Yet you prove incapable, over two posts, of naming even one. Come on, if they're as obvious and perplexing as you claim, surely it wouldn't be too much for you to post ONE of them, right? Or are you just trolling?
Common sense actually. I didn't accept the fact that Apple said the iphone couldn't do something (when clearly it could) so I got rid of it. I could sit down with any phone and tell you how to make it better, it's just common sense. Ironic you tell anyone they have a "healthy dose of hubris" just because they can think this way.
If making a good phone was common sense, why couldn't any just do it? Why are Motorola, Sony/Ericsson, and Palm all nearly out of the phone business?
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Newton MessagePad had copy and paste back in 1993, and you're telling me the geniuses at Apple couldn't come up with a solution? Jeesh
The Newton used a stylus. I keep trying to explain that finger touch screens introduced new problems.
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Hmmm yeah you're right. It's not documented anywhere that video recording is cared about by anyone in the demographic of ages 20 and above, therefore, it must not be something you should care about. Amazing how easily you can be programmed. If there was evidence that most people did care about sticking a vibrating iphone up their ass, and it was most popular for those above 20, would you fight for lube to be included with your purchase of an iphone?
You can easily look at sales numbers and usage surveys. Most people don't buy phones based on their video recording capability, its not a priority. There have been many surveys that ask the most used features on phones and video recording is always near the bottom or doesn't show up at all.
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Really? You haven't seen all the reviews people posted where they got to play with the phone at CES? How could you know anything about it if you refuse to read what first hand experiences are like? Christ man.
I saw videos where Palm representatives were demonstrating the Pre, but no one outside of Palm was able to touch it.
"Sprint, Palm, what is the deal with not being able to hold and use the Pre with my own two hands? At CES, GSMA 2009, and now CTIA, the companies have required that a Palm or Sprint representative have at least one hand on the smartphone at all times even when we're just trying to take pictures, and we're not allowed to touch certain functionalities, and I just don't get it. What's the purpose? Who is it benefiting?"
Seems I'm the ONLY one who's interested in being objective. I haven't been completely illogical in my argument, you just simply don't agree so suddenly I'm some idiot ranting for no reason. I MEAN ITS NOT LIKE I OWNED THE DAMN THING RIGHT!? LOL
You come on the list calling us closed minded, blind, Apple fans. That doesn't sound objective at all.
You accuse Apple of leaving off features that every other phone has had with no understanding, context, or history of product development. You refuse to understand why Apple left those features off, or the fact that other phones did not have similar features when they were first launched.
You make sweeping comparisons of the iPhone to the Pre. A product that is in essence still vaporware and not available to anyone.
Correct, and Phone would automatically fail over to GSM when it did not.
Really, has not one person here used a phone that supports Wi-Fi calling? Like any number of Nokia models? If you are connected to Wi-Fi it calls out using the internet. If you are not, it calls out over GSM. If you are connected to Wi-Fi you can receive inbound calls over the internet. If you aren't, you can't. It's all completely invisible, works no matter where you are in the world, and saves you lots of money. And if you do get a Skype-to-Skype call, the voice quality is better to boot.
If making a good phone was common sense, why couldn't any just do it? Why are Motorola, Sony/Ericsson, and Palm all nearly out of the phone business?
So it's really hard for you to sit down with a phone and find things you don't like about it? That's all I'm saying. Common sense. For fucks sake man.
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Originally Posted by TenoBell
The Newton used a stylus. I keep trying to explain that finger touch screens introduced new problems.
Stop making excuses for them. They called the phone a smart phone but copy and paste is an essential feature in document editing. It's something that could have been done long ago, and is just now being released in order to stay competitive.
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Originally Posted by TenoBell
You can easily look at sales numbers and usage surveys. Most people don't buy phones based on their video recording capability, its not a priority. There have been many surveys that ask the most used features on phones and video recording is always near the bottom or doesn't show up at all.
I didn't buy the touch pro because it can act as a wifi router, but it can. It's something the phone is capable of, that it does, that I've found joy in. Recording video with the iphone would be the same type of feature for many people, but as I said before, this is a feature they will inevitably roll out later on down the line to keep things competitive. It's an artificial limitation, is it not?
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Originally Posted by TenoBell
I saw videos where Palm representatives were demonstrating the Pre, but no one outside of Palm was able to touch it.
"Sprint, Palm, what is the deal with not being able to hold and use the Pre with my own two hands? At CES, GSMA 2009, and now CTIA, the companies have required that a Palm or Sprint representative have at least one hand on the smartphone at all times even when we're just trying to take pictures, and we're not allowed to touch certain functionalities, and I just don't get it. What's the purpose? Who is it benefiting?"
You come on the list calling us closed minded, blind, Apple fans. That doesn't sound objective at all.
Making excuses for a company's greed is closed minded, blind, and screams Apple fanboism.
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Originally Posted by TenoBell
You accuse Apple of leaving off features that every other phone has had with no understanding, context, or history of product development. You refuse to understand why Apple left those features off, or the fact that other phones did not have similar features when they were first launched.
I accuse Apple of artificial limitations yes, but I do have a very good understanding why. It's YOU who refuses to understand why Apple kept those features off. Sure, other phones didn't have these features when they were launched, TEN YEARS AGO. You think Apple is that far behind everyone? No. It's so ironic you use other phones' development life cycles as examples when here comes the Pre, doing exactly what I'm talking about RIGHT OUT OF THE GATE. The Pre will have it right away, just another small feature that could lure iphone users to it, which is why apple is suddenly allowing copy and paste!
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Originally Posted by TenoBell
You make sweeping comparisons of the iPhone to the Pre. A product that is in essence still vaporware and not available to anyone.
Trust me, when someone says the Pre is better, I say the same thing, it's not available to anyone so it's impossible to say, but at the same time I say the same thing to you iphone peeps who say the opposite. Nobody truly knows which is better, and I don't think comparing who sells more after the debut is a good way of comparing that either. When the iphone came out, everyone went gaga for it and bought one. The Pre's launch won't be as impressive in terms of numbers simply because the iphone was bought up by so many.
Palm seems to be doing things the right way but I could be wrong. Either way, Apple is lifting the vale (so to speak) on some artificial features in an effort to compete with the Pre. It's just business, nothing more.
1) You are much more likely to have your conversation dropped or paused form a lack of priority-based QoS voice routing with VoIP on a handheld trying to traverse different cellular data network and open and closed WiFi hotspots while traveling.
Well for one, you completely missed the point I was making. The point I was making, which has been a constant complaint among the iPhone customer base, is that Phone will interrupt and disconnect a Skype call. That's because Phone will interrupt and stop any application that does not get out of the way within 5 seconds of the call coming in. If VOIP apps worked through the Phone app, this would no longer be a problem.
But to address this new point, the opposite is also true. I have had numerous calls dropped in my house when using CDMA, less using GSM, and zero on Skype. Skype is an excellent replacement for a landline more than it is a replacement for a cell phone. Different needs, different capabilities. If the iPhone supported both cleanly, as many other phones do, its utility would improve tremendously.
As I noted earlier, numerous carriers already offer a solution exactly like using handsets that support it. Examples include AT&T's "Unstrung" and Fido's "UNO". These use UMA as the data haul, but are technically identical to what I am proposing here. In other cases, like the Nokia 60 series, they use SIP as the data haul, and again, it remains otherwise identical.
So lots of other companies are already doing this perfectly fine. But apparently in this case you think it's a ridiculous concept. Perhaps you believe Apple's programmer's simple aren't as good as Nokia's, but I believe the opposite is the case.
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Originally Posted by solipsism
But you don't want that, you want any and all VoIP app to hijack the phone app and integrate with it, yet you somehow think this will make the app more stable. That is what befuddles me.
I said nothing of the sort. I said it would make the user experience better, not the stability. I believe it will have absolutely no effect whatsoever on stability, especially if Apple programmers are as good as I suspect.
As an example, you wouldn't have to "integrate" with the Contacts, you would actually use contacts. That would improve the user experience. Having the Phone app stop cutting you off in the middle of a Skype call would also improve the user experience. As would being able to make an outbound call on the carrier of my choice with the press of a button. And remaining logged in for inbound calls even when the Skype app isn't running, that would be downright fantastic.
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Originally Posted by solipsism
You are proposing that a VoIP app takes over my iPhone's phone app. This VoIP app will then dicate what kind of call I should be making.
I said nothing of the sort. I said you choose the type of call you should be making.
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Originally Posted by solipsism
So if it sees a Linksys WiFi hotspot... [rest of silly example removed].
Apple's system for selecting hot-spots is brain-dead, I agree. I hear they are improving it in 3.0.
However, as you can see in the posts above, I clearly proposed having a list of hot-spots that you would use to default to having your VOIP app "on". On other hotspots the default behavior would be to not use VOIP, and use GSM instead. In any case, the user could easily override their defaults, which they selected, simply by holding down the Call button and selecting which carrier to use.
There are lots of phones on the market that do this. AT&T sells a bunch. They all work perfectly. I'm sure an Apple version would work even better.
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Originally Posted by solipsism
The point of a phone is to have a phone to use when you need it. VoIP is great for saving a few dimes, specially for international calls, but they aren't a good replacement to auto-detect the best network on a mobile.
Skype is the #1 long distance exchange in the world. Apparently there are some people that disagree with your assessment of it's abilities. So do all the carriers that sell UMA handsets.
Sorry, it's pretty clear to me that your simply unfamiliar with the way these products work. Perhaps you would take the time to go read the wikipedia article on UMA and SIP and then come back with a more informed opinion.
Can anyone explain to me why Apple would "deliberately" withhold a feature like copy and paste, and only add it "to remain competitive"?
Because they're lazy? Because they enjoy making their buyers look like fools? Because they're crazy?
Really, what's the motivation being ascribed to Apple here, beyond reflexive internet douch-baggery?
There will always be people who like to complain about something. They love conspiracy theories, because it makes them feel better when things don't go their way.
If they want something and it isn't available, there must be some nefarious reason.
Yeah that's what it is guys. It's douche baggery. I mean, it's not like your phones can record video right? There's no such thing as artificial limitations!
Think of it this way, I invent a phone that does everything everyone ever wanted, I mean EVERYTHING. Would people buy new versions down the line? No, the phone they have has everything they want already.
Apple dangles bits and pieces in front of you a little at a time like a dirt farmer dangling a carrot in front of a mule.
"Well, I WAS going to get the Pre, but Apple is finally giving me these new features. I guess I'll stay AND RENEW MY TWO YEAR CONTRACT."
It isn't coincidence that these features come out just as a lot of user's two year contracts are coming to an end? LOL.
Yeah that's what it is guys. It's douche baggery. I mean, it's not like your phones can record video right? There's no such thing as artificial limitations!
Think of it this way, I invent a phone that does everything everyone ever wanted, I mean EVERYTHING. Would people buy new versions down the line? No, the phone they have has everything they want already.
Apple dangles bits and pieces in front of you a little at a time like a dirt farmer dangling a carrot in front of a mule.
"Well, I WAS going to get the Pre, but Apple is finally giving me these new features. I guess I'll stay AND RENEW MY TWO YEAR CONTRACT."
It isn't coincidence that these features come out just as a lot of user's two year contracts are coming to an end? LOL.
You've had it explained to you, in detail, what kind of software development and what kind of timeframe for same is involved in developing new features, and how the said timeframe pretty much precludes Apple including such features as a response to the Pre. But you persist in your little fantasy, despite that fact that it makes no rational sense. So, douchebaggery? Looks that way to me.
Please read the John Gruber article I linked to, and try to wrap your head around the idea that Apple is being very conservative in building the foundations of a platform that they expect to deploy across multiple devices for years to come.
A carefully designed platform-- the SDK, the API, the UI, the frameworks-- is what permits adding features that work well down the line. Apple very obviously focused on getting the fundamentals right, and expects it to pay off going forward. I expect they're right.
So it's really hard for you to sit down with a phone and find things you don't like about it? That's all I'm saying. Common sense. For fucks sake man.
That has nothing to do with common sense, that's a subjective choice.
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Stop making excuses for them. They called the phone a smart phone but copy and paste is an essential feature in document editing. It's something that could have been done long ago, and is just now being released in order to stay competitive.
I've never seen an official definition for a smartphone.
It's true Apple could have chosen to implement copy and paste sooner. I believe and many others believe Apple waited until they felt they had the proper implementation. You are free to believe Apple witheld it simply to annoy people. But it's an interesting conclusion coming from a supposedly unbiased perspective.
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Making excuses for a company's greed is closed minded, blind, and screams Apple fanboism.
Apple is giving the OS updates to all iPhone users, where is the greed?
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I accuse Apple of artificial limitations yes, but I do have a very good understanding why. It's YOU who refuses to understand why Apple kept those features off. Sure, other phones didn't have these features when they were launched, TEN YEARS AGO. You think Apple is that far behind everyone? No. It's so ironic you use other phones' development life cycles as examples when here comes the Pre, doing exactly what I'm talking about RIGHT OUT OF THE GATE. The Pre will have it right away, just another small feature that could lure iphone users to it, which is why apple is suddenly allowing copy and paste!
For the person whose true intent is to be objective, their would be room to see Apple's choices as compromises and taking time to properly develop a new platform.
The iPhone is new for Apple. As a software developer you should know that Apple has develop it's own platform. Apple cannot copy what MS, RIM, or Nokia has done. Yes Apple is starting from scratch with it's own mobile platform, it doesn't matter what someone else has done.
We still have to wait and see how well the Pre works. Simply because a feature is announced does not automatically mean it works well or is all that useful.
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Palm seems to be doing things the right way but I could be wrong. Either way, Apple is lifting the vale (so to speak) on some artificial features in an effort to compete with the Pre. It's just business, nothing more.
So your thinking is that Apple is implementing features that it obviously began developing months ago before anyone outside of Palm knew the Pre existed. To explicitly compete with the a phone that is not yet on the market.
Think of it this way, I invent a phone that does everything everyone ever wanted, I mean EVERYTHING. Would people buy new versions down the line? No, the phone they have has everything they want already.
Who has ever invented a phone like that? And if they did what guarantee is there that it would work well and that people would actually buy it?
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"Well, I WAS going to get the Pre, but Apple is finally giving me these new features. I guess I'll stay AND RENEW MY TWO YEAR CONTRACT."
I doubt they need for you to go out of your way and inconvenience yourself to do them any favors.
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It isn't coincidence that these features come out just as a lot of user's two year contracts are coming to an end? LOL.
The Pre was announced in the second week in January, the iPhone OS 3.0 was announced March 17th. You think Apple suddenly developed and added new features in that two month gap? Software developer.........
wow everything you just said in those two posts was completely mindless. You should be ashamed of yourself.
here's an idea I want you to dwell on for a second: People's 2 year contracts are going to start expiring. Apple knew if there was a contender, the release date would be chosen for around this time. They PLANNED the 3.0 update around this time on purpose. To keep people from leaving to another phone. Suddenly the phone can do all these things the customers have been demanding for the past 2 years?
And I use the Pre as an example because it's the contender that stepped up. Apple might not have known who was going to step up so boldly, but they knew someone would, and it's obvious it's got them scared shitless.
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Originally Posted by TenoBell
I doubt they need for you to go out of your way and inconvenience yourself to do them any favors.
Oh wow LOL. You thought I was talking about little ol me? And not thousands upon thousands of customers who's 2 year contracts are expiring? Too funny.
I'm done with this discussion. As I stated before, it's just a bunch of arrogant narrow viewed fanboys making excuses for their master. Hilarious
While third-party apps are being trumpeted as the iPhone's strength
Apple should not allow third parties to create native iPhone applications. Nobody cares about third party iPhone applications. Web apps are really SWEET.
Well for one, you completely missed the point I was making. The point I was making, which has been a constant complaint among the iPhone customer base, is that Phone will interrupt and disconnect a Skype call. That's because Phone will interrupt and stop any application that does not get out of the way within 5 seconds of the call coming in.
Maury
Why the obsession with Skype?
I find them to be more expensive than my other VOIP provider (which the Skype App won't let me use) for International calls to phones and more expensive than my phone provider for local calls (any phone in Australia).
I let my wife use Skype on my iPhone so she can make Skype to Skype calls to her relatives, if a call comes in for me, her call is interrupted and she can resume it later.
This is a good thing.
Since I found out that I can hotswap SIM's on my officially unlocked iPhone I no longer carry my N82 (which had all those useless [to me] features you keep whining about), instead I carry my other SIM and a paperclip in my wallet.
Don't presume that you know people's needs better than they themselves do.
wow everything you just said in those two posts was completely mindless. You should be ashamed of yourself.
here's an idea I want you to dwell on for a second: People's 2 year contracts are going to start expiring. Apple knew if there was a contender, the release date would be chosen for around this time. They PLANNED the 3.0 update around this time on purpose. To keep people from leaving to another phone. Suddenly the phone can do all these things the customers have been demanding for the past 2 years?
And I use the Pre as an example because it's the contender that stepped up. Apple might not have known who was going to step up so boldly, but they knew someone would, and it's obvious it's got them scared shitless.
Oh wow LOL. You thought I was talking about little ol me? And not thousands upon thousands of customers who's 2 year contracts are expiring? Too funny.
I'm done with this discussion. As I stated before, it's just a bunch of arrogant narrow viewed fanboys making excuses for their master. Hilarious
Oh noes.
Apple is working to improve the iPhone, and offering new models timed to increase sales and user retention. The conniving bastards! Decent companies make things with every possible feature and never update it, or time such updates to negatively impact sales, if possible.
And making the iPhone OS3 a free upgrade to all iPhone owners? What balls! Because....... well, I'm not sure how that fits my theory, but being Apple, it's got to be some kind of bullshit.
For this to make logical sense means. Two years ago when Apple launched the original iPhone in June, which subsequently set new iPhone launches in June. This means Apple purposefully set new iPhone launches in June because they knew the iPhone was going to dominate the smartphone market and that two years later someone would successfully launch a competing phone in June. So in 2007 Apple knew that by summer 2009 they would have to add copy/cut/paste, MMS, and tethering to head off the contender to the throne the iPhone had yet to hold.
That some serious business clairvoyance. You give Apple a lot more credit than I do.
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Originally Posted by chronster
here's an idea I want you to dwell on for a second: People's 2 year contracts are going to start expiring. Apple knew if there was a contender, the release date would be chosen for around this time. They PLANNED the 3.0 update around this time on purpose. To keep people from leaving to another phone. Suddenly the phone can do all these things the customers have been demanding for the past 2 years?
Sorry, it's pretty clear to me that your simply unfamiliar with the way these products work. Perhaps you would take the time to go read the wikipedia article on UMA and SIP and then come back with a more informed opinion.
I had a Cisco CCIE Voice cert and have had a Skype In number for nearly 3 years now, so I think I may a little bit of knowledge and experience about the tech.
For this to make logical sense means. Two years ago when Apple launched the original iPhone in June, which subsequently set new iPhone launches in June. This means Apple purposefully set new iPhone launches in June because they knew the iPhone was going to dominate the smartphone market and that two years later someone would successfully launch a competing phone in June. So in 2007 Apple knew that by summer 2009 they would have to add copy/cut/paste, MMS, and tethering to head off the contender to the throne the iPhone had yet to hold.
That some serious business clairvoyance. You give Apple a lot more credit than I do.
Yes exactly! You understand what I'm saying. A company being ran with people as smart as those at Apple don't release a phone as awesome as the iphone without knowing what kind of impact it would have (in terms of other companies waking up and trying to contend with BETTER products.) There was nothing as cool as the iphone when it came out. They got a TON of 2 year sign up's for AT&T. In 2 years, a company can make a decent phone to contend with them. I mean, they pushed out the samsung instinct in like 6 weeks, and even though it was a big piece of junk for most, it still sold pretty good for Sprint (it really is a piece of shit though, and I laugh whenever anyone tries to say it's an iphone killer.)
I don't think the guys at Apple are so dumb that they thought they wouldn't have something to contend with around this time. I mean, it was one thing when the Instinct came out, but now the Pre is coming out just as customers will be considering leaving AT&T.
Even though you don't think video recording is important, it's still something the iphone is capable of, and something Apple should give their customers (even if it's just the kids demanding it.) It's an artificial limitation.
All I'm saying is, they should have given you guys things like mms, tethering, and copy and paste as soon as they were ready (which I think was long ago!) And I think it's REALLY gay for people to make excuses for them.
What I like most about the iphone and Apple is how it made other companies work harder. You guys like your iphones, you like Apple, I don't, thanks for the discussion
Even though you don't think video recording is important, it's still something the iphone is capable of, and something Apple should give their customers (even if it's just the kids demanding it.) It's an artificial limitation.
It's not an artificial limitation.
And yes I am well aware there are some crappy shareware recorders for the iPhone which can grab a few seconds of wobbly motion.
1) The iPhone (1st gen and Second gen (3G) hardware has a pretty crappy camera chip which takes about a 1/10s to pull the data off it.
Not only does this mean you struggle to get more than 8 or 9 frames per second. But the top of the frame is a whole tenth of a second in front of the bottom. For capturing motion this "rolling shutter" is extremely sucky. Any action is reduced to jello like motion.
In short, any captured video footage looks doubly shitty. And Apple has an allergy to shitty features. Better leave the feature out.
2) There's no hardware to compress the video to a small size. The shareware apps ignore this and simply fill the iPhone with data - till it runs out. To compress a movie down to a nice H264 would take the iPhone's processor about 3 minutes and the CPU would start to melt the case by the time it had finished.
3) If people had the option of video recording, suddenly they'd want to mail the movie to their buddies as an email attachment. And while Apple might be cool with this - the carriers would whine bitterly about people UPLOADING 10MB attachments.
The decision to leave out video was not mean-spirited, or crooked. It was just smart. Let's leave out this feature until some point in the future when we can do it properly. The market didn't seem to mind the omission too much.
The next iPhone rev will probably have a decent imaging chip, a hardware encoder and .., who knows ... the phone network might be able to cope with video attachments.
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I wouldn't even know where to being.
Apparently, given the content-free posts.
There are so many glaring inaccuracies that
Yet you prove incapable, over two posts, of naming even one. Come on, if they're as obvious and perplexing as you claim, surely it wouldn't be too much for you to post ONE of them, right? Or are you just trolling?
Maury
Common sense actually. I didn't accept the fact that Apple said the iphone couldn't do something (when clearly it could) so I got rid of it. I could sit down with any phone and tell you how to make it better, it's just common sense. Ironic you tell anyone they have a "healthy dose of hubris" just because they can think this way.
If making a good phone was common sense, why couldn't any just do it? Why are Motorola, Sony/Ericsson, and Palm all nearly out of the phone business?
Newton MessagePad had copy and paste back in 1993, and you're telling me the geniuses at Apple couldn't come up with a solution? Jeesh
The Newton used a stylus. I keep trying to explain that finger touch screens introduced new problems.
Hmmm yeah you're right. It's not documented anywhere that video recording is cared about by anyone in the demographic of ages 20 and above, therefore, it must not be something you should care about. Amazing how easily you can be programmed. If there was evidence that most people did care about sticking a vibrating iphone up their ass, and it was most popular for those above 20, would you fight for lube to be included with your purchase of an iphone?
You can easily look at sales numbers and usage surveys. Most people don't buy phones based on their video recording capability, its not a priority. There have been many surveys that ask the most used features on phones and video recording is always near the bottom or doesn't show up at all.
Really? You haven't seen all the reviews people posted where they got to play with the phone at CES? How could you know anything about it if you refuse to read what first hand experiences are like? Christ man.
I saw videos where Palm representatives were demonstrating the Pre, but no one outside of Palm was able to touch it.
"Sprint, Palm, what is the deal with not being able to hold and use the Pre with my own two hands? At CES, GSMA 2009, and now CTIA, the companies have required that a Palm or Sprint representative have at least one hand on the smartphone at all times even when we're just trying to take pictures, and we're not allowed to touch certain functionalities, and I just don't get it. What's the purpose? Who is it benefiting?"
Really? I can't touch the Palm Pre? Really!?!
Seems I'm the ONLY one who's interested in being objective. I haven't been completely illogical in my argument, you just simply don't agree so suddenly I'm some idiot ranting for no reason. I MEAN ITS NOT LIKE I OWNED THE DAMN THING RIGHT!? LOL
You come on the list calling us closed minded, blind, Apple fans. That doesn't sound objective at all.
You accuse Apple of leaving off features that every other phone has had with no understanding, context, or history of product development. You refuse to understand why Apple left those features off, or the fact that other phones did not have similar features when they were first launched.
You make sweeping comparisons of the iPhone to the Pre. A product that is in essence still vaporware and not available to anyone.
Skype is only useful when IN that network.
Correct, and Phone would automatically fail over to GSM when it did not.
Really, has not one person here used a phone that supports Wi-Fi calling? Like any number of Nokia models? If you are connected to Wi-Fi it calls out using the internet. If you are not, it calls out over GSM. If you are connected to Wi-Fi you can receive inbound calls over the internet. If you aren't, you can't. It's all completely invisible, works no matter where you are in the world, and saves you lots of money. And if you do get a Skype-to-Skype call, the voice quality is better to boot.
Maury
If making a good phone was common sense, why couldn't any just do it? Why are Motorola, Sony/Ericsson, and Palm all nearly out of the phone business?
So it's really hard for you to sit down with a phone and find things you don't like about it? That's all I'm saying. Common sense. For fucks sake man.
The Newton used a stylus. I keep trying to explain that finger touch screens introduced new problems.
Stop making excuses for them. They called the phone a smart phone but copy and paste is an essential feature in document editing. It's something that could have been done long ago, and is just now being released in order to stay competitive.
You can easily look at sales numbers and usage surveys. Most people don't buy phones based on their video recording capability, its not a priority. There have been many surveys that ask the most used features on phones and video recording is always near the bottom or doesn't show up at all.
I didn't buy the touch pro because it can act as a wifi router, but it can. It's something the phone is capable of, that it does, that I've found joy in. Recording video with the iphone would be the same type of feature for many people, but as I said before, this is a feature they will inevitably roll out later on down the line to keep things competitive. It's an artificial limitation, is it not?
I saw videos where Palm representatives were demonstrating the Pre, but no one outside of Palm was able to touch it.
"Sprint, Palm, what is the deal with not being able to hold and use the Pre with my own two hands? At CES, GSMA 2009, and now CTIA, the companies have required that a Palm or Sprint representative have at least one hand on the smartphone at all times even when we're just trying to take pictures, and we're not allowed to touch certain functionalities, and I just don't get it. What's the purpose? Who is it benefiting?"
Really? I can't touch the Palm Pre? Really!?!
I've seen the opposite at gizmodo.
You come on the list calling us closed minded, blind, Apple fans. That doesn't sound objective at all.
Making excuses for a company's greed is closed minded, blind, and screams Apple fanboism.
You accuse Apple of leaving off features that every other phone has had with no understanding, context, or history of product development. You refuse to understand why Apple left those features off, or the fact that other phones did not have similar features when they were first launched.
I accuse Apple of artificial limitations yes, but I do have a very good understanding why. It's YOU who refuses to understand why Apple kept those features off. Sure, other phones didn't have these features when they were launched, TEN YEARS AGO. You think Apple is that far behind everyone? No. It's so ironic you use other phones' development life cycles as examples when here comes the Pre, doing exactly what I'm talking about RIGHT OUT OF THE GATE. The Pre will have it right away, just another small feature that could lure iphone users to it, which is why apple is suddenly allowing copy and paste!
You make sweeping comparisons of the iPhone to the Pre. A product that is in essence still vaporware and not available to anyone.
Trust me, when someone says the Pre is better, I say the same thing, it's not available to anyone so it's impossible to say, but at the same time I say the same thing to you iphone peeps who say the opposite. Nobody truly knows which is better, and I don't think comparing who sells more after the debut is a good way of comparing that either. When the iphone came out, everyone went gaga for it and bought one. The Pre's launch won't be as impressive in terms of numbers simply because the iphone was bought up by so many.
Palm seems to be doing things the right way but I could be wrong. Either way, Apple is lifting the vale (so to speak) on some artificial features in an effort to compete with the Pre. It's just business, nothing more.
1) You are much more likely to have your conversation dropped or paused form a lack of priority-based QoS voice routing with VoIP on a handheld trying to traverse different cellular data network and open and closed WiFi hotspots while traveling.
Well for one, you completely missed the point I was making. The point I was making, which has been a constant complaint among the iPhone customer base, is that Phone will interrupt and disconnect a Skype call. That's because Phone will interrupt and stop any application that does not get out of the way within 5 seconds of the call coming in. If VOIP apps worked through the Phone app, this would no longer be a problem.
But to address this new point, the opposite is also true. I have had numerous calls dropped in my house when using CDMA, less using GSM, and zero on Skype. Skype is an excellent replacement for a landline more than it is a replacement for a cell phone. Different needs, different capabilities. If the iPhone supported both cleanly, as many other phones do, its utility would improve tremendously.
As I noted earlier, numerous carriers already offer a solution exactly like using handsets that support it. Examples include AT&T's "Unstrung" and Fido's "UNO". These use UMA as the data haul, but are technically identical to what I am proposing here. In other cases, like the Nokia 60 series, they use SIP as the data haul, and again, it remains otherwise identical.
So lots of other companies are already doing this perfectly fine. But apparently in this case you think it's a ridiculous concept. Perhaps you believe Apple's programmer's simple aren't as good as Nokia's, but I believe the opposite is the case.
But you don't want that, you want any and all VoIP app to hijack the phone app and integrate with it, yet you somehow think this will make the app more stable. That is what befuddles me.
I said nothing of the sort. I said it would make the user experience better, not the stability. I believe it will have absolutely no effect whatsoever on stability, especially if Apple programmers are as good as I suspect.
As an example, you wouldn't have to "integrate" with the Contacts, you would actually use contacts. That would improve the user experience. Having the Phone app stop cutting you off in the middle of a Skype call would also improve the user experience. As would being able to make an outbound call on the carrier of my choice with the press of a button. And remaining logged in for inbound calls even when the Skype app isn't running, that would be downright fantastic.
You are proposing that a VoIP app takes over my iPhone's phone app. This VoIP app will then dicate what kind of call I should be making.
I said nothing of the sort. I said you choose the type of call you should be making.
So if it sees a Linksys WiFi hotspot... [rest of silly example removed].
Apple's system for selecting hot-spots is brain-dead, I agree. I hear they are improving it in 3.0.
However, as you can see in the posts above, I clearly proposed having a list of hot-spots that you would use to default to having your VOIP app "on". On other hotspots the default behavior would be to not use VOIP, and use GSM instead. In any case, the user could easily override their defaults, which they selected, simply by holding down the Call button and selecting which carrier to use.
There are lots of phones on the market that do this. AT&T sells a bunch. They all work perfectly. I'm sure an Apple version would work even better.
The point of a phone is to have a phone to use when you need it. VoIP is great for saving a few dimes, specially for international calls, but they aren't a good replacement to auto-detect the best network on a mobile.
Skype is the #1 long distance exchange in the world. Apparently there are some people that disagree with your assessment of it's abilities. So do all the carriers that sell UMA handsets.
Sorry, it's pretty clear to me that your simply unfamiliar with the way these products work. Perhaps you would take the time to go read the wikipedia article on UMA and SIP and then come back with a more informed opinion.
Maury
We could find dozens of links about this. Let's see what happens now:
http://mashable.com/2009/02/03/skype-version-4/
Because they're lazy? Because they enjoy making their buyers look like fools? Because they're crazy?
Really, what's the motivation being ascribed to Apple here, beyond reflexive internet douch-baggery?
Can anyone explain to me why Apple would "deliberately" withhold a feature like copy and paste, and only add it "to remain competitive"?
Because they're lazy? Because they enjoy making their buyers look like fools? Because they're crazy?
Really, what's the motivation being ascribed to Apple here, beyond reflexive internet douch-baggery?
There will always be people who like to complain about something. They love conspiracy theories, because it makes them feel better when things don't go their way.
If they want something and it isn't available, there must be some nefarious reason.
Think of it this way, I invent a phone that does everything everyone ever wanted, I mean EVERYTHING. Would people buy new versions down the line? No, the phone they have has everything they want already.
Apple dangles bits and pieces in front of you a little at a time like a dirt farmer dangling a carrot in front of a mule.
"Well, I WAS going to get the Pre, but Apple is finally giving me these new features. I guess I'll stay AND RENEW MY TWO YEAR CONTRACT."
It isn't coincidence that these features come out just as a lot of user's two year contracts are coming to an end? LOL.
Yeah that's what it is guys. It's douche baggery. I mean, it's not like your phones can record video right? There's no such thing as artificial limitations!
Think of it this way, I invent a phone that does everything everyone ever wanted, I mean EVERYTHING. Would people buy new versions down the line? No, the phone they have has everything they want already.
Apple dangles bits and pieces in front of you a little at a time like a dirt farmer dangling a carrot in front of a mule.
"Well, I WAS going to get the Pre, but Apple is finally giving me these new features. I guess I'll stay AND RENEW MY TWO YEAR CONTRACT."
It isn't coincidence that these features come out just as a lot of user's two year contracts are coming to an end? LOL.
You've had it explained to you, in detail, what kind of software development and what kind of timeframe for same is involved in developing new features, and how the said timeframe pretty much precludes Apple including such features as a response to the Pre. But you persist in your little fantasy, despite that fact that it makes no rational sense. So, douchebaggery? Looks that way to me.
Please read the John Gruber article I linked to, and try to wrap your head around the idea that Apple is being very conservative in building the foundations of a platform that they expect to deploy across multiple devices for years to come.
A carefully designed platform-- the SDK, the API, the UI, the frameworks-- is what permits adding features that work well down the line. Apple very obviously focused on getting the fundamentals right, and expects it to pay off going forward. I expect they're right.
So it's really hard for you to sit down with a phone and find things you don't like about it? That's all I'm saying. Common sense. For fucks sake man.
That has nothing to do with common sense, that's a subjective choice.
Stop making excuses for them. They called the phone a smart phone but copy and paste is an essential feature in document editing. It's something that could have been done long ago, and is just now being released in order to stay competitive.
I've never seen an official definition for a smartphone.
It's true Apple could have chosen to implement copy and paste sooner. I believe and many others believe Apple waited until they felt they had the proper implementation. You are free to believe Apple witheld it simply to annoy people. But it's an interesting conclusion coming from a supposedly unbiased perspective.
Making excuses for a company's greed is closed minded, blind, and screams Apple fanboism.
Apple is giving the OS updates to all iPhone users, where is the greed?
I accuse Apple of artificial limitations yes, but I do have a very good understanding why. It's YOU who refuses to understand why Apple kept those features off. Sure, other phones didn't have these features when they were launched, TEN YEARS AGO. You think Apple is that far behind everyone? No. It's so ironic you use other phones' development life cycles as examples when here comes the Pre, doing exactly what I'm talking about RIGHT OUT OF THE GATE. The Pre will have it right away, just another small feature that could lure iphone users to it, which is why apple is suddenly allowing copy and paste!
For the person whose true intent is to be objective, their would be room to see Apple's choices as compromises and taking time to properly develop a new platform.
The iPhone is new for Apple. As a software developer you should know that Apple has develop it's own platform. Apple cannot copy what MS, RIM, or Nokia has done. Yes Apple is starting from scratch with it's own mobile platform, it doesn't matter what someone else has done.
We still have to wait and see how well the Pre works. Simply because a feature is announced does not automatically mean it works well or is all that useful.
Palm seems to be doing things the right way but I could be wrong. Either way, Apple is lifting the vale (so to speak) on some artificial features in an effort to compete with the Pre. It's just business, nothing more.
So your thinking is that Apple is implementing features that it obviously began developing months ago before anyone outside of Palm knew the Pre existed. To explicitly compete with the a phone that is not yet on the market.
Yeah...that sounds logical.
Think of it this way, I invent a phone that does everything everyone ever wanted, I mean EVERYTHING. Would people buy new versions down the line? No, the phone they have has everything they want already.
Who has ever invented a phone like that? And if they did what guarantee is there that it would work well and that people would actually buy it?
"Well, I WAS going to get the Pre, but Apple is finally giving me these new features. I guess I'll stay AND RENEW MY TWO YEAR CONTRACT."
I doubt they need for you to go out of your way and inconvenience yourself to do them any favors.
It isn't coincidence that these features come out just as a lot of user's two year contracts are coming to an end? LOL.
The Pre was announced in the second week in January, the iPhone OS 3.0 was announced March 17th. You think Apple suddenly developed and added new features in that two month gap? Software developer.........
here's an idea I want you to dwell on for a second: People's 2 year contracts are going to start expiring. Apple knew if there was a contender, the release date would be chosen for around this time. They PLANNED the 3.0 update around this time on purpose. To keep people from leaving to another phone. Suddenly the phone can do all these things the customers have been demanding for the past 2 years?
And I use the Pre as an example because it's the contender that stepped up. Apple might not have known who was going to step up so boldly, but they knew someone would, and it's obvious it's got them scared shitless.
I doubt they need for you to go out of your way and inconvenience yourself to do them any favors.
Oh wow LOL. You thought I was talking about little ol me? And not thousands upon thousands of customers who's 2 year contracts are expiring? Too funny.
I'm done with this discussion. As I stated before, it's just a bunch of arrogant narrow viewed fanboys making excuses for their master. Hilarious
While third-party apps are being trumpeted as the iPhone's strength
Apple should not allow third parties to create native iPhone applications. Nobody cares about third party iPhone applications. Web apps are really SWEET.
Well for one, you completely missed the point I was making. The point I was making, which has been a constant complaint among the iPhone customer base, is that Phone will interrupt and disconnect a Skype call. That's because Phone will interrupt and stop any application that does not get out of the way within 5 seconds of the call coming in.
Maury
Why the obsession with Skype?
I find them to be more expensive than my other VOIP provider (which the Skype App won't let me use) for International calls to phones and more expensive than my phone provider for local calls (any phone in Australia).
I let my wife use Skype on my iPhone so she can make Skype to Skype calls to her relatives, if a call comes in for me, her call is interrupted and she can resume it later.
This is a good thing.
Since I found out that I can hotswap SIM's on my officially unlocked iPhone I no longer carry my N82 (which had all those useless [to me] features you keep whining about), instead I carry my other SIM and a paperclip in my wallet.
Don't presume that you know people's needs better than they themselves do.
wow everything you just said in those two posts was completely mindless. You should be ashamed of yourself.
here's an idea I want you to dwell on for a second: People's 2 year contracts are going to start expiring. Apple knew if there was a contender, the release date would be chosen for around this time. They PLANNED the 3.0 update around this time on purpose. To keep people from leaving to another phone. Suddenly the phone can do all these things the customers have been demanding for the past 2 years?
And I use the Pre as an example because it's the contender that stepped up. Apple might not have known who was going to step up so boldly, but they knew someone would, and it's obvious it's got them scared shitless.
Oh wow LOL. You thought I was talking about little ol me? And not thousands upon thousands of customers who's 2 year contracts are expiring? Too funny.
I'm done with this discussion. As I stated before, it's just a bunch of arrogant narrow viewed fanboys making excuses for their master. Hilarious
Oh noes.
Apple is working to improve the iPhone, and offering new models timed to increase sales and user retention. The conniving bastards! Decent companies make things with every possible feature and never update it, or time such updates to negatively impact sales, if possible.
And making the iPhone OS3 a free upgrade to all iPhone owners? What balls! Because....... well, I'm not sure how that fits my theory, but being Apple, it's got to be some kind of bullshit.
That some serious business clairvoyance. You give Apple a lot more credit than I do.
here's an idea I want you to dwell on for a second: People's 2 year contracts are going to start expiring. Apple knew if there was a contender, the release date would be chosen for around this time. They PLANNED the 3.0 update around this time on purpose. To keep people from leaving to another phone. Suddenly the phone can do all these things the customers have been demanding for the past 2 years?
Sorry, it's pretty clear to me that your simply unfamiliar with the way these products work. Perhaps you would take the time to go read the wikipedia article on UMA and SIP and then come back with a more informed opinion.
I had a Cisco CCIE Voice cert and have had a Skype In number for nearly 3 years now, so I think I may a little bit of knowledge and experience about the tech.
For this to make logical sense means. Two years ago when Apple launched the original iPhone in June, which subsequently set new iPhone launches in June. This means Apple purposefully set new iPhone launches in June because they knew the iPhone was going to dominate the smartphone market and that two years later someone would successfully launch a competing phone in June. So in 2007 Apple knew that by summer 2009 they would have to add copy/cut/paste, MMS, and tethering to head off the contender to the throne the iPhone had yet to hold.
That some serious business clairvoyance. You give Apple a lot more credit than I do.
Yes exactly! You understand what I'm saying. A company being ran with people as smart as those at Apple don't release a phone as awesome as the iphone without knowing what kind of impact it would have (in terms of other companies waking up and trying to contend with BETTER products.) There was nothing as cool as the iphone when it came out. They got a TON of 2 year sign up's for AT&T. In 2 years, a company can make a decent phone to contend with them. I mean, they pushed out the samsung instinct in like 6 weeks, and even though it was a big piece of junk for most, it still sold pretty good for Sprint (it really is a piece of shit though, and I laugh whenever anyone tries to say it's an iphone killer.)
I don't think the guys at Apple are so dumb that they thought they wouldn't have something to contend with around this time. I mean, it was one thing when the Instinct came out, but now the Pre is coming out just as customers will be considering leaving AT&T.
Even though you don't think video recording is important, it's still something the iphone is capable of, and something Apple should give their customers (even if it's just the kids demanding it.) It's an artificial limitation.
All I'm saying is, they should have given you guys things like mms, tethering, and copy and paste as soon as they were ready (which I think was long ago!) And I think it's REALLY gay for people to make excuses for them.
What I like most about the iphone and Apple is how it made other companies work harder. You guys like your iphones, you like Apple, I don't, thanks for the discussion
Even though you don't think video recording is important, it's still something the iphone is capable of, and something Apple should give their customers (even if it's just the kids demanding it.) It's an artificial limitation.
It's not an artificial limitation.
And yes I am well aware there are some crappy shareware recorders for the iPhone which can grab a few seconds of wobbly motion.
1) The iPhone (1st gen and Second gen (3G) hardware has a pretty crappy camera chip which takes about a 1/10s to pull the data off it.
Not only does this mean you struggle to get more than 8 or 9 frames per second. But the top of the frame is a whole tenth of a second in front of the bottom. For capturing motion this "rolling shutter" is extremely sucky. Any action is reduced to jello like motion.
In short, any captured video footage looks doubly shitty. And Apple has an allergy to shitty features. Better leave the feature out.
2) There's no hardware to compress the video to a small size. The shareware apps ignore this and simply fill the iPhone with data - till it runs out. To compress a movie down to a nice H264 would take the iPhone's processor about 3 minutes and the CPU would start to melt the case by the time it had finished.
3) If people had the option of video recording, suddenly they'd want to mail the movie to their buddies as an email attachment. And while Apple might be cool with this - the carriers would whine bitterly about people UPLOADING 10MB attachments.
The decision to leave out video was not mean-spirited, or crooked. It was just smart. Let's leave out this feature until some point in the future when we can do it properly. The market didn't seem to mind the omission too much.
The next iPhone rev will probably have a decent imaging chip, a hardware encoder and .., who knows ... the phone network might be able to cope with video attachments.
C.