.
Comments
Apple also changed the way you purchase a phone because many other phones when you upgrade and get those tons of new features usually cost $50- $100 Max.
If I correctly understood what you meant, I disagree. Yes, you can buy another phone with newer features at a lower price, but only if you are within the ?window? set by your carrier, else you will end up paying full price for the new phone/features. Apple will allow me these new features for free even if I do not buy a newer phone and with no extension of my contract either.
The most mystifying thing I've seen in recent years: the most fervent anti-Apple of the past are now in love with Macs and/or iPhone/iPods.
So what happened? How did Apple suddenly become cool?
At one point I figured the iPod was what made Apple cool...but it can't be the only thing that created Apple's recent success.
Breaking down of stereotypes, willingness to be open minded. People aren't afraid of computers like they used to be. What they used at work back then, is what they wanted at home. Before the iPod, people who were stuck in that Windows world never had an opportunity or even considered using Apple's products. The iPod allowed them to play with an Apple product while remaining in their familiar computing environment. This got some of them into Apple's stores where they could actually play with and experience a Mac. This leads to what they call, mindshare. To these people, a new choice is considered the next time they think about buying a new computer.
If I correctly understood what you meant, I disagree. Yes, you can buy another phone with newer features at a lower price, but only if you are within the ?window? set by your carrier, else you will end up paying full price for the new phone/features. Apple will allow me these new features for free even if I do not buy a newer phone and with no extension of my contract either.
And when iPhone adds a camera flash and more MP you won't shell out another $300- $400? What phone hasn't had MMS, video capture, a camera flash etc, etc, for like the last 3 years? My point that you get tons of new stuff anyway after 2 years for a lower price so these upgrade from Apple ,many are allready featured on most phones, are costing you - you just got them late. Now of course Apple does most of them better but others have themat the get go nonetheless.
Did I say smart phone? Can't you read? I'm much to busy to try to teach you and reply to your every need.
It doesn't really matter most people don't even use all of these features. Much of the reason for that is terrible software and difficult user interface.
And when iPhone adds a camera flash and more MP you won't shell out another $300- $400? What phone hasn't had MMS, video capture, a camera flash etc, etc, for like the last 3 years? My point that you get tons of new stuff anyway after 2 years for a lower price so these upgrade from Apple ,many are allready featured on most phones, are costing you - you just got them late. Now of course Apple does most of them better but others have themat the get go nonetheless.
Since Apple hasn't released the OS, and the timetable is not definite - why speculate on how far competitors will be behind? It's sort of pointless, because by the time v3 comes out, we have no idea what other phone makers will have. And by pre-announcing all those features, competitors can target those that may actually be useful and do better.
No point fanning flames when no kindling has been ignited yet.
There is little reason to assume the competition has anything significant to push them ahead. Microsoft, with all it's alleged R&D, and Uncle Fester going on and on about it, could do no better than WinMo 6.5 in the TWO YEARS the iPhone has been out. It's beyond laughable. I'd be embarrassed to no end if I was a Windows user/MS enthusiast. In fact, now that we're on topic, Windows 7 will be the first time since 2001 that Windows users will get an OS that is nearly as friendly and easy to use as OS X.
This industry has been asleep for the past two years, and it's STILL behind the iPhone. By miles.
Want vapourware? it's called the Pre. At this point, that's some nice piece of takeover-bait. Note that in this entire industry, since the iPhone's inception, it is this vapourware that has been produced by EX-APPLE ENGINEERS, managed by an ex-Apple legend (Rubinstein), and funded by a company whose VP is an ex-Apple VP, that has even remotely challenged the iPhone. And it's not even shipping yet, if ever.
And when iPhone adds a camera flash and more MP you won't shell out another $300- $400? What phone hasn't had MMS, video capture, a camera flash etc, etc, for like the last 3 years? My point that you get tons of new stuff anyway after 2 years for a lower price so these upgrade from Apple ,many are allready featured on most phones, are costing you - you just got them late. Now of course Apple does most of them better but others have themat the get go nonetheless.
Well, first it was that other phones didn't need a robust software mechanism because they already came with all the "features" anyone could possibly want, and then it was that you get some new features when you upgrade any cheap phone, and now it's that you get some (presumably awesome) features when you pay $100-$200 to upgrade your smart phone. And all of this indicates that somehow you're actually paying for a free iPhone software update, and paying for new phones is cheaper, or the same, or something.
You're swinging wildly among features in general, features unique to smart phones, and features you think the iPhone "should" have had all along, which strikes me as hand waving obfuscation.
The fact is, a person who bought an iPhone 1.0 two years ago, and who presumably did so because the feature set at the time was acceptable to that buyer, will shortly have yet another round of major enhancements for free. No other phone platform can say the same.
Which means that anyone considering an iPhone now will take that into account. What features will be added in point releases over the coming year? What features will be added in the next major release? Don't know, but I can be reasonably sure that the iPhone I buy today will be able to run them, and perhaps more importantly that it will be trivially easy for me to be made aware of and install such updates.
That's an entirely new model for the phone world, and talking about features that the iPhone "should" have had all along, or claiming that the hardware upgrade cycle is somehow just as good, really misses the point, IMO.
What phone hasn't had MMS, video capture, a camera flash etc, etc, for like the last 3 years? My point that you get tons of new stuff anyway after 2 years for a lower price so these upgrade from Apple ,many are allready featured on most phones, are costing you - you just got them late. Now of course Apple does most of them better but others have themat the get go nonetheless.
The Nokia phone I replaced with my iPhone didn't have MMS, or a camera. In fact Nokia still sells a few models without all these "required" features as I'm sure do other manufacturers. There are also some companies and government agencies that will not allow camera phones on their premises.
So what happened? How did Apple suddenly become cool?
In short: x86 macs and iTunes on Windows did it; the net helped.
Once they were shipping and supporting x86 machines, there was a significantly lower barrier to entry into the Apple philosophy/ecosystem and significantly lower friction for people who were mid-switch or just dabbling.
And with widespread use of the modern internet, people increasingly don't care about boxed software. Which also removes a ton of friction in trying new operating systems.
I love the ridiculous price targets these idiots are setting.
Why are they 'ridiculous'? Why are they 'idiots'? I am not saying that either claim couldn't be true, but have you done your own DCF analysis to say this?
If you have, share. O/w, please shut up and move on.
Did I say smart phone? Can't you read? I'm much to busy to try to teach you and reply to your every need.
Which Phone, and you can't even answer.. poor debating skills on display there.
So
what phone included an iPod with touch screen right from the start?
what Phone included multi touch right from the start?
What phone has an up to date open web browser that is usable, right from the start?
what phone allows that browser to be updated to include the latest NON PROPRIETARY web standards as they emerge, right from the start?
I could go on..
If its ok to look at the iPhone and yell "WAA it doesn't have this or that or the other" like you are SO inclined to do about so much of Apples products.
then perhaps it is equally ok to ask, where are the products that have features that the iPhone has HAD .. RIGHT from the start.
I
Don't
SEE
Them.
but then I'm not on (insert Phone manufacturers name here) rumour sites bitching about what features those phones don't have.
Still a few features that needs to be added before the final release:
1) Voice Dialing....
Now, there's a good one!
Flash is a bad example to use to demonstrate Apple's control when, ironically, it is control that Apple is trying to remove from the open internet. Flash is a proprietary Adobe technology. Apple would much rather see the advancement of open web technologies such as HTML5 and CSS3.
Whether Apple (and like-minded companies) has the heft to marginalize the entrenched, proprietary, resource-hogging, kludgy, often uninstallable Flash plug-in which so many sites with limited re-programming resources depend on is a really interesting question.
E.g., I can't tell you how many government sites still depend on Active X controls and thus can't even be accessed by non-dual OS Macs (except with MS's ancient, long discontinued browser) or any PC running FireFox, and they're notoriously slow to re-architect software infrastructure.
The best tech doesn't always "Win." As trillions of blue screens of death mutely, but eloquently attest.
But we can hope. Can anybody make a cogent case that Flash will eventually "go away" (without being replaced by another proprietary tech like Silverlight) and that open standards will win the day?
maybe we could put this debate to rest if we agreed it's just a case of points of view: the glass half empty? or...well, you know. To me, the add-ons are new features to the hardware/software combination i originally bought. It's as if i bought an 08 (fill in the car make and model of your choice here) and it wasn't available with stability control, or a nav system: a year later the manufacturer makes those available thru a free firmware update. Those are new features to me, whether or not some other car make/model had those features in 08 when i bought mine without them. I'd be pretty happy. As I am with any improvements apple brings to the iPhone i already own.
thanks
Fine- but on the other hand we could put this to rest once and for all when people stop saying other phones don't give them free updates when in fact there is nothing for them to update for. They've had most of the features when they already bought them. So why would they need an update? I glad the iPhone update bridges into the 21 st century- sales will now go up again. This will expand the marketshare because many people want these features and may not have bought because they weren't previously available.
Which Phone, and you can't even answer.. poor debating skills on display there.
So
what phone included an iPod with touch screen right from the start?
what Phone included multi touch right from the start?
What phone has an up to date open web browser that is usable, right from the start?
what phone allows that browser to be updated to include the latest NON PROPRIETARY web standards as they emerge, right from the start?
I could go on..
If its ok to look at the iPhone and yell "WAA it doesn't have this or that or the other" like you are SO inclined to do about so much of Apples products.
then perhaps it is equally ok to ask, where are the products that have features that the iPhone has HAD .. RIGHT from the start.
I
Don't
SEE
Them.
but then I'm not on (insert Phone manufacturers name here) rumour sites bitching about what features those phones don't have.
What your point old man? Six of one, a half dozen of the other.
FYi- this is a discussion forum not a debating society. It's not the Koolaid brigade vs the trolls as you might want to have us believe.
But mobile phones are an entirely new platform that no one yet completely controls. This gives HTML 5 and flash both a fairly equal chance at dominance. But all of the major OS development platforms are based on HTML and none of them are dependent on flash. Adobe knows this and is why they are scrambling.
Whether Apple (and like-minded companies) has the heft to marginalize the entrenched, proprietary, resource-hogging, kludgy, often uninstallable Flash plug-in which so many sites with limited re-programming resources depend on is a really interesting question.
2009 will be interesting. We'll see the Google Andoid G2 any week now. And 10 other gPhones before the year is out. And Apple will ship its third generation iPhone. Needless to say, the diversity of those 10 gPhones phones will offer some features Apple is resisting because they want control. For example, Flash. Many of these phones will come in at a far lower price than the $2400 cost of an iPhone over 24 months. I'm happy: competition is good for the consumer.
Right and I guess all those 10 gphones will be giving out for free with free service, every phone comes with a price.
One of the iphones greatest strengths is its third party support, which is why they released the beta of the next OS. Now when v3 ships it will have a ton of third party apps ready to go. That is something that Apples competitors cannot replicate easily, and definitely not in secret and internally. The iphones software advantage is not going away because Apple released information on features early (most of which are common features), this move only strengthens their position.
If you want to talk about getting excited about something too early, talk about the pre. We have no idea of what the iphone will be like (or other phones for that matter) when the Pre finally appears. Yet many are hailing the Pre as an iphone killer.
The Pre isn't going to kill anything, Palm needs to worry about staying alive, they need another bailout.
And maybe that's why other phones don't need "updates" because the've had these features (MMS, Cut and paste, bluetooth stereo, and video capture) since day one.
So why do those companies make new phones, if their current phones don't need updates, why release new ones?
Treading water in hardware?? Give me a break. Its competitors have exceeded Apple's hardware in many respects. Apple is behind the curve in hardware Apple's competitors actually have an advantage because they are more flexible in what they produce. The iPhone's major hardware weaknesses include the crappy camera (low res, no video), lack of a physical keyboard, the lack of buttons for vital controls. Companies like HTC and LG (among others) have surpassed Apple in these regards, though they don't have a compelling OS.
The Palm PRE looks to surpass the iPhone in many ways, and indications are the OS is much snappier than the iPhone's. And certainly it won't be the only device with such stats from Palm or otherwise.
Are you sure at the rate they're bleeding money, they'll still be around when the Pre ships, that's if it ships.